Paleo Diet: Raw Paleo Diet and Lifestyle Forum
Raw Paleo Diet Forums => Hot Topics => Topic started by: Ioanna on April 18, 2009, 11:26:29 pm
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What are your thoughts on pemmican as a food? Has anyone tried it/testimony to its digestibility and effectiveness? If the meat is dehydrated at low temp would you consider that raw still?
I'm sure you already know, but a family on another forum claims to eat only pemmican (seemingly raw, ie. care taken to keep fat rendering and meat dehydrating below 100 degrees) with wonderful results including reclaimed health.
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What are your thoughts on pemmican as a food? Has anyone tried it/testimony to its digestibility and effectiveness? If the meat is dehydrated at low temp would you consider that raw still?
I'm sure you already know, but a family on another forum claims to eat only pemmican (seemingly raw, ie. care taken to keep fat rendering and meat dehydrating below 100 degrees) with wonderful results including reclaimed health.
I'm amazed that anyone can claim to eat pemmican at a genuinely raw temperature! Our resident pemmican expert, Lex Rooker, claims that pemmican just doesn't last anywhere near long enough unless it's heated to 100 degrees Centigrade or higher(230 degrees fahrenheit, I think?)!
For all intents and purposes, pemmican, IMO, is a last-resort food to be used only when travelling by RAFers, when genuinely raw, 100% grassfed meat is unavailable. As soon as one processes a food, whether by heat or whatever, one is reducing the suitability/digestibility of the food, so it's unwise to depend on pemmican in the long-term, IMO. After all, even the Eskimoes, let alone our Palaeo ancestors, didn't depend on pemmican alone during their lifetimes.And even wild animals don't depend on just meat/fat as they go for the organ-meats first etc.
Another issue:- Most pemmican-users admit it tastes like sawdust!
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I'm amazed that anyone can claim to eat pemmican at a genuinely raw temperature! Our resident pemmican expert, Lex Rooker, claims that pemmican just doesn't last anywhere near long enough unless it's heated to 100 degrees Centigrade or higher(230 degrees fahrenheit, I think?)!
For all intents and purposes, pemmican, IMO, is a last-resort food to be used only when travelling by RAFers, when genuinely raw, 100% grassfed meat is unavailable. As soon as one processes a food, whether by heat or whatever, one is reducing the suitability/digestibility of the food, so it's unwise to depend on pemmican in the long-term, IMO. After all, even the Eskimoes, let alone our Palaeo ancestors, didn't depend on pemmican alone during their lifetimes.And even wild animals don't depend on just meat/fat as they go for the organ-meats first etc.
Another issue:- Most pemmican-users admit it tastes like sawdust!
No need to heat at high temperature if one eats pemmican without waiting several days. But it takes more time to dry the meat and melt the fat at low temperature.
With my porr digestive ability, I find pemmican much more digestible than plain raw meat, especially the fat. Processing is not always bad (think of sprouting, fermenting, etc.)
One can also make pemmican with organ.
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As one would expect pemmican makes me feel less good than raw meat, but nowhere near as bad as most cooked foods (meats even) make me feel.
And yes, I would consider the muscle part raw as long as it's dehydrated at a low temperature and then when combined with the rendered fat the fat is not hot enough to fry it.
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I am attracted to the convenience of it, especially for travel. I just want to be healthy, so I don't care what it tastes like... sawdust?, lol. I just worry that I would gain weight with all that fat as I did on the non-pemmican red meat version of 80/20 non-carb way of eating.
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What are your thoughts on pemmican as a food? Has anyone tried it/testimony to its digestibility and effectiveness? If the meat is dehydrated at low temp would you consider that raw still?
I find it a very acceptable food. I mostly eat it when traveling or away from home for a day or two and not as my primary diet. There is some concern that it really isn't "raw paleo" because the fat is rendered at a relatively high temperature, but the truth is, I must live and function in the modern world and that requires some reasonable compromises. I find pemmican a far better option than fast food fare from McDonalds, Burger King, Denny's, and 99.9% of the muck on supermarket shelves.
I find pemmican just as digestable as my normal raw meat. My experience is rather pointless however, as I've been eating this way for a long time and if you are just transitioning to paleo or zero carb, your experience will probably be much different from mine. If you are having problems with the transition to eating primarily meat and fat (either raw or cooked), don't expect any magic from trying pemmican. Those on this forum with a good bit of experience will tell you that everyone pays their dues.
I'm sure you already know, but a family on another forum claims to eat only pemmican (seemingly raw, ie. care taken to keep fat rendering and meat dehydrating below 100 degrees) with wonderful results including reclaimed health.
The claim that they are rendering fat at or below 104F is pure nonsense. If you were to order pure rendered beef tallow from US Wellness Meats (where we've been assured that the owner says he always renders his fat at 104F or below), you find that it won't even melt at this temperature. Since rendering is a process of melting the fat out of the cellular structure and driving off the water, you can easily see it would be totally impossible. There has also been some mention that the beef tallow ordered from US Wellness often has a "burnt" oder to it, and we are told that the remedy for this is to let the completed pemmican age in the open air until the burnt smell goes away - this observation and remedy come from the family that says they live on "raw" pemmican. How could you possibly get a burnt smell from something that never went over the temperature of lukewarm water.
Another issue with rendering at low temperatures is the fact that the various fatty acids melt at different temperatures. I believe that I read a post from a person in the know that stated that the most saturated fatty acids won't melt below 125F, and that it would require a temperature of at least 170F to have any chance of extracting the majority of the fatty acids from the cellular structure of the fat. This means that any fat rendered below this temperature would not have the full spectrum of fatty acids and could cause nutritional deficiencies in the long term. As I remember, he found little difference in the amount of damage done to the fatty acids as long as the temperature was kept at or below 250F. Since one of the major qualities of pemmican is the ability to keep it for long duration without refrigeration, and this requires that all water be driven from the rendered fat, it is most efficient to render the fat at a temperature slightly above the boiling point of water.
There is also much agonizing and handwringing over loss of enzymes. Many tests have been run by Bea Beyer on maintaining enzyme integrity and the truth is that there was substantially no difference in enzyme activity between things dehydrated at 104F and 125F. Things started to deteriorate rather rapidly once the temperature reached 130F for any length of time, but this also depended on the moisture content of the material. Fully dehydrated items had much less damage than soggy moist items, so the real killer is high temp in the presence of moisture.
Since the fat must be rendered at a temperature above 170F just to maintain the complete fatty acid profile, this means that there is no way to keep the enzymes intact. Infact, you don't want too, because active enzymes will cause the breakdown of the food in the presence of moisture and oxygen and this would destroy the keeping and nutritional qualities of the pemmican.
The lean meat is a different story. Here we want to maintain as many enzymes as possible to help with digestion. To achieve this we want to dry our meat below 130F and I usually try to keep my highest temperature at or below 120 just to be safe. We protect the nutrition and enzymes from degrading over time by shredding the meat and then encasing the meat fibers in the rendered fat to keep out moisture and oxygen. If we intend to keep the pemmican for more than a couple of weeks, it is also best to protect it from light, as light is an energy source and will break molecular bonds over time. You see the result of this in the fading of colors in fabrics, photographs, and artwork etc.
Each element of pemmican is important and must be properly prepared for maximum nutrition and storage life. The lean dry meat supplies the vitamins, minerals, protein, and enzymes necessary to good health and must be dehydrated at a temperature below 130F. The fat carries the calories our bodies need for fuel and serves to coat and protect the lean meat from damage by oxygen and moisture and should be rendered at a temperature above the boiling point of water but below 250F. Traditional pemmican was stored in hide bags that protected it from damage from light, and that completes the total package.
Making and storing pemmican in this way has proven itself over many centuries. To believe that we will somehow significantly improve on this process without employing modern technology such as freeze drying or other bit of high tech magic is wasted effort as far as I'm concerned.
This is probably far more than you ever wanted to know, but others on this forum may have similar questions and concerns.
Lex
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Pemmican is tasty because the meat is concentrated. The texture is like sawdust!
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I always dry the meat at 95°F, does not matter to me that it takes a day or even two days longer, so I'm satisfied that the important nutrients are truly raw.
Recently got some back fat, and the pemmican made from that tallow tastes better than the stuff I was making with tallow from kidney fat.
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This is probably far more than you ever wanted to know, but others on this forum may have similar questions and concerns.
Not at all, I love reading this stuff and greatly appreciate your patience and thorough response!! Thank you!!
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Has anyone every tried pemmican with organ meat? it was mentioned above, but i wonder if anyone could share any experiences, and of any success or failure!
Also thank you Lex for such an informative post! Now i have everything i need to make some good stuff!
D
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i haven't actually made pemmican with organ meats, but i plan on doing it pretty soon (well a mix of dried organs like heart and liver with dried jerky). i'll let you know how it goes. also, i've dried liver before and it actually worked out pretty well. it made it taste better and made it a lot easier to eat. need to get some heart now though
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...This is probably far more than you ever wanted to know, but others on this forum may have similar questions and concerns.
Lex
Wow! After this and Lex's other posts and his pemmican guide, I think Lex may have demonstrated himself to be the world's foremost pemmican expert. :-)
I tried US Wellness' tallow alone and with meat some more, Lex, and it's not as strong-flavored as I initially thought (and I'm also rapidly getting used to it). I'm back to thinking that the very strong flavor of their pemmican comes from both the fat and the jerky. I made my second attempt at making jerky and fared much better this time. It tasted better even than yours did, but I think that's likely due my using less fat (I haven't completely adapted to eating tallow yet) and to my taste buds adapting more since I ate yours than anything. What I did differently:
> I made sure to THOROUGHLY dry the jerky, so that it breaks when twisted (that detail helped explain the required level of dryness a lot)
> I THOROUGHLY blenderized the jerky into very fine, tiny shreds (the blender is too weak to turn it into powder)
> I added the fat gradually, and stopped as soon as the pemmican reached an eye-appealing, juicy, brownie-like consistency (less fat than is generally recommended--again, because I haven't adapted completely to it yet)
I think the gradual adaptation approach has worked for me, and may work for other people who don't like grass-fed tallow at first. Even though I didn't like pemmican at first, it didn't taste powdery at all to me--it was more of a problem of a musky, beefy, gamey flavor and smell for me. I like gamey, but wasn't used to THAT strong a gamey taste. Adding the fat takes away any powderiness from the shredded jerky. The first time I tried US Wellness pemmican I nearly upchucked it back up and couldn't imagine how I'd ever get used to it. Now I sorta like my home-made pemmican. I wonder what the US Wellness would taste like to me now. Maybe I was too hard on them, or maybe mine really is that much better tasting--I'm not sure. I have adapted much faster than I expected.
The only animal fat I was initially able to eat raw is the creamy long-bone marrow fat, so pemmican fills an important transitional niche for me. I can also now handle the flavor and mouth feel of a little cold tallow (it was a huge turn-off at first--it's strange how the film it left in my mouth was at first disgusting and now is neutral--almost pleasant). Maybe some day I'll be able to eat raw suet and intramuscular fat, but I still gag on it at this point and have a little trouble digesting it. As with DelFuego, pemmican seems more digestible for me at this stage.
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> I made sure to THOROUGHLY dry the jerky, so that it breaks when twisted (that detail helped explain the required level of dryness a lot)
Maybe some day I'll be able to eat raw suet and intramuscular fat, but I still gag on it at this point and have a little trouble digesting it. As with DelFuego, pemmican seems more digestible for me at this stage.
Agreed, thoroughly dried is the way.
I still wonder about the taste of the tallow, but then all I can get is grain-finished fat, and the hide fat tastes better to me than the kidney fat.
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I have noticed that eating pemmican makes my teeth over-sensitive. To the point that drinking water (or breathing fresh air) hurts my teeth.
Anybody has experienced the same symptom, or have an idea of the reason (overproduction of HCL) ?
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For those who have not read it elsewhere, the word is that the correct ratio of weight of tallow to powdered jerky is 64% to 36%.
This gives us the recommended 80% calories from fat, and more (or adequate) energy.
Lack of energy has been a problem for me with the half-of-each pemmican.
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I know coconut oil is looked down on here because the inferiority in nutrition of vegetable derived fat, but I'm thinking of trying it. The reason being is that it doesn't have to be heated. I'm very leary about rendering tallow. I'm thinking of making a pemmican by drying liver and mixing with the oil. I suppose it would be too soft in Summer but a fairly decent once in a while snack in Wintertime.
I want to thank everyone who wrote about their pemmican experiences. I've never tried it, and reading everything you wrote is helping me decide to try.
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I know coconut oil is looked down on here because the inferiority in nutrition of vegetable derived fat, but I'm thinking of trying it. The reason being is that it doesn't have to be heated.
You will regret it. Malnutrition is certain with coconut oil.
Pemmican made with tallow is proven good, and the endless drivel of fat-phobic Tyler/Geoff is best ignored.
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coconut oil has already been heated by the time you buy it
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For those who have not read it elsewhere, the word is that the correct ratio of weight of tallow to powdered jerky is 64% to 36%.
This gives us the recommended 80% calories from fat, and more (or adequate) energy.
Lack of energy has been a problem for me with the half-of-each pemmican.
William,
What makes 64/36 any more "correct" than 50/50- or 45/65 for that matter? Many of us find that 80% of calories is way to much and we do much better on 65% to 75% of calories as fat. To think that there is some magic "correct" ratio of fat to lean is silly. The Native Americans who made pemmican didn't have scales and other high tech stuff to achieve some perfect ratio. They mixed the fat into the powdered lean until it wouldn't absorb any more. The actual ratio varied all over the place.
Also the natural fat content of raw meat varies considerably depending on the time of year and the amount of food available to the animal. In the late winter/early spring animals would have been very lean. In the late summer/early fall they would have had a high percentage of fat.
If it had to be so "scientific" none of us would be here today because our ancestors just ate meat and fat based on its availability until they were satified. If they were short fat then they would start to crave it. In other words, just like thirst, they let their bodies tell them what was correct.
The idea that 80% of calories as fat is somehow "perfect" is pure nonsense.
Lex
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I know coconut oil is looked down on here because the inferiority in nutrition of vegetable derived fat, but I'm thinking of trying it. The reason being is that it doesn't have to be heated. I'm very leery about rendering tallow. I'm thinking of making a pemmican by drying liver and mixing with the oil. I suppose it would be too soft in Summer but a fairly decent once in a while snack in Wintertime.
If you do this you will likely end up with severe nutritional deficiencies if you eat it for very long. Coconut oil is just that - oil. You need a highly saturated animal fat or you may as well just buy the 'nutrition bars' at your local supermarket - as there would be little difference. To believe that coconut oil isn't heated or processed using solvents, and that this some how makes a 'non-food' (something we shouldn't be eating at all under any conditions) better than a heated good food is being a bit naive.
Also, pure liver is powerful stuff. You can actually get ill eating just pure liver. Pemmican should be made primarily from muscle meats. Organ meats are not needed and should be kept to a very small percentage if they are used at all.
Lex
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William,
What makes 64/36 any more "correct" than 50/50- or 45/65 for that matter?
Lex
I ate it. All of it. Didn't think I would, because it tasted like tallow soup with mild jerky flavouring, but after it set I kept snacking on it. Odd, because I eat once/day.
This was made with the first and only grassfed beef fat->tallow acquired so far, maybe that's why it went down so well.
Anyway I trust my stomach more than theory, and I have more energy. YMMV, after all I'm older and sicker than anyone else here. AFAIK.
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I ate it. All of it. Didn't think I would, because it tasted like tallow soup with mild jerky flavouring, but after it set I kept snacking on it. Odd, because I eat once/day.
This was made with the first and only grassfed beef fat->tallow acquired so far, maybe that's why it went down so well.
Anyway I trust my stomach more than theory, and I have more energy. YMMV, after all I'm older and sicker than anyone else here. AFAIK.
William,
Because you made your pemmican a certain way and they ate it doesn't make is some magical combination. I've been making and eating pemmican for many years with ratios of fat to lean that vary from 75/25 (almost a fat soup when warm) to 35/65 (rather dry and crumbly and probably would not keep well). All are quite edible. Jerky, which has very little fat is quite digestible as well and serves its own purpose.
Again, there is no correct ratio of fat to lean other than for the fat to fully soak into and coat all the lean to protect if from mositure and and oxygen. If you like 64/36 then by all means make it that way, but that ratio is no more correct than 50/50 or any other ratio for that matter. There is nothing magic about 50/50 either. 50/50 is convienent, easy to remember, and provides plenty of energy and so that is why I use this formula in my manual. It is a good place to start and people are free to vary the ratio (as you have) to their own liking.
Lex
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I was thinking, my cold pressed VCO must be heated because it never goes off. Tastes revolting and makes me really ill and has been sitting on my shelf for at least a year.
I've eaten huge amounts of liver in the past. Didn't get really ill though, my body just stopped absorbing it and it started to just go straight through me.
I recently ate pemmican exclusively for 3 days...didn't feel that great! I over ate, I'm guessing because it was so tasty my brain didn't know when to stop like it does with raw. On the third day all I could think about was going back to raw again which I did on day 4.
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I found that when I ate a substantial amount of coconut oil it also made me nauseous and gave me a feeling of malaise so that I had to lie down for a while. Since then, even small amounts of coconut oil make me nauseous, so I've given up on it. It also never tasted all that great to me for some reason, even though I like the taste of coconut flesh and water. Too much coconut milk also makes me sick, so there's something about coconut fat that apparently is hard for me to digest. No amount of tallow or pemmican has affected me negatively yet and the more I eat of it the more I like the taste and mouth feel (which is what Admiral Peary reported), despite having found it to be disgusting at first.
I find it unusual that the saturated fat from coconuts should be hard for me to digest while the saturated fat from animals is not. I've seen articles claiming that they are very similar in chemical composition. Any thoughts on this?
I agree with Lex that jerky is very digestible (at least for me), and it's great for cleaning teeth, though I find it less satisfying now that I'm hooked on pemmican and higher fat meats. I still do prefer lean meats when eating raw, undried meats, though. It's taking me longer to get used to eating raw, unrendered fat, though I'm hoping that by eating pemmican and melted or cooked animal fat that I'll eventually get used to raw, unprocessed animal fat.
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I recently ate pemmican exclusively for 3 days...didn't feel that great! I over ate, I'm guessing because it was so tasty my brain didn't know when to stop like it does with raw. On the third day all I could think about was going back to raw again which I did on day 4.
Must be different than mine, the taste grew on me, but I would not call it tasty. Is the meat still raw?
Surprising that you didn't know when to stop, the fat makes it soon satisfying for me.
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Lex, maybe there is magic in the 80% fat thing.
See this thread in the paleofood archives, "Re: Was Pemmican cure, Now Protein to Fat Ratio":
http://tiny.cc/IY4Fk
My memory may be erratic, but it works. Sometimes.
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Lex, maybe there is magic in the 80% fat thing.
See this thread in the paleofood archives, "Re: Was Pemmican cure, Now Protein to Fat Ratio":
http://tiny.cc/IY4Fk
My memory may be erratic, but it works. Sometimes.
I never said we didn't need enough fat - only that there was nothing magic about 80% calories from fat and that many of us do better on less. I still stand by this. Even the formula for "proper" pemmican given in the thread you linked is 50/50 which is not 80% calories from fat. The thread also indicated that eating would become instinctive and you would automatically eat the amount of fat and protein your body wants each day. Our paleo ancestors did fine without worrying over grams protein per kilogram of body weight. They just ate their meat and fat until they were satified and then lived their lives to the best of their ability. Why we insist on making something as natural as eating so complicated as to need a calculator is beyond me. I no longer worry about such nonsense. I just eat meat and fat until I'm satisfied and let my hunger dictate proportions. 50/50 pemmican has also never failed to fully satisfy my hunger so I find no need to try to achieve someone's silly notion of "perfection".
Remember, conventional wisdom states that carbohydates are the 'perfect' foods for us and there are many studies that "prove" this. My personal experience has demonstrated otherwise for me. The same goes for the conventional wisdom of 80% calories from fat being 'perfect'. My personal experinece has demonstrated otherwise for me (and many others I might add).
When I was young and stupid, (the difference today is that I'm no longer young), I'd follow the studies or the advice of the gurus even when it clearly wasn't working, because it was the RIGHT thing to do - the studies said so. Today I'm far more concerned with what works than what the studies show or gurus say.
Lex
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Today I'm far more concerned with what works than what the studies show or gurus say.
Lex
Me too. That's why I tried the higher proportion of fat, and so far so good.
I agree that it isn't written in stone, so the right proportion might change depending on the state of one's biochemistry.
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Must be different than mine, the taste grew on me, but I would not call it tasty. Is the meat still raw?
Surprising that you didn't know when to stop, the fat makes it soon satisfying for me.
Raw dried kangaroo. I don't seem to hit the point where I don't want any more and just keep eating and eat a lot more than if it was raw and don't feel as good afterwards.
Handy snack if traveling but prefer raw as a staple.
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/my bad
I forgot the most important point on reviewing the paleofood thread, to wit: according to Phinney and Rosedale if protein >1.45g±0.25/kg we experience something called gluconeogenesis, this means we are still burning sugar instead of fat for fuel, and "One concern with higher
levels of protein intake is the suppression of ketogenesis relative
to an equi-caloric amount of fat (assuming that ketones are a
beneficial adaptation to whole body fuel homeostasis)".
This explains why I feel better with a higher proportion of tallow in my pemmican.
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This explains why I feel better with a higher proportion of tallow in my pemmican.
Maybe, and then again maybe not. If only the explanation were as simple and straight forward as eating.....
Thankfully our bodies do just fine in spite of our meddling.
Lex
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"When you eat more protein than your body needs to replace and repair body parts, excess protein is largely converted into glucose and burned as fuel. It turns you into a sugar maker and sugar burner! This is not desirable or healthy."
Looks simple to me, and fits with experience.
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"When you eat more protein than your body needs to replace and repair body parts, excess protein is largely converted into glucose and burned as fuel. It turns you into a sugar maker and sugar burner! This is not desirable or healthy."
Looks simple to me, and fits with experience.
I think that upon close examination, you'll find that somewhere around 58% of ALL protein eaten is conveted into glucose. The rate of conversion seems to depend on the source of the protein. Plant proteins convert at a different rate than animal protiens. This has brought me to the conclusion (which could be wrong) that certain amino acids are converted and others are not. Plant proteins have a significantly different amino acid profile than animal proteins and this would account for the different conversion rates.
There are also body systems that require glucose. If you don't provide a diet dietary source, then the body will shred muscle and other lean tissue to create it. Glucose is not a bad thing. Excessive glucose is. Even if you eat lots of protein, you'll find that your BG curve rises slowly and seldom elevates more than 25 to 30 points after eating a meal. Eating any significant amount of carbs at a meal will often cause BG to rapidly shoot up 100 points or more causing an massive insulin reaction.
In my experience eating too much food is far more an issue than the fat/protein ratio of the food. I was surprised to find that overindulgence in fat would also cause BG to rise, and kept fasting levels of BG 10 to 15 points higher throughout the day than lower fat higher protein meals. Many others have found this to be true for them as well.
The easiest way to keep BG low is to eat a diet very low in carbs, and then eat just enough food to satisfy your body's needs. Any more than that will cause fasting BG levels to rise and you will slowly accumulate body fat. Wish it weren't so, but that is my experinece.
Lex
Lex
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Lex, in the first part of your journal you reduced bg by increasing percentage of fat to 80. That's what I am trying to do.
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Lex, in the first part of your journal you reduced bg by increasing percentage of fat to 80. That's what I am trying to do.
You will find that you must also decrease food intake for this to happen. I found I had to decrease intake from 850 grams to around 650 grams to reduce BG over the long term.
Whenever you make a change you will find that BG, Ketones, etc may rise or fall for the first few weeks and then will ultimately stabilize at some level. It can take months to fully stailize and the final stable level may be much higher (or lower) than the initial change. This is why when I do an experiment I commit to the change for 4 to 6 months to let my body adapt a reveal the long term effects.
Just as I appeared to lose weight when I first made the change to high fat, over the months I began to gain weight. If I'd only done the experiment for 30 or 60 days, I would never have seen the weight gain and would have believed that a very high fat diet would cause weight loss.
In your case you may find that BG falls for a few weeks but then will slowly rise again and stabilize near the level you had before you increased your fat intake - especially if you keep your food intake at the previous level. They say that when eating ZC calories don't count and that may be true, but my experience as well as the experience of many other long time ZCer's has clearly demonstrated that something counts. We've learned that if we over eat, BG rises and we gain weight - not as much or as rapidly as when eating carbs, but we do gain none the less. Also we've learned that the ratio of fat to lean is less important than the amount we eat in controlling both BG and weight.
Lex
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Thank you Lex. I make my own coconut oil. I don't use any external chemical solvents. The only ingredient I use is coconut juice cream that I make quickly myself. I didn't mean to eat it every day. Maybe if I was camping I would, but I like fresh food, so I say no way to the often. I like liver a lot. I know I dislike dried muscle meat. Maybe pemmican really isn't for me. I may still try. I'll let you guys know when I do.
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I thought pemmican could be such a great food for me the convenience of travel and social eating.
My recent observation is that the dehydrated lean causes much intestinal upset. The fat I use is not rendered, it's just mushed fat that had been warmed at 85 degrees for a few hours. I have been eating my fat like this for a several months now. I'm sure it's the lean, despite being technically 'raw'. The same lean in non-dehydrated form would be perfectly tolerable too. Is this strange? At least I know what I can/can't handle.
My dog now has some really awesome treats!
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I thought pemmican could be such a great food for me the convenience of travel and social eating.
My recent observation is that the dehydrated lean causes much intestinal upset. The fat I use is not rendered, it's just mushed fat that had been warmed at 85 degrees for a few hours. I have been eating my fat like this for a several months now. I'm sure it's the lean, despite being technically 'raw'. The same lean in non-dehydrated form would be perfectly tolerable too. Is this strange? At least I know what I can/can't handle.
My dog now has some really awesome treats!
Was the meat grass or grainfed Ioanna?
When I began catching on to my digestive issues with grainfed it was through the raw jerky I had made. After I caught on to the digestive problems with the jerky I started to pick up on the problems with raw grainfed (slight runny nose and sore throat, as well as some stomach rumblings not long after eating).
If I eat grassfed raw jerky alone it just makes me hungrier and I eventually get a slightly sour stomach if I eat a bunch without any fat. Pemmican sits great with the grassfed jerky as does a meal of jerky and fat cubes. :)
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was grass-fed, the same that I eat fresh with no problem.
i'm not sure i can tell a difference between grass-fed and grain-fed on my digestion... maybe the differences are too subtle for me to realize yet since my problems have been so disastrous? i eat grass-fed anyway though just because I believe it is healthier, I prefer to support local farmers, and I had been too desperate for health improvement and seeking a 'perfect' diet.
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couple questions,
ive never made Pemmican, or even know how to render fat for that matter, but i plan on making and using Pemmican as my main food source for about a six month expedition.
what is the best cut of meat to use?
what is the best fat to use?
can i cut in some Bone marrow in the process?
will dried berries facilitate spoilage?
i planned on buying some sort of foodsaver to package Pemmican in individual, airtight, serving size portions, seeing ill be living out of a backpack, i assume this will keep. i planned on preparing all the pemmican for the whole trip and storing it in my fathers freezer/fridge(?) and he will send a couple week supply to my 'current' locations. it will also be the dead of winter so i assume this will help keep the Pemmican from spoiling.
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The best cut of meat is the leanest.
The best fat is that on the back, just before the tail (loins). Some say that it is better to mix some kidney fat with this.
I don't know about marrow, but I would not expect it to keep as well.
I've never used dried berries, and will not. Best experiment first.
Pemmican keeps well in ziploc freezer bags for short term (less than a year) storage, and easier to carry than the Mason jars for long term. I have seen bugs that will eat holes and breed in these bags.
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what is the best cut of meat to use?
As William mentioned the leaner the better. You are drying the meat as thoroughly as possible and this is easier in a dehydrater with lean muscle as opposed to fat.
what is the best fat to use?
Suet fat will render into a stiffer base for the pemmican which will make it easier to eat IMO. It wouldn't hurt to add some hide fat though as it's more flavorful. If I was making a large batch to carry as you are I'd do a 50/50 fix.
can i cut in some Bone marrow in the process?
I wouldn't recommend it as it seems to melt at lower temps and has quite a bit of water & protein in it which you'll be working longer to render out.
will dried berries facilitate spoilage?
I've not personally tried it but I read a number of comments that it will spoil quicker which makes sense since it's so hard to get all the moisture out of the berries. If you are dead set on the berries as an extra energy source I'd recommend drying them and then sealing them in separate bags you carry with you.
i planned on buying some sort of foodsaver to package Pemmican in individual, airtight, serving size portions, seeing ill be living out of a backpack, i assume this will keep. i planned on preparing all the pemmican for the whole trip and storing it in my fathers freezer/fridge(?) and he will send a couple week supply to my 'current' locations. it will also be the dead of winter so i assume this will help keep the Pemmican from spoiling.
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The pemmican will keep perfectly fine this way. It's possibly even overkill, as properly prepared pemmican stores so well, but better to have the peace of mind that your food source is safe.
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I think it depends partly on personal tastes and what you are trying to do (such as whether you need long-term storage). I don't need long-term storage right now, so I like to use top round steak (it has a bit more fat and flavor than eye of round) for the beef and grassfed suet for the fat (and I don't heat the suet long enough or at high enough temps to get all the moisture out).
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What is everyone opinion on us wellness pemmican? Is it that much more expensive then to make your own. The convenience of not having to make it is attractive. thanks
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What is everyone opinion on us wellness pemmican? Is it that much more expensive then to make your own. The convenience of not having to make it is attractive. thanks
It seems expensive to me. I also like the transparency of making your own because you know the quality of what you put into it.
One last point to think about with the US Wellness pemmican; salt inhibits the storage ability and lowers the nutrition of the pemmican and US Wellness' pemmican is notorious for being overly salty. If you plan on using it as an emergency store, travel food, or main source of calories you might find it lacking FWIW.
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One last point to think about with the US Wellness pemmican; salt inhibits the storage ability and lowers the nutrition of the pemmican and US Wellness' pemmican is notorious for being overly salty. If you plan on using it as an emergency store, travel food, or main source of calories you might find it lacking FWIW.
I tried theirs. It wasn't salty, I didn't detect any. The one I got was without berries or honey. I only bought and tried one individual serving bar, and gave most of it to the cats. It was good, but they liked it too, and I didn't care. I felt fine after eating what I did, so I was surprised, as I didn't feel good after each of the couple times I tried jerky. I would try the pemmican again, and I think my family would freak if I dried meat in the dehydrator or allowed suet to melt, so it will probably be US Wellness if I try it again.
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I tried theirs. It wasn't salty, I didn't detect any. The one I got was without berries or honey. I only bought and tried one individual serving bar, and gave most of it to the cats. It was good, but they liked it too, and I didn't care. I felt fine after eating what I did, so I was surprised, as I didn't feel good after each of the couple times I tried jerky. I would try the pemmican again, and I think my family would freak if I dried meat in the dehydrator or allowed suet to melt, so it will probably be US Wellness if I try it again.
I haven't personally eaten US Wellness' pemmican but I've read a number of comments from posters on a couple boards that it used to be overtly salty for their tastes. Maybe it's different processed differently now or maybe it just falls down to personal mineral needs.
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I haven't personally eaten US Wellness' pemmican but I've read a number of comments from posters on a couple boards that it used to be overtly salty for their tastes.
They must have changed the recipes.
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This is it http://www.grasslandbeef.com/Detail.bok?no=1061 (http://www.grasslandbeef.com/Detail.bok?no=1061), US Wellness's pemmican that I tried. Their other varieties do both have salt. I don't understand why honey is added to one. Weren't honeybees first brought over by the Europeans after they colonized? I would think some ripe berries would be sweet. Maybe it's the preservative quality of honey they're looking for? Maybe maple was first used in it, or even agave and definitely not beef, anyway.
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This is it http://www.grasslandbeef.com/Detail.bok?no=1061 (http://www.grasslandbeef.com/Detail.bok?no=1061), US Wellness's pemmican that I tried. Their other varieties do both have salt. I don't understand why honey is added to one. Weren't honeybees first brought over by the Europeans after they colonized? I would think some ripe berries would be sweet. Maybe it's the preservative quality of honey they're looking for? Maybe maple was first used in it, or even agave and definitely not beef, anyway.
When Indians made if for the Hudsons Bay Co., they put dried blueberries in it because they thought white men could not live without carbohydrates. They didn't do that for themselves, just powdered dried meat and tallow.
It won't keep as long with carbs in.
US Wellness is just pandering to the carb addicts, and their pemmican does not last a long time - people report it goes bad if not refrigerated. Something to do with the low temp at which the fat is rendered.
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US Wellness is just pandering to the carb addicts, and their pemmican does not last a long time - people report it goes bad if not refrigerated. Something to do with the low temp at which the fat is rendered.
I've had extensive communications with John of US Wellness about the poor keeping qualities of their pemmican. John acknowledges the problem is caused by the fact that they don't completely dry the lean meat. It seems that their original product used fully dehydrated meat, but grinding the meat was slow and very hard on the processor's equipment (which was designed to grind raw fresh meat). The processor refused to contiune with fully dry meat so they came up with a compromise to just partially dehydrate the meat so that it was still easy to grind, and add salt as a preservative to help extend the shelf life, but the pemmican still spoils within 3 weeks or so unless kept frozen. They do offer a version without salt (driven by the folks on Charles' Zero Carb Forum), but since they still don't fully dehydrate the meat, it will spoil even faster without refrigeration or freezing.
US Wellness Pemmican, especially the unsalted version, is probably fine for hiking or a two week camping trip. It's just not suitable for long term storage without freezing like emergency rations.
Lex
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"grinding the meat was slow and very hard on the processor's equipment (which was designed to grind raw fresh meat)."
That's what I'm wondering about the meat grinders in general. They're made for soft meat, not hard dry meat. How does a straight stick of hard meat even fit into a grinder's corkscrew?
Is there a better machine to pulverize hard dry meat than standard meat grinders?
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The first time I made pemmican, I don't know why, but my grinder handled it well. I had a butcher at my grandfather's grocery store slice it up real thin for me, and I used my dehydrator. Next time I just dried some round steaks (which are relatively thin) and trying to grind that up dry broke my home grinder and nearly my grandfather's commercial one. Moral of my story being, cut your meat extremely thin before drying and it will probably not cause a problem. My grinder was <$200.
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I don't have experience with dedicated grinders but I've got a Vitamix Blender (http://www.vitamix.com/) and it's unstoppable with grinding the jerky into meat flour. ;)
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Are you using the vita mix dry blade or wet blade?
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Are you using the vita mix dry blade or wet blade?
The wet blade I guess. The stock one that came in it. It sounds like it's grinding rocks when you start it but it's holding up great.
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I use a Tasin 108, and wear shooting earmuffs while it's running; so far it is grinding jerky very well.
http://www.onestopjerkyshop.com/tasin-ts108-electric-meat-grinder-p-47.html
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Pemmican calculator, so we can get the desired proportion of fat:meat is at:
http://www.carnivorehealth.com/main/2009/9/2/pemmican-calculator-zioh-video.html