Paleo Diet: Raw Paleo Diet and Lifestyle Forum
Members' Journals => Journals => Topic started by: carnivore on July 15, 2009, 07:50:47 pm
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OK : I need to start writing a journal if I want to improve my health.
I began eating raw carnivorous 7 months ago, mainly raw beef and tallow and raw butter (because of a lack of beef fat). Sometimes pork, lamb and horse. I have already done a 4 months carnivorous experiment last year but I was forced to stop because of arrhythmia caused by an excess of fat intake.
Today, I suffer from these symptoms that are all related to an excess of food and maldigestion :
-High pulse (around 80pbm)
-Poor energy
-Cramps
-Abdominal pain when I press my stomach
-Flatulence
-Fugitive pain in my left thigh
-Blurred vision
My teeth are also very sensitive but it comes after taking some betain HCL (to try to improve my digestion). I think this should disappear with time.
My digestive ability is very weak : the meat should be very tender, ground or pulverised, and the fat should be melted, otherwise I don't digest them very well. Except for pork that I can digest more easily without “processing”.
I need to eat slowly, chew and insalivate well my food, in order to eat just what my body needs, to improve my digestion, and eliminate all the unpleasant symptoms.
I know it will require some discipline for me, but I don't see any other path...
Following Lex advices, I am going to weight my food intake, simply eat ground beef+tallow (or sometimes pemmican).
I am not yet ready to do one meal a day, so my idea is to eat approximately the same amount of food per day according to my hunger (starting with 500g ground beef and 100g tallow) , in 2 (or more) meals.
I am afraid to loose weight and starve! Let's see.
Next week, I won't have anymore grass-fed beef and fat until autumn. So I will buy some grain-fed beef. As for fat, I don't know what to choose between grain-fed fat (white) and raw organic butter (yellow) from pastured cow. I will probably follow my taste, and eat butter, that I will clarified at low temp.
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Following Lex advices, I am going to weight my food intake, simply eat ground beef+tallow (or sometimes pemmican).
Do I understand right - did Lex tell you to weigh your food intake? Thats not "simply" eating meat and fat to appetite!
Nicola
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Lex :
"Look carefully at how much fat you are eating. If it is over 20% by weight (which
is 72% calories from fat), then this may be why you are having some issue with fat.
Try cutting the fat down and see what happens. Don't worry, if you go to low,
you'll start to crave the fat well before you have any health issue. Just follow
your cravings if this happens and you'll be fine."
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Carnivore,
The symptoms listed in your initial post sound very familiar. I went through ALL of them. I had arrhythmia/palpitations, pulse went from low 60's into the 80s, poor energy, leg cramps (especially at night), bouts of constipation followed by loose bowels, and on and on. It just seems to be part of the body adjusting from burning carbs as its primary fuel to burning fatty acids as its primary fuel. Some of these issues lasted for several months, others went away after several weeks. As I remember, my heart rate took about 6 months before it was back down in the 60s and the palpitations went away. Bowels and digestive issues cleared up in about 3-4 months. Leg cramps took about a year. Interesting that my energy was initially bad for many weeks and then overnight I suddenly felt great - like a swith flipped on.
Lex
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Lex, it is seven months since I began this carnivore diet. It should be enough to see some improvements, don't you think ?
I have noticed that the symptoms are related to the amount of food I eat, especially fat.
I have also noticed that the more I masticate, the better it is.
Some food gives me more energy, like pork or pemmican.
I also like diversity, I am getting bored of beef.
So I believe I am doing something wrong : too much food, maybe too frequent eating, not enough mastication, not enough diversity, wrong food, etc...
Actually, the most important thing for me is to have enough energy. And I try to understand what causes these energy swings. Last year, I ate mainly pork during 4 months and I was full of energy. Now that I eat mainly beef, my energy is often too low.
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I started vlc or zero carb because I'd had severe occasional heart arrhythmia since 1995. They gradually decreased on increasingly strict raw paleo, and disappeared entirely when I started pemmican only, last September.
I still eat ground meat once in a while, but sear it for a few seconds per side, and always add some tallow, trying for 25% by eyeball, to make 80% by calorie.
My guess is that the low energy might be from eating too little tallow. Eat only when you are hungry, and if enough fat, that will probably be once/day. Excess meat becomes glucose.
"> The key -- and very few well-informed, well-meaning low carb paleo
> advocates get this -- is to LIMIT PROTEIN INTAKE to approximately 100g
> per day, making up the balance in quality fats. For those starting out,
> it can be hard to do for the first few days. But once over that hump,
> it becomes almost instinctive.
"excerpt from Phinney's review "Ketogenic Diets and
Physical Performance":
"The third dietary factor potentially affecting physical performance
is adjusting protein intake to bring it within the optimum
therapeutic window for human metabolism. The studies noted herein
[13-15,20] demonstrate effective preservation of lean body mass and
physical performance when protein is in the range of 1.2 – 1.7 g/kg
reference body weight daily, provided in the context of adequate
minerals. Picking the mid-range value of 1.5 g/kg-d, for adults with
reference weights ranging from 60–80 kg, this translates into total
daily protein intakes 90 to 120 g/d. This number is also consistent
with the protein intake reported in the Bellevue study [9]"
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William -
so how you'd explain carnivore animals that eat a lot of meat and are in very good condition?
The protein intake depends upon many factors, such as age, sex, weight, heitht, physical and mental activity, etc.
For me 100 g of protein is definitely not enough - I eat about 150-170 g with fat intake 300-400 g (my age is 25, my height 194 cm, weight 82 kg)
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So you eat mainly a pemmican diet ?
What ration of fat/protein do you use in your pemmican ?
And how much do you eat a day ?
My issue is that the more I eat fat, the more my pulse increases (among other symptoms), even after 7 months of carnivorism...
I have to limit my fat intake, but the drawback is I lack energy...
One large meal a day is also very heavy to digest for me for the moment.
I started vlc or zero carb because I'd had severe occasional heart arrhythmia since 1995. They gradually decreased on increasingly strict raw paleo, and disappeared entirely when I started pemmican only, last September.
I still eat ground meat once in a while, but sear it for a few seconds per side, and always add some tallow, trying for 25% by eyeball, to make 80% by calorie.
My guess is that the low energy might be from eating too little tallow. Eat only when you are hungry, and if enough fat, that will probably be once/day. Excess meat becomes glucose.
"> The key -- and very few well-informed, well-meaning low carb paleo
> advocates get this -- is to LIMIT PROTEIN INTAKE to approximately 100g
> per day, making up the balance in quality fats. For those starting out,
> it can be hard to do for the first few days. But once over that hump,
> it becomes almost instinctive.
"excerpt from Phinney's review "Ketogenic Diets and
Physical Performance":
"The third dietary factor potentially affecting physical performance
is adjusting protein intake to bring it within the optimum
therapeutic window for human metabolism. The studies noted herein
[13-15,20] demonstrate effective preservation of lean body mass and
physical performance when protein is in the range of 1.2 – 1.7 g/kg
reference body weight daily, provided in the context of adequate
minerals. Picking the mid-range value of 1.5 g/kg-d, for adults with
reference weights ranging from 60–80 kg, this translates into total
daily protein intakes 90 to 120 g/d. This number is also consistent
with the protein intake reported in the Bellevue study [9]"
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I think human don't have the same metabolism as true carnivore animals, because we are not!
We have a big brain, and a longer digestive system.
Do we know if true carnivores convert proteins into carbs as we do ?
William -
so how you'd explain carnivore animals that eat a lot of meat and are in very good condition?
The protein intake depends upon many factors, such as age, sex, weight, heitht, physical and mental activity, etc.
For me 100 g of protein is definitely not enough - I eat about 150-170 g with fat intake 300-400 g (my age is 25, my height 194 cm, weight 82 kg)
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I think human don't have the same metabolism as true carnivore animals, because we are not!
We have a big brain, and a longer digestive system.
Do we know if true carnivores convert proteins into carbs as we do ?
the same - not, but we're quite similar to them
Some native Inuits could eat about 5 kg of meat per day (with some fat) - it was described in some Farley Mowat's book
Fore me 1 kg of muscle-meat and some fatty organ-meats is enough - I eat it once for several hours in the end of the day
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For how long have you been eating like that ?
You personal experience just proves that it works for you. And I would be pleased that it works also for me...
But it is however clear that our ancestors were omnivores, not carnivores.
the same - not, but we're quite similar to them
Some native Inuits could eat about 5 kg of meat per day (with some fat) - it was described in some Farley Mowat's book
Fore me 1 kg of muscle-meat and some fatty organ-meats is enough - I eat it once for several hours in the end of the day
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But it is however clear that our ancestors were omnivores, not carnivores.
I agree
Apart from meat and fat I also eat some fruits and honey
carnivorous animals such as coyots also eat some berries
For how long have you been eating like that ?
You personal experience just proves that it works for you. And I would be pleased that it works also for me...
I'm rawpaleoeater for over a 1,5 year; one big meal at the end of day I started about half of the year ago - the beginning was hard but after some time I get used to it
I eat quite a lot of fat and it works for me; some other people do better with leaner diet
You'll have to experiment and discover what will be best for you :)
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one big meal at the end of day I started about half of the year ago - the beginning was hard but after some time I get used to it
Can you elaborate ? What was hard ? Any symptoms at the beginning ?
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Can you elaborate ? What was hard ? Any symptoms at the beginning ?
The feeling of hunger during a day was hard ;)
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What about eating in the morning ?
No more hunger during the day.
According to Art Devany, going to be on an empty stomach increases GH production...
The feeling of hunger during a day was hard ;)
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What about eating in the morning ?
No more hunger during the day.
According to Art Devany, going to be on an empty stomach increases GH production...
Eating in the morning has never been important for me, although I ate some breakfasts before IF.
Now I eat some fruits at 9 a.m. and then 1 large meat-and-fat meal at 5 to 9 p.m. - that is now in the summer, when there are good fresh berries to eat; when the season will end I'll probably return to not eating anything throughout the whole day till late afternoon - only ocassionally I'll eat my frozen berries (I've got already bilberries and black currents in my freezer)
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William -
so how you'd explain carnivore animals that eat a lot of meat and are in very good condition?
The protein intake depends upon many factors, such as age, sex, weight, heitht, physical and mental activity, etc.
For me 100 g of protein is definitely not enough - I eat about 150-170 g with fat intake 300-400 g (my age is 25, my height 194 cm, weight 82 kg)
Don't need to explain carnivore animals, note their short lifespan. It's as if they are running superchargers often.
Hypothetically, protein need should depend on how much repair one needs. This is a personal choice, and will vary a lot according to level of physical activity and level of health.
I think that on raw zero carb our bodies need do a lot more repair if we have been damaged by long illness.
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Don't need to explain carnivore animals, note their short lifespan. It's as if they are running superchargers often.
Their short lifespan is due to the wild dangerous conditions in which they live - wolves in North Canada, for example, live in very harsh conditions, where there is shortage of food
the same applies to paleo people and their short lifespan
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So you eat mainly a pemmican diet ?
What ration of fat/protein do you use in your pemmican ?
And how much do you eat a day ?
My issue is that the more I eat fat, the more my pulse increases (among other symptoms), even after 7 months of carnivorism...
I have to limit my fat intake, but the drawback is I lack energy...
One large meal a day is also very heavy to digest for me for the moment.
Propation of fat/protein was whatever result from the 50/50 mix of tallow and jerky; I have more energy on more tallow but needs seem to vary with the kind of fat from which the tallow is made.
I noticed a faster pulse too for a few months, I'm guessing that this is a detox reaction.
I eat about 1/2 pound pemmican a day all in the evening, don't move much afterwards but I don't feel stuffed.
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Their short lifespan is due to the wild dangerous conditions in which they live - wolves in North Canada, for example, live in very harsh conditions, where there is shortage of food
the same applies to paleo people and their short lifespan
See the movie "Never Cry Wolf" - not a dangerous life, but very physically active, plenty of food.
The only historical record of paleo lifespan is 250,000 years; I would not call that short.
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See the movie "Never Cry Wolf" - not a dangerous life, but very physically active, plenty of food.
I saw this movie, but I didn't see plenty of food
watch some documentary movies about wildlife of wolves - You'll see what it is look like
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carnivore:
you began your journal by stating
Today, I suffer from these symptoms that are all related to an excess of food and maldigestion :
-High pulse (around 80pbm)
-Poor energy
-Cramps
-Abdominal pain when I press my stomach
-Flatulence
-Fugitive pain in my left thigh
-Blurred vision
etc. etc.
i wonder,
have you familiarized yourself w/ all the materials offered at the mindful physiology site -- esp the 2 articles by lichtfield?
after all breathing is more fundamental or primary than food itself
http://www.bp.edu/ (http://www.bp.edu/)
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But it is however clear that our ancestors were omnivores, not carnivores.
We learn that chemical analysis of the bones of paleolithic man is identical to the chemical analysis of wild African lions.
So yes, our ancestors were omnivores, but not in the paleolithic, and not in good health.
We have been proving this for ~12,000 years. Enough!
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We learn that chemical analysis of the bones of paleolithic man is identical to the chemical analysis of wild African lions.
I'm interested in how this works and if I can read about it.
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i wonder,
have you familiarized yourself w/ all the materials offered at the mindful physiology site -- esp the 2 articles by lichtfield?
after all breathing is more fundamental or primary than food itself
http://www.bp.edu/ (http://www.bp.edu/)
Thank you for the link that I have looked through, but I don't see how it can help me?
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This is the third day I eat only at the end of the day :
My symptoms seem better, except for the high pulse and the medium energy. I still don't want to work-out.
But I feel good. I think my body needs time to heal, and fasting all day is a good opportunity. It allows also the body to replenish the digestive juices, enzymes, etc.
Yesterday it was pemmican (600g in 2 sittings). If I don't overeat pemmican, I can digest it more easily than ground beef. Probably because of the reduced volume. But pemmican everyday is not a good idea for me. I alternate between pemmican/ground meat/plain meat
I want to stick to this WOE a few weeks, to see how it goes!
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We learn that chemical analysis of the bones of paleolithic man is identical to the chemical analysis of wild African lions.
So yes, our ancestors were omnivores, but not in the paleolithic, and not in good health.
We have been proving this for ~12,000 years. Enough!
Pre-humans, before paleotimes, were almost vegetarian. It probably remains in our body some ability to digest plants.
Vegetables have at least been used during paleotimes as medecine, and surely in times of famine. The bones you refer to is not representative of all human during the paleolithic which lasts a few million of years.
Even my dog eat grass every day (and blackberries now). Not much yes!
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Pre-humans, before paleotimes, were almost vegetarian. It probably remains in our body some ability to digest plants.
Vegetables have at least been used during paleotimes as medecine, and surely in times of famine. The bones you refer to is not representative of all human during the paleolithic which lasts a few million of years.
Even my dog eat grass every day (and blackberries now). Not much yes!
Looks like there is some confusion here - I care not for the experience of pre-humans. Irrelevant IMO.
To me, the only relevant experience is that of our ancestors who are said to be genetically identical (genes,DNA, whatever), and lived in perfect health all their lives.
The word "human" is a judgement; I think we should use "Man", as in the race of Man technically known as home sapiens sapiens.
So the bones I refer to represent those whose diet we should copy, and I do the best I can and it is working for me. Faute de mieux.
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Looks like there is some confusion here - I care not for the experience of pre-humans. Irrelevant IMO.
To me, the only relevant experience is that of our ancestors who are said to be genetically identical (genes,DNA, whatever), and lived in perfect health all their lives.
The word "human" is a judgement; I think we should use "Man", as in the race of Man technically known as home sapiens sapiens.
So the bones I refer to represent those whose diet we should copy, and I do the best I can and it is working for me. Faute de mieux.
Human has a very long lineage, and a very long history as well, that have shaped him. Ignoring it, and retaining only one period, would be an error in my point of view.
We have ample exemples of people eating lots of vegetables with good health (like the Kitavan and the Kuna indians).
I don't eat a carnivore diet because one have found some bones from paleolithic that were chemically identical to carnivores.
Yes, paleolithic man was probably highly carnivore, but I can't be absolutely sure. I was not there!
I eat such a diet because it works for me. But I would not hesitate to eat a moderate amount of natural carbs if it was better for me.
Moi aussi je fais de mon mieux!
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We have ample exemples of people eating lots of vegetables with good health (like the Kitavan and the Kuna indians).
That's true, but Western people with damaged metabolisms are unable to handle such amounts of carbs, so in order to heal they must go into low-carb diet, preferably rawpaleo
Besides there are indeed some examples of healthy tribes which ate quite a lot of fruits and vegetables; but when we are talking about superior health there is only one answer - rawpaleodiet based mainly upon meat and fat :)
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That's true, but Western people with damaged metabolisms are unable to handle such amounts of carbs, so in order to heal they must go into low-carb diet, preferably rawpaleo
Besides there are indeed some examples of healthy tribes which ate quite a lot of fruits and vegetables; but when we are talking about superior health there is only one answer - rawpaleodiet based mainly upon meat and fat :)
I TOTALLY AGREE.
My point was to say that healthy people, in certain conditions, can handle quite a large amount of plant food without troubles apparently. And it means something about the past of human.
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My point was to say that healthy people, in certain conditions, can handle quite a large amount of plant food without troubles apparently. And it means something about the past of human.
I agree with you 100%, but, as you said, it regards only healthy people who haven't screwed up their organisms
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I agree with you 100%, but, as you said, it regards only healthy people who haven't screwed up their organisms
...which is not our case.
Carnivorism is the best we can do for us!
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Carnivorism is the best we can do for us!
Yeah, but it is not obligate carnivorism, so we should rather eat some fruits like berries (even coyots do eat them) - our brain (and several other tissues) needs some glucose and I think it's better to give it with food rather than resorting to gluconeogenesis, depleting the amount of proteins
human brain needs much more energy that animal's brain
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Yeah, but it is not obligate carnivorism, so we should rather eat some fruits like berries (even coyots do eat them) - our brain (and several other tissues) needs some glucose and I think it's better to give it with food rather than resorting to gluconeogenesis, depleting the amount of proteins
human brain needs much more energy that animal's brain
Well, I can't eat berries because of the seeds that hurt my gut.
What will you eat when berries won't be any more available, after the season ?
What is the problem with gluconeogenesis, as long as meat is in sufficient amount ?
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..... I think it's better to give it with food rather than resorting to gluconeogenesis, depleting the amount of proteins
human brain needs much more energy that animal's brain
What makes you believe that gluconeogenesis isn't happening all the time? How do you know that the glycerol of the fat you are eating isn't turned into glucose as well? Isn't it is a bit presumptuous to think that we understand these metabolic mechanisms well enough to make statements like this?
I know that the idea that gluconeogenesis is turned on and off like a light switch is a popular theme amongst the followers of The Bear, however, he's never produced one bit of scientific evidence to back up his rather dubious pronouncements, even though it has been asked of him many times, and he insists he has it. I believe his last excuse when challenged for evidence, was that all the studies that support his beliefs have been misplaced and he can't find them in his vast collection of data. It is also fascinating that no one else knows of these studies that The Bear references. If they were real, they'd be published somewhere.
My own personal experience has demonstrated that part of ALL the protein we eat has an effect in rising blood glucose - regardless of whether carbs are consumed. The problem with seeing is effect is that in a typical modern diet the protein fraction is so small that it is totally swamped by the carb load. If you eat a known small quantity of carb and track BG I've found BG rises. If I follow those carbs with a meal of meat and fat, BG rises further. There certainly was no “need” for additional BG but the body converted something in the meat to cause BG to rise.
Lex
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Well, I can't eat berries because of the seeds that hurt my gut.
Ok, so maybe some other fruits will be not problematic for you? What about honey/ honeycomb?
What will you eat when berries won't be any more available, after the season ?
I will eat those, which I did freeze during the season. :)
Besides honey and honeycomb.
What is the problem with gluconeogenesis, as long as meat is in sufficient amount ?
Gluconeogenesis isn't bad - I didn't say that. But I think that it is more economical to supply some carbs with food; besides, when you eat berries, for example, you've got so many beneficial ingredients, that are not present in meat
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But I think that it is more economical to supply some carbs with food; besides, when you eat berries, for example, you've got so many beneficial ingredients, that are not present in meat
What evidence do you have that there are ingredients in berries that our bodies require that are not present in meat? I have eaten nothing but meat and fat for almost 4 years now and have no deficiencies and my overall health and blood chemistry continue to improve. My health is far better today than it was when I was eating carbs of any sort and I have the lab tests to prove it. Here is an interesting post about fruits and veggies in our diets:
http://high-fat-nutrition.blogspot.com/search/label/Fruit%20and%20vegetables%20%281%29%20re%20post
Peter's HyperLipid blog is a wealth of information and it is all backed up with published studies and hard evidence.
Lex
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What evidence do you have that there are ingredients in berries that our bodies require that are not present in meat?
Lutein in blueberries and bilberries is proven to definitely help one's eyesight. Have you got lutein in meat and fat?
I have eaten nothing but meat and fat for almost 4 years now and have no deficiencies and my overall health and blood chemistry continue to improve. My health is far better today than it was when I was eating carbs of any sort and I have the lab tests to prove it.
Yes, I know that meat and fat diet is very good for you. But you're not representative to overall population. The majoraty of people do better adding some carbs like berries to one's diet; but apart from that - meat and fat, of course :)
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Does the majority really do better with some carbs? Sounds like acculturation to me.
Show me a plant product that has higher levels of lutein than meat and fat (eye balls)
There is nothing in plant matter that our bodies need.
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Does the majority really do better with some carbs? Sounds like acculturation to me.
Many people that I know do better with even a little bit of carbs in their diet (e.g. 20 grams) than with zero-carb. I myself have got some zero-carb days and that's ok; yet not in the long term
But if you do better on pure meat and fat diet all the time - eat this way :)
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How Can Eating Excess Protein Raise Blood Glucose?
I do know that high blood glucose can convert proteins in the body to Advanced Glycation Endproducts (AGEs), that accumulate in our eyes, kidneys, arteries, nerve endings, joints and skin, causing stiffening and the physical degeneration of old age. I don't know the level of blood glucose at which these changes start to take place.
Something to consider is that the accumulation of AGEs may be the reason that the explorer Vilhjalmur Stefansson noted in 1936 that Eskimo women who had lived on a zero-carb diet all their lives, "usually seem as old at sixty as our women do at eighty."
http://lowcarb4u.blogspot.com/
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My point was to say that healthy people, in certain conditions, can handle quite a large amount of plant food without troubles apparently. And it means something about the past of human.
I find this a particularly interesting statement since it is the consuption of plant foods that have caused so much misery to so many. I don't think your point is supported by the measurable degneration of the health of the general population as carbs in our diets increase. It is now 'normal' to have Type 2 diabetes. There are now more advertisments on Televsion for drugs to address the degenerative conditions caused by eating carbs than any thing else - by about 2 to 1. Apparently as a group, we are not 'handleing' large amounts of plant food all that well.
Lex
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Lutein in blueberries and bilberries is proven to definitely help one's eyesight. Have you got lutein in meat and fat? Yes, I know that meat and fat diet is very good for you. But you're not representative to overall population. The majoraty of people do better adding some carbs like berries to one's diet; but apart from that - meat and fat, of course :)
Yes, there is lutein in the organs and egg yolks of chickens that eat lutein-containing plants, and animal sources of lutein are actually the most bioavailable (see below), as with most nutrients. My guess is that lutein also could be obtained from the eyeballs and other flesh of chickens and other animals that eat it, since it apparently is in the eyeballs of humans (how else would it improve vision unless it went into the eyes?). Remember, people didn't used to think there was any vitamin C in meat and organs, but now we know better due to the Inuit, Stefansson and others. The quantity of a nutrient in a food is generally less important than its bioavailability. This is why vegetarians have to take vitamin B12 supplements despite there being B12 present in fermented soy products, seaweeds and algae.
I don't know whether people do better with berries in the diet or not. I hope so as I love berries. Do you have evidence to support your claim that the majority do?
Click here: Lutein in chicken liver (http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6X0P-4HG6HD5-6&_user=10&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&_docanchor=&view=c&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=2ae4d7ecfd09a9a54dc6d8c86ded82c4) (see also http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=17368787)
Lutein in broiler chick livers: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1409229
Lutein also accumulates in the spleen: http://jn.nutrition.org/cgi/content/full/128/10/1802
Lutein: Are You Getting Enough of This Anti-Aging Antioxidant Powerhouse? (http://www.sixwise.com/newsletters/06/04/19/lutein-are-you-getting-enough-of-this-anti-aging-antioxidant-powerhouse.htm)
by www.SixWise.com
"Lutein is found in a wide variety of fruits and vegetables, but it appears that the best source of lutein is from egg yolks, simply because it is more readily absorbed by the body.
In fact, when 10 volunteers ate different sources of lutein (spinach, eggs or one of two types of lutein supplements, each of which provided 6 mg of lutein per day), eggs came out on top. Those who ate eggs as their lutein source had blood levels of lutein that were about three times higher than that of those who ate other lutein sources.
The researchers suspect that other components in the egg yolk, such as lecithin, are responsible for its superior absorbability."
[Note: the lecithin in eggs is different from and superior to that in soy--I do not recommend soy lecithin]
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Yes, there is lutein in the organs and egg yolks of chickens that eat lutein-containing plants, and animal sources of lutein are actually the most bioavailable (see below), as with most nutrients.
Yeah, you are right ;)
But I think that there're some others "precious" ingredients in berries.
What about vitamin B17 (Amygdalin) that is found in aboundance in apricot seeds? Is there any animal counterpart?
I don't know whether people do better with berries in the diet or not. I hope so as I love berries. Do you have evidence to support your claim that the majority do?
I said that people generally do better with some carbs in their diet than with zero-carb. All the Polish people that I know, who experimented with zero-carb, eventutally realized that this not for them, that they do better even with a little bit of carbs (e.g. 20-30 g).
What about rawpaleodiet community? How many of us eat only meat and fat and do better with zero-carb rawpaleodiet? As I know it's definitely minority. Am I wrong?
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I find this a particularly interesting statement since it is the consuption of plant foods that have caused so much misery to so many. I don't think your point is supported by the measurable degneration of the health of the general population as carbs in our diets increase. It is now 'normal' to have Type 2 diabetes. There are now more advertisments on Televsion for drugs to address the degenerative conditions caused by eating carbs than any thing else - by about 2 to 1. Apparently as a group, we are not 'handleing' large amounts of plant food all that well.
Lex
You maybe all right Lex. ;)
I should be still influenced by conventional dietetic that deified fruits and vegetables.
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...What about rawpaleodiet community? How many of us eat only meat and fat and do better with zero-carb rawpaleodiet? As I know it's definitely minority. Am I wrong?
Yes, that is evidence and thanks for sharing what you base your view on, though I am also aware of another forum larger than this one where the people claim to do better on zero carb than they do on small amounts of carbs. I don't know who is right and it seems to be a sensitive issue, so I will try to stay out of the argument. I suspect that some people do better on VLC and some on ZC.
I was actually curious as to whether you might know of studies on this. The only study I am aware of that comes close is the Bellevue experiment, which looked only at ZC in isolation. Have there been any studies that compared ZC to VLC?
...and I am actually rooting for berries, BTW, since I like the taste of them. :D
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Here are my blood test results. I am on a mainly raw carnivorous (zerocarbs) diet for 8 months, eating mainly beef (grass-fed and grain-fed), and some horse, pork, lamb. I also eat tallow and pemmican, and clarified raw organic butter.
FBG = 0.96 g/l (0.74-1.06)
A1C = 5.5% (<6%)
Urea = 0.52 g/l (0.17-0.43)
Total cholesterol = 4.31 g/l (<2)
HDL = 0.65 g/l (>0.4)
Triglycerids = 1.47 g/l (<1.5)
LDL = 3.37 g/l (0.9-1.6)
VLDL = 0.29 g/l (0.05-0.25)
Vitamin B9 (folic acid) = 2.94 (>5.38)
Fasting blood glucose is pretty high, like my A1C and my urea is too high.
LDL is very high and VLDL is a bit too high.
Folic acid is too low.
Triglycerids could be lower.
I believe I still eat too much fat, as my pulse raises to 90 after eating, and I have some unpleasant symptoms.
I'll try to stick to one meal a day for the next months, to see if health improves.
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IF we are all eating an abnormal diet, should we expect normal blood test results?
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IF we are all eating an abnormal diet, should we expect normal blood test results?
You're right.
On a carnivorous diet, HDL should be high and triglycerids should be low. The rest is pretty irrelevant.
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I just glimpsed upon a Heart Scan method. I think you posted that.
That seems to be relevant. You could get an analysis if arteries are clean or blocked.
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For my 41th birthday, I am spending some days in Normandy near Deauville. My sister has a house at Villers sur mer, next to the beach. It is a nice place to walk along the beach, swimming, running, etc. after the tourist season. It's also a nice place to enjoy the french gastronomy! The Normands are definitively “bons vivants” : Andouillette, boudin, camember au lait cru, pont lévèques, tarte tatin à la crème, coquille saint jacques, etc. Animal flesh and fat don't seem to scatter them. No more than me. It's the paradise for cooked carnivores!...For me, it is the opportunity to eat some seafood (oysters, shrimp, tourteau crabs, while waiting for the scallop in october), wild fish directly from the fisherman, to drink some organic cider. Raw butter is also very tasty here. I have found on the market of Caen some awesome mussels from “Utah beach”, which rank close to the ones from New Zealand. Oysters from Utah beach are also wonderful. They are crunchy with a taste of hazelnuts. The best ones for me (after wild oysters). Utah beach is a favoured place to breed seafood because it remains some wrecks from the second world war in the bottom of the sea where many marine plant and coral can grow and feed undersea life.
I feel very good here! Probably it is the fresh air (full of negative ions) and the raw seafood (iodine maybe?).
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Some food gives me more energy, like pork or pemmican.
I also like diversity, I am getting bored of beef.
Actually, the most important thing for me is to have enough energy. And I try to understand what causes these energy swings. Last year, I ate mainly pork during 4 months and I was full of energy. Now that I eat mainly beef, my energy is often too low.
It would have been logical to stick to the foods which gave you more energy. Why have you decided not to continue with pork as your main meat/fat source?
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It would have been logical to stick to the foods which gave you more energy. Why have you decided not to continue with pork as your main meat/fat source?
No more access to a good quality pork. But I still had the symtoms of excess fat : high pulse, cramps, arrythmia, ...
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Since I cured arrhythmia with pemmican, I don't see it as a symptom of excess fat.
Malnutrition complicated by some metabolic disorder is my bet.
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I'd like to specify whether it was pork fat, pork meat or both that gave you good energy? Have you tried eating lean beef and pure pork fat?
Here is some info from one of my old posts: I have found in the live-food group archives an interesting suggestion. A certain Daniel Kane claimed that his “blood chemistry indicated that he needed to eat turkey and pork and cut back on chicken and beef. He believed it was because all the raw beef was overactivating his adrenal glands and the pork contains Thresine (an important amino acid in adrenaline function).” He also said that “proponents of all-raw diets attributed his unsatiated appetite for beef to anemia, however, according to blood chemistry it was his body desperately trying to get the amino acids it needed from red meat, which it couldn’t, no matter how much he ate. Whatever Thresine, if any, is found in other raw meats is miniscule compared to pork or compared to its utilization in pork.”
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I'd like to specify whether it was pork fat, pork meat or both that gave you good energy? Have you tried eating lean beef and pure pork fat?
Here is some info from one of my old posts: I have found in the live-food group archives an interesting suggestion. A certain Daniel Kane claimed that his “blood chemistry indicated that he needed to eat turkey and pork and cut back on chicken and beef. He believed it was because all the raw beef was overactivating his adrenal glands and the pork contains Thresine (an important amino acid in adrenaline function).” He also said that “proponents of all-raw diets attributed his unsatiated appetite for beef to anemia, however, according to blood chemistry it was his body desperately trying to get the amino acids it needed from red meat, which it couldn’t, no matter how much he ate. Whatever Thresine, if any, is found in other raw meats is miniscule compared to pork or compared to its utilization in pork.”
that's intersting. however, i don't think 'thresine' is even a word, much less an amino acid. i think you're thinking of tyrosine which IS important in adrenal function. anyways, maybe i should eat more pork. i found a guy who sells it at the farmer's market claiming that it is from feral hogs that run wild near his farm (he just shoots em and cuts em up). i have it every once in a while and it tastes pretty good.
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CFS & FMS as Adrenaline Exhaustion
by Jacob Teitelbaum MD
"Let's begin with an important piece of biochemistry. Your body uses the amino acid (protein) called "tyrosine" to make the brain chemical dopamine (one of the "happiness molecules"). Dopamine is then turned into adrenaline (epinephrine and norepinephrine). Excessive production of adrenaline depletes tyrosine, followed by deficiencies of both dopamine and adrenaline. Tyrosine is also the amino acid used to make thyroid hormones. So it becomes clear that treating the tyrosine deficiency is important."
http://www.ei-resource.org/expert-columns/dr.-jacob-teitelbaums-column/cfs-and-fms-as-adrenaline-exhaustion/
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I'd like to specify whether it was pork fat, pork meat or both that gave you good energy? Have you tried eating lean beef and pure pork fat?
Here is some info from one of my old posts: I have found in the live-food group archives an interesting suggestion. A certain Daniel Kane claimed that his “blood chemistry indicated that he needed to eat turkey and pork and cut back on chicken and beef. He believed it was because all the raw beef was overactivating his adrenal glands and the pork contains Thresine (an important amino acid in adrenaline function).” He also said that “proponents of all-raw diets attributed his unsatiated appetite for beef to anemia, however, according to blood chemistry it was his body desperately trying to get the amino acids it needed from red meat, which it couldn’t, no matter how much he ate. Whatever Thresine, if any, is found in other raw meats is miniscule compared to pork or compared to its utilization in pork.”
Interesting. I will investigate.
Pork is a soft meat and fat, easier to digest for me. I am not sure it is related to the amino acid profil. I have noticed also that horse and donkey are also easier for my digestion because the fat is soft. Butter with lean beaf give me also a good energy.
My energy level is determined by many factors, not only the food I eat (even if I believe it is the most important factor). For exemple, I feel very good these days because I am currently on the cost and I can breath unpolluted fresh air. I sprint on the beach and this gives me good energy. I have put 3Kg of muscles on my carcass only by sprinting and eating seafood, fatty meat and raw butter.
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Most organ meats, such as liver, kidneys and heart are also very easy for digestion. I think a diet consisting of organs, fish and butter would be balanced and energy giving.
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Most organ meats, such as liver, kidneys and heart are also very easy for digestion. I think a diet consisting of organs, fish and butter would be balanced and energy giving.
If I eat organ regularly, I have pain in my fingertip. Look like an inflammation (gout?).
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Well, yes, organ meats such as liver, heart, kidney and sweetbreads contain high levels of purines. Traditional dietary advice for gout sufferers is to avoid all high-purine food and limit other foods that contain medium levels of purines. Even muscle meat carnivorous diet would be a bad idea for somebody with disrupted metabolism of purines.
Here is the list of purine levels in foods:
http://www.britishdalmatianclub.org.uk/downloads/Purine%20Table%202003.htm
You can learn more about purines here:
http://www.whfoods.com/genpage.php?tname=george&dbid=51
Of special interest is the following paragraph:
The effect of cooking on purines
"Research on cooking and purine content is very limited. Animal studies in this area have shown definite changes in purine content following the boiling and broiling of beef, beef liver, haddock, and mushrooms.
However, even though these cooking processes affect purine content, the nature of the changes are not clear. On the one hand, boiling high-purine foods in water can cause break-down of the purine-containing components (called nucleic acids) and eventual freeing up of the purines for absorption. For example, in some animal studies, where rats were fed cooked versus non-cooked foods, the animals eating the cooked version experienced greater absorption and excretion of purine-related compounds.
From this evidence, it might be tempting to conclude that cook of high-purine foods actually increases the risk from purines. On the other hand, when foods were boiled, some of the purines were freed up into the cooking water and became lost from the food (because the water in which the food was boiled got discarded after cooking). From this evidence, the exact opposite conclusion would make sense: cooking of high-purines reduces the purine risk. "
I have rather unpleasant experience of uric acid kidney stones which were formed as a result of high purines raw zero carbohydarte diet. Prior to that I didn't think that raw animal foods could harm.
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FBG = 0.96 g/l (0.74-1.06) That seems high to me (though your A1C is lower than Lex's). Lex reported that his BG dropped 15 points by eat more fats, but I don't know whether he meant FBG or random BG
A1C = 5.5% (<6%) seems a little on the high side, but within range
Urea = 0.52 g/l (0.17-0.43) higher than range, but that may be normal for a carnivorous diet, as GS suggested. I did find this: "If possible, the patient should avoid eating a diet high in meat or other protein before having a blood urea nitrogen (BUN) test." http://www.doctorslounge.com/nephrology/labs/urea.htm But presumably your fasting before the test should have avoided that skewing. Dehydration is apparently the most common cause, and it can also indicate kidney problems. Many people report being less thirsty on a RAF diet, so it seems to be important to drink plenty of water (and perhaps mineral-rich water).
Total cholesterol = 4.31 g/l (<2) Higher than range, but may be normal for a carnivorous diet, I don't know. I've seen healthy ZCers report very high TC, but this does seem higher than avg even for ZC.
HDL = 0.65 g/l (>0.4) Good, though I'm surprised it's not a bit better after a year of raw carnivore
Triglycerids = 1.47 g/l (<1.5) Way too high. I'm surprised at this number.
LDL = 3.37 g/l (0.9-1.6) I've seen multiple ZCers report high LDL like this and it could actually be a good sign suggesting that you have more of the benign, large, fluffy LDL.
VLDL = 0.29 g/l (0.05-0.25) This seems high and concerning to me, however
Vitamin B9 (folic acid) = 2.94 (>5.38) Folate deficiency is common from plant-heavy diets--especially grain and fruit-based. Did you eat a plant-heavy diet in the past?
Fasting blood glucose is pretty high, like my A1C and my urea is too high.Yes, do you have one of those free BG devices that you can use to see what foods spike your BG? Are you drinking plenty of water?
LDL is very high and VLDL is a bit too high. -- I'm more concerned about the VLDL, which is a better predictor of heart disease than LDL (I've seen studies that found LDL to be no predictor at all); VLDL is most strongly linked to high-glycemic-load carbohydrates
Triglycerids could be lower. - Yes, mine dropped from 210 to 67 within 3 months of giving up gluten. For some reason you are not responding nearly as well as I did. Some possible causes are hypothyroidism, kidney dysfunction, high calories, alcohol, certain medicines.
I believe I still eat too much fat, as my pulse raises to 90 after eating, and I have some unpleasant symptoms. - I think Lex may have reported that phemenon also. Have you asked him about it?
You've reported eating these foods:
seafood (oysters, shrimp, tourteau crabs, while waiting for the scallop in october), wild fish directly from the fisherman. - You said you did well on these, so it sounds like seafood should be one of your staple foods if you can afford it.
some organic cider - I'm guessing this was a rare occurrence
Raw butter is also very tasty here - Are you consuming dairy products regularly? I don't want to start a dairy debate, but Tyler and I have both noticed that many VLCers and ZCers who continue to have health problems are regular consumers of some dairy products. Is this just coincidence, or could it be related? Lex and I don't consume much dairy and while our health is not perfect, we seem to have experienced more improvements than you. Again, is this just coincidence, or is there a relationship?
High pulse, arrhythmia, inflammation, sensitive teeth, blurred vision, "worse" hyperlipidemia, "severe digestive problems" ("still can't eat one fruit or one vegetable without having gas and abdominal pain like before").
High pulse, arrhythmia, inflammation, sensitive teeth, blurred vision, hyperlipidemia, digestive problems and high triglycerides are all associated with high-carb diets. Why you would be experiencing it on a raw carnivore diet with only occasional cider, I don't know. Could you list all the foods you regularly eat, including beverages, and any supplements/foodlements you take? Have you done any investigating yourself to figure out this puzzle? Have you looked into what nutritional and systemic deficiencies can contribute to these symptoms?
Some improvement: less gas, less abdominal pain, better energy - Yes, many VLC/ZC/carnivores report that
I was omnivorous before this ZC trial. My folate deficiency is caused by not eating enough organ (especially liver), and too much muscle. That does not bother me!
I drink to thirst : not much. I'll try to drink more.
I don't have a BG device.
My blood tests were much better before on a raw omnivorous diet, but I was in such a bad shape (underweight, always tired, etc.) that I decided to change my diet.
Seafood is a very good food for me, but does not give me enough energy (fat) on the long term, so cannot be a staple.
I eat mainly fatty beef and sheep, with occasional seafood and organs. I have definitively stopped eating butter.
I very seldom drink cider (once a year?)
Yes I talked with Lex and the high pulse occurs generally at the transition to a high fat diet, and does not last more than a few weeks. I started ZC 11 months ago.
My digestive system has not improved at all after 11 months of ZC : I ate fruits and veggies 3 days ago and I suffered gas and abdominal pain like before.
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I don't have a BG device.
I got y OneTouch Ultra2 meter free online thanks to Todd Moody at PaleoFood. There are newer ones available now:
Free Glucose Meters: https://www.onetouchgold.com/simplestart/; http://free-glucose-meter.com/diabetes-store-glucose-meters.html
My blood tests were much better before on a raw omnivorous diet, but I was in such a bad shape (underweight, always tired, etc.) that I decided to change my diet.
Lex's BG improved after increasing fat.
Seafood is a very good food for me, but does not give me enough energy (fat) on the long term, so cannot be a staple.
What about fatty fish and fatty fish eaten with suet or marrow?
Yes I talked with Lex and the high pulse occurs generally at the transition to a high fat diet, and does not last more than a few weeks. I started ZC 11 months ago.
Did you ask him why your high pulse continues? Have you or anyone else come up with any possible explanations? My pulse remains low.
My digestive system has not improved at all after 11 months of ZC : I ate fruits and veggies 3 days ago and I suffered gas and abdominal pain like before.
When I occasionally cheat from carnivore I don't eat a lot of both fruits and veggies, I'll do things like have a handful of berries or a handful of raw salad veggies like broccoli and carrots. That way I don't get increases in dry skin and dental plaque or stomach upset, etc. like I used to when I was regularly eating significant carbs. I also try to clean my teeth well after eating any fruit and I ordered bone meal to further help in the dental area.
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I got y OneTouch Ultra2 meter free online thanks to Todd Moody at PaleoFood. There are newer ones available now:
Free Glucose Meters: https://www.onetouchgold.com/simplestart/; http://free-glucose-meter.com/diabetes-store-glucose-meters.html
Lex's BG improved after increasing fat.
What about fatty fish and fatty fish eaten with suet or marrow?
Did you ask him why your high pulse continues? Have you or anyone else come up with any possible explanations? My pulse remains low.
When I occasionally cheat from carnivore I don't eat a lot of both fruits and veggies, I'll do things like have a handful of berries or a handful of raw salad veggies like broccoli and carrots. That way I don't get increases in dry skin and dental plaque or stomach upset, etc. like I used to when I was regularly eating significant carbs. I also try to clean my teeth well after eating any fruit and I ordered bone meal to further help in the dental area.
How can a BG meters can help someone who eat fatty meat to hunger once a day ?
I can't digest fatty fish like sardines and mackerels...
Lex has no explanation for my high pulse.
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How can a BG meters can help someone who eat fatty meat to hunger once a day ?
Have you been following Lex's journal? He regularly measures his BG and noticed that it varies depending on the level of fat he eats. You might discover something similar, and it's free! Although they only gave me a small number of test strips, but you probably wouldn't have to do a lot of measurements to get a general idea.
I can't digest fatty fish like sardines and mackerels...
Lex has no explanation for my high pulse.
Sorry to hear that. Unfortunately, I don't have an explanation for the high pulse either. There are so few people doing this WOE that we don't have a lot of data and analysis to draw on. You might try asking over at the ZC forum.
Can you digest wild salmon, tuna, trout or any other oily fish?
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I have gone through various stages where I was unable to properly absorb certain, particular raw foods while rawpalaeo. My take on this is that usually this happened because I overate those same foods, so that my body was more or less tired of getting an excess amount of the same old nutrients and wanted some other foods, instead. Not that this was always the case, Those times, when I was on VLC, and developed a food-intolerance towards raw fruits, merely occured because I was eating so few raw carbs that I wasn't supplying enough carb-digesting bacteria etc. for my digestive system.
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Have you been following Lex's journal? He regularly measures his BG and noticed that it varies depending on the level of fat he eats. You might discover something similar, and it's free! Although they only gave me a small number of test strips, but you probably wouldn't have to do a lot of measurements to get a general idea.
No, it's not free : Pay attention: DiabetesStore gives free glucose meter only when you buy some amount of test strips from them! Thus, it's a kind of discount.
, and they probably don't ship to France.
Sorry to hear that. Unfortunately, I don't have an explanation for the high pulse either. There are so few people doing this WOE that we don't have a lot of data and analysis to draw on. You might try asking over at the ZC forum.
The ZC forum locked the thread I started a few months ago because the advices given by the members were not compliant with the dominant ideology of this forum. My account has been closed.
Can you digest wild salmon, tuna, trout or any other oily fish?
Salmon and tuna are OK for me.
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I have gone through various stages where I was unable to properly absorb certain, particular raw foods while rawpalaeo. My take on this is that usually this happened because I overate those same foods, so that my body was more or less tired of getting an excess amount of the same old nutrients and wanted some other foods, instead. Not that this was always the case, Those times, when I was on VLC, and developed a food-intolerance towards raw fruits, merely occured because I was eating so few raw carbs that I wasn't supplying enough carb-digesting bacteria etc. for my digestive system.
I think you are right Tyler : I should vary my food, and not always eat the same thing. After reading Lex's journal and the ZC forum, I had the impression that different food was not required for good health. But that's definitively not a good idea for me. I will also try to eat a few fruits and probably veggies. A ZC diet seems to be too extreme for me!
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The ZC forum locked the thread I started a few months ago because the advices given by the members were not compliant with the dominant ideology of this forum. My account has been closed.
What thread was that? Presumably a pro-raw thread?
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What thread was that? Presumably a pro-raw thread?
I can't find the thread because the search page requires an account. It was several months ago. I just asked some help for my symptoms. Not particularly pro-raw.
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I can't find the thread because the search page requires an account. It was several months ago. I just asked some help for my symptoms. Not particularly pro-raw.
So they presumably don't like anyone complaining about negative symptoms while on cooked ZC. Plus, it's really childish to force people to register for an account merely in order to search past posts, people ought to be allowed to see what the forum is like before joining.
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No, it's not free : Pay attention: DiabetesStore gives free glucose meter only when you buy some amount of test strips from them! Thus, it's a kind of discount.
, and they probably don't ship to France.
Actually, I did receive the OneTouch at the first link free without having to buy any test strips ever. I just added the DiabetesStore link for an additional option, and because it was in my files with the other one. But I did check and it does look like the first offer only ships to the US--sorry. It was meant more of as a starting point, though, not necessarily a final answer. Are you sure there's no similar offers in France? The reason some companies give away free monitors in this country is because the real money is made on the test strips. There might also be sales on monitors there for the same reason. It's just a thought.
The ZC forum locked the thread I started a few months ago because the advices given by the members were not compliant with the dominant ideology of this forum. My account has been closed.
Sorry to hear that.
Salmon and tuna are OK for me.
If by OK you mean those are not as good as for you as the seafood you find you is very good for you then another option would be to eat the seafood you find is very good for you and just eat fat with it. I wish you luck on finding what works best for you.
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Yeah my account appears to be canceled on ZIOH also
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Yeah my account appears to be canceled on ZIOH also
I don't understand why they have to be so draconian. I mean, technically, you believe in at least half of what they preach, that is the main ZC part. And even Stefansson's cited Inuit diet contained some raw animal food, and that's supposed to be their very inspiration.
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My account is also closed, even though the control freak could not have known who it was - untraceable email address and phony name, inactive.
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Add me to the banned list.
I think all raw paleos were moderated there...
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Yeah my account appears to be canceled on ZIOH also
Andrew, you got mentioned on the "shout box" and never responded; I am shore this is all a misunderstanding and I do not see why people don't go the direct way and "ASK CHARLES TO UNCANCEL!!!"
All he wants is for you to do zerocarb; he could not give a :o about raw or cooked - just know when to shut up; after all we do not no "it" all just because we eat raw!
Nicola
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I don't understand why they have to be so draconian. I mean, technically, you believe in at least half of what they preach, that is the main ZC part. And even Stefansson's cited Inuit diet contained some raw animal food, and that's supposed to be their very inspiration.
Charles believes that it is neither necessary to eat raw food nor to eat grassfed. This makes a huge difference with the paleo approach which emphasis wild/grassfed and varied food.
I wish him good luck with his cooked grainfed muscle beef only diet!
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Charles believes that it is neither necessary to eat raw food nor to eat grassfed. This makes a huge difference with the paleo approach which emphasis wild/grassfed and varied food.
I wish him good luck with his cooked grainfed muscle beef only diet!
No wonder they recommend cooked meat if they also recommend grainfed meat. Grainfed meat, judging from my own experience, tastes disgusting and/or bland when raw, depending on the type of food and quality thereof, so has to be cooked for taste reasons.
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Nicola is right. Charles doesn't ban people just because they're raw, else he would have banned her and me, and some of his moderators are raw eaters. He bans people who talk to much about raw and claim it's better than cooked.
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He also searches the member list and bans those who register with an email address such as mailinator.com.
We could make a list of his reasons for banning; I just decided that he is nye kulturny.
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He bans people who talk to much about raw and claim it's better than cooked.
Like espousing the benefits of ZC on a VLC site with a different propaganda and getting booted for it... ;D
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Nicola is right. Charles doesn't ban people just because they're raw, else he would have banned her and me, and some of his moderators are raw eaters. He bans people who talk to much about raw and claim it's better than cooked.
I never talked about raw better than cooked on his forum. Actually after my first thread was locked, I did not write anything else...
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he is nye kulturny.
WOW... priam v iablochko!
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I never talked about raw better than cooked on his forum. Actually after my first thread was locked, I did not write anything else...
OK, I meant in general. I don't know the reasons for specific cases, which we probably shouldn't get into here.
Back to the topic--Frederic and Yuri, what are your plans to address your current health issues other than sticking with raw ZC? I'm curious because of my own history of chronic kidney stones with UTIs and current somewhat denser urine on raw carnivore.
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Back to the topic--Frederic and Yuri, what are your plans to address your current health issues other than sticking with raw ZC? I'm curious because of my own history of chronic kidney stones with UTIs and current somewhat denser urine on raw carnivore.
BACK TO BASIC
To eat paleo as much as possible : wild, varied, raw...To reintroduce carefully some fruits and vegetables, more seafood, organs, etc...
No more processing (rendering, drying, pemmican, etc.). To try to listen more to my feeling.
I find very difficult to balance myself on a ZC diet for now.
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Maybe the kidney stones are due to the pemmican some raw zero-carbers eat a lot of. It makes sense as cooked ketogenic diets often lead to kidney-stones as side-effects.
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Maybe the kidney stones are due to the pemmican some raw zero-carbers eat a lot of. It makes sense as cooked ketogenic diets often lead to kidney-stones as side-effects.
Unfortunately, we don't know for sure. The mechanisms by which kidney stones are formed are not understood. So we have to rely on experiment and trial and error.
In my opinion, the most remarkable experiment nature has yet done on our species with LC diets is the inuit one.The inuits thrived over many generations in (as far as we know) good health and shape on such a diet in spite of a particularly hostile environment for a species of tropical origin.
Yet it is clear that their diet
-was not ZC. They gathered apparently all the food of plant origin, they could, such as berries or seaweeds.
-was not based solely on meat and fat from a single or even a few terrestrial mammals.
-included a large amount of seafood and organs and the content of organs. The fat in particular was largely blubber.
With respect to modern ZC diets based on pemmican the apparently proven and safe inuit diet was actually much more varied and these differences or "details" might well be quite important.
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In my opinion, the most remarkable experiment nature has yet done on our species with LC diets is the inuit one.The Inuit thrived over many generations in (as far as we know) good health and shape on such a diet in spite of a particularly hostile environment for a species of tropical origin.
Yet it is clear that their diet
-was not ZC. They gathered apparently all the food of plant origin, they could, such as berries or seaweeds.
-was not based solely on meat and fat from a single or even a few terrestrial mammals.
-included a large amount of seafood and organs and the content of organs. The fat in particular was largely blubber.
With respect to modern ZC diets based on pemmican the apparently proven and safe Inuit diet was actually much more varied and these differences or "details" might well be quite important.
The Inuit I and Stefansson knew live in the Western Canadian Arctic, where there are few if any berries, and no seaweeds eaten AFAIK.
Their diet was of both terrestrial and marine mammals, mostly marine; they caught fish to feed their dogs and probably only ate fish when they had nothing else to eat.
They had rendered fat all winter for light and possibly food, and there was nothing to stop them from eating it, since TD was not there. ;)
The only reference to organs I remember was Stefansson's remark that they ate the flesh of fish, and gave the rest to the dogs.
My impression was that paleoman and Arctic peoples may have used plants/veggies for medicinal purposes, as cats and other obligate carnivores do, but not otherwise as they are not food and in other than tiny amounts always do harm.
Re kidney stones/calcification - IIRC calcium is always deposited in the bones and teeth unless something makes calcium metabolism go wrong, such as pasteurized/homogenized dairy. I vaguely remember having read of something else that could cause calcium deposits in flesh, but can't remember what it is.
Having been deposited in flesh/organs, it seems that it persists for a long time unless something unusual is done to remove it - Hulda Clark's liver or kidney flush is one, IIRC there was a special kind of tea used in British medicine which also dissolved stones.
There are no reports of traditional pemmican-eaters (sub-Arctic peoples) ever having kidney stones.
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William,
The fat used by inuits was mostly blubber AFAIK and this fat contains high amounts of polyunsaturated omega 3 fatty acids (PUFAs) so that it melts actually at quite low temperatures, say less than 21°C (70°F) or so.
http://rparticle.web-p.cisti.nrc.ca/rparticle/AbstractTemplateServlet?calyLang=eng&journal=cjz&volume=57&year=1979&issue=6&msno=z79-161
So I guess that even if TD had been there he might perhaps not have stopped them from rendering it and eating it. :)
Fat from terrestrial mammals such as beef fat to make tallow contains less PUFAs and also melts at higher temperatures. Maybe these differences are of relevance.
As to pemmican my knowledge is limited, yet AFAIK berries were traditionally mixed in. Don't you think that this practice might be of some relevance too?
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William,
The fat used by inuits was mostly blubber AFAIK and this fat contains high amounts of polyunsaturated omega 3 fatty acids (PUFAs) so that it melts actually at quite low temperatures, say less than 21°C (70°F) or so.
From Wikipedia: Blubber is a thick layer of vascularized fat found under the skin of all cetaceans, pinnipeds and sirenians.
For a few men in a flimsy skin boat with short spears to successfully take a beluga must have been as dangerous as taking a polar bear, and I find it difficult to believe that it was a frequent event, so my guess is that the fat or tallow used by Inuit was mostly seal in winter and caribou in late summer. Maybe walrus too, but I've read nothing of how they were hunted.
IIRC the fat under the skin of a beluga is called muktuk, and a delicacy, so not common.
There's a photo of a beluga on an Arctic beach taken and posted by an Inuk member of canadiangunnutz.com named Otokiak - I could not find the thread, but here's one of a bear hunt:
http://www.canadiangunnutz.com/forum/showthread.php?t=402753&page=6
Fat from terrestrial mammals such as beef fat to make tallow contains less PUFAs and also melts at higher temperatures. Maybe these differences are of relevance.
Maybe so, being as we are not marine mammals, the caribou fat might be more appropriate for our needs in a cold climate.
As to pemmican my knowledge is limited, yet AFAIK berries were traditionally mixed in. Don't you think that this practice might be of some relevance too?
The historian's article on pemmican made for the Hudson's Bay Co. said that they put dried berries in pemmican only for that made for white men, thinking that white men could not live on only fat meat, but needed some carbohydrates.
There are still people who believe that, I think it depends on things still unknown.
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Water consumption may be a more important factor. I found two sources mentioning Inuits drinking large quantities of water. Here's one (unfortunately I lost the other one when the power went out):
The Inuit drink "large quantities of water (5 to 6 litres per day), characteristic of the protein-rich diet that triggers renal elimination of the products of catabolism." Consuming the Inedible: Neglected Dimensions by Jeremy MacClancy, p. 123
That's about 10.5 to 12.5 pints of water a day! :o I'm not drinking close to that much yet. That could explain my somewhat denser and bubbly urine.
Lex mentioned that he had intentionally cut back on fluid intake because of his BPH, and mine happened unconsciously when I switched to VLC, and then even more so on raw as my thirst decreased. There's also the example of wolves and other carnivores who drink copious amounts of water after feasting on flesh.
I've wondered about the berries in pemmican too. I've read other sources that say Native Americans put berries in it before the arrival of Europeans, though I didn't save them, unfortunately. Maybe a little bit of carbs gives a margin of safety against potential excessive catabolic products and their side effects in times when water becomes scarce? Water is readily available now, however, so that would be less of a factor today.
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Water consumption may be a more important factor. I found two sources mentioning Inuits drinking large quantities of water. Here's one (unfortunately I lost the other one when the power went out):
The Inuit drink "large quantities of water (5 to 6 litres per day), characteristic of the protein-rich diet that triggers renal elimination of the products of catabolism." Consuming the Inedible: Neglected Dimensions by Jeremy MacClancy, p. 123
That's about 10.5 to 12.5 pints of water a day! :o I'm not drinking close to that much yet. That could explain my somewhat denser and bubbly urine.
5 to 6 liters a day is a very very large amount indeed. When I had my recurrent kidney stone problem doctors told me to drink at least 3 liters per day. I did it for about 6 months and I had really to force myself to do it. Very unpleasant and uncomfortable. It stressed tremendously my kidneys.
Moreover it did not work at all. The stones formed exactly at the same rate as before as evidenced by the scans. Admittedly I was not on a fat and meat diet but on a standard one, yet I'm quite sceptical, Phil. Hope for you and Lex that I'm mistaken.
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I drink almost 4 litres/day, and it's because ~half of it is coffee.
Beginning ZC, I felt an urge to follow a cup of coffee with at least one cup of water, but evidently something in the body changed so that that is no longer needed.
Never had dark piss except when wintering in the Arctic, and then it must have been that the body was conserving water because the climate is so dry. This might explain why the Inuit drank so much water.
Please note that this is home-roasted/fresh organic Colombian - all others tested as either dangerous or unknown side effects.
Guess my kidneys became more efficient on ZC?
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From Wikipedia: Blubber is a thick layer of vascularized fat found under the skin of all cetaceans, pinnipeds and sirenians.
For a few men in a flimsy skin boat with short spears to successfully take a beluga must have been as dangerous as taking a polar bear, and I find it difficult to believe that it was a frequent event, so my guess is that the fat or tallow used by Inuit was mostly seal in winter and caribou in late summer. Maybe walrus too, but I've read nothing of how they were hunted.
IIRC the fat under the skin of a beluga is called muktuk, and a delicacy, so not common.
After a little bit research it appears that seal, walrus and beluga blubber is actually quite similar in fat composition, i. e. particularly rich in polyunsaturated fatty acids (PUFAs), antioxidants and selenium. Polar bear fat is also very close in composition probably because he feeds on seal too. Blubber that wraps and protects the whole animal should not be too stiff at the cold arctic waters temperature, so that the animal can move easily and this implies high PUFAs
Caribou or deer fat is similar to grassfed beef and contains only about 3 % PUFA's and can be much stiffer. There is also much less fat on terrestrial mammals as compared to marine ones.
One might thus expect and it seems indeed that the inuits priced marine mammals more than terrestrial ones even if hunting them was certainly more dangerous in particular, as you point it out William, for belugas.
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I drink almost 4 litres/day, and it's because ~half of it is coffee.
Beginning ZC, I felt an urge to follow a cup of coffee with at least one cup of water, but evidently something in the body changed so that that is no longer needed.
Never had dark piss except when wintering in the Arctic, and then it must have been that the body was conserving water because the climate is so dry. This might explain why the Inuit drank so much water.
Please note that this is home-roasted/fresh organic Colombian - all others tested as either dangerous or unknown side effects.
Guess my kidneys became more efficient on ZC?
Yes I think so. Kidneys can't function properly on a SAD diet, but this remains largely unnoticed because it takes many tens of years to show up as clearcut symptoms.
Nevertheless, I can't drink that much water (4 liters). I'm rather about 1.5 liters / day or less. IMO unless in particularly dry climates and/or when thirst urges us to do so I feel that we don't usually have to drink that much. I don't believe that paleoman (or any wild animal) drank water if he was not thirsty.
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I had swordfish this evening : one of the best fish I know. Wonderful fatty sashimi !!!
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Raw swordfish is my favourite seafood.
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I might have to look for swordfish myself next time I'm at the store. It looks quite tasty. :)
I just ate 6 4" smelts and everything seems to be sitting fine. It's great to have the whole vista of seafood as an option and not be relegated to just land animals. ;D
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Raw swordfish is my favourite seafood.
It's absolutely incredible when it's fresh.
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I let the crab at room temperature for 3 days (or more) in a box. Delicious!