Paleo Diet: Raw Paleo Diet and Lifestyle Forum
Other Raw-Animal-Food Diets (eg:- Primal Diet/Raw Version of Weston-Price Diet etc.) => Primal Diet => Topic started by: dizzybee6 on July 25, 2009, 09:33:16 am
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I have read a lot about the benefits to raw meat and how freezing it is bad. I'm curious how many people can actually set their schedule up to only eat raw fresh (never been frozen) meat. I would like to be able to eat that way but it's not necessarily feasable. Anyone have sugestions to help or how they may have delt with this. thanks ;D
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How does one even know whether store-bought meat was never frozen? I don't think there are any regulations on that like there are with fish, are there?
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I have read a lot about the benefits to raw meat and how freezing it is bad. I'm curious how many people can actually set their schedule up to only eat raw fresh (never been frozen) meat. I would like to be able to eat that way but it's not necessarily feasable. Anyone have sugestions to help or how they may have delt with this. thanks ;D
Lex do very well with frozen meat!
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I get freshly killed meat: beef and goat that is never frozen, never touched the refrigerator or freezer.
Because that is the way it is done in Manila at the wet markets. (Lucky Me)
I can attest that the taste is somewhat diluted when the beef is frozen in my home freezer.
But home frozen is not as bad as letting the fresh beef sit in the refrigerator for 3 days.
There is the sheer delight of me buying lunch time at the wet market butcher 1/4 kilo of freshly killed beef sirloin and having the butcher slice it in sashimi cuts and greedily eating it all... what a meal.
I posted freshly killed beef and wet market pics here http://www.rawpaleoforum.com/general-discussion/market-pictures/
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I just eat frozen meat. I think the claims for damage due to freezing are a bit overblown. When meat is frozen, the water in the cells freezes and expands. This can cause some of the cells to rupture and this is why we see a good bit of liquid draining from frozen meat as it thaws. I just collect the liquid and add it back into the meat before I eat it. The meat will break down a bit faster after thawing but I ususally eat it fairly soon (within a day or so) so this is not a problem for me.
Now consider the option of meat that was never frozen. Once the animal is killed, the flesh starts to break down through enzyme and bacterial action. (Freezing slows this down to almost nonexistent but doesn't stop it completely.) The warmer the meat the faster the breakdown occurs. Steaks are often "aged" for several weeks to allow time for the meat to breakdown and become more "tender".
Now, unless we are there at the moment of the kill to eat the meat 'fresh' while it is still warm, the question is, what does more damage to the nutritional value of the meat over time?: freezing to halt enzyme and bacterial breakdown of the meat (but rupturing some cellular walls, which is the whole point of chewing and digestion, BTW), OR, letting the 'fresh' meat rot and decompose at temperatures above freezing for several days or weeks until we purchase and eat it?
Freezing works for me,
Lex
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Ok, thank oufor the ino (it realy is what i was looking to learn) what about the quality of the meat. I cant always find free range meat but i also dont want to be eating meat full of all kinds of other crap either. If i buy regular store (big commercial) pork or chicken do i have to worry about something in the rawmeat making me sick? Or is it possible to eat to much fish? The last thing i need is to change my diet get sick and hve my very close minded (but sweet) hubby telling me it's because i ate raw meat.
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I just eat frozen meat. I think the claims for damage due to freezing are a bit overblown. When meat is frozen, the water in the cells freezes and expands. This can cause some of the cells to rupture and this is why we see a good bit of liquid draining from frozen meat as it thaws. I just collect the liquid and add it back into the meat before I eat it. The meat will break down a bit faster after thawing but I ususally eat it fairly soon (within a day or so) so this is not a problem for me.
Now consider the option of meat that was never frozen. Once the animal is killed, the flesh starts to break down through enzyme and bacterial action. (Freezing slows this down to almost nonexistent but doesn't stop it completely.) The warmer the meat the faster the breakdown occurs. Steaks are often "aged" for several weeks to allow time for the meat to breakdown and become more "tender".
Now, unless we are there at the moment of the kill to eat the meat 'fresh' while it is still warm, the question is, what does more damage to the nutritional value of the meat over time?: freezing to halt enzyme and bacterial breakdown of the meat (but rupturing some cellular walls, which is the whole point of chewing and digestion, BTW), OR, letting the 'fresh' meat rot and decompose at temperatures above freezing for several days or weeks until we purchase and eat it?
Freezing works for me,
Lex
The meat does not rot and decompose in a dry refrigerator. It just gently dries, and pass through different stages that can give some surprising tastes.
The only problem I can see with aged meat is the creation of AGEs. But the quantity is minimal, even after a few months.
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The meat does not rot and decompose in a dry refrigerator. It just gently dries, and pass through different stages that can give some surprising tastes. The only problem I can see with aged meat is the creation of AGEs. But the quantity is minimal, even after a few months.
Of course it decomposes. What do you think those different stages are? Cells are not growing, dividing, and respiring during the aging process, they are breaking down and decomposing. The whole point of aging meat is for the meat to slowly decompose creating a more 'tender' and 'flavorful' product. This happens as enzymes and bacteria break down the tissue. In the common vernacular it is called rotting. Dry refrigeration just slows the procress and allows more control.
There is little difference between creating High Meat and Dry Aging except speed.
Lex
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I'm still curious about how one knows whether store-bought meat was ever frozen or not, since I don't think there are any regulations on that for meat like there are with fish. So unless one has access to a quality butcher, like our good buddy goodsamaritan does, I don't see how one can be sure to avoid eating meat that has been frozen and then thawed. Here's what someone said about this elsewhere:
<<Try a butcher :) A lot of meat you get at a grocery store comes in boxes frozen and then "thawed" in the meat trays before they are put out for consumer purchase. Some grocery stores still have in-house butchers....but most that have "butchers" behind the scenes are simply people defrosting frozen meat or making simple cuts. Take Wal-Mart meat for example...it's all pre-packaged, frozen and then thawed. Ask one of the people in the back to cut you something specific....they won't be able to.>> http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080306071032AAgv8kf
Like Lex says, though, I don't think freezing meat is a big issue, though re-freezing it might be.
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..... I don't think freezing meat is a big issue, though re-freezing it might be.
Most red meat is not frozen. It is vacuum sealed in plastic and allowed to 'age' wet. This provides more finished weight when the meat is actually sold. The bursting of cells of frozen meat cause the meat to loose even more moisture (which could have been sold for $3 to $10 per lb) when thawed so they prefer not to freeze.
I often refreeze my meat mixture and haven't had a problem. To save time I'll thaw enough food for 2 weeks, mix everything up, and then repackage in Ziploc bags in single serving portions. I'll leave a couple of day's worth in the refrigerator and refreeze the rest. Each day I just remove a package from the freezer and set it out to thaw for several hours before I eat. The only difference I notice is that refrozen meat is a bit juicer after it thaws than unfrozen meat.
I also use this method when traveling for short durations of time - say 1 to 3 days. I'll premix, refreeze in single portions sizes, and then pack the frozen meals in a small well insulated lunch cooler which I carry with me. When I get to the hotel/motel I'll put it in the room refrigerator if there is one, but on occasion where there is no refrigerator, the meat is usually fine in the lunch cooler for 3 days or so before becoming too 'flavorful' for my liking.
On longer trips I take a few days worth of raw meat and then pack enough pemmican for the balance of the trip.
Lex
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Thanks for that info, Lex. That certainly makes things easier. Sounds like the strong warnings not to refreeze meats are just more modern hysteria. Not surprising.
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"Once the animal is killed, the flesh starts to break down through enzyme and bacterial action."
here's a hypothetical scenario:
~ i order ground beef from slankers
~ the pieces of meat that will eventually get ground to fulfill my order are not frozen in the slaughterhouse
~ somehow the "fresh" beef carcass makes it to the hands of slankers butchers
~ the butchers cut & sort out the various primal cuts
~ some1 grinds the specific primal cuts that are used 4 ground beef
~ some1 vacuum seals the still "fresh" ground beef by weight
~ some1 puts the vacuum sealed packages in a freezer
~ some time later, some1 ships those packages to my address
question:
how would 1 compare the nutritional value in the above scenario w/ the following?
an alternative scenario:
~ i buy a local "fresh" primal cut of beef at a local meat mkt on the precise day it's delivered to this mkt
~ i dry age it in the coldest area of my fridge (short of freezing) for 0-6 days after rubbing it w/ 3 dried catalysts (black pepper, ginger, garlic)
it so happens that the local beef not only smells & tastes much better, to me, than its prefrozen counterpart; i also enjoy the following 2 bonuses:
~ all the pufa's & other goodies that are naturally hosted by the undamaged cell membranes, which are esp good for the brain, eyes, nervous system, etc.
~ none of the peroxidation that results from grinding & freezing > thawing
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what's AGEs?
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what's AGEs?
Advanced Glycation Endproducts are formed in our bodies, wrongly, when a speck of sugar attaches to a speck of protein in the absence of a specific enzyme.
IIRC they cause those brown spots that old folks have on their skin, and they are said to be on all organs.
They are bad.
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Of course it decomposes. What do you think those different stages are? Cells are not growing, dividing, and respiring during the aging process, they are breaking down and decomposing. The whole point of aging meat is for the meat to slowly decompose creating a more 'tender' and 'flavorful' product. This happens as enzymes and bacteria break down the tissue. In the common vernacular it is called rotting. Dry refrigeration just slows the procress and allows more control.
There is little difference between creating High Meat and Dry Aging except speed.
Lex
What is important is the taste of the meat, and the fact is that aged meat tastes generally much better than defrozen meat!
Our taste bud has the ability to sense nutrients (and its availability) in food. Defrozen meat losts a part of its nutrients because of the sudden damage of the cell membranes. Aging is as you say slower, and some nutrients are made more available during the process (thanks to the work of the enzymes), while probably others are lost. AGEs, protein degradation and bacterial proliferation are what makes the taste of the meat to change with time.
Instincto pretends that aged meat is easier to digest than fresh meat. I don't really see any difference for myself.
I don't know what is the best to eat fresh or aged?
But I find that aged meat tastier.
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The meat does not rot and decompose in a dry refrigerator. It just gently dries, and pass through different stages that can give some surprising tastes.
The only problem I can see with aged meat is the creation of AGEs. But the quantity is minimal, even after a few months.
Do you have a scientific paper to show me that explains that?
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I don't know what is the best to eat fresh or aged?
But I find that aged meat tastier.
My comments were made to show the silliness of the argument that frozen meat is 'damaged' compared to meat that has never been frozen. The truth is that freezing creates a mechanical damage by rupturing some of the cells through the freezing and expanding of the liquid in the cells, and meat that has never been frozen is in a continuous state of decomposition which damages the cells as well. So you pays your money and you takes your choice. I don't see much difference between the two from a damage/nutrition stand point. I'm sure that a biochem lab could measure some differences but from a practical point of view it is a mute point.
I also prefer meat that has gone slightly south. I often let my meat sit in a warm place for 8 to 10 hours before eating it. It will even take on a sour fermented taste on a warm summer day. My guess is that well aged ('ripe') and decomposing meat made up the majority of our diets in paleo times. I also expect we ate leftovers from kills made by other animals as well. Since there were no processing plants, refrigerators, or freezers, most of what we ate would be in some stage of decomposition - and it would decompose rather rapidly during the warmer months. Take a dog or cat that has been hit by a car. During the summer months it becomes bloated within 24 hours, and the flesh has turned to liquid within 2 to 3 days. Lunch! Yum!
The hysteria over bacteria and 'germs' is a modern phenomenon. Our species did just fine without antibacterial detergents and sprays for millions of years. The environmental bacteria gave us strong immune systems. Today our children suffer from all sorts of problems created by our sanitized environments.
Lex
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"The hysteria over bacteria and 'germs' is a modern phenomenon. Our species did just fine without antibacterial detergents and sprays for millions of years. The environmental bacteria gave us strong immune systems. Today our children suffer from all sorts of problems created by our sanitized environments."
yes, yes!
when it comes to freezing, however: wouldn't freezing be just another way of sterilizing?
~ lex eats prefrozen meat -- which, incidentally, never gets frozen immediately after the animal is killed -- as a means to avoid eating rotten, dry aged, or high meat {*}
~ some people, including gedgaudas & the usda, recommend that the meat 1 is planning to eat raw should be kept frozen for 2 weeks to thoroughly kill all germs
* {thawed meat -- if brought back to the freezer in its unopened bag (as happens to unsold meat at a farmers mkt, which gets refrozen & taken to the next mkt) or if rebagged & refrozen at home -- is actually in a state of wet aging > it becomes the right culture environment for further peroxidation & age's}
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when it comes to freezing, however: wouldn't freezing be just another way of sterilizing?
~ some people, including gedgaudas & the usda, recommend that the meat 1 is planning to eat raw should be kept frozen for 2 weeks to thoroughly kill all germs
This is a common misunderstanding. Most bacteria are not killed by freezing. Some are killed by the same mechanical action of expanding ice crystals rupturing their cell walls, but just as only a small portion of the cells of meat are ruptured by freezing, so too only a small fraction of the bacteria are killed by this action. Most bacteria just go into a state of suspended animation until the temperatures are warm enough for them to pick up where they left off and continue to grow and multiply.
Think about this. A common medical procedure today is in vitro fertilization where both the egg and the sperm are frozen in liquid nitrogen for extended periods of time, then thawed and united to create new life. The egg and sperm are both the equivalent of single cell entities. If freezing caused the damage to tissue and single cell organism like bacteria as claimed, then in vitro fertilization would not work.
Larger and more complex organisms like parasites ARE often killed by freezing. The time frame I've read as safe is 6 weeks, not 2 weeks, but I suppose the 'experts' vary on this point and it probably depends on the temperature as well as the parasite involved.
Most enzyme action is drastically slowed or stopped at low temperatures, so freezing actually keeps the meat closer to the ‘fresh killed’ state than refrigeration alone. Is this good or bad? You’ll have to make your own call on that.
Lex
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it becomes the right culture environment for further peroxidation & age's}
How do you reckon that it cultures Advanced Glycation Endproducts without glycation?
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Do you have a scientific paper to show me that explains that?
AGEs creation in food is a normal and common process. We are adapted to the consumption of a small amount of AGEs that we can find in raw (fresh and aged) food. Indeed, we even have receptors for AGEs (called RAGEs).
Our ability to eliminate them is quickly overloaded with cooked food.
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AGEs creation in food is a normal and common process.
It's my understanding that creation of AGEs requires addition of some kind of sugar to the food. No sugar, no glycation (glycation is from the word "glucose" AKA sugar).
There is no sugar in raw meat.
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http://www.rawfoodexplained.com/selection-and-storage-of-foods-part-i/does-freezing-harm-foods.html :
"When a food is frozen, its water expands. This causes two immediately destructive occurrences:
1. The cell walls burst and the cell contents are spilled due to the internal water expansion; hence the cell's life is lost.
2. Oxidation occurs where air reaches the frozen foodstuff; hence nutrients are lost.
In addition to bursting the cell walls of foods and thus allowing oxidation to occur, two other things happen:
1. When the cells burst, certain of their organelles release self-destruct enzymes called lysosomes. While these enzymes are not active during freezing (and some are even destroyed), those which remain intact will speedily decompose the cell contents upon thawing. Lysosomes are in cells for the purpose of self-destructing dead cells so the dead cells will not create problems for the organism.
2. Whether oxidized or deranged by its own lysosomes, dead cells become soil for bacteria and fungi when the temperature becomes favorable again—bacteria are active at just above freezing up to temperatures around 160 degrees.
Oxidation of burst cells is the foremost cause of food deterioration during frozen storage. Frozen foods never taste as good to an unperverted palate as their fresh counterparts, even if no additives and pre-freezing treatments are employed. This is, of course, due to their deterioration while frozen.
While microorganisms such as bacteria are also inert during freezing, they become active just as soon as they are thawed. Hence, frozen foods, once removed from the freezer, decompose much more rapidly than do fresh foods. As mentioned, this is because of the bursting of the cell walls of the food when its own water expands and because of the subsequent decomposition through oxidation, self-destruct lysosomes and the final cleanup crew, bacteria.
It is well to repeat that food is rapidly destroyed when cell walls are burst, whether by cooking, blending, juicing, mashing or freezing. Oxidation occurs when cell contents are exposed to the air, and if temperatures are favorable, the cells' own lysosomes self-destruct its components."
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"there's no sugar in raw meat"
???
there's glycogen in muscle
here's what my dictionary says about glycogen:
"a substance deposited in bodily tissues as a store of carbohydrates. It is a polysaccharide that forms glucose on hydrolysis."
glycogen > glucose
my dict says about hydrolysis:
"the chemical breakdown of a compound due to reaction with water"
wet aging > water > hydrolysis
thawing > water > hydrolysis
wet aging > fermentation
high meating > fermentation
there's general info on age's here:
http://andersonclan.us/andersonclan_top/ages.html (http://andersonclan.us/andersonclan_top/ages.html)
re. the freezing of meat, you need to read the following book excerpts (such as pp. 18-20, 43, 52-64 etc):
http://books.google.com/books?hl=en&id=6ry7pDNNZ6gC&dq=%22freezing+effects+on+food%22&printsec=frontcover&source=web&ots=Hv4Do9pKs5&sig=4hMbzYDZlxlvrBGafOxx5pOiRI0&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=5&ct=result (http://books.google.com/books?hl=en&id=6ry7pDNNZ6gC&dq=%22freezing+effects+on+food%22&printsec=frontcover&source=web&ots=Hv4Do9pKs5&sig=4hMbzYDZlxlvrBGafOxx5pOiRI0&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=5&ct=result)
the book title = freezing effects on food quality
its 1st article "fundamental aspects of the freezing process" explains in detail what the author calls "a loss of overall quality"
"meat is frequently frozen, not to produce a high-quality product, but for commercial or domestic expediency"(p.52)
the article on "red meats" says:
"the dominant preslaughter biological factor influencing meat quality is muscle glycogen ... the glucose content of fresh meat is the critical factor determining the relationship between microflora development & the time to spoilage" (p.55)
under "oxidation" {of red meat} (pp.60-1)
the author says:
"grinding of meat prior to freezing ... the myriad of cut surfaces, exposing lipid-containing cell membranes to air, ensures the initiation of oxidative rancidity"
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It's my understanding that creation of AGEs requires addition of some kind of sugar to the food. No sugar, no glycation (glycation is from the word "glucose" AKA sugar).
There is no sugar in raw meat.
Yes there is sugar in raw meat. Cooking meat creates much more AGEs than aging meat.
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http://www.rawfoodexplained.com/selection-and-storage-of-foods-part-i/does-freezing-harm-foods.html :
"When a food is frozen, its water expands. This causes two immediately destructive occurrences:
(...)"
Thanks Fred, very interesting ! GC Burger told us about their experiments with their pigs left outside in freezing weather. There was frozen apples on the ground and they let the pigs eat it. They showed no sign of troubles as long as the apples were still frozen, thaw happening in the pigs mouths. But once the temperature rose over 0°C, the apples thawed on the ground before the pigs ate it. Then they showed some troubles - GC Burger didn't elaborate and we didn't ask him what kind of troubles, but here's what he told us, concluding that it's probably OK to eat frozen food as long as thawing happens inside the mouth !
Francois
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Yes there is sugar in raw meat. Cooking meat creates much more AGEs than aging meat.
No, there is no sugar in raw meat, otherwise it would taste sweet.
We do not cook.
See here: http://andersonclan.us/andersonclan_top/ages.html
2.3 Glycations and AGEs, Defined
All the diverse sugars, and other carbohydrates we eat, are digested to simple sugars and absorbed into the blood stream. These blood sugars, glucose, galactose and fructose are reactive reducing agents. That is, they are capable of bonding to protein or lipid (fat) molecules, usually on an amine or a lysine group. So, like any fuel, they can be dangerous.
Glycation occurs when a reducing sugar molecule bonds to a protein or lipid (fatty acid) molecule without the controlling action of an enzyme which would normally control where the sugar bonds and its orientation. This puts the sugar molecule in the “wrong place,” on the protein or lipid molecule, thus forming a mis-shaped molecule our bodies cannot metabolize or dispose of easily.
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No, there is no sugar in raw meat, otherwise it would taste sweet.
You are free to believe what you want man!
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No, there is no sugar in raw meat, otherwise it would taste sweet.
Yes there are trace amounts of carbs in meat. Try horse meat and you'll see, that it is lightly sweet
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No, there is no sugar in raw meat, otherwise it would taste sweet.
We do not cook.
See here: http://andersonclan.us/andersonclan_top/ages.html
2.3 Glycations and AGEs, Defined
All the diverse sugars, and other carbohydrates we eat, are digested to simple sugars and absorbed into the blood stream. These blood sugars, glucose, galactose and fructose are reactive reducing agents. That is, they are capable of bonding to protein or lipid (fat) molecules, usually on an amine or a lysine group. So, like any fuel, they can be dangerous.
Glycation occurs when a reducing sugar molecule bonds to a protein or lipid (fatty acid) molecule without the controlling action of an enzyme which would normally control where the sugar bonds and its orientation. This puts the sugar molecule in the “wrong place,” on the protein or lipid molecule, thus forming a mis-shaped molecule our bodies cannot metabolize or dispose of easily.
What about AGEs and protein
http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2001/07/14/insulin-part-one.aspx
Glycation
Everyone knows that oxygen causes damage, but unfortunately the press has not been as kind to publicize glycation. Glycation is the same as oxidation except substitute the word glucose. When you glycate something you combine it with glucose. Glucose combines with anything else really; it‘s a very sticky molecule.
Just take sugar on your fingers. It‘s very sticky. It sticks specifically to proteins. So the glycation of proteins is extremely important. If it sticks around a while it produces what are called advanced glycated end products (A.G.E.s).
That acronym is not an accident. If you can turn over, or re-manufacture, the protein that‘s good, and it increases the rate of protein turnover if you are lucky. Glycation damages the protein to the extent that white blood cells will come around and gobble it up and get rid of it, so then you have to produce more, putting more of a strain on your ability to repair and maintain your body.
That is the best alternative; the worst alternative is when those proteins get glycated that can‘t turn over very rapidly, like collagen, or like a protein that makes up nerve tissue. These proteins cannot be gotten rid of, so the protein accumulates, and the A.G.E.s accumulate and continue to damage.
That includes the collagen that makes up the matrix of your arteries. A.G.E.s are so bad that we know that there are receptors for A.G.E.s, hundreds of receptors, for every macrophage. They are designed to try to get rid of those A.G.E.s, but what happens when a macrophage combines with an A.G.E. product?
It sets up an inflammatory reaction. You eat a diet that promotes elevated glucose, and you produce increased glycated proteins and A.G.E.s, you are increasing your rate of inflammation of any kind. You get down to the roots, including arthritis and headaches.
When you start putting people on a diet to remedy all of this, patients who used to have horrible headaches or shoulder pains don‘t have them anymore.
Glycated proteins make a person very pro-inflammatory, so we age and, at least partially, accumulate damage by oxidation. One of the most important types of tissues that oxygenate is the fatty component, the lipid, especially the poly-unsaturated fatty acids, and they turn rancid and glycate.
The term for glycation in the food industry is carmelization. It is used all the time to make caramel. So the way we age is that we turn rancid and we carmelize. It‘s very true, and that is what gets most of us. If that doesn‘t get us, then the genetic causes of aging will, because every cell in your body has genetic programs to commit suicide. There are various theories for why this is, one being that if they didn‘t, virtually every cell in your body would eventually turn cancerous.
Whether those so-called applopatic genes developed as a means to prevent cancer or not is open to speculation, but it is a good theory. We know that all cancer cells have turned off the mechanisms for apoptosis, which is the medical term for chemical suicide. So we know that it plays a role.
and what about people who eat fruit (for hydration :o) and AGEs?
Nicola
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Looks really depressing, but the fact is that enough of us have used pemmican for health and healing; it does not make us sick and there are no symptoms of AGEs ALEsm or any other scary stuff.
We can go only so far with hypothesis or theory until we have nothing at all that is fit to eat.
So what do you suggest we eat?
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i wouldn't call it depressing but challenging
{{depression, incidentally, may or may not be a sign of lack of certain nutrients; check out gardgaudas' book or listen to her free podcasts on itunes, 2 of which radio shows are on depression & anxiety
http://www.primalbody-primalmind.com/ (http://www.primalbody-primalmind.com/)}}
myself i try to use the help provided by my taste buds, my physiology in general, my insights, the environmental resources i have access to, my studies, anecdotal data from other persons.....
& keep making adjustments as needed if i find myself fallen into a rut
what to eat?
my experience suggests primal cuts of fresh local grassfed beef which has been dry aged at home for 0-6 days
nothing ground or prefrozen; nothing cooked other than the very occasional soup; no fruits or veggies either
so far this is working best for me
but, of course, every1 = an individual > some1's food = some1 else's poison
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something else i can mention:
al sears' pace program -- short events of progressively intensifying interval training + calisthenics
http://alsearsmd.com/pace/ (http://alsearsmd.com/pace/)
it works for me, but, again, every1 = an individual
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yet another, truly helpful, i believe, thing:
read the 2nd article by lichtfield on the mindful physiology site, the 1 on "good & bad breathing"
http://www.bp.edu/ (http://www.bp.edu/)
the author provides a whole list of deleterious side effects of what he calls "bad breathing" -- which, this may surprise you, include various digestive troubles
further, he suggests simple breathing mechanics items, 1 of which is bag breathing
in my case, even w/o doing any bag breathing, just learning of these things turned out to be a +
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nothing ground or prefrozen; nothing cooked other than the very occasional soup; no fruits or veggies either
so far this is working best for me
but, of course, every1 = an individual > some1's food = some1 else's poison
What kind of trouble do you have when you eat ground meat ?
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Looks really depressing, but the fact is that enough of us have used pemmican for health and healing; it does not make us sick and there are no symptoms of AGEs ALEsm or any other scary stuff.
We can go only so far with hypothesis or theory until we have nothing at all that is fit to eat.
So what do you suggest we eat?
I repeat : there is very little quantity of AGEs and ALEs in raw food, even aged for several months, (compared to cooked food), and our body is equipped to deal with this tiny amount of AGEs. So nothing to worry about AGEs as long as you eat raw food, and avoid (or severely limit) carbs.
Pemmican is a great food if the fat is rendered at low temp and the meat is dried at low temp.
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I repeat : there is very little quantity of AGEs and ALEs in raw food, even aged for several months
Have you got any proof that there is little AGEs in high meats? I don't say that you are wrong, but I'm just curious
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Have you got any proof that there is little AGEs in high meats? I don't say that you are wrong, but I'm just curious
Of course : AGEs are precisely what gives cooked meat its taste, texture, aroma, color, etc. No such dramatic changes occur during aging.
http://www.beyondveg.com/tu-j-l/raw-cooked/raw-cooked-1b.shtml :
"Browning, aromas, and flavors. So-called "Amadori products" are the result of early Maillard reactions. Then, brown pigments are created, giving the characteristic color of some cooked foods like bread crust, as well as volatile compounds which give various odors such as roasting aromas. More than 2,000 volatile compounds have been identified (and certainly many more exist) [Finot et al. 1990]. (Note: It may be that Maillard reactions are not responsible for all browning that occurs during cooking and aging; oxidation may also be responsible. For instance, meat browns quite easily despite the minuscule amounts of carbohydrates present with which to react with proteins.) "
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I repeat : there is very little quantity of AGEs and ALEs in raw food, even aged for several months, (compared to cooked food), and our body is equipped to deal with this tiny amount of AGEs. So nothing to worry about AGEs as long as you eat raw food, and avoid (or severely limit) carbs.
Pemmican is a great food if the fat is rendered at low temp and the meat is dried at low temp.
I asked Lex a few questions about what this Dr. Mercola mentioned in the link on "Insulin" - one of my questions was "would the glycogen (protein) metabolism produce AGE's"?
Of course it would. Our bodies make and use glucose from a variety of foods (and our own body tissues if we are fasting), as glucose is needed for our survival. Any time a substance is metabolized in the presence of glucose AGE's are produced. Since our blood and tissues have a constant supply of glucose, AGE's are constantly being produced. AGE's are just another waste product. The best you can do is live a lifestyle that keeps blood glucose stable at a NORMAL level. My BG stays around 90 to 100 all the time. People who eat a high carb diet often have BG spikes of 200 to 300 that can last for several hours. Much larger amounts of AGE's would be produced at these high BG levels. I don't try to artificially control my BG level. I just try to eat a diet that is low in carbs, keep my BG level as constant as possible, and I let my body decide how much it needs.
Nicola
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GC Burger told us about their experiments with their pigs left outside in freezing weather. There was frozen apples on the ground and they let the pigs eat it. They showed no sign of troubles as long as the apples were still frozen, thaw happening in the pigs mouths. But once the temperature rose over 0°C, the apples thawed on the ground before the pigs ate it. Then they showed some troubles - GC Burger didn't elaborate and we didn't ask him what kind of troubles, but here's what he told us, concluding that it's probably OK to eat frozen food as long as thawing happens inside the mouth !
Francois
... and my son always made fun of me for eating food out of the freezer rather than thawing, blending or cooking. It seems I did something right without knowing! I wonder what the scientific mechanism might be to make thawing in the mouth better?
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What about AGEs and protein
http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2001/07/14/insulin-part-one.aspx
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Whether those so-called applopatic genes developed as a means to prevent cancer or not is open to speculation, but it is a good theory. We know that all cancer cells have turned off the mechanisms for apoptosis, which is the medical term for chemical suicide. So we know that it plays a role.
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and what about people who eat fruit (for hydration :o) and AGEs?
Nicola
I used to eat fruit for hydration. I felt and looked horrible. It's a good recipe for a swift race to death. I wasn't eating bread or beans or fried food or soda or anything like that either.
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I used to eat fruit for hydration. I felt and looked horrible. It's a good recipe for a swift race to death. I wasn't eating bread or beans or fried food or soda or anything like that either.
Water is more appropriate for hydration, and meat for nourishing...
Modern fruits are poison, and wild fruits are inedible...
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I asked Lex a few questions about what this Dr. Mercola mentioned in the link on "Insulin" - one of my questions was "would the glycogen (protein) metabolism produce AGE's"?
Of course it would.
Nicola
AGE production is described as happening in the absence of an enzyme.
It makes no sense that this enzyme is always absent, so it seems that AGE creation is evidence of deficiency disease.
Rawpaleofood is supposed to prevent enzyme deficiency, so should also prevent AGE creation.
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Water is more appropriate for hydration, and meat for nourishing...
Modern fruits are poison, and wild fruits are inedible...
Good joke, Fred ! I suppose you know that everything becomes a poison when eaten in excessive amount and that even a noxious chemical such as DHMO (dihydrogen monoxide, see http://www.dhmo.org/facts.html) can be beneficial to our health when taken in limited quantity.
What about modern foodstuffs such as pemmican made of the meat of modern animals like beef, pig or sheep ? How do you know when you’ve eaten enough of it, at which point any additional amount will become noxious to you ?
Cheers
Francois, omnivore
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AGE production is described as happening in the absence of an enzyme.
It makes no sense that this enzyme is always absent, so it seems that AGE creation is evidence of deficiency disease.
Rawpaleofood is supposed to prevent enzyme deficiency, so should also prevent AGE creation.
AGEs is the result of the non-enzymatic reaction between sugars and free amino groups of proteins. It does not need enzyme to be produced.
http://lowcarb4u.blogspot.com/2009/07/glycosylation-and-glycation.html
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Good joke, Fred ! I suppose you know that everything becomes a poison when eaten in excessive amount and that even a noxious chemical such as DHMO (dihydrogen monoxide, see http://www.dhmo.org/facts.html) can be beneficial to our health when taken in limited quantity.
What about modern foodstuffs such as pemmican made of the meat of modern animals like beef, pig or sheep ? How do you know when you’ve eaten enough of it, at which point any additional amount will become noxious to you ?
Cheers
Francois, omnivore
You're right, DHMO can be beneficial for some :P :
"Can using DHMO improve my marriage?
This is a popular myth, but one which is also actually supported by a number of scientific facts. Dihydrogen Monoxide plays an instrumental role in the centers of the brain associated with feelings of emotional attachment and love. Married couples have found that regular ingestion of DHMO can improve their marriage-related activities, while couples that never ingest DHMO often find that their marriage suffers as well. "
Pemmican is such a concentrate food that there is no way to overeat it.
Fat, contrary to sugar, is VERY satiating and nourishing.
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Pemmican is such a concentrate food that there is no way to overeat it.
Just like raviolis, then ? ;D
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Just like raviolis, then ? ;D
Well, I have already overate raviolis several times. Never pemmican!
So actually no! ;)