Paleo Diet: Raw Paleo Diet and Lifestyle Forum
Raw Paleo Diet to Suit You => Carnivorous / Zero Carb Approach => Topic started by: Michael on September 17, 2009, 09:34:31 pm
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Hey guys,
I know this has been discussed before but can't find the information I need from the archives.
How much meat and fat are you eating on a daily basis? Also, what ratio of protein/fat does this constitute?
I'm suddenly thinking that the 1kg of beef/lamb and 250g+ of suet I'm eating daily is way too much bearing in mind 1g protein = 4 cal and 1g fat = 9 cal !!! Am I right thinking that's over 6000 calories?!?!
As well as enlightening me with your own daily rations - can someone please point me in the direction of Lex's previous calculations on this subject? Thanks
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For the past several years Lex has been eating meat and fat only with a ratio of 68% fat to 32% protein. His 150 g of protein and 150 g of fat yields around 2000 calories daily. In terms of weight that would be two pounds of fatty meat.
My recent dietary intake was more or less in the above ranges.
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Yikes..according to my envelope calculations, 400-500g of meat will give me 90 or so g of protein which is the daily requirement for an active man. That's standard nutrition though..may well be different for Paleo.
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Thanks for the information rawlion. That's very helpful and it appears that I'm not eating way too much in that case. My brain seems to be misfiring a little this week! I was foolishly thinking that a 1kg cut of meat was split (depending on the cut) between, say, 80% protein / 20% fat and would therefore be 800g protein / 200g fat. Doh! -[ I guess I wasn't really thinking at all! ;D
Now, I guess I just need to somehow find out or work out the fat content of my meat and make a few calculations to realise how much suet to add to find a 68%/32% fat to protein ratio.
I'd still be interested in the quantities others are eating?
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Maybe 2-3 pounds of meat as well as a chunk of suet (1/4 pound?) throughout the average day.
I find that a lot of mental work results in an increased need to eat rather than physical exertion. Once I start getting unfocused I need to eat another meal or I just stay that way when thinking hard.
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I'm currently eating 600 grams of food (that's 1.3 lbs) total in one meal per day and I find this to be more than enough. Due to an elevated HBA1c of 6% I dropped protein to 85g and raised fat to 210g. Total calories around 2,200. I will have another HBA1c test done in December or January to see if glycation products drop. I can say that in one month BG has dropped from an average of 100 to around 85 so I expect A1c will show improvement as well.
The reason I'm doing this is that A1c and blood levels of vitamin D seem to be more closely linked to death from heart and artery disease than HDL and LDL. From what I've read, people with low levels of Vit D and an A1c level of 7% have a 19% chance of dying over a 12 month period. People with adequate levels of vit D and a 5% A1c level the mortality rate drops to 3% in a 12 month period. Vitamin D also plays a critical role in maintaining bone density.
Sooooooo, I'm back on the high fat protocol but with a twist. This time I'm controlling protein and by extension the opportunity for gluconeogenisis of excess protein, and just making up the lost calories from fat. Current diet is about 85% of calories from fat.
In addition, I'm stripping down to gym shorts and getting as close to full body sun exposure as possible for about 45 minutes during mid day. This is how our body is designed to manufacture its own vitamin D which I prefer over taking supplements. I will have to increase the exposure time during the winter due to the lower intensity of the sun. I'll be requesting a vitamin D level test at my December/January visit to the doc as well.
I suppose that now that the cat is out of the bag I should probably post this to my journal as well.
Lex
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I eat about 1 kg (0,8-1,2) of organ-meats (mainly) and muscle-meats. Apart from tongues they are quite lean. Re suet - over 300 g.
I calculated that I usually eat 130-180 g of protein and 300-400 g of fat.
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I never eat more than 1kg of raw meat a day, usually quite a bit less.
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I usually eat about 250-300g meat (steak usually) and about 150g suet (v little i know but then again I'm a 5"2 female, 109 lbs), and thats with not much exercise. Once i get back in the habit of doing more weightlifting and sprinting I'm sure it will be more.
I usually log what i eat into fitday, the average for the past couple of weeks has been about 1,600 calories, 80% fat 20% protein.
Some days I have 85% fat like lex, especially since i finally found a reliable source of grassfed suet which i find really tasty.
I average about 75g protein a day, but I have no idea if this is too much for my height/weight. But if I were to eat less my stats would probably be something like 90% fat at least....hmmmm
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Id say my wife and i eat about 2-4 pounds of leanish meat a day (each) and then mabye a lamb sausage or two. We dont count anything, just eat what we want. We go by a 'how do you feel' approach. If im hungry ill eat whatever I have. Ill go weeks on lean cuts then feel like i want something fattier so ill get some lamb for that week. when im not feeling like eating lamb ill get whatever other animal i feel like eating.. its been working pretty great so far.. like losing the fear of dying from parasites ive lost the fear of dying from protein poisoning haha.
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Thanks to all for sharing. That's all very helpful and interesting. Everyone seems to be eating quite varying amounts and ratios.
I think I'm going to cut down on the amount of meat I'm consuming since, like you Razmatazz, recently securing my reliable source of grass-fed raw suet. Over the last few weeks since starting on the suet, I've noticed that my muscle definition has lessened and suspect I've been consuming too many calories overall.
Sad as it sounds, I've now written a little spreadsheet to help me calculate suitable quantities and ratios. I'm going to experiment with a regime similar to Lex's in that I'll be aiming for 85% calories as fat. With the cuts of meat I'm using, I calculate that this will mean consuming 400-450g of meat per day with 140-195g added suet providing 2200+ kcal. I'm 5'11 and 170lbs and suspect I'll be a little hungry on this but will adjust accordingly.
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Well I'm an athlete with rigourous training and over 220 pounds of very lean body to feed and I eat probably 3plus pounds of fatty meat a day. And I'm getting leaner.
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I am finding out that those who eat raw meat & fat on the zerocarb forum are the members with problems - those that change and try cooking have all reported better digestion...
Are you all just eating raw meat or have you had both (not just a few days!) and can say for shore, that things feel and work better with raw meat? How many of you have been eating cooked meat and fat (like those members on zerocarb) and can report better digestion with raw meat and fat (from start to finish + mental health)?
And for those of you eating 1 meal at night - how can that be healthy; cooked or raw...
We do not have one study which will support eating raw meat vs. cooked meat showing digestion from stomach to annal.
Nicola
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I am still experimenting with different things but here is what I have so far.
I eat my cooked meat rare or very rare. It appears to digest easier than well cooked.
I eat egg yolks, internal organs, and suet raw. I particularly found that raw liver goes down way easier than cooked liver.
I also do not consume loads of butter anymore, only when suet is not available.
Due to problems with digestion I eat 3-4 smaller meals a day. Big meal will just sit in my stomach forever. If a person has strong stomach big meal should not be an issue. But for me it is. So I do what works best for me.
I also include 1-2 fruits per day especially when I workout.
My goal is to gain weight.
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And I'm also browsing ZC forum time to time, especially those who are struggling to gain weight. I have not ran across a successful story yet. If you do please let me know.
Thanks.
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I am finding out that those who eat raw meat & fat on the zerocarb forum are the members with problems - those that change and try cooking have all reported better digestion...
Are you all just eating raw meat or have you had both (not just a few days!) and can say for shore, that things feel and work better with raw meat? How many of you have been eating cooked meat and fat (like those members on zerocarb) and can report better digestion with raw meat and fat (from start to finish + mental health)?
And for those of you eating 1 meal at night - how can that be healthy; cooked or raw...
We do not have one study which will support eating raw meat vs. cooked meat showing digestion from stomach to annal.
Nicola
Eating one meal in the evening allows time to detox. Some of us need a lot of that. I suspect that those who have difficulty with this (intermittent fasting) are not eating enough pure animal fat with their meat.
We do have one study showing that raw food digests better: Kouchakoff, Switzerland ~1930
Most of my raw meat is pemmican, which is very thoroughly dried (jerky) and does not taste raw.
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There are several studies showing quite clearly that raw meat digests better than cooked meat. Here's two of them:-
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1897402
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3748129?ordinalpos=2&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_DefaultReportPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum
taken from:-
http://www.beyondveg.com/tu-j-l/raw-cooked/raw-cooked-2a.shtml
The ZC forum is dominated by absurd dogma and propaganda. Their anti-carb emphasis is more religious-based than anything.
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My goal is to gain weight.
I remember reading in one of Ori Hofmekler's books about an advice to not mix nuts with honey or with carbs because it makes you fat.
You can try that (the opposite).
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I remember reading in one of Ori Hofmekler's books about an advice to not mix nuts with honey or with carbs because it makes you fat.
You can try that (the opposite).
I gained lean muscle years ago, when any other way I had tried before that hadn't worked, by soaking nuts, peeling them, blending them with my rejuvelac and culturing them. Honey was allowable by that diet (Living Food LifestyleTM), but I didn't eat honey.
I'm probably averaging daily now about four to five ounces of lean meat (buffalo, chicken, pork, fish, goat etc). My cats eat several ounces each also. No other human in my house touches any kind of meat. I think I might eat more meat and feel more well if I had a larger number raw meat eaters here.
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I am finding out that those who eat raw meat & fat on the zerocarb forum are the members with problems - those that change and try cooking have all reported better digestion...
Are you all just eating raw meat or have you had both (not just a few days!) and can say for shore, that things feel and work better with raw meat? How many of you have been eating cooked meat and fat (like those members on zerocarb) and can report better digestion with raw meat and fat (from start to finish + mental health)?
I ate only cooked meat for a couple weeks. I then switched to raw and had a tremendous boost to my well-being including digestion and mental health. I've been eating only raw meat for the last 10 weeks or so and have nothing but good to say about it.
The ZC forum is dominated by absurd dogma and propaganda. Their anti-carb emphasis is more religious-based than anything.
I don't know if I'd have said it so bluntly but I tend to agree. You either agree with the common mindset or you're treading dangerous ground.
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An update for those interested with regard to the original thread subject:
I have now been following my reduced meat/fat regime for about 5 weeks and must say that it's going extremely well. As planned, I have been eating nothing but fatty beef or lamb with suet and a few herbs for flavouring. I calculate out ratios to give me around 2100-2200 calories per day, 85% calories by fat and keep protein around 85-100g per day.
This has been a huge reduction in quantities but, incredibly, has worked a treat. I'm satisfied on 2 small meals a day (breakfast and evening meal), go 12 hours at work without food and without blood-sugar problems, have much improved digestive powers and am noticing a much improved lean and muscular physique. My skin has also been improving with dryness reducing, dandruff disappearing and hives no longer a problem. Of course, some of these improvements are related to going zero-carb but many are more due to the quantity changes. And all this after following a RAF diet for almost 9 years!!
It's also proving much easier as I'm able to prepare 5 days worth of food within about 1.5hrs preparation (incl cleaning up). I bag up my 'meals' in airtight Aloksaks and keep it in the fridge with the joyous knowledge that I have no further food preparation or cleaning up tasks for 5 whole days!! :)
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And I'm also browsing ZC forum time to time, especially those who are struggling to gain weight. I have not ran across a successful story yet. If you do please let me know.
Thanks.
Someone was pleased that she grew a bum on ZC. Name of thread forgotten, but you could ask.
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I am finding out that those who eat raw meat & fat on the zerocarb forum are the members with problems - those that change and try cooking have all reported better digestion...
Well I know that's not completely true, because I am a member on the ZC forum, I eat raw meat and fat, and I am improving. I also find raw meat digests better for me, though some cuts of beef are tough when raw--but even they digest more easily raw than cooked. Who are the members that you're talking about?
Are you all just eating raw meat or have you had both (not just a few days!) and can say for shore, that things feel and work better with raw meat?....
I recently went to one of the ZC group's "meat ups" and joined in a large meal of cooked meats. I did not get the same feeling of well being after the meal that I get when I eat raw, and I felt much more stuffed, though some of the meats did contain plenty of salt and I didn't have any major negative side effects. The next day I ate plentiful raw meat and got the well-being feeling again.
I ate a majority of cooked meats when I started ZC/carnivore and improved when I converted to mostly raw. I don't know for sure whether this was due to raw or to continuing improvements from carnivore, so I plan on trying cooked carnivore again at some point in the future.
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PaleoPhil I found a picture of you in the "meat ups". Many members have mentioned in the journals (I could name 20+) that they don't digest raw meat (found in the journals, cramps, maldigistion, candida).
I am looking into something new because I do not believe in just one factor - our body needs many factors in balance to function...
http://www.nimbuswater.com/
It just kind of upsets me when you find both sides with the cooked/raw and it does not give the full picture.
I do not eat at night because the body and mind do not need to fill up at night; are we not able to deal with the night/peace in any other way?
Nicola
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You are probably right, everyone is different. Each and everyone of us would react very differently to the same menu.
I would experiment with different variables to see what works best for my body.
Mix and match things like:
- Raw, cooked rare, medium, well
- Different meat/fat ratios
- Different meats, beef, goat, chicken, etc.
- Internal organs, marrow, etc.
- Different meal volume/frequency
- Maybe add a little carbs, some fruits, or non-starchy vegetable
I would not look at everyone's specifics, instead I'd try to figure out what works best for me.
The basic idea is simple, it's animal meat and fat. It's up to me to figure out which specifics my body likes the best.
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PaleoPhil I found a picture of you in the "meat ups". Many members have mentioned in the journals (I could name 20+) that they don't digest raw meat (found in the journals, cramps, maldigistion, candida).
Disinformation! You have been deceived. I'm one of those who don't eat "wet" raw meat, because I don't like it and have had problems digesting it.
However I normally eat all-raw meat ZC in the form of pemmican. Dried raw meat is perfectly digestible, and my guess is that it is so for all.
I am looking into something new because I do not believe in just one factor - our body needs many factors in balance to function...
http://www.nimbuswater.com/
Google "doulton water filters"; I use one of these for the water I get from the lake before my cabin, and in winter from the village spring. For city dwellers, the optional fluoride filter could be added.
It just kind of upsets me when you find both sides with the cooked/raw and it does not give the full picture.
? I don't know what you refer to?
I do not eat at night because the body and mind do not need to fill up at night; are we not able to deal with the night/peace in any other way?
Nicola
Eating should be finished several hours before sleep. This is standard advice, I had assumed that it is so well known that it need not be written.
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PaleoPhil I found a picture of you in the "meat ups". Many members have mentioned in the journals (I could name 20+) that they don't digest raw meat (found in the journals, cramps, maldigistion, candida).
I am looking into something new because I do not believe in just one factor - our body needs many factors in balance to function...
Like you, Nicola, I like to put concepts to the test with lots of skeptical questions, to see what holds up to scrutiny. I am open to the possibility that your claim may be true, but I haven't witnessed it myself, so would you mind sharing a name or two out of the many who have reported having trouble digesting raw meats, so that I may see for myself what they wrote and determine whether there may have been a misunderstanding? It has been my experience that sometimes the claims made about other forums have their origin in unintentional misunderstandings.
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Nicola I saw your post on ZIOH forum about raw meats. If I remember correctly. The mod just deflects every study by saying. "Those studies weren't done on 0 carbers." Which left a very stale debate.
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would you mind sharing a name or two out of the many who have reported having trouble digesting raw meats, so that I may see for myself what they wrote and determine whether there may have been a misunderstanding? It has been my experience that sometimes the claims made about other forums have their origin in unintentional misunderstandings.
Charles, Kzantal (Martin), Delfuego, Caroline, Larry, Suzanne, Christopher, Nicklas, Moises... misunderstanding - perhaps, because many factors count!
William, I am not looking for members that believe this is a sport of "I am better than you" - many that eat pemmican don't do so well!
Nicola
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Nicola, you wrote: "Raw food compounds are colloidal and tend to be hydrophilic, meaning that they attract liquids. Thus when we eat a salad or some other raw food, the hydrophilic colloids attract digestive juices for rapid and effective digestion. Colloids that have been heated are generally hydrophobic - they repel liquids, making cooked foods harder to digest. However, the proteinaceous getlatin in meat broths has the unusual property of attracting liquids - it is hydrophilic - even after it has been heated." http://forum.zeroinginonhealth.com/showthread.php?tid=2125&pid=48837#pid48837
Have you changed your mind, or are you just re-examining your views to make sure they're sound?
As for Charles, I've seen him write that he doesn't like raw or rare meat or organs mainly because he doesn't like the taste. He did write: "I can get away with it [raw meats] sometimes but if I push it too many times in a row, I'll have loose stools. I wouldn't call it diarrhea because I don't get any cramps or any discomfort, it's just really loose." http://forum.zeroinginonhealth.com/showthread.php?tid=2125&pid=124807#pid124807
Charles has frequently written that he doesn't believe raw meats are substantially less healthy than cooked, he just doesn't want people talking too much about them and possibly scaring people away from his forum. In support of raw meats, Charles wrote on 06-23-2009: "After [infants] wean at about two years old, they can go directly to meat, even raw meat and be just as content [as they were on breast milk]." He also wrote: "our raw friends regularly eat raw meat and don't have [parasite] problems. Perhaps, we can pass these things without harm if the rest of our system is not compromised. There clearly was a time in our history when people did not cook things so thoroughly and yet they were able to ward off whatever existed in their food." http://forum.zeroinginonhealth.com/showthread.php?tid=2125&pid=10803#pid10803
Delfuego eats essentially raw beef jerky (usually 90, and sometimes 105, degrees F) in his pemmican. He says he can't digest cooked meat, so he could hardly be cited as an example for eating cooked meats.
Caroline wrote: "raw meat has NEVER given me any problem whatsoever." http://forum.zeroinginonhealth.com/showthread.php?tid=2125&pid=124207#pid124207
Suzanne actually claims she eats raw meat: "I was eating my raw meat dinner in my dad's hospital room and of course the nurse had to walk in at the second. She goes missing all day long when I need her, but magically appears as I sit eating a raw steak in the cardiac unit. I am pretty sure she went back and told all the staff some crazy lady is eating a raw steak, lol." http://forum.zeroinginonhealth.com/showthread.php?tid=2125&pid=47171#pid47171
As a matter of fact, at least three of the staff members there eat raw meat (Suzanne, Catin and Jeff)! Other members there also eat raw meat: Nyteez, Karb Killa, and Marnee. I haven't noticed anyone there saying they have problems digesting raw meat or that it a raw meat diet has made them chronically ill or anything negative like that.
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PaleoPhil would you please read ALL of the journals (past and present) + those members have posted in other journals about digestion / raw / cooked / cramps... + little inputs on the "Discussion" thread. Delfuego and all the others have mentioned all over the board about reactions to raw meat vs. cooked meat.
I am not interesting in playing a game with you or any other person and diet is not a football match!
Nobody seems to know "the answer" and I wish people would consider the whole picture; digestion has many, many aspects like water, the kind of water, amount... we drink.
Nicola
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Could people please keep any criticisms of raw in the hot topics forum. The original post of this thread didn't even have anything to do with the raw/cooking aspect, so the whole issue isn't even relevant to this thread.
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Cooked meat just closes my throat up before it can go to my stomach. Meat has to be raw for me. I had to drink tons when I was a kid, between bites, trying to get the meat down my throat. It wasn't food; because it didn't do anything good for me.
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Nicola, it seems now for almost two years I have read about your interest or confusion about raw vs. cooked. Are you still vacillating back and forth? Do you have direct experiences with either? Have you tried one month eating one way and the next eating the other, ( or possibly several months )? It appears you seem to be looking for the answer from collecting statistics. If so, the problem is that you'll collect the highest number from the forum you collect the hardest from. As I have posted so many times on the ZC forum, each has to find out for oneself. But even then the variable and one's own mind can make the process seem full of deceptive pot holes. You used to write of watery stools for quite some time on raw. Has that passed? What is your own experience? Maybe that is a place to share from and gain experience from others' input. By the way, I really appreciate all the sites/posts you put up. Van
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Many members have mentioned in the journals (I could name 20+) that they don't digest raw meat (found in the journals, cramps, maldigistion, candida).
Maybe it was because they tried very fresh muscle-meat? Aged one (one week, for example) is easier to digest.
And what about organ-meats? Did they try them? They are easier to digest then muscle-meats, esp. after couple of days of aging.
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It's not so much a question of digestion. The fact is that the cooked zero-carbers are so full of toxins from decades of eating cooked food that, inevitably, there will be some detox side-effects like diarrhea when they first switch. I myself got green diarrhea for the first 2-3 days of going rawpalaeo as the toxins from cooked diets started to leave my system.
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Yeah, but if it's inevitable, why didn't I get this detox or diarrhea when I switched? Was it because I transitioned in stages and had been eating some beef jerky before I transitioned to raw?
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Yeah, but if it's inevitable, why didn't I get this detox or diarrhea when I switched? Was it because I transitioned in stages and had been eating some beef jerky before I transitioned to raw?
That may be it. I shouldn't perhaps have claimed that this effect happened always at the start. It usually does but some people might detox in different ways at slower rates etc. For example, people who still eat some cooked food are much less likely to experience a violent detox as their body is still being swamped with toxins so any detox would be at a slower, milder , perhaps unnoticeable rate(with slower recovery from health, though). That's what AV says, anyway.
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Re: Del Fuego eating raw meat
He stated that he experimented with raw meat and that all of his family was "angry" and that one of his sons showed "symptoms of autism". I nearly fell out of my chair when reading this likely gross exaggeration. Sure, I suppose it could be true as well as his 2.5 month battle of depression to the point that he would find himself crying alone after switching to pemmican. This was also after 4-5 years of cooked zc I think, which makes it even more hard to believe. Regardless of his obvious extreme sensitivity to changes in diet, I still think he has plenty of good information and experience for others to learn from.
As for me, raw meat digests very well, almost like I am not digesting anything at all. Moderator Jeff digests raw meat very well as does Katelyn. Im sure there are more. Also, as for Martin, he may very well be the sickest person I have seen on that site. He has been zc for quite some time (8 months?) and still has digestion problems with both forms of meat and even occasionally vomits.
And Phil,good work you are a sicko, I can't believe you tracked down all that info with the links. I'd actually read most all of the quotes you pulled.
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The different reactions might be due to differences in meat, I think butchers and abattoirs do different things to it. And there's a difference in the animal's environment.
IIRC a common experience in first eating raw is to be concerned about constipation, from WWTL. That was mine, and I wondered if I should copy the constipated mathematician.
That turned out to be just weak connective tissue which as we know fixes itself when we eat raw.
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Re: Del Fuego eating raw meat
He stated that he experimented with raw meat and that all of his family was "angry" and that one of his sons showed "symptoms of autism". I nearly fell out of my chair when reading this likely gross exaggeration.
Yeah, I remember that now, thanks. Since he generally heats his jerky around 95 degrees F, which is not considered cooked, if there is a real difference then I think it may be that the shredding of the meat makes the pemmican easier for him and his family to digest than whole raw meat. I also wonder if he was getting enough fat when he tried eating whole raw meat. He's doing well now, so I'm not going to knock him just because I'm a bit skeptical. I can't count the number of times I've been skeptical of something (like the benefits of high meat, for example), only to find out later it's true, so I try not to dismiss anything right away when it comes to ancestral eating, no matter how ridiculous it may sound (doesn't mean I buy into it right away either, of course).
Also, as for Martin, he may very well be the sickest person I have seen on that site. He has been zc for quite some time (8 months?) and still has digestion problems with both forms of meat and even occasionally vomits.
Yeah, good point. I don't think the rawness of the meat is necessarily the source of his problems.
And Phil,good work you are a sicko, I can't believe you tracked down all that info with the links. I'd actually read most all of the quotes you pulled.
Thanks, yeah I'm a geek. (Shhh--luckily most of the posts were in one thread on raw meats LOL).
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As a matter of fact, at least three of the staff members there eat raw meat (Suzanne, Catin and Jeff)! Other members there also eat raw meat: Nyteez, Karb Killa, and Marnee. I haven't noticed anyone there saying they have problems digesting raw meat or that it a raw meat diet has made them chronically ill or anything negative like that.
Hi. I am that Marnee. I ate mostly to all pemmican for several weeks. During this time I had horrible diarrhea. I thought it would work itself out but I ran out of pemmican and so I stopped eating it for a while. The next time I ate some pemmi (a small amount) I got the diarrhea again. The thing is that when I eat raw fresh meat I have no problems at all. I cook burgers by frying them and they are pretty much raw and just crispy on the very outside edge. And that doesn't bother me at all either. Again, I have no problem eating raw and I eat a big serving of raw beef and raw fat pretty much everyday. And I love it. The grass fed beef I get is very delicious :)
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Thanks for the explanation Marnee. Perhaps Nicola confused your problems with pemmican for problems with raw meat? What do you think was the source of the issue with pemmican for you?
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Thanks for the explanation Marnee. Perhaps Nicola confused your problems with pemmican for problems with raw meat? What do you think was the source of the issue with pemmican for you?
Nicola is not confused! I didn't even remember to mention Marnee as she left the zerocarb forum quite a time ago. I remember Marnee in the context of running and also can remember that she had/has "bowel -\".
I didn't know that Nyteez eats raw meat? She is living out and away from modern stimulants; she seems to have her feet on the ground and has been doing well with cooked or raw meat.
I find what Tom G. has mentioned very interesting - he and Lex are easy/reasonable to understand.
Nicola
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Nicola is not confused! I didn't even remember to mention Marnee as she left the zerocarb forum quite a time ago. I remember Marnee in the context of running and also can remember that she had/has "bowel -\".
I didn't know that Nyteez eats raw meat? She is living out and away from modern stimulants; she seems to have her feet on the ground and has been doing well with cooked or raw meat.
OK, sorry, Nicola. I thought Marnee was trying to explain a possible misunderstanding of her issues with pemmican as being issues with raw meat in general, but apparently not. So now that you see that a surprising number of current and former members and even administrators at the ZC forum eat at least some raw meat without problems--at least, according to their posts there--do you feel more comfortable with it, Nicola? I hope this helped in some fashion, even given my usual blunders. I don't have all the answers myself, but I'm fairly comfortable with raw meat eating myself at this point, despite having had some concerns of my own before embarking on it.
I find what Tom G. has mentioned very interesting - he and Lex are easy/reasonable to understand.
Agreed.
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Hi. I just wanted to add some perspective to my experience. I really don't know why the pemmican affects me badly. I wonder if it is e.coli growth during the drying processes and I'm sensitive to it? Or maybe it's just the "fat runs", if you know what I mean? Not sure.
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Hi. I just wanted to add some perspective to my experience. I really don't know why the pemmican affects me badly. I wonder if it is e.coli growth during the drying processes and I'm sensitive to it? Or maybe it's just the "fat runs", if you know what I mean? Not sure.
e.coli needs water to grow, and it evaporates quickly from the surface at the usual drying temps if there is enough air movement. You could test this by drying some meat and eating it with some fat that you know is safe - maybe even butter, if you tolerate that.
Could try a different fat too, maybe rendered at different temperature. I had the "fat runs" from raw fat, and I still suspect the butcher.
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Hi. I just wanted to add some perspective to my experience. I really don't know why the pemmican affects me badly. I wonder if it is e.coli growth during the drying processes and I'm sensitive to it? Or maybe it's just the "fat runs", if you know what I mean? Not sure.
Thanks for the explanation, Marnee. That was my second guess at what your intention was, but I figured I'd better not try guessing at it again. -[
I know fat lubricates my system a bit. Maybe in some folks it has a stronger effect?
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Id say my wife and i eat about 2-4 pounds of leanish meat a day (each) and then mabye a lamb sausage or two. We dont count anything, just eat what we want. We go by a 'how do you feel' approach. If im hungry ill eat whatever I have. Ill go weeks on lean cuts then feel like i want something fattier so ill get some lamb for that week. when im not feeling like eating lamb ill get whatever other animal i feel like eating.. its been working pretty great so far.. like losing the fear of dying from parasites ive lost the fear of dying from protein poisoning haha.
great post!! i do the same. my 2 and 1/2 yrs old toddler eats raw beef. i give him 1/4 lb lean muscle with 2 tsp of raw butter. i feed him that for his diner.
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great post!! i do the same. my 2 and 1/2 yrs old toddler eats raw beef. i give him 1/4 lb lean muscle with 2 tsp of raw butter. i feed him that for his diner.
Hey, that's great to hear raw! How long have you been feeding your child RAF? How is his general development and what particular effects have you noted since introducing RAF? As you may have seen in other threads, I have a 6 month old son that I will soon begin introducing to solid foods (currently 100% breast-fed). Obviously, I'm extremely keen for him to eat mainly RAF but am also aware that I have to take into consideration the expectations and views of my partner who is not following a RAF diet. You're extremely lucky to have a wife eating in a similar manner to yourself - a result of which your child must be thriving! I'd be extremely interested in on-going reports of your experiences and progress. I hope to start a journal on here for my son which others have expressed an interest in. I'm sure your experiences would also be highly valued.
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great post!! i do the same. my 2 and 1/2 yrs old toddler eats raw beef. i give him 1/4 lb lean muscle with 2 tsp of raw butter. i feed him that for his diner.
Sounds good. Some liver would be really good for him as well.
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Hey, that's great to hear raw! How long have you been feeding your child RAF? How is his general development and what particular effects have you noted since introducing RAF? As you may have seen in other threads, I have a 6 month old son that I will soon begin introducing to solid foods (currently 100% breast-fed). Obviously, I'm extremely keen for him to eat mainly RAF but am also aware that I have to take into consideration the expectations and views of my partner who is not following a RAF diet. You're extremely lucky to have a wife eating in a similar manner to yourself - a result of which your child must be thriving! I'd be extremely interested in on-going reports of your experiences and progress. I hope to start a journal on here for my son which others have expressed an interest in. I'm sure your experiences would also be highly valued.
thanks. well, since my son's born, i put him on 100% breast milk. but all those negativities, i get from my parents (baby is too small, give him some sugars, cow milk...etc); it's a long story. so i'm thinking to write a feature about my baby too. but, my busy schedule, keeping me off sitting in front of this computer. for your information, i'm giving him raw muscle meat (everyday for diner) about 3 months now. before i used to give him raw liver ance a while. i put him in raw vegan diet which was really bad for him. but at this points, he really likes those home grown celery juice, wildly grown bitter dandelion leaves. he doesn't like raw meat that much, but he loves fruits. i limit his fruits intake by blending one banana into raw goat milk acidophiles everyday. i'll write all details later. take care.
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raw - I would be very interested in your feature about your baby when you find the time! I appreciate time is short and commitments are many! I've only had the chance to make so many posts this week as I've been off work sick with suspected swine flu! (Most people are knocked out with it for 2 weeks that I've known. I'm pretty much over it in 4 days without taking anything!!) :)
Good to hear that you're limited your son's fruits. I hope he gets a taste for the raw meats and it's great to hear that he's been having them daily for so long already. I look forward to your journal and further details!
Keep up the admirable work!
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;)Michael, thanks.i found something new about my son and that's cold shower. when he was on vegan diet, he feels too cold to go to beach, or simple stay naked outside. recently, i'm giving him cold shower and i don't see any sign of cold. today he stays completely naked under the mild sun around 12:30 (my backyard)and he is playing with the rain water for an hour.
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As planned, I have been eating nothing but fatty beef or lamb with suet and a few herbs for flavouring. I calculate out ratios to give me around 2100-2200 calories per day, 85% calories by fat and keep protein around 85-100g per day.
Can you describe the quantity of meat & fat you are eating per day? I don't have a scale.
Is that still going well for you?
Thanks 1,000,000 for posting your suet experiment. Several have noted that suet was too difficult to use and unappetizing to eat.
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It's going remarkably well thanks livingthelife. I've spoken about that in other recent threads so I won't repeat it again here. But, do let me know if you want further info.
I'm glad that you found my suet experiment useful. That was quite alot of work last night - especially the washing-up! :)
I would highly recommend buying some cheap kitchen scales purely for the purposes of getting to know how much meat and fats to use and in what ratios. I'm not one for measuring things particularly and it's easy to do it by eye once you know what various quantities look like. Having said that, I'm not sure I know well enough to describe the quantities I use to you. That's mainly because I take random size joints of brisket (from 1.5kg to 3kg), slice the whole lot into a large bowl, pump the weight of the joint into my spreadsheet which then tells me how much suet to grind up & add to achieve my desired ratios. When I'm making 5 days worth at a time I CAN tell you that it's ALOT!!! :)
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;)Michael, thanks.i found something new about my son and that's cold shower. when he was on vegan diet, he feels too cold to go to beach, or simple stay naked outside. recently, i'm giving him cold shower and i don't see any sign of cold. today he stays completely naked under the mild sun around 12:30 (my backyard)and he is playing with the rain water for an hour.
Yes, I had similar results: I found that plant foods, especially carby ones, made me cold--except for hot, sweaty feet (perhaps because of pooling of blood?)--and gave me poor circulation. I would get very cold and shivering from swimming in a lake and would have to quit before other kids, running for a towel to warm up. Whereas animal fats have greatly improved my tolerance to cold (now I can tolerate swimming in colder water than most people, for example), yet paradoxically didn't make me overly hot in the summer.
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Yes, I had similar results: I found that plant foods, especially carby ones, made me cold--except for hot, sweaty feet (perhaps because of pooling of blood?)--and gave me poor circulation. I would get very cold and shivering from swimming in a lake and would have to quit before other kids, running for a towel to warm up. Whereas animal fats have greatly improved my tolerance to cold (now I can tolerate swimming in colder water than most people, for example), yet paradoxically didn't make me overly hot in the summer.
Likewise, I've experienced similar improvements from a similarly overly sensitive beginning. However, your improvements seem greater than my own in this regard Phil as I would still consider myself quite sensitive to cold. I do still find it difficult to retain weight which is probably a big factor in this. Also, I'm coming from a background of great ill health so my healing, I expect, is longer.
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I hear ya. My hands do still get cold and other people notice that they feel cold (though I suspect less so than they used to), but they feel less cold to me and no longer seem to get painful and stiff from the cold and the coldest weather only numbs them for a few minutes instead of a half hour or more. I'm hoping for additional improvements in cold tolerance going forward. My feet never get as hot and sweaty as they used to. I also have trouble gaining and maintaining weight.
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It will be interesting to review the cold intolerance situation in another year or two. I think levels of activity are also a factor. Due to an excessive workload recently in a rather sedentary job my lack of mobility has noticeably affected my body's tolerance. I'm hoping this will now also improve as I've now completed my work contract and will be returning to uni in Jan with more freetime for exercise.
Have you always struggled gaining/maintaing weight Phil? It was never an issue for me until I became ill in the mid-nineties with digestive and adrenal issues. It's been an issue ever since with the exception of the period I was following an AV style primal diet. I can pile weight on quickly using dairy products but nothing else. I'm finding it difficult maintaining weight on my 2 meal vlc/zc raw paleo regime but wouldn't say I'm particularly underweight.
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Lex seemed to claim that really high amounts of raw fat(as a percentage of diet) does also lead to weight-gain. No need to take up dairy again.
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Don't worry. I've no intention of taking up raw dairy again! I've finally learned, like you, that it's no good for me - even butter seemingly!
I don't recall hearing Lex mention that but that's good to hear - thanks. I'm quite happy with my current size and low body fat - I just don't want to lose anymore weight. I guess things will find their own balance by continuing to give my body the proper foods.
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... Have you always struggled gaining/maintaing weight Phil? It was never an issue for me until I became ill in the mid-nineties with digestive and adrenal issues. It's been an issue ever since with the exception of the period I was following an AV style primal diet. I can pile weight on quickly using dairy products but nothing else. I'm finding it difficult maintaining weight on my 2 meal vlc/zc raw paleo regime but wouldn't say I'm particularly underweight.
Not always. In my late 30s I suddenly was able to put on lots of weight by eating lots of carbs (all flab, as far as I could tell). My highest measured weight was 179 lbs, but I think I exceeded that. Since I'm no longer eating much in the way of carbs, it is now extremely difficult to put on any weight again. I dropped to 120 something. I'm currently
For me it is easier to lose weight than gain it. This seems to piss off a number of overweight folks and several have claimed to me that this is impossible and got upset when I mentioned it, so I generally keep quiet about it now. Intolerance of super-thin people seems to be one of the last socially acceptable prejudices, but it doesn't bother me (it bothered my mother though, who constantly tried to fatten me and my siblings in our youth--so people wouldn't ask "Doesn't your mother feed you?") and I can understand the frustration, so I'm not griping. I just find it fascinating. I actually thought it was pretty neat and funny when I was flabby because I had struggled to put on weight for so many years and didn't know what it was like to have a "jolly" belly I could jiggle (I had fun with it for a little while :) --I should have taken photos, 'cause now few will believe I was ever chubby), but my corresponding poor health stats and illnesses and my doctor convinced me it wasn't good. Having a flabby belly with thin limbs is apparently the worst combination, health-wise.
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I just find it fascinating. I actually thought it was pretty neat and funny when I was flabby because I had struggled to put on weight for so many years and didn't know what it was like to have a "jolly" belly I could jiggle (I had fun with it for a little while :) --I should have taken photos, '
The BEFORE and AFTER photos would of certainly been a good advertisement for RAF! :) I'm glad to say that I've never experienced the jelly belly phase. I'm in my late thirties now so I'm glad I found the path to good health in my late twenties/early thirties.
Likewise, I find it easier to lose weight than gain it but that's probably just representative of the fact that we don't consume a high-carb diet with it's resultant insulin response and fat storage.
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I think the average is about 2lbs./day for me.