Paleo Diet: Raw Paleo Diet and Lifestyle Forum
Raw Paleo Diet to Suit You => Carnivorous / Zero Carb Approach => Topic started by: Dead Is the New Alive on October 17, 2009, 08:04:35 am
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I assume they are basically considered something of a hoax here - at least the percieved danger associated with them - but I want to hear the actual reasoning behind these beliefs. I am having trouble unearthing any discussion on the topic.
On one hand, we've got the status quo and the stories of infection by tens of thousands - even hundreds. On the other though, we've got people eating raw meat exclusively by tens of thousands - even hundreds, some for decades now. The former have a clear line of reasoning - there's evil salmonella out there and it'll kill you horribly-terribly, but the latter... I don't really know? I mean, what's your take on it - you surely have one.
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Salmonella bacteria are nowadays used to fight some type of cancers. They are perfect to clean the body of the dead degenerative tissues.
http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/255123/salmonella_may_cure_cancer.html?cat=5
The same is with parasites - http://www.boston.com/news/science/articles/2007/12/31/his_parasite_theory_stirs_a_revolution/
Do you blame vultures for the carcass they eat?
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The prevailing view among rawists is that it's the environment not the pathogen that is the problem. For example, bacteria from grainfed cooked meat can be bad but not from raw, grassfed meat. If you want lots of info on the benefits of bacteria and parasites have a look at any mention online of the "hygiene hypothesis".
There are other side-issues of course. Meats in the west are so sanitised re use of vaccines/anti-parasitical drugs, that one stands a snowball's chance in hell of getting parasites. Incidentally, cooking doesn't necessarily protect against parasite(it's been pointed out that a third to a half of the world's population is infected by the toxoplasmosis parasite, for example - albeit most have no overt symptoms).
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Salmonella bacteria are nowadays used to fight some type of cancers.
The prevailing view among rawists is that it's the environment not the pathogen that is the problem. For example, bacteria from grainfed cooked meat can be bad but not from raw, grassfed meat.
Well then, what's the deal with everyone dying from salmonella supposedly recieved from undercooked or raw meat?
Perhaps, I'm thinking, the mix of raw and cooked is our culprit here. Salmonella lives in raw meat, right? You eat raw meat exclusively, it's all fine and dandy - but if you mix, salmonella will have some fun in your stomach - it will inhabit whatever cooked meat there it can find. Plausible? If so, I'd like to know how this works out - how and why does cooked meat invite salmonella to wreak havoc on us?
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does anyone know anyone who's been sick with salmonella?
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Well then, what's the deal with everyone dying from salmonella supposedly recieved from undercooked or raw meat?
Who is dying from salmonella? It's only diarrhea, fever or vomiting for couple of days (or less). Mercola suggests taking some good probiotics every 30 minutes until you recover - http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2002/11/13/eggs-part-two.aspx
Of course it's definitely better to eat raw, but even when you eat cooked meals the salmonella isn't a threat, unless you use some antibiotics, drugs.
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how and why does cooked meat invite salmonella to wreak havoc on us?
Maybe because when you eat cooked meals you eat a lot of heat-created toxins, zero good bacteria, enzymes, which do not help to cleans yourself.
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Well then, what's the deal with everyone dying from salmonella supposedly recieved from undercooked or raw meat?
Perhaps, I'm thinking, the mix of raw and cooked is our culprit here. Salmonella lives in raw meat, right? You eat raw meat exclusively, it's all fine and dandy - but if you mix, salmonella will have some fun in your stomach - it will inhabit whatever cooked meat there it can find. Plausible? If so, I'd like to know how this works out - how and why does cooked meat invite salmonella to wreak havoc on us?
Aajonus frequently refers to a study which found salmonella existing in 38% of all US households, yet there was no corresponding salmonella epidemic.
As regards cooked/raw, bacteria in cooked foods is much worse as it's affected by the heat-created toxins produced by the cooking process. Also, it's possible(though never heard of it)a few cooked-food-eaters might have such compromised health that they become hypernsensitive to some bacteria.
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Who is dying from salmonella?
That's the status quo and the official word. Providing sources would be redundant, it's all over the place.
salmonella isn't a threat, unless you use some antibiotics, drugs.
Also, it's possible(though never heard of it)a few cooked-food-eaters might have such compromised health that they become hypernsensitive to some bacteria.
Actually, I believe this is where it's at. Modern Occidental internal ecosystems are simply compromised to the point where certain bacteria (like salmonella) can and do go wild and out of control. Something like harsh soap applied to sensitive skin - whilst normally, bacteria (including salmonella of course) will serve a role similar to dermabrasion - remove dead/degenerated tissue so it can regenerate.
With that said, I think it safe to assume we're all a bit out of whack and shouldn't newcomers therefore prepare the terrain there a bit before starting the raw diet - that is, supplement with probiotics? Just to be on the safe side.
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No RVAFer really needs artificial probiotics before going RVAF. Simply put, those artificial probiotics are largely useless, often not even containing enough bacteria to pass through the digestive tract, and often are of the wrong type of bacteria etc. Better to eat aged, raw meat as that's the most effective option.
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Better to eat aged, raw meat as that's the most effective option.
That's very true, but...
psychologically many people may find probiotics the easiest way to get beneficial bacteria
That's true that most of the probiotics on the market are useless, but there is one that is for sure effective - Lactobacillus Rhamnosus GG
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I've read an article claiming the same thing. That Pro-biotic supplementation is a waste. They even went as far as claiming that sauerkraut didn't help either. I'm guessing the author was referring to store brand sauerkraut. I didn't save the article cause it was more of a rant & it didn't site any research.
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So we've covered bacteria, but I'm not quite convinced about parasites. I don't exactly plan on hosting tape worms unless they're really, truly harmless which I kind of doubt.
You see, I am very surprised to find very little discussion on this topic. That can mean two things - either you've been lucky not to encounter and/or harbor the worm, or you already have or have had them but not the troubles associated with them.
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You see, I am very surprised to find very little discussion on this topic. That can mean two things - either you've been lucky not to encounter and/or harbor the worm, or you already have or have had them but not the troubles associated with them.
But there were many discussions about bacteria and parasites. Search in the forum.
I don't know whether I harbor any worms. I don't care - I will not run do doctors every week to make sure about this issue.
What do you mean by troubles? Fever, diarrhea, vomiting? They are the best ways to cleans our bodies, so it's not the problem.
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So we've covered bacteria, but I'm not quite convinced about parasites. I don't exactly plan on hosting tape worms unless they're really, truly harmless which I kind of doubt.
You see, I am very surprised to find very little discussion on this topic. That can mean two things - either you've been lucky not to encounter and/or harbor the worm, or you already have or have had them but not the troubles associated with them.
The fact that there's no significiant mention of parasite-infestations should make it clear that parasites are not an issue for RVAFers. Personally, it doesn't matter either way. Western agriculture routinely prescribes anti-parasite remedies to domesticated animals raised for food, so that might be the reason for why parasites are so unheard of. On the other hand, people like me have eaten so much in the way of wild game(supposedly infested with parasites according to lore) that maybe the latter group are infested with parasites but since we are experiencing no negative symptoms therefrom, one has to assume that parasites are either harmless or beneficial.
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Interestingly, leafy greens are the riskiest food for foodborne illness, according to the CSPI (not my favorite source, however). Their top 10 riskiest foods are:
Leafy greens
Eggs
Tuna
Oysters
Potatoes
Cheese
Ice cream
Tomatoes
Sprouts
Berries
Notice that raw or undercooked landbased meats don't even make the top 10. Eggs are the only food on this list that I eat, so my risk might actually be lower than the avg cooked SAD eater. Here's an excerpt from the article:
Top Ten Riskiest Foods – Leafy Greens, Eggs & Tuna
Posted by Jane Akre of the National News Desk
Tuesday, October 06, 2009 10:08 PM EST
http://www.injuryboard.com/national-news/top-ten-riskiest-foods-leafy-greens-eggs-tuna.aspx?googleid=272204
The list of risky foods that are regulated by the Food and Drug Administration (FDA) comes from the usually reliable public interest group, Center for Science in the Public Interest (CSPI).
The list includes leafy greens, tomatoes, eggs, seafood such as tuna and oysters, and ice cream.
Those foods alone account for about 40 percent of all food-borne outbreaks among FDA-regulated foods over the last 19 years involving 50,000 reported illnesses.
....
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Phil,That's a great find, but unfortunately there are some flaws in that link;
That number is likely underreported. Health experts agree most cases of foodborne illness are never reported.
Meat is not regulated by the FDA, but by the Department of Agriculture, and has accounted for many cases of bacterial contamination. The FDA regulates nearly 80 percent of our food supply.(Not like the FDA is all that great anyways lol)
I will agree however that leafy greens seems to be the most suspect. Because it's the most treated food(pesticide) eaten by the average people. I guess you can say, so far we (raw paleo forum) are lucky for not getting contaminated. Because from what I've heard/known wild animals do get parasites. I'm guessing Tyler & Hannibal is right. Maybe it really isn't so noticeable or health threatening as we were programed to be.!
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I will agree however that leafy greens seems to be the most suspect. Because it's the most treated food(pesticide) eaten by the average people. I guess you can say, so far we (raw paleo forum) are lucky for not getting contaminated. Because from what I've heard/known wild animals do get parasites. I'm guessing Tyler & Hannibal is right. Maybe it really isn't so noticeable or health threatening as we were programed to be.!
Leafy greens are only the most suspect because far, far more people eat raw, leafy greens than they eat raw meat. Simply put, outside the raw-meat-eating community, raw animal food is only very rarely eaten by most people(even the sushi, I've heard, is usually preheated), so that it's difficult to claim that leafy greens are the worst for foodborne illness.On another point, I've never heard of food-poisoning outbreaks among raw vegans who just eat raw fruit and raw veg.
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Leafy greens are only the most suspect because far, far more people eat raw, leafy greens than they eat raw meat.
That is true. Also my lurking at raw vegan sites, I never came across a food poisoning thread.
From my observation, I always hear people getting food poison from already cooked foods. Their claim was always that the meat was under cooked. I don't have any scientific evidence, just my experience to base off of. I strongly believe why people get "food poison" from cooked food is really because the fat went rancid. whether its the cooking oil being recycled,thawing & refreezing unused meats or poor handling.
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Is sashimi preheated? I doubt it, because salmon is easy to tell when it's been heated at all. It quickly becomes lightened in color to a whitish-pink (try it yourself some time if you don't believe me). The salmon sashimi I had yesterday was not lightened at all.
Some sashimi may be soaked in vinegar, soy, lemon, spices, etc., but I doubt it's heated, and vinegar and lemon are not supposed to be able to kill all bacteria or make food safe, according to most reports (though some disagree), and if they do then all one would have to do is use some lemon and still be able to eat raw fish without fear of poisoning. I've never heard of a report of sashimi poisoning, though I don't doubt that it has happened, whereas I have seen numerous news reports of food poisoning from underCOOKED meats and raw plants like spinach, berries, etc. and processed foods like peanut butter, candy, baked goods, etc.
I haven't seen any percentage analyses. The small amount of data for raw fish/meat poisoning could explain why there are so few reports of food poisoning, but on the other hand, without much data what are they basing their claims of danger on? Guesses? The guesses may be right, but then again maybe not. Based on our experiences here I suspect that the risk of food poisoning from raw meats is overblown and the result mainly of fear and hysteria. That doesn't mean there's no risk, just that it's been exaggerated. I think DeadRamones is probably right about underCOOKED meat being the issue, rather than raw meat.
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I believe sushi fish is deeply frozen to prevent bacteria. You can check the USDA website. They have a section of how diffrent meat are treated.
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Yes, my understanding is that sushi and sashimi fish are frozen to kill potential pathogenic organisms as well as keep the fish fresh.
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I saw in a TV program that high priced sashimi is frozen at specific temperatures and aged at specific number of days.
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Any idea which TV program? Amount of days? Exact temperature? Did it sound very believable?
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;D I saw it on animal planet..
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;D I saw it on animal planet..
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Thank you. Do you know Edwin?
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There's no reason to be scared of anything. God didn't put us on this planet with a bottle of lysol. He put us in the harshest environments around the planet. Your immune system should be able to handle it if you're properly nourished. Why do wolves eat grasses? They only do that when they feel sick. That's their medicine. If you ever get sick from something, go find a some herbs or wormwood to take care of it. Don't buy into this crazy germ theory. Meds and bad food causes more problems than nature itself.
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Can dangerous parasites even live in the 0 carb environment ? Some parasites live on sugars. No carbs no sugars. No environment for the bad guys.
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From my observation, I always hear people getting food poison from already cooked foods. Their claim was always that the meat was under cooked. I don't have any scientific evidence, just my experience to base off of. I strongly believe why people get "food poison" from cooked food is really because the fat went rancid. whether its the cooking oil being recycled,thawing & refreezing unused meats or poor handling.
My step-sister and her friend's brother both got sick from a chicken burger that was cooked (and not undercooked). It's the only time I've heard of someone getting salmonella, personally.
A while ago, my college was having issue with people feeling ill. It turns out that the cooks weren't doing their job at handling meat properly. They'd store already cooked meat with uncooked. A lot of the time, my hamburgers weren't cooked through. I had gotten sick, lightly, as a I tend to have a very good immune system, quite a few times from it. (Although I also get sick from the quality as well, another issue they were having. They tried to fix it--provide more healthy food, but now its under the pretense of healthy, but still extremely processed and now quite bland. I don't generally eat at the dining hall, prefer the commons area, where there's a food court, because the quality tends to be marginally better.)
I should check to see if my college's sushi is always cooked. They have tuna and some other raw fish sushi once in a while. I should probably check the smell as well. When I studied sushi a little (as a small hobby), I read that if a fish smells fishy, it has started to rot. Sashimi should not smell fishy. When I've had it, it's usually not.
This is something I've also wondered a little about--how to deal with parasites or illness. I'm frankly not too worried about salmonella. I have great luck with bacteria and viruses, as a rule. (When a lot of my friend and boyfriend got H1N1, I didn't. Subsequently, my bf got 3 colds and 2 flus, one being H1N1, over this past year, none of them he passed on to me.)
Also, what about E. coli?
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Also, what about E. coli?
It's not as big a concern if our meat had eaten it's natural diet (i.e. grassfed).
Grainfed animals have a more acidic stomach which is much closer to the pH of our stomachs. This results in E. Coli strains (i.e. E. Coli 157) which are much more acid resistant than regular E. Coli. Our first line of defense is the inhospitable environment of our stomachs so this results in lowered defense against the E. Coli.
Feedlots, where more and more grainfed animals are being raised, also compounds this issue as the animals are kept in closer quarters which results in the animals standing in their own excrement. This can seult in contamination of the meat at processing.
If you're interested in learning more about the whole issue I really recommend Michael Pollan's The Omnivore's Dilemma (http://www.amazon.com/Omnivores-Dilemma-Natural-History-Meals/dp/0143038583/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1263642027&sr=8-1). :)
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Can dangerous parasites even live in the 0 carb environment ? Some parasites live on sugars. No carbs no sugars. No environment for the bad guys.
Of course they can. Carnivores in the wild often have parasites in their guts.
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It's not as big a concern if our meat had eaten it's natural diet (i.e. grassfed).
Grainfed animals have a more acidic stomach which is much closer to the pH of our stomachs. This results in E. Coli strains (i.e. E. Coli 157) which are much more acid resistant than regular E. Coli. Our first line of defense is the inhospitable environment of our stomachs so this results in lowered defense against the E. Coli.
Feedlots, where more and more grainfed animals are being raised, also compounds this issue as the animals are kept in closer quarters which results in the animals standing in their own excrement. This can result in contamination of the meat at processing.
If you're interested in learning more about the whole issue I really recommend Michael Pollan's The Omnivore's Dilemma (http://www.amazon.com/Omnivores-Dilemma-Natural-History-Meals/dp/0143038583/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1263642027&sr=8-1). :)
Thanks! I'll have to borrow that book from my step-mother. I bought it for her for X-mas last year (I was tempted to by myself a copy, I had wanted to read it really badly) and so we should have it somewhere in the house.
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Uh Pretty scary http://www.ajtmh.org/cgi/content/abstract/25/5/691
An anisakid nematode, identified as Phocanema sp. fourth-stage larva, was "pulled" from the throat of a 46-year-old Alaskan Eskimo.
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How'd he get that?
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How'd he get that?
Good ol' Wikipedia gives an answer in seconds:
Anisakiasis
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anisakis#Anisakiasis
"Anisakiasis is the disease caused by infection with Anisakis worms. It is frequently reported in areas of the world where fish is consumed raw, lightly pickled or salted. The areas of highest prevalence are Scandinavia (from cod livers), Japan (after eating sushi and sashimi), the Netherlands (by eating infected fermented herrings (Maatjes)), and along the Pacific coast of South America (from eating ceviche). Heating to 60 °C, or freezing to below -20 °C is an effective method of killing Anisakis."
Since Anisakis worms cannot survive in human hosts for very long and thus eventually die on their own, and since people prone to allergies tend to react more strongly to them, I wonder if they cause any symptoms at all in people who have been eating raw fish for many years? For example, no symptoms were reported in the following two cases other than high count of the white blood cells that fight parasites (a normal reaction):
Anisakid Larva from the Throat of an Alaskan Eskimo
www.ajtmh.org/cgi/content/abstract/25/5/691
Temporary Human Infection with A Phocanema Sp. Larva
www.ajtmh.org/cgi/content/abstract/24/6/942
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Parasites are only a problem when your body is weak or malnourished. Heck, I probably eat salmonella all the time, but it doesn't affect me. Let me go lick a snake to see if I get sick. :o
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I'm not afraid of salmonella:
http://www.rawpaleoforum.com/general-discussion/i-simply-dont-understand-salmonella-and-e-coli/msg25232/#msg25232 (http://www.rawpaleoforum.com/general-discussion/i-simply-dont-understand-salmonella-and-e-coli/msg25232/#msg25232)
nor of tapeworms. I was afraid of tapeworms and other parasites before I tasted RAF, maybe even a couple months in as well. I lost all fear of those beings by that time.