Paleo Diet: Raw Paleo Diet and Lifestyle Forum
Raw Paleo Diet Forums => Welcoming Committee => Topic started by: matthew ryan on November 06, 2009, 11:49:03 am
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i've been reading here for about 2 weeks and decided i'd introduce myself.
like most, i've tried several diets trying to find foods that made me feel alive as opposed to just satiating my appetite.
4 years ago i was diagnosed with celiac disease and was astonished that the "balanced diet", preached by the government and doctors, was actually destroying my body.
So, i tried the weston a price diet, which helped me find a lot of new foods, grass-fed beef, and even convinced me to try eating liver. I don't remember if I tried liver raw or cooked first, but i do remember cooked liver tasting absolutely terrible. Raw liver on the other hand is quite tolerable.
Eventually, I found a source for raw dairy, as well as a dairy intolerance. The dairy co-op manager who doubles as a 'nutritionist', was convinced it was due to me not eating enough enzyme rich foods (not the case), and gave me a laundry list of remedies (did not work).
Anyway, I eventually found my way here after an article on westonaprice.org listing all of the traditional diets of bodybuilders - pre-steroid era. A few ate raw meat which sparked my interest. A quick google search later and I'm reading the journals of lex and tyler durden.
For the past week, I've been eating an 80/20 mix of grass-fed ground beef, along with liver and heart, from a local farm. I've also been eating a small amount of berries and drinking kombucha which i realize isnt exactly paleo. :) However, i drink water almost exclusively after breaking the soda habit several years ago.
I'm not entirely sure what other carbs to add, if any. So far, I've only been eating around 20-30g carbs a day. This is after starting off zero carb, which failed 3 days in, due to immense cravings >D
Thanks for the forum and journals, I'm very hopeful for how this will turn out for me..
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hola y bienvenido!
I look forward to reading about your experiences!
how long were you into Weston Price before coming here?
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Welcome Matthew;
You will probably find that zero carb is only tolerable if you replace the carbs with animal fat. This is the reason for the success of the pemmican eaters.
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Pemmican is not the best food as it contains cooked fat.. Stick to raw fat and maybe a few carbs for energy etc
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Hello
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hola y bienvenido!
I look forward to reading about your experiences!
how long were you into Weston Price before coming here?
I got into weston price two years ago when i was 20. Since then I've gained several lbs of lean mass, which i attribute mostly to the avoidance of gluten. I'm sure the WAP diet helped a lot as well considering i was on a pretty poor diet before then. I think at the time of all of the celiac tests, i weighed around 155 (i'm 6'1). I'm now around 172..
Welcome Matthew;
You will probably find that zero carb is only tolerable if you replace the carbs with animal fat. This is the reason for the success of the pemmican eaters.
I will definitely try to increase my fat intake.. i bought a few pounds of beef suet, i just havent figured out how i'm going to go about eating it
Pemmican is not the best food as it contains cooked fat.. Stick to raw fat and maybe a few carbs for energy etc
and
Hello
I'm far too lazy to make pemmican anyway ;D
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For my carbs, I go in for raw fruit, mostly berries like blueberries/raspberries but other fruit as well(but don't do as well on tropical fruit). I also go in for raw heather honeycomb(rarely), some raw vegetables(raw carrots once a year, radishes once a month or so, lots of seaweed I eat along with the raw mussels I get).
By the way, I should warn you that if you go too much VLC, you'll inevitably start finding that you get food-intolerances towards even raw fruit. This is not because raw fruit is harmful, it's simply because carbs like fruit require different bacteria from raw meats to get digested so that if you don't supply the digestive system with sufficient carbs for those bacteria to thrive on, the bacteria die out and you then start getting indigestion from eating raw fruit, also there's a change in production of enzymes which complicates matters. The same sort of thing happens to people who've been 100% raw vegan for long lengths of time and who then sudden;y start eating raw animal foods.
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thanks for the advice. i suspect its different for everyone, but whats the average amount for vlc opposed to lc?
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....By the way, I should warn you that if you go too much VLC, you'll inevitably start finding that you get food-intolerances towards even raw fruit. This is not because raw fruit is harmful, it's simply because carbs like fruit require different bacteria from raw meats to get digested so that if you don't supply the digestive system with sufficient carbs for those bacteria to thrive on, the bacteria die out and you then start getting indigestion from eating raw fruit, also there's a change in production of enzymes which complicates matters. The same sort of thing happens to people who've been 100% raw vegan for long lengths of time and who then sudden;y start eating raw animal foods.
How long after starting ZC does this increase in problems from raw fruit begin?
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thanks for the advice. i suspect its different for everyone, but whats the average amount for vlc opposed to lc?
It's very difficult to say. I mean, when I was doing VLC, my usual intake of carbs was one amount of c.125g-500g of raw berries, once every fortnight, and that was it. Everyone will vary.
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How long after starting ZC does this increase in problems from raw fruit begin?
The thing is I was doing VLC for far longer(many months) than ZC, so the effects re fruit were more noticable than after quitting ZC.
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For my carbs, I go in for raw fruit, mostly berries like blueberries/raspberries but other fruit as well(but don't do as well on tropical fruit). I also go in for raw heather honeycomb(rarely), some raw vegetables(raw carrots once a year, radishes once a month or so, lots of seaweed I eat along with the raw mussels I get).
By the way, I should warn you that if you go too much VLC, you'll inevitably start finding that you get food-intolerances towards even raw fruit. This is not because raw fruit is harmful, it's simply because carbs like fruit require different bacteria from raw meats to get digested so that if you don't supply the digestive system with sufficient carbs for those bacteria to thrive on, the bacteria die out and you then start getting indigestion from eating raw fruit, also there's a change in production of enzymes which complicates matters. The same sort of thing happens to people who've been 100% raw vegan for long lengths of time and who then sudden;y start eating raw animal foods.
Lol, don't even get me started on the wreckage of my digestive system I wrought through eating vegan/rawvegan.
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I don't understand your answer, Tyler. Let me try rephrasing the question: by about when should this inevitable increase in intolerance of raw fruit occur for me? What's the latest that it would occur? I was actually hoping that as my body healed I would be able to better handle eating some raw fruit like berries in the future, but it sounds like you're saying that the opposite will happen. Bummer.
Each time I reduced my carb intake, even from raw fruits, I experienced health improvements, even though I was still eating significant carbs. So my problems with all plant carbs, including fruits (I haven't noticed any obvious symptoms from limited amounts of some raw veggies like spring greens and broccoli, but their carb content is pretty negligible), were occurring before I went ZC. I was hoping that after a certain amount of time giving my body a break from carbs I might be able to reintroduce small amounts of berries and such without re-triggering symptoms.
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Pemmican is not the best food as it contains cooked fat.
Pemmican contains no cooked fat. It contains rendered fat. There is a difference.
If pemmican is made with cooked fat it is inedible to some.
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I don't understand your answer, Tyler. Let me try rephrasing the question: by about when should this inevitable increase in intolerance of raw fruit occur for me? What's the latest that it would occur? I was actually hoping that as my body healed I would be able to better handle eating some raw fruit like berries in the future, but it sounds like you're saying that the opposite will happen. Bummer.
Each time I reduced my carb intake, even from raw fruits, I experienced health improvements, even though I was still eating significant carbs. So my problems with all plant carbs, including fruits (I haven't noticed any obvious symptoms from limited amounts of some raw veggies like spring greens and broccoli, but their carb content is pretty negligible), were occurring before I went ZC. I was hoping that after a certain amount of time giving my body a break from carbs I might be able to reintroduce small amounts of berries and such without re-triggering symptoms.
My experience has been that eating a lot of animal fat strengthens my digestive system and lets me cope with other foods, when I do eat them.
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Pemmican contains no cooked fat. It contains rendered fat. There is a difference.
If pemmican is made with cooked fat it is inedible to some.
Pemmican is indeed cooked fat. Heated fats(including rendered fats) are by definition cooked.
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I don't understand your answer, Tyler. Let me try rephrasing the question: by about when should this inevitable increase in intolerance of raw fruit occur for me? What's the latest that it would occur? I was actually hoping that as my body healed I would be able to better handle eating some raw fruit like berries in the future, but it sounds like you're saying that the opposite will happen. Bummer.
Each time I reduced my carb intake, even from raw fruits, I experienced health improvements, even though I was still eating significant carbs. So my problems with all plant carbs, including fruits (I haven't noticed any obvious symptoms from limited amounts of some raw veggies like spring greens and broccoli, but their carb content is pretty negligible), were occurring before I went ZC. I was hoping that after a certain amount of time giving my body a break from carbs I might be able to reintroduce small amounts of berries and such without re-triggering symptoms.
I simply meant that the digestive system changes in terms of enzymes/types of bacteria so that switching to radically different foods suddenly , will cause digestive issues, whether from all-meat to all-veg or vice-versa. As for your issues re carbs, I am perfectly well aware that some people can develop issues with carbs or fats or develop allergies to unusual, specific foods etc, due to particular health-problems etc, but that is quite another issue. I was in the above example referring to the experiences of most people, not just a particular segment.
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Pemmican is indeed cooked fat. Heated fats(including rendered fats) are by definition cooked.
Rendered fat such as is used to make pemmican is pure fat, an essential nutrient. Fat that is merely heated is neither pure nor paleo.
An interesting note: the USDA National Nutrient Database contains no listing for beef fat!
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I simply meant that the digestive system changes in terms of enzymes/types of bacteria so that switching to radically different foods suddenly , will cause digestive issues, whether from all-meat to all-veg or vice-versa. As for your issues re carbs, I am perfectly well aware that some people can develop issues with carbs or fats or develop allergies to unusual, specific foods etc, due to particular health-problems etc, but that is quite another issue. I was in the above example referring to the experiences of most people, not just a particular segment.
OK, so I won't necessarily experience an increase in raw fruit intolerance from going ZC? Just some or most people? I'm actually hoping that the opposite will occur and as I heal I'll be able to tolerate raw fruit like berries a little better.
Re: rendered suet and pemmican--I've found a convenient way to melt it at very low temps that fit the definition of raw even under Tyler's stated strict standards. I set my crock pot to warm instead of low and leave chopped suet in it for a longer time period. It doesn't get as much of the liquid fat out but it seems to get a surprisingly decent quantity, despite the suet never getting to a temperature that would burn my finger if I stick it in (it's just warm--not even hot). It seemed to work OK in my first attempt. I'll let people know how it goes for me in the longer run.
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Re: rendered suet and pemmican--I've found a convenient way to melt it at very low temps that fit the definition of raw even under Tyler's stated strict standards. I set my crock pot to warm instead of low and leave chopped suet in it for a longer time period. It doesn't get as much of the liquid fat out but it seems to get a surprisingly decent quantity, despite the suet never getting to a temperature that would burn my finger if I stick it in (it's just warm--not even hot). It seemed to work OK in my first attempt. I'll let people know how it goes for me in the longer run.
The heat is relevant for taste - better at lower rendering temperature.
Critical importance for me is:
1- that the tallow should be dry, as I stash some of every batch and expect it to keep for years or decades.
2- free of denatured/overcooked proteins/connective tissue or whatever the solid bits are.
I react badly to denatured/overcooked proteins, and TD has a list here of the poisons created by cooking them.
(to which he is blind so that he can claim that tallow is the same as cooked fat)
What temperature does your crockpot maintain at a warm setting?
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OK, so I won't necessarily experience an increase in raw fruit intolerance from going ZC? Just some or most people? I'm actually hoping that the opposite will occur and as I heal I'll be able to tolerate raw fruit like berries a little better.
That might be possible. I mean, the big difference between people with my OK experience re carbs and yours and Lex's and others experiencing seriously negative symptoms might be due to the latter going through decades of eating very refined carbs, seriously harming your digestive system in some particular ways thus making you unusually hypersensitive to carbs, so that prolonged healing, and not eating carbs during that time, might eventually allow you to eat (some) carbs again without issues at a much later date. The reason I mention this possibility is that I know of wolves eating wild berries without apparent side-effects, and some of the Inuit appear to eat a few berries in summer and don't seem to have the issues you and Lex describe.
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The heat is relevant for taste - better at lower rendering temperature.
Critical importance for me is:
1- that the tallow should be dry, as I stash some of every batch and expect it to keep for years or decades.
2- free of denatured/overcooked proteins/connective tissue or whatever the solid bits are.
I react badly to denatured/overcooked proteins, and TD has a list here of the poisons created by cooking them.
(to which he is blind so that he can claim that tallow is the same as cooked fat)
What temperature does your crockpot maintain at a warm setting?
What a load of rubbish! Rendering produces heat-created toxins, too.Indeed Gary Via from the other group pointed out that rendering was actually worse than simple heating, as it was a more radical process.
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The reason I mention this possibility is that I know of wolves eating wild berries without apparent side-effects, and some of the Inuit appear to eat a few berries in summer and don't seem to have the issues you and Lex describe.
Yes, and I know that coyotes eat wild berries as well--and probably wild dogs. My sister even saw the partially digested berries in coyote dung afterwards--they did not digest them very well. The fact that canines eat wild berries is one reason I was hopeful I might be able to handle them some day, at least in limited quantities and frequency.
Thanks for the video of the wolves by the way. I got tired of the coprophagia debate, and didn't want to possibly turn new members off with too much on the subject, but I'll respond when I get interested again. The vid is evidence I can use with vegetarians and others who think that humans cannot be carnivores simply because we can eat plant foods. The fact that wolves are carnivores (with digestive systems relatively similar to our own, BTW) and eat plant foods shows this is not true. Many vegetarians claim we are herbivores or frugivores or plant-heavy omnivores because they don't understanding that the only carnivores that don't eat some plant foods in the wild are obligate carnivores like cats and tarsiers. Since eating some plant foods doesn't make one an omnivore--and definitely not an herbivore--the fact that wolves eat berries actually makes it more plausible that humans might be carnivores who eat some plant foods.
There's even a carnivore that eats over 99% plant food in the wild, proving even more convincingly than wolves that eating plant foods proves nothing when it comes to carnivory. Are you familiar with it?
I think we are either the heavyiest meat-eating of all omnivores or carnivores that happen to eat plants. Not sure which, and it may not be clarified until much more research is done.
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There's even a carnivore that eats over 99% plant food in the wild, proving even more convincingly than wolves that eating plant foods proves nothing when it comes to carnivory. Are you familiar with it?
panda bears
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Yes, and I know that coyotes eat wild berries as well--and probably wild dogs. My sister even saw the partially digested berries in coyote dung afterwards--they did not digest them very well. The fact that canines eat wild berries is one reason I was hopeful I might be able to handle them some day, at least in limited quantities and frequency.
I've seen dogs eat blackberries right off the vine, and coyotes are known to eat fruit of all kinds.
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Panda bears is correct--giant pandas, to be precise. Over 99% of their diet is bamboo, despite being carnivores. The result? They are one of the fattest, sleepiest, heaviest-crapping species on the planet, they have low fertility rates even in the wild, their offspring look like premies (tiny, blind, helpless, with very little hair for a wild animal), even the adults have unusually poor vision for wild animals, zookeepers try to keep their weight down with forced exercise, and people say that pandas are "lazy." Remind you of another species?
Coyotes will eat fruit that they can reach, yes, so that would also include drops.
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What a load of rubbish! Rendering produces heat-created toxins, too.Indeed Gary Via from the other group pointed out that rendering was actually worse than simple heating, as it was a more radical process.
We need a respectable source for the claim of "toxic" tallow, and and explanation of why millions have eaten it for thousands of years without harm.
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We need a respectable source for the claim of "toxic" tallow, and and explanation of why millions have eaten it for thousands of years without harm.
I already gave 1 study as an example of the heat-created toxins in tallow. Here it is yet again:-
http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/jf00070a016
And people have been eating cooked animal fats for thousands of years yet still we have many people suffering ill-health as a result of eating high-quality(ie grassfed) cooked animal fats(I'm just 1 of many, in this regard).
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I already gave 1 study as an example of the heat-created toxins in tallow. Here it is yet again:-
http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/jf00070a016
I get a notice of:"Your current credentials do not allow retrieval of the full text."
then I read what the .pdf shows, and here it is:
"The in vivo measure of protein quality indicated that storage had no significant effect on soy-based formula.
The in vitro measures indicated smaller changes in DRL and browning activity than were seen with the milk-based formula. Several factors may have contributed to this finding; (1)the storage conditions chosen did not give a maximun reaction; (2) corn syrup solids served as the carbohydrate source instead of the more reactive simple sugars; (3) the methods used were not sensitive enough to detect any differences."
If you are trying for irrelevant, you have outdone yourself.
And people have been eating cooked animal fats for thousands of years yet still we have many people suffering ill-health as a result of eating high-quality(ie grassfed) cooked animal fats(I'm just 1 of many, in this regard).
I don't doubt your reaction to cooked animal fats, after all I have similar reaction to proteins cooked more than medium, and these bad proteins are in cooked animal fats.
However, properly made tallow contains little or no such proteins. And people flourish while eating it - note delfuego's story; there are others.
Your position is unsupported
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William, that's the end of a prior study. Look below that to find the study Tyler referred to.
In fairness, the tallow in the study was refined and deodorized, but it is still suggestive of toxins from heating of any tallow, in my opinion and my standard caution about unproven new foods therefore suggests I should not eat too much cooked fats--at least not heated to 155+ degrees, as in that study.
The more I read about cooking, the more I think early hominids probably cooked plant foods like yams first and continued to eat meat mostly raw until much later. Many plants have to be cooked to be edible, but meats don't. I don't know at what point hominids started cooking the meats, but based on the studies I'm guessing that for some reason it would take a long, long time for humans to adapt to the toxins from cooked animal fats, just as mountain gorillas have not fully adpated to eating raw plants after 5 million plus years (they have to eat clays/charcoal and feces to avoid overaccumulation of toxins and malnutrition). However, a factor in the latter incomplete adaptation may be that the plants adapt to gorilla predation by increasing their toxin levels over time to survive, whereas meats cannot adapt. Given that, I could see where it might be possible for humans to eventually adapt to cooked fats, but my guess is we are not there yet, if it is even possible.
My understanding is that Wrangham and his lot assume that hominids must have started cooking meats shortly after they started cooking tubers, because they think cooked meats taste so much better than raw. I think this is a false assumption based on his own unfamiliarity with raw meats. Most of us here find raw meat/fish tastes very good after we've gotten used to it. Hominids started out eating raw meats from birth, so they likely would have found them even more tasty raw than us.
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My apology to TD for going off half-cocked. My browser ate the real article.
Re:http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/jf00070a016
More junk science, as they don't say what fat the tallow was made from. Presumably that of commercial fodder fed animals, and not necessarily beef.
1- Saponified to get something to analyze.
2- Continuously heated at 155C/311F.
"The present study was initiated ("initiated is a $2 word meaning "started" WS)to investigate whether cholesterol in tallow will undergo oxidation when it is heated at elevated temperatures similar to deep fat frying
3- The subject changes to oils used for deep frying, leading me to wonder what it is they called tallow.
Since nobody uses beef tallow for deep frying AFAIK, there would be no point in doing a study of it.
The article reports on something none of us have ever consumed, and never would. Useless.
We have been through this before, and there is still no evidence that anyone anywhere at anytime has ever been harmed by consuming properly made tallow.
There is overwhelming evidence that consuming properly made beef tallow does nothing but good.
Given the above, I can only conclude that the concern about health qualities of tallow is a result of decades of scare stories/low fat hate propaganda, and therefore not rational.
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That's a good point about the study cooking to 155C/311F, William. When I first looked at it I thought it read 155F. I was heating my tallow to 200F, not 311F, and now I only warm it to melt it--I can stick my finger in it the whole time. It's less heat than what the sun would provide.
So we still have no evidence of suet heated to 200F causing any harm, but I'm experimenting with just warming it to be on the safe side. I discovered that other people online do the same thing.
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It's a simple fact that any animal fat cooked above 40 degrees celsius causes harm, in some fashion. Above 40 degrees celsius, the enzymes in the raw foods start getting destroyed, and even light cooking/boiling causes heat-created toxins to form, such as advanced glycation end products. While studies on temperatures lower than 100 degrees Celsius are very few and far between, it's reasonable to assume that they occur at some stage well below 100 degrees celsius, as the current figures/reports do show some levels of toxins for boiled foods, indicating a starting-point for toxin-formation at a significantly lower temperature.
As for claims re tallow coming from grassfed meat being healthy, that's absurd, all cooked meats, however grassfed or grainfed, contain some levels of heat-created toxins.
Also, William, I don't mind such nonsense claims about tallow being supposedly the perfect food, if they're in the hot topics forum(or weston-price)(as long as they're backed up by decent, solid scientific claims, not silly comments about some obscure, single member of another board(DelFuego) but it's inappropriate to put such nonsense in a topic in this or other forums. Please desist.
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Also, William, I don't mind such nonsense claims about tallow being supposedly the perfect food, if they're in the hot topics forum(or weston-price)(as long as they're backed up by decent, solid scientific claims, not silly comments about some obscure, single member of another board(DelFuego) but it's inappropriate to put such nonsense in a topic in this or other forums. Please desist.
TD, the nonsense is not coming from me.
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I failed to mention another reason I'm not heating anything above 40 degrees Celsius--to give the dietary model proposed by this forum a fair chance. The founder of the ZC forum requests that people try his approach before knocking it and I think that is only fair here as well. Right now I'm trying to give both approaches a try at the same time, though I do cheat every now and then.