Paleo Diet: Raw Paleo Diet and Lifestyle Forum
Raw Paleo Diet Forums => Hot Topics => Topic started by: roony on January 26, 2010, 07:05:36 pm
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After researching my material into the deleterous effects of honey, I realised the honey combs & honey sold today is UNFIT for consumption
The main fact i realised is the lack of a queen bee in modern hives, without a queen bee, royal jelly & grubs are severely reduced, the main components of honey
Because of the chronic low levels of royal jelly, protein from grubs & lack of wax which contains & stores the propolis & pollen, without them honey is simply a high concentration of sugar
I've found a way round this & we can quite easily create a honey almost as close to raw wild honey
Using my research i created what I call the Raw Paleo Honey Recipe
The Raw Paleo Honey Recipe is ...
All bee keepers & farms, who grow their honey by hand, sell the stuff they scrape off the frame by hand as Wax Clippings
These wax clipping contain high amounts of pollen & propolis
You can also buy the Royal Jelly from bee farms who specialise in raising queen bee's
Royal jelly contains massive amounts of protein from bee grubs or larvae
Also you can buy freeze dried pollen
Combine the above & you have a honey high in protein from bee grubs & tons of wax & pollen & royal jelly, as close as to raw wild honey
All this WITHOUT the high sugar & glycemic index of honey
The raw paleo honey recipe, wax clippings, royal jelly, freeze dried pollen, dipped in small amounts of raw honey
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Huh? Missing queen bee in honey farms?
Somehow that is not the practice in the Philippines in the 2 honey farms I visited and in the honey making class session I attended.
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In framed hives, they keep the queen bee seperate
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In the class I attended, the teacher showed that the queen bee was free to move about in the whole box / home they had. This teacher was a caucasian American from the USA on visit after a honey makers convention.
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hmm, basically the honey grows on thin frames, which the farmer pulls out, in sections of frames, the queen bee is kept under the hive
This way the frames & sections the farmer pulls out, never comes in contact with the queen bee, royal jelly, or the protein from the grubs etc
In a natural hive, the hive is basically round, all sections of the honey come in contact with the queen bee & the larvae etc.,
In a box of frames. the only sections which come in contact with the queen bee, are the last few frames, right at the back of the hive
This is why honey is bad for you, the honey aajonus is talking about comes from natural round hives, growing on tree's ... in friggin PRISTINE environments !!!
I basically cant be bothered to import in wild honeycomb, as its impossible to tell the quality
Most importantly, you cant control the levels of royal jelly & grubs in your honey, as farmers & bee keepers, dont specialise in maximising the content of royal jelly & protein
Which is why its much easier & healthier, to make your own & use the Raw Paleo Honey recipe, to make super high quality honey
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From my notes, they basically use a queen bee excluder, a wire grid or metal sheet, to prevent the queen bee from moving around, so all the eggs & honeygrubs stay in one position in the hive behind the wire grid or sheet of metal or excluder
Note where it says "with no eggs or larvae mixed in it.", also a major note a large portion of the wax which contains the propolis & pollen is never put into the honey, its recycled back into the hive ...
The eggs & larvae, along with the royal jelly & a large of portion of wax are excluded & nothing is mixed with the rest of honey in the frame, leading to the massive high sugar index of honey, it needs the eggs, larvae, the royal jelly & the wax to dilute the sugar content & in order have any of the beneficial effects, aajonus talks about
http://www.bedfordshirebeekeepers.org.uk/page8.htm (http://www.bedfordshirebeekeepers.org.uk/page8.htm)
"It’s a good idea to separate stored honey from developing brood with young bees in it. If they are mixed you have a problem removing honey without killing brood. The solution, another 19C invention, is the “queen excluder”. This consists of a wire grid or a metal sheet with many accurately measured holes in it. A queen bee is just a fraction wider than a worker and she cannot get through a queen excluder. Therefore all her egg laying happens below the excluder and all the space above, to which the workers can come and go easily, is used for honey storage with no eggs or larvae mixed in it.
One of the advantages of movable combs in frames is that the honey can be extracted in a centrifuge without destroying the wax comb. The frames of comb can be used over and over again, refilled by the bees without the need to rebuild all that expensive wax."
So in trying to find out why honey is so bad, it turns out modern bee farmers & their hive, techniques are to blame for the pure sugar content of honey
Leading to the poor effect's we've been facing with honey, as recommended by aajonus
Hmm, ordering some royal jelly, wax clippings or honey cappings & freeze dried pollen & some honey comb, to make the raw paleo honey recipe
After two days of research i can now eat honey safely .....
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roony,
Have you experimented with different proportions of wax clippings, royal jelly, freeze dried pollen?
Can you estimate an ideal distribution of these in a real raw honey?
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good question,
i'd say a small amount of wax clippings/honey caps, one to three caps, & half a teaspoon of royal jelly & plenty of pollen on top, probably about one or two teaspoons
add a small chunk of honey comb & you've got some great nutritious honey, which hopefully because of its low sugar content & the special bee insulin in the royal jelly, should work exceeding well, as kipling says lol
The royal jelly is pretty concentrated so you only need small amounts
You need to keep the frozen pollen in the freezer & the royal jelly frozen, & the jelly you want to eat for the day in the fridge, as they only last a couple of days, or dry out very quickly
I also found out the wax they recycle usually contains pesticides & pollutants if they recycle it a few times, even more important to stay away from extracted honey, most liquid honeys in jars are extracted
You can also add propolis powder or even better propolis extract, the wax clippings/honey caps, contain propolis too, propolis contains alot of the anti bacterial contents of honey
I find honey on a slice of freshly opened coconut dipped in cream & bee pollen, tastes great
The coconut somehow negates alot of the sugar in the honey, interesting & taste great too
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roony,
Have you experimented with different proportions of wax clippings, royal jelly, freeze dried pollen?
Can you estimate an ideal distribution of these in a real raw honey?
The ideal distribution would be tons of honeygrubs, in real raw honey, we have to make do with the royal jelly containing the proteins etc., from the queen bee & larvae, you could add grubs of your own to the honey
You can grow bee larvae, or buy them, i need to look up how to do that without them making a hive out of my bedroom tho ...
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.... One of the advantages of movable combs in frames is that the honey can be extracted in a centrifuge without destroying the wax comb. The frames of comb can be used over and over again, refilled by the bees without the need to rebuild all that expensive wax."
So in trying to find out why honey is so bad, it turns out modern bee farmers & their hive, techniques are to blame for the pure sugar content of honey
Leading to the poor effect's we've been facing with honey, as recommended by aajonus ....
I've heard Aajonus say that he doesn't recommend centrifuged honey, as the centrifuging process heats it above the temp he recommends (which he states is 93 F in Recipe for Living Without Disease). Instead he recommended hand-packed honey. On the other hand, Brady reported remarkable results from likely centrifuged honey, so do you think it could be that the mild heating from centrifuging is not as damaging as Aajonus thinks?
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I just found this honey at the store which is absolutely delicious and I have been eating it like everyday now:
(http://images.bizrate.com/resize?sq=500&uid=807465646)
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I just found this honey at the store which is absolutely delicious and I have been eating it like everyday now:
(http://images.bizrate.com/resize?sq=500&uid=807465646)
Damn it! I love that brands honey I didn't realize they sold it with bee polen and royal jelly added. This entire time Ive been getting just raw honey from them. Thanks
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Damn it! I love that brands honey I didn't realize they sold it with bee polen and royal jelly added. This entire time Ive been getting just raw honey from them. Thanks
No problem! And it's absolutely delicious and very rich in taste. =D I grabbed it up when I saw it had royal jelly in it AND it's raw, because I've wanted to try royal jelly, and I'm glad I did, it tastes so good!
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that honey looks awesome I'll order some. Yo pretty sure wolves don't eat honey, just sayin'...
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I know, lol, but right now I'm trying to concentrate on eating a diet which will keep me from breaking out and help my acne go away, so I'm not really following a Wolf diet.. and it doesn't help that I can't find any good sources of grass-fed fat or grass-fed marrow or grass-fed liver. Plus this stuff just tastes delicious.. and bears eat honey, too, which seems alright to me. And who knows, Wolves might eat honey too sometimes, if they can get at it. Wolves just can't climb trees, so it's not like they can get it themselves.
And this super enriched honey that I found, it tastes very familiar, like I've eaten something that tastes like it before.. almost like caramel or something.. I don't know, but it's absolutely delicious.
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I've just bought some bee pollen alone when I went to visit family in Arizona, and they had a store with local honeys.. which also sold bee pollen. After trying this straight bee pollen, I've realized that the main taste in that super enriched honey I posted before is the taste of bee pollen.. which is absolutely delicious when mixed and sweetened with honey.
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I know, lol, but right now I'm trying to concentrate on eating a diet which will keep me from breaking out and help my acne go away, so I'm not really following a Wolf diet.. and it doesn't help that I can't find any good sources of grass-fed fat or grass-fed marrow or grass-fed liver. Plus this stuff just tastes delicious.. and bears eat honey, too, which seems alright to me. And who knows, Wolves might eat honey too sometimes, if they can get at it. Wolves just can't climb trees, so it's not like they can get it themselves.
And this super enriched honey that I found, it tastes very familiar, like I've eaten something that tastes like it before.. almost like caramel or something.. I don't know, but it's absolutely delicious.
You're trying to heal your acne by eating concentrated sugar? I would be rofl if I hadn't been in the same exact position doing the same exact thing 2 years back!
Give the honey a rest until your body has healed of the candida! For rills! I've been there, and now I'm in control of my health. You want those painful, ugly, embarrassing infections to go away and stay away? Quit eating grains, or any carbs and focus on raw fats and proteins, period. You should also be eating TONS of raw brightly colored, non root veggies. Trusssss me, I been der and that shite isn't fun. Theres a light at the end of the tunnel but you gotta stay away from sugars and starches, I promise!
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You're trying to heal your acne by eating concentrated sugar? I would be rofl if I hadn't been in the same exact position doing the same exact thing 2 years back!
Give the honey a rest until your body has healed of the candida! For rills! I've been there, and now I'm in control of my health. You want those painful, ugly, embarrassing infections to go away and stay away? Quit eating grains, or any carbs and focus on raw fats and proteins, period. You should also be eating TONS of raw brightly colored, non root veggies. Trusssss me, I been der and that shite isn't fun. Theres a light at the end of the tunnel but you gotta stay away from sugars and starches, I promise!
I've had acne all my life and finally on rpd its gone. I get flare ups if I cheat and eat grains or sugar(rarely). But honey doesn't do that at all. In fact it helps. Raw carbs don't seem to affect my acne just cooked ones. Maybe your honey wasn't 100% raw?
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In my case even unheated, hand-packed 100% raw honey can trigger acne if I eat too much of it, but strangely, not as much as raw organic fruits. One only needs to search a low-carb forum to find that there are plenty of other people who report that there acne cleared up when the cut down on the carbs, even raw carbs like fruits. Interestingly, it seems like I get a bit less acne from fermented raw honey than from unfermented raw honey like the YS Organic Bee Farms Super Enriched honey pictured above, but I still do get it if I go overboard.
Then there are also folks who eat high fruit diets and have their acne clear up. It seems to depend on the individual.
And in my case a wolf diet cleared up my acne and the more I eat like a wolf the better I avoid new outbreaks. The downside of the wolf diet for me is not acne, but constipation. Lex, on the other hand, only had temporary constipation from a wolf diet and is fine now. In my case I had pre-existing GI issues, so it's not surprising that they continued. I've learned from all this not to apply my personal experience to everyone else, because there are others whose experience has been quite different from mine.
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anybody knows if raw honey raises insulin?
and is it healthy to eat it in huge ammounts?
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oOoo new diet! Wolf diet? Coolness!
Yeah, I'm not saying that some people can't handle raw honey with acne, but IMHO the evidence is pretty stacked against the stuff, and since it is not essential to the healing process, why take the chance? Of course if you have already eliminated honey from your diet for a long period of time or over several periods and noticed consistently that it doesn't exacerbate acne infections, then go for it! But if you haven't I highly recommendo.
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i tried eating raw honey and it took a whole month for my teethache to go away.
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As for glucose and insulin raising, again, it all depends on the individual. Raw honey raises my blood glucose quite a bit, which presumably causes the insulin to rise in response, though it usually normalizes again within a couple hours and not everyone's blood glucose is raised by honey, apparently. The degree to which people's BG rises also varies. Only way to know for sure is to get a meter and measure your own BG.
As for whether eating raw honey in huge amounts is healthy, that probably depends on a number of factors, though I would be careful with it, especially until you get a sense for how you handle it. In my case I get acne, dental problems and other issues if I eat too much. The most honey I've read of a hunter-gatherer tribe eating was 20% of calories from honey. Some settled traditional peoples that store honey and make mead probably eat more, particularly if you count the mead. If I didn't know how I fared on honey, I would research it myself and err on the side of caution by starting out with small amounts or none and I wouldn't let it crowd out my consumption of pastured/wild organs, meat/fish and animal fat, but I could be misguided. Does any guru recommend large amounts of honey other than Aajonus?
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Does any guru recommend large amounts of honey other than Aajonus?
It has been praised as a wonderful healing food since the ancient Egyptians.
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It has been prised as a wonderful healing food since the ancient Egyptians.
Yeah but still, I haven't heard it being recommended for daily consumption in large amounts.
I myself would always take fruit over honey; any fruit will be more nutritious than the equivalent amount of honey (equivalent in terms of sugar).
It might be better as a healing food though, as there's no fiber so much easier on digestion, and it gives energy quickly (well it's basically sugar). But if you're not sick, I don't see the point.
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Yeah but still, I haven't heard it being recommended for daily consumption in large amounts.
I myself would always take fruit over honey; any fruit will be more nutritious than the equivalent amount of honey (equivalent in terms of sugar).
It might be better as a healing food though, as there's no fiber so much easier on digestion, and it gives energy quickly (well it's basically sugar). But if you're not sick, I don't see the point.
I have experienced no ill effect from honey. Quit the contrary. To much sugary fruit makes me sluggish honey gives me energy. Especially combined with butter and/or milk.
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Does table sugar (sucrose) give you the same energy?
http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/sweets/5568/2
I don't see how is this any different than pure sugar. Don't tell me that the raw honey contains more vitamins/minerals than this analysis which I assume is heated honey, except maybe for the tiny bit of vitamin C it has.
Raw honey may have some enzymes/other stuff which help in digestion or have other healing properties, but that doesn't change the fact that nutritionally it's pure sugar.
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I don't see how is this any different than pure sugar.
Well, for one thing, table sugar is heated and refined and depleted of what little nutrients it has, whereas truly raw honey is not.
Raw honey may have some enzymes/other stuff which help in digestion or have other healing properties, but that doesn't change the fact that nutritionally it's pure sugar.
If it contains enzymes and other stuff then by definition it's not pure sugar.
I agree that fruits are probably superior overall to honey for healthy people and I haven't yet seen any guru/expert other than Aajonus recommend regular consumption of large amounts (and I suspect that that's not a good idea), but are you sure you aren't exaggerating? Isn't there enough science at this point to at least suggest (not conclude) that raw honey may have some additional beneficial properties?
Some honeys contain royal jelly, which contains insulin-like polypeptides (K.J. Kramer et al, Purification of insulinlike peptides from insects haemolynph and royal jelly, Insect Biochemistry, 1982, http://ddr.nal.usda.gov/bitstream/10113/11676/1/IND82045335.pdf and K. Münstedt, Royal Jelly Reduces the Serum Glucose Levels in Healthy Subjects, 2009, www.liebertonline.com/doi/pdf/10.1089/jmf.2008.0289), which may help prevent the potential ill effects of fructose (Substituting Honey for Refined Carbohydrates Protects Rats from Hypertriglyceridemic and Prooxidative Effects of Fructose, http://jn.nutrition.org/content/132/11/3379.full)
Other potential benefits:
In vitro investigation into the potential prebiotic activity of honey oligosaccharides.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15826039
"Honey oligosaccharides seem to present potential prebiotic activity (PI values between 3.38 and 4.24), increasing the populations of bifidobacteria and lactobacilli, although not to the levels of FOS (PI of 6.89)."
Antibacterial Efficacy of Raw and Processed Honey
http://www.sage-hindawi.com/journals/btri/2011/917505/
The present study concluded that honey has both bacteriostatic as well as bactericidal activity against many pathogens.
Effect of antibacterial honey on the ocular flora in tear deficiency and meibomian gland disease.
Cornea. 2006 Oct;25(9):1012-9.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17133045
"CONCLUSION: From these results, there is sufficient preliminary data to warrant further study of the effects of antibacterial honey in chronic ocular surface diseases."
Honey as a Protective Agent against Lipid Oxidation in Ground Turkey
http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/jf010820a
"Honey has great potential as an antioxidant source and may result in greater acceptability of meat products and prevent negative health implications of oxidized meats."
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Does table sugar (sucrose) give you the same energy?
http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/sweets/5568/2
I don't see how is this any different than pure sugar. Don't tell me that the raw honey contains more vitamins/minerals than this analysis which I assume is heated honey, except maybe for the tiny bit of vitamin C it has.
Raw honey may have some enzymes/other stuff which help in digestion or have other healing properties, but that doesn't change the fact that nutritionally it's pure sugar.
that is not raw honey in the nutritiondata. No table sugar does the same as fruitsugar (cooked)starches etc. Too much carbs make me sluggish raw honey doen't. Brady also has very good effects from honey. It may be possible that a lot of people try what they think is raw honey(but which is not) get some bad effects and give up. There are other factors involved too. I only buy honey from wild flowers, and bees that get to keep some of their honey for th winter(instead of getting table sugar). A lot of honeys are from only 1 type of flower like sunflower clover etc. this might make a real difference. Than off course there is the race of bee's used wheter or not they have natural wax hives or plactic ones if the queen is present etc etc so many variables. If you want to know for sure you can handle real raw honey buy a mask and get some from a wild hive.
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Raw honey, nor fruits, don't seem to have many ill effects on me. I'm sure pure raw honey is not nearly as good for you as if you were able to eat whole honey, including the propolis, bee's wax, honeycomb, royal jelly, bee pollen, etc. all together, straight from the hive. The raw honey I mainly eat proclaims on the label that it is never heated, filtered, or strained, that they promote organic methods of raising bees, no pesticides are ever used, and that the honey still contains pollen, propolis, and honeycomb.. and indeed, when I open the jar, there is a layer of these bits that have risen to the top. And despite the fact that I often eat this honey, and that I eat fruits everyday, my face has been clearing up more and more as time passes. Slowly, but surely.
Now you see, I'm pretty sure the raw honey that I've seen at trader joe's, is not nearly as healthy or beneficial as my other honey.. it's obviously filtered or strained, seeing as it has no bits and pieces in it, and is also quite possibly centrifuged, which I heard is also bad for the honey.
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Yes, Aajonus said that he measured the temp. of centrifuged honey and found that the centrifuge heated the honey above the level he recommends. This has been discussed before in this forum if someone wants more info on it and I seem to remember seeing a Youtube video on it.
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I'm curious as to what should we do about honey - the mixing thing, etc? I wish we could go up to a hive with smoke and sheets and get our own...
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Techydude, the answer to most of your questions is "Search is your friend." Do a little searching of this forum and the Internet and you'll find multiple raw honey makers include other bits of the hive, such as propalis, wax cappings, royal jelly, etc. in their honeys. Try different ones and see which you prefer for health and/or taste reasons or whatever other reasons are important to you. I read what people recommended here and what Aajonus recommended and tried a dozen or more of the recommended national, international and local raw and nearly raw honeys before I settled on the fermented version of Really Raw brand honey, which includes "a layer of crunchy bits of pollen, propolis, and capping wax that crown each jar" (though it can get mixed in during shipping so that it's not noticeable). It's only by trying different honeys and reading about the differences that you'll know which are best for you, if any. For me it turned out that the two characteristics of honey that produced the best health and taste results up to now are fermentation and true rawness (not centrifuged). Aajonus recommended the Really Raw brand and I've found his recommendation to be a good one.
I'm hoping that some day a local honey producer will make a honey that is truly raw (not centrifuged) and fermented. Unfortunately, most beekeepers don't understand the benefits of true rawness and fermentation (they tend to regard fermentation as a bad thing). It would really be cool if someone would sell grubcomb too.
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Oh I bought some really raw brand honey, too, it's really good, tastes great, and has all those bits and pieces like my other honey I eat.. Really Raw honey is Really Expensive honey too, though, lol. The other honey I get which I love is Wee Bee Honey.. they have a website, too.
http://www.weebeehoney.net/about-us.html
I can get a 2lb jar of honey for less than $20, whereas my Really Raw honey was $7.69 for 8oz.
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I buy in bulk from the aviary for 3 canadian dollars/pound.
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Wofl, I buy a 1 lb jar and by the case from Really Raw, so it's cheaper than that for me. Maybe I'll try WeeBee some day too. Thanks for the info.
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I buy in bulk from the aviary for 3 canadian dollars/pound.
thats dirt cheap
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thats dirt cheap
That's typical around here. Check with a local aviary, it may be the same. You see I am saving them the trouble of putting it in a bottle and then cutting out the middlemen. The guy delivers it also.
Look in the phone book or go to the local health food store and look at the bottles for a telephone # and ask who the local beekeepers are. Then call them and ask how much you need to buy to get that price. We had to pay 5 dollars for the pail but it is reusable. We bought 70 pounds, but we could have bought a small amount for the same price.
The sooner you contact them the better as then they can plan out their season better.
They like the health food stores as they are steady customers but they like me even more because I am a big sale with less hassle.
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Wofl, I buy a 1 lb jar and by the case from Really Raw, so it's cheaper than that for me. Maybe I'll try WeeBee some day too. Thanks for the info.
I looked on the Really Raw website and calculated the pricing for the case(at $150.90 for a case of 24 8oz glasses), and it comes out to about $6.28 or so per each 8oz bottle.. which is still more expensive at over $25 for 2lbs of honey, while my weebee honey was $18.99 for a 2lb jar.. and the 1lb jar is already $14.70, which is only $4.29 cheaper for half as much honey.
Although those are the reallyrawhoney.com website prices, I don't know if you get your Really Raw honey from a different source that might be cheaper.
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I don't remember the exact price, but I pay less than $11/lb for the raw fermented honey direct from Really Raw.
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Check with a local aviary...
Wonderful idea! I did this and found one nearby. Saves me hunting around for real honey at farmer's markets and smaller stores.
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I don't remember the exact price, but I pay less than $11/lb for the raw fermented honey direct from Really Raw.
Oh, I didn't check the fermented honey prices.
Is fermented honey alcoholic? I'd like to try some, but not if it's in any way alcoholic.. I've never drank alcohol nor do I want to, and I don't want to drink or eat anything that might be even slightly alcoholic.
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Is fermented honey alcoholic?
No, but many people don't seem to believe me when I tell them that. Everyone accepts that raw fermented cabbage (sauerkraut) is not alcoholic but few will accept that raw fermented honey is not alcoholic because it gets confused with mead.