Paleo Diet: Raw Paleo Diet and Lifestyle Forum
Raw Paleo Diet Forums => General Discussion => Topic started by: kurite on February 13, 2010, 12:39:57 am
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Hi
I just recently started to squat rather than sit when the oppurtunity comes up. Unfortunately my body naturally does the american squat where my knees are forward and all my weight is on the ball of my foot instead of flat and straight knees. When I do force myself to make my entre foot touch the ground I always lose my balance and fall backwards. Even when i do not fall it is very tiring. Anyone know what I might be doing incorectly? Tips? Tricks? Anything.
Thanks
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my body naturally does the american squat where my knees are forward and all my weight is on the ball of my foot instead of flat and straight knees. Anyone know what I might be doing incorrectly? Tips? Tricks? Anything.
Thanks
Depends on your race - East Asians have proportionately shorter legs than most Americans, so their squat shall have a different balance point.
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Your problem is tight calf muscles. You didn't grow up squatting on a regular basis so your calf muscles shortened. Women who wear high heals every day have an even worse problem with this as they find they can't wear flat shoes or go bearfoot comfortably. Shortened calf muscles caused from wearing shoes with heals higher than the ball of the foot (even an inch or less) is also a main contributing cause to plantar fasciitis.
Anyway, the solution takes time as you must slowly stretch the calf muscles to allow a proper flat footed squat. Stretch two or three times per day every day of the week and within a few months you'll have no problem with a comfortable flat footed squat.
Lex
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Yep just practice. At the start you feel like you have to use your shin muscles too much but it gets easier. Also stick your knees under your arm pits and I point my feet out at 90 degrees to each other.
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funny request, but can someone show me an asian squat in an online photo?
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http://www.rawpaleoforum.com/exercisebodybuilding/paul-chek-on-squating-and-your-digestive-system/msg28668/#msg28668 (http://www.rawpaleoforum.com/exercisebodybuilding/paul-chek-on-squating-and-your-digestive-system/msg28668/#msg28668)
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thanks wodgina!
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thanks everyone also what are the benefits of doing the asian squat?
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The benefits of Asian (African, South American, traditional human, primate) squatting are covered extensively by Paul Chek's article and by me in that thread that was linked to. Also there is a description by Esther Gokhale of a modified squat that you may find a little easier, though you may have to modify your squat still further to start with.
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So, exactly what amount of squatting is best?
It would be nice to know in terms of duration/repetitions.
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Well, how many times a day do people who don't have throne chairs or toilets squat, do you figure?
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I would not look at them for tips because they are probably doing this as necessary and not seeking to optimize anything about it.
The "amount" could be different from person to person, depending of physical abilities. I'm trying to figure out a range for sqatting (as an exercise) that could benefit those who do not squat often.
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I would not look at them for tips because they are probably doing this as necessary and not seeking to optimize anything about it.
Sounds like they are doing what comes naturally in infancy onwards instead of relying solely on some guru's high theory on what is optimal, or unthinkingly conforming to Western conventions, yes?
The "amount" could be different from person to person, depending of physical abilities. I'm trying to figure out a range for sqatting (as an exercise) that could benefit those who do not squat often.
Yes, the amount can vary between individuals. For those who are not as used to squatting as I am, I would recommend going slow to start, as I suggested above. Esther Gokhale is very good about meeting people where they are rather than trying to force them to do things they aren't equipped to do. Esther is one of the few guru's on posture, flexibility, etc. who's any good because she spent a lot of time observing natural-living people in natural environs doing what comes naturally, instead of limiting her knowledge to textbooks written by people in ivory towers.
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...I do force myself to make my entre foot touch the ground I always lose my balance and fall backwards. ....
Here are some tips from Ben Fury that helped one lady improve her form for better balance so she could squat more easily:
http://forum.dirtycarnivore.com/index.php/topic,748.msg32078.html#msg32078
Quick question - when doing bodyweight squats, is it ok to widen the stance more than shoulder width apart?
I often rock back on my heels and feel a bit unsteady, but if I widen my feet out a little I feel more stable.
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Thanks Ben.
I started out with hands behind my head but I find I don't keep good form that way so now I'm doing the arms out in front just as you described.
Check out the form on these ladies. Extremely efficient and balanced:
Three Flying Ladies (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b4e-dp97Jfc)
I'm out of breath just watching them! Something to aspire to - for sure!
It's not the conditioning I want you to see. It's the form. Notice the wide set feet? Notice the out turned feet? Notice the free swinging arms? These are clues to how the pros do it. That's the lesson of this video. NOT to keep up. But HOW they do it.
Just an update - widened my stance quite a bit on the squats and shifted my toes outward - made it so much easier to do. Used swinging arms and no longer feel off balance at all.
I'm also MUCH more sore today (inner and back of thighs) so I'm guessing that my form has improved as well.
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PP are you talking Asian squats or these 'tabata' or hindu squatting exercises? or that these are beneficial for improving the former?
I've been doing bodyweight squats for some time and cannot at all sit with my feet planted and but on the floor in an Asian squat per a significant time period or without massive strain or falling backwards. I think its a leg length thing, as my flexibility is quite high.
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PP are you talking Asian squats or these 'tabata' or hindu squatting exercises? or that these are beneficial for improving the former?
I've been doing bodyweight squats for some time and cannot at all sit with my feet planted and but on the floor in an Asian squat per a significant time period or without massive strain or falling backwards. I think its a leg length thing, as my flexibility is quite high.
As Ben noted in his post, his tips were regarding form rather than doing them at advanced speeds, as with tabata. Improved form should help with any style that uses the form Ben recommended. The Asian man I posted an image of has the best form I've seen (other than a martial artist I've seen who also had perfect squatting form). The tabata ladies have decent form and despite not having perfect form they are able to perform some remarkable squatting feats.
MetalMama mentioned the same problem with falling backwards and said that Ben's tips helped her. Billions of people with various leg lengths, from short southern Chinese to giant Manchurians and northeast Africans, are able to do full squats as part of their everday lives, so I think it is more likely related to other potential factors like poor form, bones that have ossified into poor (ie modern American) forms, atrophied muscles, stiff or lax ligaments, and poor internal sense of balance. While ossified bones may limit what many Americans can do, I wouldn't give up on squats entirely. As I mentioned earlier in this thread, the modified squat may also help. Plus, gentle yoga postures that practice balance could also help. The atrophy and poor balance that Western sedentary behaviors like extended comfy-chair sitting, sleeping on soft mattresses, walking in overly cushioned shoes, etc. promote will continue to worsen your balance and strength as you age, so the sooner you can get started on trying to gently recoup some balance and strength, the better. Holding onto door handles or a pole can also help. Be careful with the pole, though, you might turn someone on. ;)
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I just perused the thread but it sounds like she was having trouble just doing the form of a regular bodyweight squat. probably swinging backward.
It could very well have to do with factors you mention, but if you look closely at these women, they would indeed topple over if they went fully down. They are also moving their feet off the ground, but that is probably minor criticism.
heres another pic. What I'm saying is I can actually replicate this entirely but can hardley even get my arms over my knees so the balance point is skewed, there is no stress on my legs other than the very base of my foot where it reaches the ankle. If I was squatting how these women are or with my feet angled, I could probably hold that for about 5 minutes, That used to be part of a kundalini set I used to do.
(http://lh6.ggpht.com/_DUaSIwAweyY/RsGld-y9LtI/AAAAAAAAEUM/rhcNzDrUjmw/DSCF8011.JPG[height="150"])
but, perhaps one can strengthen those remaining muscles, or become further 'open' through diet/yoga etc...
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griseled male pole squatters, what more could a woman want for her birthday.
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I just perused the thread but it sounds like she was having trouble just doing the form of a regular bodyweight squat. probably swinging backward.
Are you saying you can do a "regular bodyweight squat"? If so, why not practice those and work up from there? Don't be disappointed if you never reach the perfect form of those 3 gents in the photo you posted, as they've been squatting since not long after they were born and Esther Gokhale wrote in the article I linked to in the other thread that Western bones can become ossified into positions that make squatting and other natural postures difficult. This is one of the minor curses of Western civ. and is one reason why it is so important not to discourage youths from engaging in the squatting that comes naturally to them. I'm glad I didn't listen to my mother and kept squatting, though extensive Western chair sitting and years of the SAD have made me much less flexible than many Asians and Africans.
Based on my visit yesterday to a furniture store, Western furniture is getting worse. I just bought a couch and there were only 2 in the store that were close to naturally ergonomic and firm. Most were badly sloped and way too soft--both bad for the posture and likely to contribute to muscle and joint atrophy, stiffness and pain. No wonder the West leads the world in back and joint pain.
It could very well have to do with factors you mention, but if you look closely at these women, they would indeed topple over if they went fully down. They are also moving their feet off the ground, but that is probably minor criticism.
I doubt they wold topple over. If you look closely you'll see that their heels remain relatively flat. When they lift up their whole foot tends to go up instead of just the heel, except for a tiny bit of heel lift in one of them. If you can achieve that level of heel flexibility and balance then you should have zero problem doing a squat sit. If you are unable to, then, again, there is the modified squat sit that nearly anyone can do. I don't mean to be critical, but instead of focusing on possible reasons why you might not be able to do it wouldn't your chances for progress be greater by trying out the more doable-looking of the tips that Ben Fury, Esther Gokhale, teachers of gentle yoga poses, and others have recommended?
If I was squatting how these women are or with my feet angled, I could probably hold that for about 5 minutes, That used to be part of a kundalini set I used to do.
Exactly, angling the feet with the toes pointing out is part of the proper form, which is why it is taught in the kundalini set. Note that the men in the photo you posted have their toes pointed out. 5 minutes is an excellent start!
but, perhaps one can strengthen those remaining muscles, or become further 'open' through diet/yoga etc...
Yes, for example, my own balance and flexibility have improved greatly since I went VLC, which has improved my ability to do yoga poses, but I still have a ways to go. Even if I don't improve any further, at least I can work on maintaining the improved balance and flexibility I have attained.
griseled male pole squatters, what more could a woman want for her birthday.
:)
BTW, I'm not aware of anything wrong with balancing on the toes instead the full foot while squat sitting, like one of the fellows in that image you posted above. It actually requires more balance. I can do it on the toes of one foot, which is a yoga pose.
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I don't mean to be critical, but instead of focusing on possible reasons why you might not be able to do it wouldn't your chances for progress be greater by trying out the more doable-looking of the tips that Ben Fury, Esther Gokhale, teachers of gentle yoga poses, and others have recommended?
Well, I wouldn't be insulted anyway but I still don't think you get what I am saying
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jPSVpo4mzNI
here is the variation that I do, although this guy seems to do the same with his feet. For me, when I do these I have no problem keeping my feet perfectly flat. I can also keep my feet flat and do other poses like downward dog etc..that many people cannot do, and can reach mover my toes and grab my heals, which is not bad for having really long legs. But, they seem to present a problem for full asian squat in which this exact part of the feet feels very tense as I cannot lean forward easily, even thought i can fully engage with the posture otherwise. I bet many people can squat that arn't as flexible. I've done about a million of these bodyweight squats, and what i'm saying is, at the very most bottom out, which you can see on the slow mo or pause, its completely different physical posture to the way the man is sitting on the right, notice his feet position as well. I can hold this bottomed position, but it requires tons of leg strength, the asian man however he is not engaging these muscles at all.
I agree that many types of exercises, diet, yoga etc...have/can be beneficial and agree nothing but benefit will happen from continuted trying, but I think this is one case where physical makeup factors in quite heavily.
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...I've done about a million of these bodyweight squats, and what i'm saying is, at the very most bottom out, which you can see on the slow mo or pause, its completely different physical posture to the way the man is sitting on the right, notice his feet position as well. I can hold this bottomed position, but it requires tons of leg strength, the asian man however he is not engaging these muscles at all.
Here is the bottom of this fellow's Hindu squat:
(http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb251/fuzzwarmy/Ancestral%20Food%20and%20Lifestyle/FullHinduSquat.jpg)
(http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb251/fuzzwarmy/Ancestral%20Food%20and%20Lifestyle/AsianFullSquatSitsmall.jpg)
The only relevant differences I see are that his heels are raised, the butt is higher and the knees therefore lower and the toes are not quite as open, though they do also point outward. If he lowered his heels he would have a full Asian squat, so based on that it sounds like either the achilles area and/or balance is the key issue for you, yes? When I raise my heels and butt like that it engages my muscles and requires some strength and constant micro-adjustments to avoid tipping over. When I sit in full squat it relaxes my muscles and requires little or no strength or balance adjustment. When you try the full squat sit do you feel tension anywhere? Which muscles do you feel being used? Do you have any idea why you can't get your arms over your knees?
I agree that many types of exercises, diet, yoga etc...have/can be beneficial and agree nothing but benefit will happen from continuted trying, but I think this is one case where physical makeup factors in quite heavily.
By physical makeup do you mean permanent, unchanging makeup? If so, then I guess you answered your original question:
Anyone know what I might be doing incorectly? Tips? Tricks? Anything.
If it's mostly unchangeable makeup, which is possible, then no tips or tricks that one can give you will help much, right?
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The only relevant differences I see are that his heels are raised, the butt is higher and the knees therefore lower and the toes are not quite as open, though they do also point outward. If he lowered his heels he would have a full Asian squat, so based on that it sounds like either the achilles area and/or balance is the key issue for you, yes?
Well, we'll have to disagree on that. from my viewpoint, and the angle of his back, if his heel were to go any further down without any adjustment he would simply rock backwards. for me the tension is 100% in my feet, because my back, unlike the man I posted can not cannot curl over my high knees, and thus my feet, and to some degree my stomach, anchor my back from falling backwards.
if I put my feet closer, and raise my heels just slightly, sure I might be able to hold that for a very long time, but it would require some effort on balance. I don't really consider that a squat but a crouch. I've also been squatting 95% of all elimination for years, which is very beneficial, although that is more of a crouch as well
By physical makeup do you mean permanent, unchanging makeup? If so, then I guess you answered your original question:
If it's mostly unchangeable makeup, which is possible, then no tips or tricks that one can give you will help much, right?
It wasn't my question, I chimed in not to disagree with any info about helpful tips on improving squats, only to say that for some people that are taller they might experience problems if their torso isn't long enough to actually pivot over their knees. I probably wouldn't say this about any other physical feat, headstands, one arm pull-ups etc...but if one was to stretch the Asian man's legs outwards, you would see also how his back would have to straiten back.
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Other people have reported that Ben Fury's and Esther Gokhale's tips helped them. If they don't help you, that's unfortunate, but I'm not going to argue about it with you. The tips are there for people to try or not, it's up to the individual, and I don't recommend trying to force things and possibly injure oneself. Those who have great difficulty doing a single full squat sit may need to take extra care. Good luck!
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Phil, my first response which came way late into the thread was only to counter your original response to the OP, who reiterated that when he tried to do a full (Asian) squat, he fell backwards. You replied with a bunch of info on how to do bodyweight squatting exercises, which as I've tried to explain are 100% different, although I agree that one can benefit the other. For some reason you got it into your head that I was one in the same with the original poster, and was incapable of doing a squat bodyweight or otherwise. I'm actually capable of doing a full on feet flat Asian squat like the man on the right, but it is not at all comfortable or sustainable because of my leg length (at only 6'), whereas for the Asian man it requires 0 effort. What I am saying is its made complicated by body height especially, also someone who is very overmuscled or overweight or in some cases underheight (say especially like a midget) would NOT be able to execute a full Asian squat no matter how many bodyweight squats they can do. Picture Shaquille O'Neal in the backseat of a small vehicle, then picture him trying to elevate his ass of the ground without engaging his legs.
Ben Fury
Quote from: MetalMama on May 22, 2010, 09:26:46 AM
Just an update - widened my stance quite a bit on the squats and shifted my toes outward - made it so much easier to do. Used swinging arms and no longer feel off balance at all.
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There you go! Sound like an improvement all right. You're feeling the fact that you're now getting your adductors and hamstrings into the exercise.
Asian squats employ no such muscle groups, its like sitting on a chair for them. Ironically, if I put my legs closer together, I can actually rest my arms over my knees, but it would not be practical for things like eating.
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I'm actually capable of doing a full on feet flat Asian squat like the man on the right, but it is not at all comfortable or sustainable because of my leg length (at only 6'), whereas for the Asian man it requires 0 effort. What I am saying is its made complicated by body height especially, also someone who is very overmuscled or overweight or in some cases underheight (say especially like a midget) would NOT be able to execute a full Asian squat no matter how many bodyweight squats they can do. Picture Shaquille O'Neal in the backseat of a small vehicle, then picture him trying to elevate his ass of the ground without engaging his legs.
I spent almost an hour "Asian squatting" yesterday without much difficulty (we had a BBQ for my wife's family and were short on chairs). I'm 6'-3" with a 34" inseam. Height may complicate things some but I think it's influence is much less than things like musculature, flexibility, balance, etc.
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I spent almost an hour "Asian squatting" yesterday without much difficulty (we had a BBQ for my wife's family and were short on chairs). I'm 6'-3" with a 34" inseam. Height may complicate things some but I think it's influence is much less than things like musculature, flexibility, balance, etc.
do you have a pic? exactly like this?
http://www.rawpaleoforum.com/exercisebodybuilding/paul-chek-on-squating-and-your-digestive-system/msg28668/#msg28668
I do agree, my original comment was just that it was a factor, never that it couldn't be corrected for many body-types. I do disagree about musculature, because many people can squat or do calf raises at super high weights and I doubt it helps them any. FWIW my inseem is 35" at 6'0 so the ratio is a bit differnt. If one was to superimpose me on this man here, tucking my arms over my knees and therefore back posture and balance is affected by length.
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do you have a pic? exactly like this?
http://www.rawpaleoforum.com/exercisebodybuilding/paul-chek-on-squating-and-your-digestive-system/msg28668/#msg28668
I don't have a pic but could take one if you want. I do always squat just like the guy in the photo you linked to.
I have squatted or sat on the ground more than in a chair/on a bench/etc. since I was a kid. It just feels natural and I was never discouraged by my parents when younger so it stuck. The only time I couldn't comfortably do it was years ago when I had a badly torn meniscus in my knee.
I do agree, my original comment was just that it was a factor, never that it couldn't be corrected for many body-types. I do disagree about musculature, because many people can squat or do calf raises at super high weights and I doubt it helps them any. FWIW my inseem is 35" at 6'0 so the ratio is a bit differnt. If one was to superimpose me on this man here, tucking my arms over my knees and therefore back posture and balance is affected by length.
The musculature was more along the perceived lines of your lines of reasoning; A large bulk of muscles (overmuscled), particularly disproportionately located in either the torso or legs, would hinder the squatting abilities of the "squatee". I see this as a larger hindrance than height.
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ah, I see what you mean, yeah I'd say a Mr. Universe type would have a harder time than a 6'6 thin Ethiopian man. I thought you were referring to what others said about it having to do with muscles in the legs being necessary to do the pose.
thought you might have pics from the event or something, but yeah if you could take a pic it would be great to see members of the forum squatting. I'll try to post some myself.
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here is one attempt of me squatting.
I added a bunch of other variations on my journal as to not pollute the thread too much. I threw in some other kind of stretches and such for kicks - and comparisons of flexibility.
(http://www.rawpaleoforum.com/?action=dlattach;topic=2450.0;attach=797;image)
http://www.rawpaleoforum.com/journals/journalistica/msg36838/#msg36838
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... For some reason you got it into your head that I was one in the same with the original poster, and was incapable of doing a squat bodyweight or otherwise.
Actually, I was responding to this, where you indicated that you "cannot at all sit with my feet planted and but on the floor in an Asian squat per a significant time period":
I've been doing bodyweight squats for some time and cannot at all sit with my feet planted and but on the floor in an Asian squat per a significant time period or without massive strain or falling backwards. I think its a leg length thing, as my flexibility is quite high.
I do agree, my original comment was just that it was a factor, never that it couldn't be corrected for many body-types.
Then it looks like we are in agreement that even some tall people and people with long legs can do full Asian squat (assuming that other problems with bone ossification, muscle or ligament issues, etc. don't get in the way). I'm only a little shorter than you and I have no problems. I think it's partly because I've been squatting off and on my whole life.
Did you try any of Ben or Esther's tips to see if they would extend the time you can do a squat sit? Some of them apply to both squat exercises and squat sitting (such as pointing toes outward and utilizing the modified squat when necessary).
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anyone can just read the bottom of page 2 and see that you quote both kurite (the OP) and myself in the same quote, making it seem like I asked for a bunch of advice (which I didn't), and was somehow unappreciative of the answers. leg length or total height is not the issue per se but ratio, and have supplied pics that I believe illustrate this quite well. All I was saying for the sake of information is this ratio is something to consider. I also questioned the relevance of posting form from other kinds of bodyweight exercises, as in my experience this has nothing to do with squat sitting nor does it work to correct form, unless as you say possible changes occur in regards to gradual shifts in bone and tissue from their use. I could be wrong and have some kind of physical and intellectual incompetence about this, but unless you have info that directly talks about the issues I've brought up or pics of people with poor leg/torso ratios, giants, or midgits squat sitting, I've kind of lost interest in checking those threads from BF which do not even mention Asian squats. I've gleaned the 0 information there was to glean, unless he has some information elsewhere you can direct me to.
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I think I see what happened, KD. When I quoted this:
Quote from: kurite on February 12, 2010, 10:39:57 AM
Anyone know what I might be doing incorectly? Tips? Tricks? Anything.
I believe I meant to quote this:
Quote from: KD on May 28, 2010, 04:37:20 PM
I've been doing bodyweight squats for some time and cannot at all sit with my feet planted and but on the floor in an Asian squat per a significant time period or without massive strain or falling backwards. I think its a leg length thing, as my flexibility is quite high.
...in which I thought (within the context of the original topic re: a request for help on answers and tips for a non-Asian who has difficulty doing an "Asian" squat) that you were wondering whether leg length or other physical limitations were your sole problem or whether something else might also be involved and whether any tips might accommodate for your situation--but apparently not. Sorry for the misunderstanding.
Whatever your original intent, I'm sorry you didn't find Ben and Esther's tips to be of any use to your situation. I do find them useful with my own squat sitting (by which I mean the type illustrated by the Asian men in those photos you posted) as well as my squat exercises and they were also meant for Kurite and a wider audience of anyone else having difficulty doing either squat sitting or exercising--they were not meant to be taken as directed only to you.
I hope I have clarified things satisfactorily now. I have zero interest in making it seem like you're asking anything you don't intend to. It apparently was just a simple misunderstanding.
I also questioned the relevance of posting form from other kinds of bodyweight exercises, as in my experience this has nothing to do with squat sitting....
You're free to your opinion and I'm not interested in trying to convince you otherwise, so perhaps we can agree to disagree about that. Good luck to you on whatever course you take.
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You're free to your opinion and I'm not interested in trying to convince you otherwise, so perhaps we can agree to disagree about that. Good luck to you on whatever course you take.
well, you seemed pretty convinced of doing so, seeing since there was some reference to bodyweight or Ben Fury has pretty much been in every post, with not much else dealing with the actual content of what I posted.
I accept your mistake and am not otherwise upset, I just wish you actually responded with any specific evidence that address what I wrote, or accepted that I had any experience or knowledge on the subject.
they were also meant for Kurite and a wider audience of anyone else having difficulty doing either squat sitting or exercising--they were not meant to be taken as directed only to you.
Right, and the reason I chimed in was to provide a possible other explanation for others as well, not some to get off some existential guilt on the subject for my own sanity. If you hadn't questioned the validity of what I wrote, I probably would have the same 2 sentence contribution to this thread, however its led to some interesting debate.
again, I supplied pics, particularly of interest I think is the one with my ass completely on the ground, unable to get my upper body over my knees without engaging my abdomen. You can see raising my ass form this point would be impossible, and the other postures that are hold-able to be ridiculous. Unless you can make specific comments that might be helpful, or provide other relevant links or references, you can see how some random guy coaching a housewife from falling over just moving up and down - when I've done way more challanging squats for years - is not vibeing well for me to say the least.
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FWIW my inseem is 35" at 6'0 so the ratio is a bit differnt. If one was to superimpose me on this man here, tucking my arms over my knees and therefore back posture and balance is affected by length.
I think this difference is larger than a "bit different" (in comparison to djr's 6'3 height with 34" inseam). If I take the ratio of non-inseam length to inseam (assuming non-inseam length is simply height minus inseam) then the ratios will be 41:34 and 37:35 or 1.2:1 and 1.06:1 a substantial 13% difference. The ratio can change even more based on different combinations of head, neck and torso lengths. Perhaps others can chime in with their ratios. I don't know what my inseam is but if its based on what length pants I wear then my ratio is also at 1.2:1 - I thought I had longer than average legs but cannot confirm this. I have trouble asian squatting (pain around my ankles) but I also have trouble standing up straight for more than a little while so I'm a bad example.
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well, you seemed pretty convinced of doing so, seeing since there was some reference to bodyweight or Ben Fury has pretty much been in every post,
I don't agree with Ben on everything, but I found that what he posted in this case matched my own experience and was helpful in both squat sitting and squat exercises and that it helped someone else too, so I thought it worth posting. If you didn't find it helpful, that's fine too. My general philosophy is to find what works for me and when other people have asked for help I have tended to encourage them to do the same.
...with not much else dealing with the actual content of what I posted.
I must admit that I have had difficulty understanding some of the content of your posts in this thread, despite making an effort. I attribute this to mental deficiency on my part rather than any fault of yours, and apologize for my difficulty in fully grasping what you're trying to convey.
I accept your mistake and am not otherwise upset, I just wish you actually responded with any specific evidence that address what I wrote, or accepted that I had any experience or knowledge on the subject.
Thanks for believing me and I'm sorry that you didn't find value in my posts. While your experience doesn't match my own, I accept your experience as being valid for you and don't think it means you have no experience or knowledge on the subject. We can each share and maybe some people will find that your experience is helpful to them and maybe others will find that mine is helpful and maybe some will find both or neither helpful. To each their own.
If you hadn't questioned the validity of what I wrote,
I only question whether some of what you wrote necessarily applies to everyone, as not all of it applies to me. I didn't question that it all applies to you. I found much in DJR's posts in this thread that matches my own experience and found them very understandable. Did you get anything out of his posts?
again, I supplied pics, particularly of interest I think is the one with my ass completely on the ground, unable to get my upper body over my knees without engaging my abdomen. You can see raising my ass form this point would be impossible, and the other postures that are hold-able to be ridiculous. Unless you can make specific comments that might be helpful, or provide other relevant links or references, you can see how some random guy coaching a housewife from falling over just moving up and down - when I've done way more challanging squats for years - is not vibeing well for me to say the least.
I must confess that I'm not sure I fully understand what you're trying to say with these words and images, and I'm concerned that any comment I might make on your images and descriptions might not convey to you what I intend, which I'll write off to inadequacy on my part and distractions.
Ben is no more a "random guy" than you are. He's a frequent poster at the Dirty Carnivore forum and formerly at the ZIOH forum. His posts are just as relevant to me as yours and others have found them useful even if you don't. Again, that doesn't mean I vouch for everything he has written or ever will or that I think it will all apply to you, but he hardly deserves to be dismissed so readily by someone who apparently knows little about him. If you find anything wrong in the stuff of his that I linked to, feel free to share specifics. No offense intended, but so far I've found his writings on this subject to be more useful to my particular experience than your posts on it (but that doesn't mean I think the same would be true for your experience, of course).
This was pretty much what I too was trying to say in my posts: "my only purpose in the thread really was that these things are factors not that tall or fat people or myself are hopeless" (http://www.rawpaleoforum.com/journals/journalistica/msg36843/#msg36843). In other words, just because you have some physical limiting factors doesn't necessarily mean you should give up and maybe you might find something useful in what has helped other folks--or maybe not--and maybe you'll find your own solutions. No two people's experiences or problems are the same and I certainly didn't mean to imply that. Maybe we're just on different wavelengths, or maybe my error in quoting the wrong text at one point raised suspicions in you about me--I don't know. I certainly didn't mean any harm.
I found Paleo Donk's points here to come close to my own thoughts after viewing your images and comments - http://www.rawpaleoforum.com/journals/journalistica/msg36842/#msg36842 - and you don't seem to have had an issue with them, so maybe I can re-emphasize them here without causing any problems: "Yea, your leg to torso ratio seems to be greater than the asians I have seen squatting and your legs are probably a bit more muscular which as you mentioned will not help either. Seeing that you are already pretty flexible it seems doubtful that you'll be able to comfortably asian squat but you never know what practice can do. Are Asians known for having particularly long torso's? A quick googling says so." [Yes btw, I believe Asians do tend to have shorter legs and longer torsos, on avg, though there may be exceptions, since not all Asian peoples are alike. However, the ancestors of all human beings likely squat-sitted fairly commonly before the invention of chairs, so this shouldn't be turned into an excuse for people to not try squat sitting or exercising when it is safe to do so.] You even responded with what I have been trying to convey: "I'll continue to try various things." I never meant that anything I posted should be taken as a guarantee that it would work for you or anyone else--just try various things and find what works for you. That is the philosophy I have posted since I first joined this forum. Like PD said, you already look very flexible and come quite close to doing a full squat sit as it is, and maybe it's not possible with your body to go any further (as Gokhale mentioned in the article I linked to--not everyone can do a full squat and she even offered an alternative modified squat--did you see that?), and you shouldn't expect to necessarily do things precisely as Asians or anyone else does them, so I wouldn't fret over it. If it will help you get over the Asian hangup, use images of people of European or African descent instead of Asian ((http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:X0xMmNfEhUxAXM:http://www.yogaflavoredlife.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/squat-malasana.jpg), (http://media.onsugar.com/files/ed4/users/1/12981/16_2007/desk-squat.larger.jpg), (http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:60aIFJEYYUuSAM:http://media.onsugar.com/files/ons1/192/1922729/40_2009/64e9236ed395af2c_grounded-squat.larger.gif), (http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:tiPb3lJDRGh61M:http://dogonlanguages.org/photos/012_03_squat_JH.jpg), (http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:OWyw3hiVtGEkRM:http://www.charleshowell3.com/images/gal4%2520-%2520squatting.jpg), (http://www.oldtimestrongman.com/images10/harrygood_onelegsquat.gif)). Unfortunately, few people of European descent regularly squat-sit any more, so such images will be much harder to come by. These images may not be exactly what you're after, but maybe they provide a more realistic example of what you can achieve than a slender Asian fellow.
If you want to do even better than you're already doing, then go ahead and try various things and see what helps. If you desire further input, maybe PD can help you on this better than I have been able to. I've had a lot of distractions lately, so I'm probably not the one to give good focus to you at the moment--sorry.
I think this difference is larger than a "bit different" (in comparison to djr's 6'3 height with 34" inseam). ...
Yes, I think KD's ratio is unusual and may partly explain why he is less able than some to more fully squat (but he still squats rather well in his images--much better than my mother ;) ) and his body thus may not be an average representation for all people of European descent. Maybe it could be a factor in Kurite's squatting limitations too. I have close to 6' height and 33" inseams and can easily fully squat-sit with heels flat myself, but KD's ratio is more extreme than mine and I'm very thin.
Again, different people have different bodies, so folks should not get discouraged if they can't mimic perfectly what someone else does, nor should they assume that they can't necessarily do any "better" than someone else. AFAIK, the benefits of squat-sitting and squat exercises accrue whether one does them with the feet fully planted and arms in a certain way or not. Of course, one should avoid unhealthy postures, but excessive perfectionism should probably also be avoided if it is going to discourage someone from even trying. Hope this helps someone. If not, then I hope folks will try to find what works for them and not get too discouraged just because what has been posted here didn't match their own individual experience.
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sheesh, by random guy, I meant that exactly that its just quoting someone like myself on another thread - not making a judgment on the guy - and that isn't REALLY relevant at all as it was not dealing with Asian squatting or the issues we are discussing now. I've mentioned more than once if he had additional information somewhere I'd be happy to look at it. I'm really surprised you of all people are making these kinds of arguments. If the subject was 'carb eating' of traditional races, I think you'd probably be all over, well yourself for doing the opposite - the kind of universalizing and neglect of personal factors, especially in the face of personal evidence rather than subjectivity. I don't think I ever tried to talk about the western races, just those who move further from the ideal body type for such a thing.
As for the pics, I would say that other than the first woman (who again I would say has a physiological advantage just on a cursory glance) none of these pics are people doing a proper Asian squat, as I can do any one of these quite effortlessly. Its not really any perfectionism on my part - I promises I won't be punishing myself force squatting in front of Law and Order re-runs- just staying on topic. I have agreed numerous times that all these exercises are beneficial, and doing any of them show some physical prowess, but the topic being discussed is/was full on Asian squats.
but maybe I missed out on step 2?
(http://www.theolivepress.eu/articles/sports%20life%20funny/squat1.jpg)
:)
anyway, I totally agree with your last paragraph, which was really my point of commenting originally, as I was under the impression the OP was a big guy. And for others not be discouraged because that even I with alot of squatting experience, flexibly etc.. I've found some limitations thus far to as you say replicating a life-long squatting Asian. Time will tell.
Paleo Donk:
I'm touched that you spent time calculating my inseam/torso ratio, no one has ever done that before.
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I stumbled upon something pretty interesting yesterday that helped me squat pain-free and with great ease for about 5-10 minutes, which was very significant for me because normally it's quite difficult to even squat down and balance in a full asian-squat and I do deep weighted olympic squats all the time. I was at a music festival and was watching from a hill with a fairly steep decline (perhaps at least 30 degrees from the horizon) and when I was tired of standing I just squatted, almost naturally without really thinking about it (probably because I have been practicing a bit here and there) and was able to perfectly balance myself with no trouble at all and was very comfortable and had no noticeable annoyances anywhere in my body. This lasted for 5-10 minutes when my ankles and feet started to fall asleep but I was really excited that I could actually squat with just a change in one variable.
I concluded that the decline shortened the length that my calf muscle had to stretch since my toes are pointed down and heels raised (perhaps one of the reasons why olympic lifters use shoes with a significant heel elevation). Lex mentioned this in the second post of this thread and it seems to be true in my case. Perhaps you can experiment with a decline and see if your calf muscles need to be stretched.
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I was being somewhat critical of that earlier when taking about basketball players and such. Although It was the factor I've thought of if anything that will do the most good but am still skeptical. The suspicion I have is, if I slightly raise my heels, the posture becomes similar to the African man PP posted most recently. the top of the thigh becomes more horizontal instead of the vertical problem I have with having my feet fully flat. Just a few centimeters seem to make a huge difference, so it is possible if the calves were slightly longer they might help but only if I could stretch forward more. I dunno, its not like my calves are that developed or muscular but they are already pretty stretched out, the exercise I do here, http://www.rawpaleoforum.com/exercisebodybuilding/today%27s-workout/msg37001/#msg37001
(http://www.rawpaleoforum.com/?action=dlattach;topic=2850.0;attach=830;image)
I slam backwards on my calves every time, for years now. In the past week I've started calf raises and a type of crunch that stretches the very bottom of the abdomen on each side. So we shall see. Guess worst cases scenario is more manly calves.
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Has anyone seen a single healthy infant that can't squat, ever? AFAIK, every healthy human being for the past 2.5 million years plus is able to squat as an infant, regardless of how long their legs or torsos are. Yes, it comes easier to folks with short legs and long torsos, like most Asians, but how else other than squatting does one crap in the wild where there are no throne toilets? I was reminded of this by this quote in a podcast:
"Can you do everything a human being should be able to do? ... Can you squat down with your feet together with your heels on the ground, yes, no? If you can't, you're not normal. You don't have full potential. You have the mechanisms and the pre-inklings of plantar fasciitis and torn achilles and knee pain and hip impingement and back... Dude! These are the things that a human has to be able to do to express itself, why can't you do that? It's one or zero. Yes or no."
- Kelly Starrett, strength coach and doctor of physical therapy, http://www.bulletproofexec.com/podcast-43-bulletproof-your-mobility-and-performance-with-kelly-starrett (http://www.bulletproofexec.com/podcast-43-bulletproof-your-mobility-and-performance-with-kelly-starrett)
(http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mcpu4niGoe1rfij9ao1_500.jpg)
Kelly Starrett and students
(http://www.lift.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/mobility.png)
(http://jonty23.files.wordpress.com/2010/05/deep_squat_position_3.jpg)
There's a reason why the squat is widely regarded as one of the best muscle-building exercises--it's one of the most fundamental human movements.
And let's not forget horse stance aka combat stance, which Kelly is also big on:
(http://www.shaolin.org/images-3/general-5/horse-stance04.jpg)
(http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lk6097TWTD1qe0d2xo1_400.jpg)
And don't fek with this kid:
(http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcR1Izmnx7uCt_cr6JsxvwjFYaiVr_O8FJPTsSvyWq31kZ2ME5GM&t=1)
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i think you should loosen your calf and ankle muscles/tendons by stretching. eg yoga
one yoga pose that is helpful is called downward dog, and downward dog with leg raise is good too. I would practice these stretches for some time and then try the full squat because it can be unnecessarily painful if you are not flexible enough, as the shins hurt and it's not productive in my opinion since it's not about strength but flexibility.
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I don't think KD's active. I just posted the Kelly Starrett stuff in case anyone else thinks that they will never be able to squat.
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Gray Cook of Functional Movement Systems reports that he is able to help clients that tell him that they can't squat because their legs are too long: http://www.movnat.com/movnation-podcast-powered-by-movnat-episode-6/ (http://www.movnat.com/movnation-podcast-powered-by-movnat-episode-6/)
"At one point in your life, you could squat" - Gray Cook (in other words, EVERY healthy child is able to squat, regardless of their leg length--squatting is a natural human movement for all until modern lifestyle interferes)
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i think you should loosen your calf and ankle muscles/tendons by stretching. eg yoga
one yoga pose that is helpful is called downward dog, and downward dog with leg raise is good too. I would practice these stretches for some time and then try the full squat because it can be unnecessarily painful if you are not flexible enough, as the shins hurt and it's not productive in my opinion since it's not about strength but flexibility.
yoga absolutely helps. another good one is happy baby, or really any hip opening stretch, there are also many more that are great for hamstring...it very beneficial to be flexible