Paleo Diet: Raw Paleo Diet and Lifestyle Forum
Raw Paleo Diet to Suit You => Carnivorous / Zero Carb Approach => Topic started by: Realist on July 25, 2008, 04:20:01 pm
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Couple of questions about the Carnivore diet:
Q1 How much water do you drink or do you metabolize it from fat?
Q2 How many of you eat adrenal glands? I remember from the warrior diet Ori said they were a good source of vitamin C, but I think I've also heard they can cause similar effects to Coffee, i.e., overburden, ultimately burst one's own adrenal glands?
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I'm not a zero-carber(though I've had some unsuccessful attempts/trials with it). During my zero-carb trials, though, I did notice that my need for water GREATLY increased.
As regards consumption of raw adrenals, I should mention that the Native Americans used to treat the adrenals as their favourite food, according to Weston-Price. Also, I take raw adrenal supplements every day(c. quarter-ounce=a day), with no negative effects whatsoever(been doing so for several months now). My own view is that like cures like, so it's important to emulate our ancestors.
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Re adrenals:- Raw adrenal glandulars are almost always recommended for repairing one's adrenals after they've been wrcked by stress etc. On the other hand, it's well-known that taking in artificial hormones via tablets(whether cortisol which is normally produced by the adrenals or some other hormone) tends to weaken the relevant gland in your body - however, as long as you're eating a proper food such as the whole organ or gland and not eating a synthetic version of the hormones from that gland, then you should be fine.
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During my zero-carb trials, though, I did notice that my need for water GREATLY increased.
Completely opposite what I expected, I'm really surprised. Was your meat free of nitrites?
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Yes, grassfed organic meat without nitrites, all raw(except for one very foolish experiment, during one trial, with cooked suet). I just felt dehydrated no matter how much mineral-water I drank - I also experienced a massive drop in appetite.
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I will post this in this thread because it's yet again the thought that keeps on coming up and I am shore that it is worth all of you to think about!
It's from the active low carb forum:
About the pooping issue - I totally disagree that there isn't much stuff in the intestines to get out. When I remembered to take my magnesium I shat a LOT, and that was without plant material. I mean not water but solids. It just stays in there.
I would not like to believe that we are full of ... ; should we all be taking magnesium?
If so what kind of magnesium (I thought a healthy diet should not need supplements!)?
Nicola
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Nicola, a common suggestion as to how to figure out how much magnesium one should take is to find the dose that causes the intestines to put out or increase their peristalsis, and back down from there. But it looks like you are suggesting that you could keep on pooping solid poops if you didn't back off or forget to take your magnesium. MY guess is that you'd find like I did that after a very short while your intestines would be empty and the solid would go to a more fluid consistency. I think if we ate the whole animal like earlier paleo did, we'd find those sources of magnesium that that particular animal stored away. I think you disagree with the premise that bones were eaten regularly, and once again I mention the smaller animals probably included in paleo's diet, as well as blood and the magnesium in it that is carried to those parts of body requiring high concentrations. I find I do better with a magnesium supplement. I use ionic Great Salt Lake solutions that are high in Mg.
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Thanks Van - so it's "ionic Great Salt Lake solution" I wonder what to look for in Switzerland; most products you get are difficult for me to get in Switzerland or Germany.
Is it this product?
http://www.medwed-werner.de/ocean-gold/
I was told to drink water with a little rock salt and not see salt.
Any help is good help I hope.
Nicola
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About the pooping issue - I totally disagree that there isn't much stuff in the intestines to get out. When I remembered to take my magnesium I shat a LOT, and that was without plant material. I mean not water but solids. It just stays in there.
I concur with that person, when i got off cooked-ZC and ate some plant/grains, i remember pooping the next day like i had never pooped before, it was all solid. I estimate i pooped 2-3 weeks worth of waste in 2 days. I was definitely very constipated on cooked-ZC. Iirc, some people on the ZIOH forum have 1 bowel movement a week and Cult Leader Charles and sidekick Suzanne say it's normal but my experience tell me it's not.
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I concur with that person, when i got off cooked-ZC and ate some plant/grains, i remember pooping the next day like i had never pooped before, it was all solid. I estimate i pooped 2-3 weeks worth of waste in 2 days. I was definitely very constipated on cooked-ZC. Iirc, some people on the ZIOH forum have 1 bowel movement a week and Cult Leader Charles and sidekick Suzanne say it's normal but my experience tell me it's not.
Why the hell don't people bring this up? Why do I have to play the nut on this bord and on the others? Charles just tells me to -X and I think it's no better on this bord in a way.
I don't believe that raw meat is any better - so people speek up!
Nicola
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I don't believe that raw meat is any better - so people speek up!
Why would you think that? I've read most of the messages here and on the yahoo forum and i don't recall anyone saying they had constipation problems, it's not that they didn't speak up, there's just no problems to be had. On the ZIOH forum, people did speak up but much like everything else discussed there, it was downplayed because it's obviously impossible to have any issues on cooked-ZC if you're following the Parables of Charles.
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1 BM a week is insane!
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1 BM a week is insane!
I don't know what is more insane, my 1-2 BM/week on CZC or my 3-6 BM/a day on 811. I've experienced both extremes of the spectrum. Also, my stools were tiny on CZC, the size of fingers. On 811, they were HUGEEE.
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Nicola, the one you listed is a very similar type product. I would try it myself.
Maybe you can create a poll of how often and how much we all poop, heh, maybe pictures too. I am sure Tyler would love that. But seriously, I don't think that cooked is the same as raw. For the record, I go everyday. There's just not that much to poop out. meat and fat are highly digested, and the absence of carbs leave little bacteria, which for carb eaters is the majority of the content of the stool.
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I don't know what is more insane, my 1-2 BM/week on CZC or my 3-6 BM/a day on 811. I've experienced both extremes of the spectrum. Also, my stools were tiny on CZC, the size of fingers. On 811, they were HUGEEE.
Toilet-choking fruitarian BMs. LOL I've been there, my friend.
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... I think if we ate the whole animal like earlier paleo did, we'd find those sources of magnesium that that particular animal stored away. I think you disagree with the premise that bones were eaten regularly, and once again I mention the smaller animals probably included in paleo's diet, as well as blood and the magnesium in it that is carried to those parts of body requiring high concentrations. I find I do better with a magnesium supplement. I use ionic Great Salt Lake solutions that are high in Mg.
Does anyone know if any of the organs are high in Mg and much more so than calcium? Bones tend to be much higher in calcium than Mg.
I thought Nicola's GI issue was loose stools, rather than constipation? Since Mg loosens, that wouldn't be a good choice in that case.
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I concur with that person, when i got off cooked-ZC and ate some plant/grains, i remember pooping the next day like i had never pooped before, it was all solid. I estimate i pooped 2-3 weeks worth of waste in 2 days. I was definitely very constipated on cooked-ZC. Iirc, some people on the ZIOH forum have 1 bowel movement a week and Cult Leader Charles and sidekick Suzanne say it's normal but my experience tell me it's not.
First, why did you eat plant/grains? Do they make you feel any better - I would rather have meat and fat in my system than posting down plants/grains!
Second...I don't know what your story is but just reading it caused me to ask and trust a person doing zerocarb (cooked) who has children and animals and this sounds much more acceptable for me:
Well I do not know about once a week... maybe in some extreme cases but it is probably not all the time. I think it is more normal for one to go every 2-4 days.
Now what I think, (and this is only what I think)... is that when people are pooping more solids and volume, that might mean that whatever it is that they added, is making the intestines push more of the food through without being absorbed. When there is LESS volume and less frequency, it is because the intestines are not under stress and is getting every last little bit of nutrition out of the food as possible, therefore leaving less to come out the other end.
My hubby used to go once every 7-10 days when he was eating carbs. He was miserable and bloated and when he did poop it was massive amounts, almost always plugging the toilet and it was very uncomfortable. Now that he has eliminated the carbs, he goes every 2-4 days and it is soft (not runny), never plugs the toilet and he is done in a few seconds. He used to spend up to 30 minutes on the toilet...
He is no longer bloated or uncomfortable, so I would think that if someone had 2-3 weeks of food built up in their intestines they would most certainly know.
So I personally think that this is a load of shit what people are saying that there is food sitting in their intestines. And if they eat or add something that makes them poop MORE, then they are only doing damage to themselves because they are doing something that is making the food NOT be absorbed, therefore making it look like they are pooping out more stuff.
I can compare this to my dog and 2 cats. When they were eating crappy food full of grains and such, there poops were HUGE and stinky and there was so much volume I though I had a cow in my backyard and not a dog. Since I switched him to raw meat 8 years ago and my cats to zero carbs, his poops are small and compact and do not smell, and same with my cats. I could leave their litter box in the kitchen and never know if there was poop in it.. it is so tiny and totally odorless. So if I fed them something that made them poop more often and in bigger volume, I would be worried that they were not getting everything they needed from their food.
I hope this makes senses.. these are only my own observations. I personally do not think that huge volumes of poop mean anything good. I also do not think that solid poop mean anything good either.... they should be soft and pass easily and be no bigger than say your thumb around. This is according to the 'bristol chart' if you google it.
I also think that runny poop all the time means someone is eating too much fat and that is how their body gets rid of it. I get the runs if I overdo fat.
Different views on zerocarb...and still, all I have is hope and trust
Nicola
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I thought Nicola's GI issue was loose stools, rather than constipation? Since Mg loosens, that wouldn't be a good choice in that case.
Look, I don't even know if I have a problem - all I know is that people can be extremely missleading which makes me think I'm not normal (what ever that may be).
I just notice that all kind of things affect my system and I tend to go by those that have a sensitive system and mind...I don't like to add too much - the more you add the more confusion. The body can only deal with "that" much water and drinking more does not help!
Van, PaleoPhil and Willam are good voices for me to listen to - calm and affective. Thank you!
Nicola
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Frequency is all based on how much you eat. If I eat little I'll go less. When I fast, I don't go at all. Go figure. Right now I'm eating 4-5lbs. of food/day. I go at LEAST once a day.
Since we're on the subject of BM, as you know my blood pressure is still somewhat high from my little experiment from last month. I got constipated the other day and my blood pressure was so high that it was a struggle to push. Instead of getting a stroke or an aneurysm or working on a big ass hemorrhoid, I just helped my anus out with my finger. First time in my life I tried that, it was a such a relief from pushing. It took about a day to get rid of the smell on my finger though.
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Frequency is all based on how much you eat. If I eat little I'll go less. When I fast, I don't go at all. Go figure. Right now I'm eating 4-5lbs. of food/day. I go at LEAST once a day.
Since we're on the subject of BM, as you know my blood pressure is still somewhat high from my little experiment from last month. I got constipated the other day and my blood pressure was so high that it was a struggle to push. Instead of getting a stroke or an aneurysm or working on a big ass hemorrhoid, I just helped my anus out with my finger. First time in my life I tried that, it was a such a relief from pushing. It took about a day to get rid of the smell on my finger though.
lol you´re so wonderfully weird.
You should take your advice though and listen to your body. When the body is run by the mind and your ego you´ll make all sorts of mistakes.
What I´m basically saying is, eat when hungry, stop when not hungry anymore. Don´t force feed your self to fulfill some stupid future goal. It will only cause you harm
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Lawd God folks! Need we be so graphic? We don't want to drive the poor newbies away. I've a mind to edit some bits out, but I'm new to moderating and it's not meant to be trollish, so will let it ride (but I'll be happy to clean it up a touch if GS wants me to :D ).
.... Van, PaleoPhil and Willam are good voices for me to listen to - calm and affective. Thank you!
Nicola
Thanks m'dear. I enjoy your and Van's ... posts too.
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I started low carb diet for about a month now it is quite effective for me in losing weight I lose about 4 lbs in one month, so happy with the result.
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As far as the pooping goes, I noticed when I ate a more zero/low carb diet with mostly meat and eggs, even when they were cooked or raw, and even with a little fruit I didnt have a bowel movement at all. Then I ate a bunch of bean sprouts and had a bm in like 30 minutes, so I don't know what that was about. and the bm was soft and decently easy to pass, though not small. Another time I ate a bunch of fruit all at once and had a BM soonish afterwards. More recently I've been eating rather erratic, I went about a week eating mostly fruit and egg yolks, with only a little meat and fat thrown in, and I had BMs more frequently like that. those were soft and easy to pass.. sometimes even liquidy. however I did have a couple days that I ate SAD, eating pizza and frozen tv dinners, and I noticed after those days I tended to have smaller, harder stools that weren't as easy to pass. Right now though I've gone back to a more zero/low carb, eating mostly meat, fat, and eggs, though I'm hoping to add liver to my daily diet as well. I have not yet ever tried liver though, I don't know if I will even like it. But I've only just started back like this, so I don't know how my BMs are going to be like, but it seems like I don't have bms frequently when eating low/zero carb, raw or not. I also seem to have BMs whenever I consume large amounts of fiber, such as when eating a bunch of bean sprouts or eating a large amount of fruit, but small amounts of fruit don't seem to cause them.
I just figured I had some sort of super digestion that allowed me to completely absorb all the meat and eggs I was eating, whereas the only thing which wasn't absorbed was the fiber from veggies and fruit, lol, but I have no idea what's going on. I'm pretty sure when I first started, I went more than a week without a bowel movement.
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Pre paleo I was eatting allot of vegtable fodder salads, potatoes, squash and I had a daily BM, that was often full of undigested vegtable matter, Its as If my bowls were trying to get rid of the stuff before I could digest It(I had real issues with liver congestion and poor digestion)
Once starting low carb raw paleo My digestion improved right away I began to start having the darkest most well formed stools I ever remember having. When I was living off vegtables and olive oil, the stools would be light colored with the oil coming out undigested, But once I switched to 70% calories from raw fat I had no issues with fat digestion. I became fairly regular on my current diet which only plant matterial consist of my Coconut butter which has 5 grams of fiber per serving, I believe coconut butter has the right type of fiber for my mostly meat and fat diet and it acts as an ultra mild laxative that prevents the constipation experienced by some ZCers. I have one decent sized BM every two days and most importantly its well formed and completely digested.
I believe that people will metabolize most of the fat on ZC and that meat bulk will be greatly reduced by digestion so It seems reasonable that low carbers that don't eat plant fiber may have infrequent BMs and periods of constipation. I would also say that I am a believer in High meat for improved meat digestion, and when I first started using High Meat I would drink a couple of raw eggs with it and It would trigger a BM within a couple of hours. It seems the laxative effect wore off after taking it regularly, but I still have no problems with constipation and Have BMs every two days.(just my experience)
During the summer I often sweat buckets and have to drink over a gallon a day, I believe I sweat out a lot of minerals because I often get leg cramps, my hair mineral analysis showed that I had a number of toxic levels of metals as well as mineral imbalances, my potassium was off the chart, but my magnesium was really low as well as low selenium, anyway I tired supplements, but I now think they are all laced with garbage and cause more problems than they are Worth, but the magnesium issue is often hard to fix by diet alone especially with me working construction in the hot summer and sweating profusely. Anyway I have some liquid magnesium chloride I take with some lemon water after I have sweated all day and it seems to help.
I was curious about corral calcium for balancing minerals it has magnesium and other trace elements, does anyone know if its a Good quasi paleo option. As of right now the magnesium is the only supplament I take, I just wonder If there are any paleo recommendations to restore electrolytes after working in extreme conditions, I drink lemon water and eat raw eggs and bone marrow, I wonder if its enough
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My local market didn't have coconut butter, so I ordered some.
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I should also mention that during the times I never had a bowel movement, I also didn't feel like having one either.. I don't know if that is considered constipation, but I don't consider it constipation. To me, constipation is when you feel like you have to go but you can't. Everytime I actually felt like I had to go, I had no problem with my BMs except for the times I ate non-raw took a little extra effort.
Also, I noticed I would see certian things come out, such as reddish stools after eating watermelon, or grape skins after eating grapes, however, following sequential eating and the fact that everything should come out in the same order in which they were eaten, sometimes I never really saw the meat parts ever come out, so that also leads me to believe the meat is either fully or mostly digested. Or I could possibly have just not been able to tell which parts of my stool were meat parts. -\
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I should also mention that during the times I never had a bowel movement, I also didn't feel like having one either.. I don't know if that is considered constipation, but I don't consider it constipation. ...
The Bristol stool scale (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bristol_Stool_Scale) seems to be widely accepted as a standard for determining what constipation is. BM frequency and sensations are too variable and vague to use as a standard that we can all understand.
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Hay phil let me know how that coconut butter is, I am curious about what other raw fooders think about it .
My wife eats eat by the spoon(and she is very picky, my kids eat it, my 2 year old uses it as a dipping sauce for meat, Its a paleo dessert. But I don't know anyone else {besides marks daily apple} who raves about it as I do
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What's your opinion on Mark's comment that coconut butter is "addictive"?
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I totally agree with mark so be warned, but at least its a positive addiction, just like I am addicted now to raw animal foods, but its a beneficial addiction. Like I said I use it as a dipping sauce for my meats and also dip fat trimmings in it. I go a couple of days without it every now and then, but then I get such a strong craving I pig out on about 2 tablespoons with a pound of beef and a little fat trimming and I feel great, no shame like with other vices. It may be that somewhere subconsciously it takes the place of dairy biased creamy desserts, It has a cream like quality that euphoric in itself
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The Bristol stool scale (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bristol_Stool_Scale) seems to be widely accepted as a standard for determining what constipation is. BM frequency and sensations are too variable and vague to use as a standard that we can all understand.
Yeah, but the thing is sometimes I've had closer to type 1 stools that were fairly easy to pass, at least only with a little extra effort than usual, (and I usually only got them recently after eating non-raw foods) whereas I have had times with type 2 or 3 stools that were nearly impossible to pass, and took tremendous effort to pass (usually infrequently though, and only before I started raw) which, I think, means I was more constipated then.