Paleo Diet: Raw Paleo Diet and Lifestyle Forum
Other Raw-Animal-Food Diets (eg:- Primal Diet/Raw Version of Weston-Price Diet etc.) => Primal Diet => Topic started by: goodsamaritan on July 05, 2010, 03:35:23 pm
-
For those who have a lot of experience:
Is high meat more effective than probiotic supplements?
Of course there are many probiotic supplements, name your brands.
-
I don't really think there is a straight answer. But from a paleo perspective high meat seems like one of natures probiotics.
-
Well... Wouldn't rotten meat give you the bacteria which like meat, rotten bread give you the bacteria which like bread, rotten milk give you the bacteria which like milk etc...?
-
from my experience probiotic supplements do not do anything. but if you remember raw rob?.. he used swore by a specific brand that helped him.
anyway, haven't tried high meat yet, but aged is perfect for me!! and i knew it within a day. probiotics never seemed to do anything. maybe it was a time thing??
-
Primal defence I think, my bro had good results with this stuff. Threelac is pretty good too. Both contain Fecal bacteria or something!
-
It might depend on what kind of diet one is on.
I tried threelac fairly recently when I was transitioning back to RAF. I seemed to experience some relief in symptoms but it could easily be the other lifestyle stuff and removing problematic factors.
It was mentioned to me that these kind of probiotics - if they are even vital - are meant for breaking down plant based foods and I stopped taking them as soon as I stopped all non-raw foods again.
similarly though, my experience with high meats, I've undergone positive changes but never anything immediately noticeable from ingestion, but I highly suspect they have played a role in recovery. And have had some pretty crazy expulsions of non-food matter that have left me feeling much better and much more calm if not 'high'.
I eat it fairly regularly, the few 'marble size' chunks every few days when I air it out. I have some 112 days old and pretty gnarly. I've gone through a few other batches. I have another one about 7 weeks now which is plenty intense and preferable to the liquid mess of the other :)
on Bee Wilder's candida site and a few others they make alot of claims against probiotics and threelac specifically. for one, there is actually some kind of yeast and milk sugar in the product supposedly to feed the bacteria in transport (as well as artificial flavor), but the expiration date is one year un-refridgerated..so I don't see what they are eating after this source is absent or how they are still even alive. I know an old school health guy that won a bet by swallowing an entire canister of acidophilus to prove it did nothing. I don't know how accurate that is of a test, but worth noting. I think in the end that certain bacteria are clearly more suited to different things. I was under the impression that threeac was designed to specifically eat up candida fungus, but a low carb raw diet, with high-meat bacteria, should give the best results in creating an overall balance. Unfortunately its clear there are no quick fixes with this stuff, but I feel at least with myself I'm able to handle small amounts of in season fruits (<.5lb) without very uncomfortable symptoms, except a little fatigue/blood sugar stuff.
Even with the high-meats, I would probably take an additional product if someone on RAF had positive experiences.
-
I tried probiotics they were totally useless(but then the ones I took were dairy-linked I think?). High meat worked fine though.
-
Same here. I've tried milk based probiotic in a jar recommended by an acupuncturist and a Russian pharmacist and a colon therapist. It didn't do anything. I found that mentally aggravating, a waste. At least the acupuncturist was good at acupuncture and the pharmacist also sold Amish chicken and organic fruit.
I've made vegan probiotics (sprout and vege based) and honey probiotics. They were good, so much better than none, but lacking a good bit compared to meat probiotics I make now. Meat based probiotics are easier to make than plant based ones, and help my health so much more. Milk based ones are also easier to make than plant ones, but meat gives more (good) effect.
-
I have found high raw meat to do exactly what Aajonus says it will in his We Want To Live book. I was constipated almost all of my life before that. That is where I get my probiotics. We spoke with a probiotic supplement maker in Florida (Winston K...) who says he recommends Aajonus' approach first and his supplements for those who would prefer a supplement instead of the Primal Diet. He may have been schmoozing me a bit but I believed him at the time.
-
I have found high raw meat to do exactly what Aajonus says it will in his We Want To Live book. I was constipated almost all of my life before that. That is where I get my probiotics.
That's what I meant about me making my own meat based probiotic. Highmeat! It works so well and fast. I'm going to air some out tonight that's in my fridge in mason jars, and eat some of it in the morning.
-
I have tried several brands of probiotics, both dairy and nondairy. None of them did anything noticeable for me. Some had warnings about not taking too many of them at once, which gave me the idea to take a lot, out of frustration. Still zero effect. I did one final test by searching the Internet to find the brand that was supposed to be the best, per a study and testimonials. I took the prescribed amount for several days, again without effect, and then took the entire rest of the bottle at once. Still zero effect. So, unsuprisingly, I'm skeptical of probiotics, which have been ineffective and expensive for me. (And it's not that I don't believe some supplements can help some people--minerals have worked wonders for me re: toe cramps, acne and leukonychia, and minerals tend to be relatively cheap).
On the other hand, high meat hasn't had any noticeable effect either, though I haven't taken nearly as much at once.
-
This stuff is definitely more effective than probiotics, it burns my throat after I eat it, the slimy stuff tastes ok, but the dried parts with white/black "mold"? on them tastes better than aged fish and cheese.
(http://img18.imageshack.us/img18/1976/pict0011li.jpg)
-
Does anyone know which specific species of bacteria that fermented meats provide and which ones survive to make it to the intestines?
-
I have tried several brands of probiotics, both dairy and nondairy. None of them did anything noticeable for me. Some had warnings about not taking too many of them at once, which gave me the idea to take a lot, out of frustration. Still zero effect. I did one final test by searching the Internet to find the brand that was supposed to be the best, per a study and testimonials. I took the prescribed amount for several days, again without effect, and then took the entire rest of the bottle at once. Still zero effect. So, unsuprisingly, I'm skeptical of probiotics, which have been ineffective and expensive for me. (And it's not that I don't believe some supplements can help some people--minerals have worked wonders for me re: toe cramps, acne and leukonychia, and minerals tend to be relatively cheap).
On the other hand, high meat hasn't had any noticeable effect either, though I haven't taken nearly as much at once.
which probiotics did you try? Did u try VSL#3?
-
Personally I find high meat very effective in two ways. First I feel good after eating it and am enthusiastic about the day I am living. The more subtle benefit is restoring my regularity. I have been constipated most of my life and didn't know any different until I ran across high meat.
I don't mention this much unless asked because people who want to find something wrong with the Primal Diet use this 'shocking factor' of high meat as a way to discredit the whole diet.
-
How did you guys manage to conjure up the courage to try high meat the first time? I know that it is much easier after the first ordeal, but how do you get around that initial mental block?
-
How did you guys manage to conjure up the courage to try high meat the first time? I know that it is much easier after the first ordeal, but how do you get around that initial mental block?
I first cut the high-meat into tiny slivers before even storing it. I would then chase each tiny sliver down with a gulp of alkaline mineral water from a spring. That washed away the taste. It also helped a great deal, psychologically, that I had consumed a lot of raw, aged cheeses well before I had ever heard of RVAF diets.
-
I first cut the high-meat into tiny slivers before even storing it. I would then chase each tiny sliver down with a gulp of alkaline mineral water from a spring. That washed away the taste. It also helped a great deal, psychologically, that I had consumed a lot of raw, aged cheeses well before I had ever heard of RVAF diets.
Do you recommend i start trying smelly aged cheese's to prepare for it.
-
Do you recommend i start trying smelly aged cheese's to prepare for it.
Only if you have no issues with raw dairy at all. Better to try the other method, otherwise.
-
How did you guys manage to conjure up the courage to try high meat the first time? I know that it is much easier after the first ordeal, but how do you get around that initial mental block?
You could try eating aged meat. Like this http://www.rawpaleoforum.com/off-topic/plethora/msg58497/#msg58497
That can get you closer to your goal of eating high meat.
-
I know an old school health guy that won a bet by swallowing an entire canister of acidophilus to prove it did nothing. I don't know how accurate that is of a test, but worth noting.
The reason why most probiotics that contain acidophilus do not seem to be effective is because they are bovine cultures which are not suited for the human liver. Therefore, cheap probiotic supplements have no effect.
Acidophilus is in the breast's milk of a mother which provides a nursing child with a perfectly robust protective fauna in the intestinal tract. It is the loss of this flauna which is the main culprit for aging and death (see the works of James Empringham for a further discussion).
AV advocates high-meat as a way to promote healthy bacteria. Now, the issue is what bacteria are present on high-meat (or bacteria infested meat)? Of course, bacteria is present (it is visible). However, whether this bacteria is specifically Lactobacillus acidophilus or any of the other bacteria that are particularly beneficial to man has not been answered (that is to say I have yet to find such a source which claims such). If in high-meat those bacteria which are particularly beneficial to man are found, then yes, it would be safe to claim that high-meat is just as beneficial if not more beneficial to man as consuming capsules of human friendly (not bovine friendly) probiotics.
A probiotic which I had positive experience with was LB 17 (http://www.osumex.com/csproductlink17.php).
I was finishing a box of capsules as I began my diet of raw meat. Therefore, which I benefited from the most, I do not know.
For acidophilus to be effective Empringham states that "acidophilus must have 200,000,000 bacilli in each drop". Also, often acidophilus is diluted with the why of cow's milk (bovine friendly acidophilus) without being marketed as such.
On the correct use of acidophilus according to Empringham in 1940:
In order to permanently drive out enemy proteolytic bacteria from the bowel the culture must be injected into the rectum every day until analysis proves the desired results have been attained and the concentration must not be less than two-hundred million bacilli for every drop. According to our experience a natural permanent, defensive flora of the colon cannot be achieved any other way.
-
Okay, thanks to Raw Kyle in this thread (http://www.jstor.org/pss/3859434), research which examines the bacilli present on "slimy" meat (read rotten meat, or high-meat) was found.
According to this article (http://www.jstor.org/pss/3859434):
SUMMARY.
1. Examination of the "slime" obtained on lean beef stored at temperatures just above zero Centigrade has shown it to be composed chiefly of organisms of the Achromobacter group.
Perhaps storing meat at 98.6 F. (37 C.) would be ideal for growing acidophilus? According to this article (and what I understand about bacteria), if you change the environment (humidity and temperature) you could hypothetically induce the growth of L. acidophilus. The only reason why it would be impossible is if the bacteria itself was not present--that is, L. acidophilus is found in the human body but whether or not it is found naturally outside the body (say, in the air we breathe out) is beyond my knowledge. The bacteria may be more delicate than that so that just breathing on meat at the right in the right environment would prove to be futile.
However, this article specifically addresses meat stored at 0 C. While this article doesn't state whether or not the probiotic L. acidophilus could be grown on high-meat isn't addressed but I believe it's safe to say that high-meat does not contain L. acidophilus but a host of other bacteria that may be beneficial to humans.
-
I don't think acidophilus even SHOULD grow on high meat. I also feel high meat works as the best prebiotic for me so far.
-
most probiotics just upset my stomach, high meat seems to do everything probiotics are supposed to, if not more.
-
Personally I find high meat very effective in two ways. First I feel good after eating it and am enthusiastic about the day I am living. The more subtle benefit is restoring my regularity. I have been constipated most of my life and didn't know any different until I ran across high meat.
I don't mention this much unless asked because people who want to find something wrong with the Primal Diet use this 'shocking factor' of high meat as a way to discredit the whole diet.
-
I wish it was called "eating moldy meat" and not "high meat" which just sounds like a strategy of eating tons of meat to fight depression. For a month I've been eating like a pound a day of meat and have gotten too lean and mean.
Good idea, bad name!
-
Thanks for link for the lb. Looks interesting. This bit of info. I would like to add. When milk cultures are grown, like kefir or yogurts, the closer to body temp the more bacteria will be present, the colder the temp, more yeasts will grow. Many probiotics contain bovine bacteria which won't implant in our intestines. And those that do use human bacteria are mostly grown on lactose or other sugars which if one was to reculture those products, to be successful one would have the best luck using the culturing medium used in the manufacturing process. If someone like myself who doesn't eat dairy and has very few carbs moving through my intestines, I think it would be next to impossible to culture those specific bacteria on a fat and protein growth medium. Also many many probiotics aren't acid resistant to make it through the stomach's acids and the small intestines high ph. to start to grown and take hold in the colon. Many are enteric coated to pass through the stomach to then release.... I suspect low carb eaters have an entirely different specie of bacteria than do carb or especially milk product uses that includes lactose. Years ago when I practically lived on goats milk ( I have goats on green pasture still, but not milking) I bought from a culture company very specific human strains of bacteria. Including the L. Bifidum that we're innocculated at birth with through mother's colostrum and through the birthing process itself. I made quart batches of my own bacteria cultures using many trillions counts of these cultured in whey powder which I grew like yogurt. These types of Bacteria reproduce every ten to twenty minutes, which means after innoculating for ten to twenty hours one can do the math and see that the numbers of live bacteria were astronomical. I then implanted these while floating in a warm tub of water to reduce the stress on my intestines. I did many of these. All the while consuming a half gallon of goat mild a day. I did indeed support a very healthy large population of these specific bacteria growing and living nicely in my colon.
Since then having given up carbs and milk sugars, I doubt many of these bacteria exist and am now a host for a protein fat based bacteria.
I would like to try innoculating meat with the lb product. But still question whether it would thrive or grow on a pure protein substance. Maybe it would do better on liver which has carbs. I did some minor looking on the net to see what meat/sausage producers are using. Mostly well guarded, but understand it's a very specific specie. Hanging meat or airing it in jars I suspect one would end up with what's in the prevailing wind, or what is floating in your kitchen as you air it out. Living on the ocean in Northern Ca. we have lots of tree fungus and mold that thrives in this moist cool envirorment. I always come back to soil based organisms, and probably that's why the lb. seems promising. So after a lot of rambling,,,, who knows.
-
Good probiotics are those which contain human bacteria strains which can tolerate the effects of bile and stomach acids.
I've never tried high meat, and i am sure alot have tried it and witnessed it's many profound benefits, but the impression i get is that high meat is rather loaded with bad bacteria than good one, so it tends to upset the ratio between both good and bad bacteria.
Do animals happen to eat high meat or only raw fresh one?
-
Do animals happen to eat high meat or only raw fresh one?
The most excited I have seen bears (polar and grizzly) has been over rotting whale carcasses. Hell, they roll in the carcass. I'm quite sure they are a tad more sensitive with regards to the types of bacteria growing on the meat.
-
Do animals happen to eat high meat or only raw fresh one?
My dog found a raw piece of an animal yesterday on the grass under the wooden unfinished fence, this meat on bone stinking strongly, covered and 'crawling' or rather squiggling with many small live worms. He ate some and carried it around for a bit. He seemed to enjoy it, even though he had eaten a full meal recently before same morning.
-
My cat eats high meat without any reaction at all. I fed him my high meat before I tried it myself. Had my cat rejected the high meat I don't think i would have eaten it myself.
My cat is 100% on raw meat, organs and fat (and the occasional few drops of raw kefir). When i gave him a piece of slimy high meat he just sniffed it and ate it straight away. No noticeable difference with regular meat.
If i give him something new he has never had before say chicken instead of beef their is a clear testing procedure. First sniff, then lick, then wait a bit. Then take in the mouth and spit out again, wait a bit. Then chew and spit out again, again waiting a while. Then eat a little piece and wait an hour or so. Then and then only he will eat the rest. If anywhere along this testing procedure he notices something wrong he won't touch it again. The fact that he ate the beef high meat straight away after just sniffing it means he doesn't think it's too different from regular beef
-
My cat eats high meat without any reaction at all. I fed him my high meat before I tried it myself. Had my cat rejected the high meat I don't think i would have eaten it myself.
My cat is 100% on raw meat, organs and fat (and the occasional few drops of raw kefir). When i gave him a piece of slimy high meat he just sniffed it and ate it straight away. No noticeable difference with regular meat.
If i give him something new he has never had before say chicken instead of beef their is a clear testing procedure. First sniff, then lick, then wait a bit. Then take in the mouth and spit out again, wait a bit. Then chew and spit out again, again waiting a while. Then eat a little piece and wait an hour or so. Then and then only he will eat the rest. If anywhere along this testing procedure he notices something wrong he won't touch it again. The fact that he ate the beef high meat straight away after just sniffing it means he doesn't think it's too different from regular beef
^How is your cats health? I would think an all meat diet would totally change their demeanor, appearance, and energy. My cat is at least eating "grain-free" catfood which isn't great, but I feed her meat and raw ground turkey whenever possible. The other person who takes care of her, can't really be taught about the raw food world, and instead follows the vet's protocol. My cat won't eat high meat, and will only eat ground turkey. But eating more meat, and less catfood, I notice there's a big difference.
-
^How is your cats health? I would think an all meat diet would totally change their demeanor, appearance, and energy. My cat is at least eating "grain-free" catfood which isn't great, but I feed her meat and raw ground turkey whenever possible. The other person who takes care of her, can't really be taught about the raw food world, and instead follows the vet's protocol. My cat won't eat high meat, and will only eat ground turkey. But eating more meat, and less catfood, I notice there's a big difference.
He's healthy. Its a bengal F3 meaning his grandfather was a Asian Leopard Cat (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leopard_Cat#Subspecies) so he's a bit closer to a natural race than most cats. When i got him he was 8 months old and used to eating dry cat food. it took a few days for him to get used to an all meat diet. In the beginning when i gave him some dry cat food that i got free with the cat he would attack it as if craving it. Now when i give it to him he just ignores it(even when hungry) doesn't see it as food anymore.
He's very active, dominant(towards other cats) and strong. Hunts/jumps anything that moves outside.