Paleo Diet: Raw Paleo Diet and Lifestyle Forum
Raw Paleo Diet Forums => Welcoming Committee => Topic started by: Iron.E on October 26, 2010, 04:22:35 am
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I've been bodybuilding for almost 4 years now and have gone from 150lbs to 200lbs ~6-8%BF
I do a lot of fitness and underwear modeling, but have no plans on ever competing in a BB competition.
I'm quite the longevity enthusiast, maybe even a bit of a zealot.
I truly believe that the Paleo diet is the most scientifically sound and healthy way of eating that we know of.
I don't consider it a fad diet, and I don't think of it as a weight loss diet, although it works well for that.
I've spent countless hours researching fitness, nutrition, supplementation and human biochemistry, and would now like to shift my focus more torwards gaining a solid understanding of this diet.
Sorry for the long intro, glad to be here
Iron.E
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You are aware this is rawpalaeo, not a cooked-palaeo diet?
Anyway, welcome to the forum! Good to hear you are avoiding BB competitions as I have heard horror stories re forced dehydration in order to emphasise muscle-tone etc.
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You are aware this is rawpalaeo, not a cooked-palaeo diet?
Anyway, welcome to the forum! Good to hear you are avoiding BB competitions as I have heard horror stories re forced dehydration in order to emphasise muscle-tone etc.
Ya I'm starting to figure that out as I surf through the forums lol
It's almost like a cult following here... talks of drinking blood and eating raw meat
While I won't argue that its a bad idea to eat that way, I still choose to cook my meat.
And then some vegis like Broccoli are healthier when cooked.
I have to imagine paleolithic human beings were intelligent enough to make fire and figure out how to cook their meat...?
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Good to hear you are avoiding BB competitions as I have heard horror stories re forced dehydration in order to emphasise muscle-tone etc.
I have to use the same techniques for modeling competitions. Basically tons of water and salt for a week with 0 carbs, then drop the water and salt and carb up causing glycogen in the muscle to absorb the subcutaneous water beneath the skin giving you a ripped paper thin skin look. Not healthy, but pays the bills.
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Ya I'm starting to figure that out as I surf through the forums lol
It's almost like a cult following here... talks of drinking blood and eating raw meat
While I won't argue that its a bad idea to eat that way, I still choose to cook my meat.
And then some vegis like Broccoli are healthier when cooked.
I have to imagine paleolithic human beings were intelligent enough to make fire and figure out how to cook their meat...?
Basically, a cooked-palaeolithic diet is fine for now if you are not suffering from ill-health in any real way or if you are still young. However, since levels of heat-created toxins derived from cooking, such as advanced glycation end products, polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons etc. etc. are heavily implicated in age-related illnesses such as Alzheimer`s, atherosclerosis etc. etc. it is a good idea to go rawpalaeo as one passes , say, 35, or so, IMO.
As for cooking, as regards palaeo foods, it in most cases, leads to the lowering of nutrients to a great extent, other than the issue of heat-created toxins caused by cooking. Then there is the issue of the healthy bacteria and enzymes destroyed by cooking. Broccoli is not really very palaeo and I doubt it was a staple in the Palaeolithic, even when cooked.
As for the when cooking was invented, despite the vague unproven opinions of 1 or 2 kooks like Wrangham, the overwhelming evidence shows that cooking as only invented c. 250,000 years ago in the Palaeolithic, which was only the very last 10 percent of the Palaeolithic. Before that, hominids happily ate raw meat diets without issues just like wild animals.
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Basically, a cooked-palaeolithic diet is fine for now if you are not suffering from ill-health in any real way or if you are still young. However, since levels of heat-created toxins derived from cooking, such as advanced glycation end products, polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons etc. etc. are heavily implicated in age-related illnesses such as Alzheimer`s, atherosclerosis etc. etc. it is a good idea to go rawpalaeo as one passes , say, 35, or so, IMO.
As for cooking, as regards palaeo foods, it in most cases, leads to the lowering of nutrients to a great extent, other than the issue of heat-created toxins caused by cooking. Then there is the issue of the healthy bacteria and enzymes destroyed by cooking. Broccoli is not really very palaeo and I doubt it was a staple in the Palaeolithic, even when cooked.
As for the when cooking was invented, despite the vague unproven opinions of 1 or 2 kooks like Wrangham, the overwhelming evidence shows that cooking as only invented c. 250,000 years ago in the Palaeolithic, which was only the very last 10 percent of the Palaeolithic. Before that, hominids happily ate raw meat diets without issues just like wild animals.
You know your craft I'll give you that...
As far as raw goes, I do make a point to undercook my beef... but eating chicken raw just doesn't seem safe. Steaming vegetables seems to have more health benefits then eating them raw. Fruit and nuts I obviously eat raw.
I supplement with both probiotics and digestive enzymes so hopefully these help to displace those lost in the cooking process... or are you going to tell me that since paleo humans didnt have supplements we shouldnt either? ;)
So because Broccoli wasn't a staple for paleo human beings you don't believe it should be for us?
Eating the TYPES of foods our paleolithic ancestors ate VS. ONLY and SPECIFICALLY eating what was eaten by them --- seems like the difference between a healthier way of eating and a fad diet
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raw vegetables generally have their cell walls destroyed by cooking so yield higher levels of nutrients and lower levels of antinutrients which is why rawpalaeos avoid them, mostly. Raw meat and raw fruit providemuch lower levels of nutrients when cooked, however.
Chicken should be avoided anyway even when cooked as most chickens are raised on very unhealthy(often processed) grainfed diets whereas jungle fowl in the wild eat raw omnivorous diets full of worms etc. We do not blindly just suggest eating raw, but also aim for high quality raw foods such as raw grassfed meats or raw wild game.
Supplements are invariably highly processed or just wrong. For example, much of the probiotics are dairy-related and therefore useless re digesting other foods properly.
As for types of foods, the point is that in palaeo times, vegetables were only a very minor part of the diet - certain vegetables which have to be cooked such as potatoes were only really eaten in any quantity after the end of the Palaeolithic era. More to the point, the type of food is irrelevant. For example, raw grainfed meat is unhealthy while raw grassfed meat is extremely healthy - same applies re broccoli as it is a useless food when raw and when it is cooked, various heat-created toxins are added as a result of cooking which negates the benefit of the extra nutrients involved. So, it makes better sense to go for raw vegetables which are more easily digested raw.
Indeed, one main cooked-palaeolithic diet dogma is that one should only eat foods which are easily edible when raw.
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Hello and welcome,
What Tyler says is all good and well, but my tip is don't change your diet too drastically. If you intend to change it, make sure you change it over a decent period of time. Makes the transition easier. I say this because you rely on your body for income. Sudden changes may alter your physique (weight changes) etc. So it's best done gradually.
Anyway best of luck
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Daikon, turnip, parsnip, carrot, red cabbage are all delicious when raw and shredded, and are actually less tasty/flavorful when cooked, either that or my taste buds have gone awall after raw diet lol.
Even if the vitamins are increased in veggies after cooking, that doesn't mean they are better absorbed or bio-available, or does it???
Cooking veggies also increases their fiber AND their sugar (which I don't think is a good thing)...
Is brocolli really useless?
It has a very good amount of vitamin C, and relatively NO sugar or calories...that may be useful for someone wanting some extra vitamins from natural source and NOT extra sugar from fruits....just a thought.
The only reason why I am saying this it seems that people here fear raw vegetables? Are there really that many anti-nutrients in them to make their nutrients plus the other things they contain like trace elements, enzymes and antioxidants and relatively less sugar then fruits make them that bad? They also may contain nutrients that we have no clue about yet... Just wondering...
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Well, most RVAFers find raw veg to taste too bland. Raw broccoli is really foul in that regard and has high levels of antinutrients when raw. But the real fear is against raw veggie juice as many claim that juicing not only provides far more nutrients by shredding the cell-walls but that it also increases the bioavailability of the antinutrients as well - and since juicing allows one to consume nutrients and antinutrients from far more veg than would be possible otherwise, it is viewed as a hazard.
Cooking does reduce bioavailability of nutrients a bit as well as introducing heat-created toxins. Of course, most people do not cook veg as harshly as they cook animal foods, which is why fruit and veg are more recommended by dud modern nutritonists.
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Ah I see, yes brocolli is pretty bland...
But some of the veggies I mentioned above are far, far from bland, it some cases they have more taste/flavor then many fruits, a lot of fruits just seem to have more flavor due to their sweetness (and some fruits are overbred/modified to increase sugar which sux), also fresh herbs and certain leafies are full of taste.
I don't juice veggies either as that means I will consume much more veggies then needed, not good or very natural....I do shred them in a food combiner though whenever I eat any...
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Of course, most people do not cook veg as harshly as they cook animal foods, which is why fruit and veg are more recommended by dud modern nutritonists.
You'd be surprised how many people I have seen still fry their veggies into oblivion lol, thats probably almost as bad as overcooking the meat.
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Welcome, its awesome having a body builder here! We are a bit cult-ish but its worth it -d. Don't worry about raw right now try some regular paleo now, you will get plenty of benefits from that as well. I agree with what forthehunt said though, make sure to transition so as not to have any major body changes which shouldn't happen but just incase. Also just out of curiosity what does your routine look like?
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Welcome, Iron.E. The longer folks eat Paleo or carnivore, the more they tend to prefer their food to be cooked less and less. I know several Paleos/carnivores who claimed they would never eat raw meat who later changed their minds.
I used to think things close to what you've written here. While I ate some raw eggs and low-heated beef jerky and tried a little raw meat before I came here, I used to say that I didn't think it was necessary for me to eat raw meat and I wasn't interested. But then I saw how well some of the folks were doing who were eating plenty of meat & fat and mostly raw, and by accident I also noticed that I fared best when I minimized carby plant foods and maximized lightly cooked meats and fats and I decided to give raw carnivore a try. Check out Lex Rooker's journal, which helped motivate me to get going on trying it out.
....Eating the TYPES of foods our paleolithic ancestors ate VS. ONLY and SPECIFICALLY eating what was eaten by them --- seems like the difference between a healthier way of eating and a fad diet
I eat what I do because it works for me (see my signature), not because it was the types of foods of our ancestors or only and specifically what they ate or because it's a fad or not. The evolutionary template/blueprint has served me well as a clue about what to try and as an explanatory model, but the final determiner for me is my own experience.
Years ago I wouldn't have dreamed that what I eat now would turn out to work best. You may end up being surprised to learn what works best for you, if you experiment. The old saying comes into play here: "Don't knock it till you've tried it." You're also free to eat whatever you choose, of course. So "live and let live" is also relevant.
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Sorry for the long intro, glad to be here
Glad to meet you. a physical culturist myself. Looking forward to share tips. If you are a model, I suspect there is a limit to how much mass you want. With raw paleo, no longer will you have to eat foul tasting supplements laced with artificial sweeteners.
*)The results I got on this food before an injury put a momentary stop to my progress was nothing short of incredible. For the first time in a gym, I actually had the thought that I should probably start to cool down on bulking before I turn freakish. This in just 3 months. I can start out slowly in the next week or so, so I will be posting my progress here when I am back on track. If you try out raw, I encourage you to do the same. And...expect to get flu like symptoms for a week or so, if you do the shift.
talks of drinking blood and eating raw meat
;D Just like your phsyical cultures ancestors. Armand Tanny, Vince Gironda, Jack Lalanne (/oh yes, Jack used to eat meat and drink blook together with Tanny), Bill Pearl etc.. All these impressive physiques was carnivorous to the bone. Tanny was raw all the time, Vince most of the time, Jack turned vegetarian again, but while they bulked. Back in the days, raw meat and fat was the stuff.
but eating chicken raw just doesn't seem safe
I have had not problems with raw chicken or eggs. The first week I had a rinse out and flu like symptoms. Went away and theres been nothing since. I dont eat raw chicken though, just tried it. I do not care for the texture. Eggs are great though.* hums the theme from Rocky*
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*)The results I got on this food before an injury put a momentary stop to my progress was nothing short of incredible. For the first time in a gym, I actually had the thought that I should probably start to cool down on bulking before I turn freakish. This in just 3 months. I can start out slowly in the next week or so, so I will be posting my progress here when I am back on track. If you try out raw, I encourage you to do the same. And...expect to get flu like symptoms for a week or so, if you do the shift.
What/how much do you eat daily? I have been eating RP for about 6 months now and been consistently powerlifting for the last year and a half or so. My weight actually went from a chubby 190 (maybe 13-14%) to a lean 158. So as you can see I have been noticing anything but the explosive muscle growth some people are talking about. Even at a light 158 I would still be unable to maintain this weight if it was not for eating lots of dairy.
I just find the lack of starch and grains (and overall calories) hard to gain muscle on--so just curious, and am super interested in following your progress.
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I can only echo much of what is already said here. I mean if the forum was about sky diving, it might not be appropriate to question the problem of jumping out of planes randomly. Given the proper understanding, method, and experience, you might have a good time :). certainly not dieing from this stuff is probably a big relief for many at first.
on the negative, unfortunately there is not alot of proof (other than some of the science ironically) that the types of approaches discussed here will get you better results in your field, but hopefully they will indeed make you healthier long term. There are some past pioneers, but largely its about undergoing your own unknown investigation.
I've been bodybuilding for almost 4 years now and have gone from 150lbs to 200lbs ~6-8%BF
I do a lot of fitness and underwear modeling, but have no plans on ever competing in a BB competition.
I'm quite the longevity enthusiast, maybe even a bit of a zealot.
I truly believe that the Paleo diet is the most scientifically sound and healthy way of eating that we know of.
I don't consider it a fad diet, and I don't think of it as a weight loss diet, although it works well for that.
I've spent countless hours researching fitness, nutrition, supplementation and human biochemistry, and would now like to shift my focus more torwards gaining a solid understanding of this diet.
Perhaps there is some way to group those goals with RPD, or
not trying to brush you off, but here are sites you might also find helpful or conducive to them.
http://www.marksdailyapple.com/
http://cavemanforum.com/
http://forum.dirtycarnivore.com/
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Well, one thing re rawpalaeodiets I have noticed is that they help lose weight much better than other diets and help build muscle quicker(though only with exercise of course).
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What/how much do you eat daily? I have been eating RP for about 6 months now and been consistently powerlifting (*) for the last year and a half or so. My weight actually went from a chubby 190 (maybe 13-14%) to a lean 158. So as you can see I have been noticing anything but the explosive muscle growth some people are talking about. Even at a light 158 I would still be unable to maintain this weight if it was not for eating lots of dairy.
I just find the lack of starch and grains (and overall calories) hard to gain muscle on--so just curious, and am super interested in following your progress.
I eat a lot when I train for mass. 10-15 eggs. 1-2kg of beef, 2-8 pints of raw milk, or 2-400g cheese (the reason I have a range on them is because i tend to make variation on how much I eat per day from each. All depending on mood that day). I add in raw liver for a week every month. Plenty of water throughout the day. I eat vegetable fats like avocado and coconut for snack. Never together with the meat tough because they require different environments to break down properly. Add in Fish oil.
(*)Unless powerlifting is slang where you live for bodybuilding, then you are doing it wrong. If what you want to achieve is more mass, then you should train for more mass. It is a common misunderstanding that strengh and muscle size correlate by default and thus if you just lift harder you will get bigger. You will certainly get stronger, but if that is not your goal.
Take a look at these articles for some good pointers.
http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/becker25.htm
http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/becker26.htm
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on the negative, unfortunately there is not alot of proof (other than some of the science ironically) that the types of approaches discussed here will get you better results in your field
...bro
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_rw_U1LlrOFE/TDsdiBuo-FI/AAAAAAAAILI/N5mRKGm7X9Q/s1600/Armand-Tanny-4.jpg)
http://www.davedraper.com/fusionbb/showtopic.php?tid/20591/
(comment on the article: "These dangerous raw foods didn't appear to harm him...he passed away at 90.") lulz...
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Hi Iron,
I look at longevity too and am gunning for 120 years old and above.
Aajonus Vonderplanitz thinks that people are not fully adapted to cooking.
This is why people are allergic to cooked meats, allergic to cooked vegetables, allergic to cooked fruit.
Funny how recently i just came across Aajonus' old writings that some people are indeed allergic to cooked green vegetables.
Got me thinking how my son got tuberculosis.
As for raw chicken, I don't like the taste of raw chicken.
But RawZi likes raw chicken.
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Brother- glad you took the time out for a reply. Looks like we eat similar amounts but you know, maybe you are right about the powerlifting/bodybuilding thing--maybe is because I have just been training low volume. With all this talk lately about "get stronger to get bigger" (it's the new thing) I guess its possible I have taken it too literally.
Have you followed the 10x10 routine with success?
edit: I also did not realize some of these old-time bodybuilders ate raw animal products--interesting!
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I think it would be a good idea to do a piece on RVAF diet bodybuilders on rawpaleodiet.com. Randy Roach's article would be ideal, but anyone with more info would be welcome:-
http://www.westonaprice.org/mens-health/252-splendid-specimens.html
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Armand Tanny is definitely a RVAF diet inspiration. I would have loved to have got his autograph or somethiong before he died at the ripe age of 90.
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get stronger to get bigger (it's the new thing)
It was a heated issue allready back with Tanny and those guys. Personally I think Vince Gironda had it more or less nailed down. Everybody he touched turned into pure gold. I have tried all kinds of mixes of reps, HIT, Teared pulls...I think it comes down to you personally. You need to find out what works the best for you.
Have you followed the 10x10 routine with success?
I read that as "ten sets of ten repetitions". I think that sounds like total overkill. With a very low weight as part of loosing fat, sure, makes sense, but for mass?. No. Pointless at best.
edit: I also did not realize some of these old-time bodybuilders ate raw animal products--interesting!
"Athletes of the 1960s used a variety of recipes, varying the proportions of Blair’s protein product with raw cream, raw milk and raw egg yolk. Weight-trainer Don Howorth remembers eating 3 dozen eggs, 1 quart raw cream, and 2 pounds ground sirloin along with 2-3 cups of Blair’s protein powder per day."
"Gironda often stated that nutrition was 85-90 percent of bodybuilding. His alternative to drugs was eggs. Like Blair, he advocated up to 36 eggs a day for 6 to 8 weeks to produce muscle buildup. (He also took, among many other supplements, "orchic tissue tablets," that is, dried testicles.)
He recommended following this "anabolic phase" with a short-term vegetarian diet to "re-alkalize" the body. Similarly he alternated a low-carbohydrate diet with periods of carbohydrate loading. He was careful to point out the difference between natural and refined carbohydrate foods"
-Splendid Specimens: The History of Nutrition in Bodybuilding By Randy Roach
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I think it would be a good idea to do a piece on RVAF diet bodybuilders on rawpaleodiet.com. Randy Roach's article would be ideal, but anyone with more info would be welcome:-
http://www.westonaprice.org/mens-health/252-splendid-specimens.html
Well thank you kindly for providing the link ;D
Many of these guys like Tanny were inspirations. They may not have been all 100% raw, but their ideas on nutrition were groundbreaking.
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...bro
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_rw_U1LlrOFE/TDsdiBuo-FI/AAAAAAAAILI/N5mRKGm7X9Q/s1600/Armand-Tanny-4.jpg)
http://www.davedraper.com/fusionbb/showtopic.php?tid/20591/
(comment on the article: "These dangerous raw foods didn't appear to harm him...he passed away at 90.") lulz...
that might be alot of proof within one person, but I was speaking mostly about other people here one might share experiences with, not to mention you can find a bodybuilder/actor/athlete that can rationalize any diet approach, so these do not proooove that something is healthy or safe unfortunately. Finding an excuse as to why some practices are unhealthy despite others success seems to be easy as dehydrated pie for most folks anyway. This much I have learned :)
There are some past pioneers, but largely its about undergoing your own unknown investigation.
:)
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I read that as "ten sets of ten repetitions". I think that sounds like total overkill. With a very low weight as part of loosing fat, sure, makes sense, but for mass?. No. Pointless at best.
yes, in the second link you posted it mentioned a 10x10 workout. There's another 10x10 setup also called "German volume" I hear a lot of people rave about over on bodybuilding.com. I was just wondering if you have ever had any success with that type of routine or if that's sort of what you follow since it was included in the link.
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yes, in the second link you posted it mentioned a 10x10 workout. There's another 10x10 setup also called "German volume" I hear a lot of people rave about over on bodybuilding.com. I was just wondering if you have ever had any success with that type of routine or if that's sort of what you follow since it was included in the link.
I never used such a routine, because I never found it neccesery to load the muscles like that for results. Anything beyond 3x12 and such is just a waste of my time. I sometimes moves between excersizes without any break at all. Would probably qualify as something similar. But to put that much load on a single muscle at a time seems counterproductive. Many bodybuilders think that muscleburn means they had a good workout, so they overdo everything.
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I never used such a routine, because I never found it neccesery to load the muscles like that for results. Anything beyond 3x12 and such is just a waste of my time. I sometimes moves between excersizes without any break at all. Would probably qualify as something similar. But to put that much load on a single muscle at a time seems counterproductive. Many bodybuilders think that muscleburn means they had a good workout, so they overdo everything.
I'm not sure exactly what the intent is with a 10x10 workout but perhaps they step back on intensity a bit and step up the sets to incur greater muscle fatigue. Lots of schools of thought out there as to the best ways to work the muscles.
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I'm not sure exactly what the intent is with a 10x10 workout but perhaps they step back on intensity a bit and step up the sets to incur greater muscle fatigue. Lots of schools of thought out there as to the best ways to work the muscles.
in the Gym, everybody is an expert and everybody has the one size fit all solution that never fails. As I said, I can see it's value in the right context. If Vince said it, he had a good reason I am sure. I did not read the articles, I just did a google search for him, I have a lot of trust in his legacy and ideas. But since you asked for my opinion, I don't fully understand why he would choose so many reps over more volume and less reps (going by the HIT principles). I also have a liking for slow systems. They are frowned upon by many, but I think it is a load of crap because those that actually use them (and doesnt just read about how ineffective they are in articles written by people with competing systems to sell) get good results with a small investment of time. I have the utmost respect for Joshua Trentine. I have never met the guy, but he is a RAF pro bodybuilder and he uses a system called overload. Which I would love to get into, but since he is developing it himself (from what I understand) and it requires special equipment (also self developed) there arent a lot of places where you can try it out besides his own Gym?! =/
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As for raw chicken, I don't like the taste of raw chicken.
But RawZi likes raw chicken.
Only chicken raised on bugs and grass, I don't like it when it's corn/soy fed. Then it tastes reminiscent of wax and rancid to me. I love that pasture grazed or free range, but not raw ceviche "cooked". On PD it's recommended to eat chicken ceviche in the beginning, to get used to raw meat. I get dull aches from the chicken prepared in those PD recipes. I do like raw chicken. To me it tastes like chicken I ate in childhood, especially when I'm eating chicken high-meat. I know the chicken I ate as a kid was not fermented, but I just hadn't eaten chicken in so many years, so maybe my perception is easily deceiving me there.
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Haha that is true everyone's an expert in their own minds. One thing I have learned though (at least in strength training, but I am sure applies to the bodybuilders also) is that there are many, many ways to get the job done. Seems the success stories revolve around consistency and hard work.
You guys should post up some progress logs of some sort (it would be cool to see what other RP dieters are doing)--if there were more lifting orientated logs I might decide to copy and paste mine from another forum.
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Hello and Welcome to this forum.
My tip is not to change your diet too drastically.But If you intend to change it then make sure you change it over a decent period of time. Makes the transition easier. I say this because you rely on your body for income. Sudden changes may alter your physique (weight changes) etc. So it's best done gradually.
Regards,
Ali.
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Seems the success stories revolve around consistency and hard work.
And proper nutrition :D
You guys should post up some progress logs of some sort (it would be cool to see what other RP dieters are doing)--if there were more lifting orientated logs I might decide to copy and paste mine from another forum.
You should do so anyway. It would be interesting to follow the progress of a strengh athlete on this diet.
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Well, one thing re rawpalaeodiets I have noticed is that they help lose weight much better than other diets and help build muscle quicker(though only with exercise of course).
I totally agree with this!
If only the producers of "The Biggest Loser" would know this fact then they would find it easy to manage their over weights. Peace!
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Well, one thing re rawpalaeodiets I have noticed is that they help lose weight much better than other diets and help build muscle quicker(though only with exercise of course).
I'm not really sure I agree with that yet. I had massive trouble gaining muscle mass on RPD. It wasn't until I went primal and started adding loads of dairy into my diet as well as honey till I started gaining any sensible amount of weight again.
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I'm not really sure I agree with that yet. I had massive trouble gaining muscle mass on RPD. It wasn't until I went primal and started adding loads of dairy into my diet as well as honey till I started gaining any sensible amount of weight again.
Well, I agree that the minority here who were underweight pre-RPD diet do seem to have problems re gaining weight on a rawpalaeodiet minus raw dairy, but the others generally find they reach a normal weight and build muscle faster than on a SAD diet, provided they do the usual relevant exercises as before, of course.
Interesting anecdote:- Schwarzenegger in his autobiography said that the canteen food he had in the Austrian Army was so overcooked that he was forced to eat twice as much cooked meat as normal in order to maintain his huge bulk, and then he had to do twice as much exercise in order to get rid of the resulting extra fat.
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Well, I agree that the minority here who were underweight pre-RPD diet do seem to have problems re gaining weight on a rawpalaeodiet minus raw dairy, but the others generally find they reach a normal weight and build muscle faster than on a SAD diet, provided they do the usual relevant exercises as before, of course.
Interesting anecdote:- Schwarzenegger in his autobiography said that the canteen food he had in the Austrian Army was so overcooked that he was forced to eat twice as much cooked meat as normal in order to maintain his huge bulk, and then he had to do twice as much exercise in order to get rid of the resulting extra fat.
That is indeed very interesting. Got a source on that? Would love to read some more.
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That is indeed very interesting. Got a source on that? Would love to read some more.
I cannot remember which page S. wrote that in his autobiography, but it rings true given my own experience.
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I'm not really sure I agree with that yet. I had massive trouble gaining muscle mass on RPD. It wasn't until I went primal and started adding loads of dairy into my diet as well as honey till I started gaining any sensible amount of weight again.
Is it possible you weren't eating enough and the milk just helped get in the calories? Also is your avatar a picture of you?
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Is it possible you weren't eating enough and the milk just helped get in the calories? Also is your avatar a picture of you?
I was eating plenty of calories, in fact I'm pretty sure I was over eating. And yep.
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I was eating plenty of calories, in fact I'm pretty sure I was over eating. And yep.
Thats amazing! Were you even close to as toned and big as you are back when you were on a SAD? What does your routine look like???
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Thats amazing! Were you even close to as toned and big as you are back when you were on a SAD? What does your routine look like???
The picture is taken when I was on cooked. Although granted, very healthy cooked.
My routine varies a lot. Right now lots of HIIT and high intensity crossfitness exercises. (compound lifts and bodyweight training). The lighting in that pic is very generous though, just so you know ;>
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Unless you photoshopped it you can only get a picture make you look better to a certain point. What were your results when you went raw paleo/primal?
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Unless you photoshopped it you can only get a picture make you look better to a certain point. What were your results when you went raw paleo/primal?
Nono, no photoshop.
Uhm, RPD not that great. Had no trouble gaining fat due to eating a loot of fat. Muscle was sort of lagging behind, my guess is that fat isn't protein sparing enough and the carbs from fruit just didn't cut it, although I don't know ^^.
I'm gaining weight pretty fast now on Primal, with timed milkshakes with honey after workouts and then plenty of milk meat and fat. I really like it. I know it's not optimal for bodybuilding but I think it's the closest thing in the paleo spectrum.
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Nono, no photoshop.
Uhm, RPD not that great. Had no trouble gaining fat due to eating a loot of fat. Muscle was sort of lagging behind, my guess is that fat isn't protein sparing enough and the carbs from fruit just didn't cut it, although I don't know ^^.
I'm gaining weight pretty fast now on Primal, with timed milkshakes with honey after workouts and then plenty of milk meat and fat. I really like it. I know it's not optimal for bodybuilding but I think it's the closest thing in the paleo spectrum.
Hmm. Thats rather dissapointing and suprising. I would think its easy to get lean on this diet and then just get your cals up and gain lots of muscle. Did you eat a lot of fruit? I personally believe to gain lots of muscle you need at least 250g of carbs a day.
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Hmm. Thats rather dissapointing and suprising. I would think its easy to get lean on this diet and then just get your cals up and gain lots of muscle. Did you eat a lot of fruit? I personally believe to gain lots of muscle you need at least 250g of carbs a day.
I definitely wasn't eating 250g. Probably more near 100-150g. Although according to the research I've read, the muscle sparing effect of carbs and fat together is similar to if you'd carbs and protein only.
So for example if I ate 100g of carbs and 150g of fat it'd have the same results as 250g of carbs,
I'm not quite sure where I went wrong on the RPD though. Just felt like I couldn't get enough macronutrients in, or they just didn't work very well together. I ate a lot of fat and I just felt really gross, got fat really fast and then I got some ugly eczema on my neck which I've yet to get rid of.
If I had to guess, then I'd say where I went wrong was eating too much fat. The whole thing just never felt right really, fruit although great, just somehow didn't fit into the equation I think. I feel on primal everything fits perfectly together and I feel smashing.
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I definitely wasn't eating 250g. Probably more near 100-150g. Although according to the research I've read, the muscle sparing effect of carbs and fat together is similar to if you'd carbs and protein only.
So for example if I ate 100g of carbs and 150g of fat it'd have the same results as 250g of carbs,
I'm not quite sure where I went wrong on the RPD though. Just felt like I couldn't get enough macronutrients in, or they just didn't work very well together. I ate a lot of fat and I just felt really gross, got fat really fast and then I got some ugly eczema on my neck which I've yet to get rid of.
If I had to guess, then I'd say where I went wrong was eating too much fat. The whole thing just never felt right really, fruit although great, just somehow didn't fit into the equation I think. I feel on primal everything fits perfectly together and I feel smashing.
Well I would always follow results over philosophy any day. Its odd that you got eczema from the paleo diet because mine has disappeared. How much fat were you eating exactly? And I totally agree that mixing any form of fruit and meat just doesn't feel right. I never combine any meat with fruit. If I do eat meat I wait 3-4 hours before eating fruit. I don't know if you want to try a water fast but eczema usually means your body is detoxing something. Have you been tested for allergies? You could also try mono days if your interested. One day only fruits the next only meat, organs and fat. Just an idea. What do you mean by you were missing macro nutrients?
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I know it's not optimal for bodybuilding but I think it's the closest thing in the paleo spectrum.
wot? It is marvelous food. Nice idea with the honey milkshake, consider it stolen. I usually down an egg or two after work out, and some berries before if i am low on energy for some reason. This is a really good idea you got
personally believe to gain lots of muscle you need at least 250g of carbs a day
Based on what exactly? http://www.myspace.com/joshuatrentine <-ZC RAF pro bodybuilder.
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wot? It is marvelous food. Nice idea with the honey milkshake, consider it stolen. I usually down an egg or two after work out, and some berries before if i am low on energy for some reason. This is a really good idea you got
Based on what exactly? http://www.myspace.com/joshuatrentine <-ZC RAF pro bodybuilder.
Yes he looks real good. But would he look a lot bigger on cooked with suppliments? Yes, most definitely.
My point is that with cooked you sacrifice some of your health for size, but with RAF you sacrifize size for health. Which is my personal choice
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Hmm. Thats rather dissapointing and suprising. I would think its easy to get lean on this diet and then just get your cals up and gain lots of muscle. Did you eat a lot of fruit? I personally believe to gain lots of muscle you need at least 250g of carbs a day.
yeah, this seems extremely left field depending on what you mean by lots. I don't think any CW or bodybuilding lore or RPD folks I've ever heard of have mentioned this in any way whatsoever. The people at my CF gym are pretty well built (not bodybuilder but certain far bigger than moi) and I'd say all of them doing largely LC most of the time. Like ForTheHunt, I think there indeed is some kind of change and therefore sacrifice to vanity perhaps in eating all raw particularly in the first few years when your body doesn't give much of shit of that as a priority. From what i've experienced and read, Doing more of the primal thing seems to fix both short-term and long term ability for people to build mass because it speeds along both from that angle.
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Yes he looks real good. But would he look a lot bigger on cooked with suppliments? Yes, most definitely.
My point is that with cooked you sacrifice some of your health for size, but with RAF you sacrifize size for health. Which is my personal choice
Why do guys want size anyway, WTF it does not look attractive AT ALL, nor does it look natural.
A lean man with some muscle is the hottest!!!
But big bulging muscles everywhere...that just looks...uncomfortable :'(
Especially when they start to look like they are carrying watermelons ha ha
This also looks funny...I have seen some guys they work out their upper body so much and then their legs and ass look tiny in comparison...to me it should balance with the rest of your body. Your arm should not be twice the size of your legs...etc I'm just babbling sorry to bud in....
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Why do guys want size anyway, WTF it does not look attractive AT ALL, nor does it look natural.
A lean man with some muscle is the hottest!!!
But big bulging muscles everywhere...that just looks...uncomfortable :'(
Especially when they start to look like they are carrying watermelons ha ha
This also looks funny...I have seen some guys they work out their upper body so much and then their legs and ass look tiny in comparison...to me it should balance with the rest of your body. Your arm should not be twice the size of your legs...etc I'm just babbling sorry to bud in....
Not all men are trying to put on a beauty pageant, bigger muscles means bigger strength (90% of the time that is..). Besides you are talking about the guys who are on lots, and LOTS of drugs and pump their muscles full of oils to make them look bigger, etc. Naturally you won't ever really get that really awkwardly huge look, but I guess that depends on who you ask.
I don't care what anyone says, a man should strive to be as strong as possible physically and mentally.
I will say though I totally agree about the leg thing :D
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Why do guys want size anyway, WTF it does not look attractive AT ALL, nor does it look natural.
A lean man with some muscle is the hottest!!!
But big bulging muscles everywhere...that just looks...uncomfortable :'(
Especially when they start to look like they are carrying watermelons ha ha
This also looks funny...I have seen some guys they work out their upper body so much and then their legs and ass look tiny in comparison...to me it should balance with the rest of your body. Your arm should not be twice the size of your legs...etc I'm just babbling sorry to bud in....
well. tell you the truth. At the time I got into it, I wanted to be intimidating and strong. And I was/am. I have heard a lot of women say the very thing you say untill they actually touch a pair biceps the size of their own thigh and from my personal experience (and rapports from others) these kinds of reservations, goes right away. I think it is a cultural thing. The further south you go, the more obvious a reaction you get from females. Up here, men are supposed to be cudly, soft, harmless, a-sexual, feminine. We are to dress like gay men and take advice on how to be real men from them in television programs. The alfa look is unpopular and anyone who persue it is by dictate of our culture obviously either stupid, have a small dick both, atleast it must be some kind of over-compensating. In cultures where testosterone is not viewed as a poison that destroys humans (read: females), it is more acceptable and desired. I guess you live in the western world, no? Not to spite your personal preference, it can be as genuine as anybodys, Im just sharing my experience. edit: A great example I can give is my own woman. As she told me, she never knew she had a muscle fetish untill we got married.
Nature does have its limits though. And the really big bodybuilders break those limits. Nature does not allow this;:
(http://kulturystyka.pl/wp-content/uploads/2008/03/nasser.bmp)
Dianabol and other growth hormones does. (I love Nasser el sonbaty, he is the only really huge pro i know that admits that he takes steroids: "what are you fucking stupid, ofcourse i take steroids, look at me")
This is possible to do without growth hormones
(http://www.t-nation.com/img/photos/2008/08-174-feature/image005.jpg)
(I dont think he is all natural, but i know for a fact that *ahrem* similar builds can be obtained through diet and work out alone)
*)Marcus Ruhl from Germany is one of the extreme boys. He released a video called "Big and loving it" which I think is one of the best bodybuilder videos ever (they all make them). He is honest, and he shows all of himself (no, not nudity). The highs the lows, the sorrows. and boy did I laugh when I saw this behemoth sit in a specially made suit the size of a circus tent crying tears of happiness at his wedding (you have to see him to understand why that is funny). Recommended.
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Yeah the huge juiced up guys make me pretty sick. Blasting out protein farts every 2 minutes and breathing heavy after walking up a flight of stairs.
I think the best example of naturally muscular physiques are the really really old bodybuilders, back before Arnold and the juice fest, they weren't nearly as big or ripped but I am sure they felt great and lived pretty healthy lives.
Brother- the dude in the second pic looks like he is "on" also, but I am not to judge.
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I think the best example of naturally muscular physiques are the really really old bodybuilders, back before Arnold and the juice fest, they weren't nearly as big or ripped but I am sure they felt great and lived pretty healthy lives.
It was called "physical culture" before it ever became bodybuilding. A major part of it was healthy living. that was kind of the whole point. Size was a goal worth persuing, but secondary to health. A deep loathing for refined everything, but especially sugar and flour.
Brother- the dude in the second pic looks like he is "on" also, but I am not to judge.
He is an admitted juicer. I am just saying that his size is realistic to reach with proper diet and work out alone.