Paleo Diet: Raw Paleo Diet and Lifestyle Forum
Raw Paleo Diet Forums => Off Topic => Topic started by: kurite on February 05, 2011, 07:53:17 am
-
I have been working with my trainer (who is also a dietician and naturopath) for tennis related stuff. I decided I want to start getting big and grow some real muscles. Anyway his reaction was no problem, but its just as much diet as it is lifting (he doesn't know Im raw paleo). So he goes I want you to start eating lots of fat and protein as well as fruit and vegetables. I raised my eyebrow as I asked if he meant animal protein and fat. He said absolutely, theres nothing better then animal fat and protein, and the closer to its natural state the better. My next question of course was what about raw. He said he thinks it would be fine as long as the animal is grass-fed organic. He still wants me to eat gluten free grains and raw grass fed goat dairy but I don't plan on adding that to my diet. Nevertheless I was very impressed.
-
That's pretty cool. But starches are pretty essential if you intend to gain size.
But you're strict on no, then google the anabolic diet.
-
That's pretty cool. But starches are pretty essential if you intend to gain size.
But you're strict on no, then google the anabolic diet.
I don't want to derail this thread, but If you are doing some kind of raw/mostly raw version of anabolic it would be intersting to see perhaps in another thread in 'hot topics'.
FWIW I have to concur that you probably arn't going to get bigger without starch (or raw dairy anyway). You can certainly 'grow real muscle' though. I experiment here and there with starch, but for the most part i'm probably like 98% raw by calorie still. I get stronger and fitter but stay mostly the same size. I'm one of 'those guys' at the gym..cept just running around crazier.
-
With 100% primal I was very content energy/healthwise but I also wanted to grow a bit of mass.
I have gained at least 5-10 pounds in January eating some cooked starches. Yams/ zizania/ broccoli/ radishes/ carrots
Sleep a little bit more but still feel great. I would probably go all raw for a while if I became ill or sluggish, maybe develop cycles, but so far it has worked out great.
-
Yah he seems pretty bent on getting some starches in me. Im wondering if their are any raw sources? I guess I could always sprout some quinoa or something. Also forthehunt and KD what is your cal intake look like? It seems even fruitarian can gain some muscle if they eat 6000+ cals a day so Im sure raw paleos could do it in like 4000.
-
Are raw tubers considered a source of starch? That's raw paleo in my book.
-
Yah but as far as I know most raw starch is mostly undigestable. I know Jerusalem Artichokes and yukons are raw edible but they are sweet and don't have as much starch as a potato.
-
Yah but as far as I know most raw starch is mostly undigestable. I know Jerusalem Artichokes and yukons are raw edible but they are sweet and don't have as much starch as a potato.
Don't bother with raw starches, I've been down that road.
As far as your calories go, don't bother with counting calories. Eat small frequent meals and just eat at maximum capacity. But don't over eat.
-
If you look for optimum health you can minimize stratches intake.
On the other side they can be used as steroids.
I belive that if you go on 1Meal at the end of the day which consists of high fat protein and another meal of high carbs at the midday you can seriously boost your hormones if ofcourse all the rest of the time you fast.
-
Don't bother with raw starches, I've been down that road.
I've been getting on well with raw butternut squash actually. That's somewhat starchy. I've eaten up to 1 kg a day.
Actually I've just looked at the nutrition data and it doesn't make sense. It says 12g carb per 100g. 2g sugar, 2g fiber but ~ symbol for starch.
So I guess it's 8g per 100g. Anyone know what's going on with that?
-
Home made sour kraut it a great addition to starches if you plan on going that route. This aids digestion tremendously for me.
-
I've been getting on well with raw butternut squash actually. That's somewhat starchy. I've eaten up to 1 kg a day.
Actually I've just looked at the nutrition data and it doesn't make sense. It says 12g carb per 100g. 2g sugar, 2g fiber but ~ symbol for starch.
So I guess it's 8g per 100g. Anyone know what's going on with that?
alot of it is water. By the time you finish eating the thing you've made 'negative calorie soup' in your stomach. Heh. Although I'm biased like above and think raw starches are probably only of value as some kind of mineral supplement.
Yah he seems pretty bent on getting some starches in me. Im wondering if their are any raw sources? I guess I could always sprout some quinoa or something. Also forthehunt and KD what is your cal intake look like? It seems even fruitarian can gain some muscle if they eat 6000+ cals a day so Im sure raw paleos could do it in like 4000.
low by comparison then I guess. maybe ~2600-3500
What fruitarians are building size on 6000 cals a day? Its certainly possible to build muscle on vegan diets, but raw fruits present an obstacle in a number of ways I think. Certainly cooked vegans can get large and even defined muscles, probably less than on other cooked diets, but nonetheless, the secret has something to do with the carbs and some might argue some stored bulk toxins in the cooked foods. I can see how some people can manipulate the same thing with just raw fruits if they are massively overdosing on calories, but even then its gong to be rare because most people arn't digesting much of that shit.
For me, it could very well be true in the future that once my body is totally healthy I will be able to put on weight even easier doing my same program. Its already happening to some degree and I think i'm now at my heaviest weight (while raw) in 5 years. Or I could try to force feed raw food now, at the same time, its never going to compare to whatever Christian Bale does or whatever.
but anyway, as a simple answer..you can gain muscle MASS on a variety of approaches, but likely not limited to meat and including perhaps fruit. I know someone doing just raw vegetarian (dairy, honey) that is very muscular and actually has a normal human size otherwise, but that seems fairly rare. Of note I guess is most carnivorous animals are fairly lean, although none of them look 'skinny' to my knowledge like the bulk of humans who restrict their diets to raw plants and/or meats. Just cooking the same foods (or likely a wider mix of paleo foods) obviously seems to make a difference when looking at alot of the cooked paleo/cf people. Although this likely carries other consequences that most raw foodists would like to avoid.
To me, it seems unfortunate in this as with other raw camps that most people would rather fuss how raw or how healthy their diet is on paper rather than actually bring down the results where it matters. After being on a variety of unhealthy 'health' programs that likely were not going to give me any more longevity then the average bird, it made more sense to me that I would only do things that made my life worth living in the present. As a young unmaried person, this included having a build that is at least presentable in society as 'healthy' as being fairly important, and being less fussy in social situations if need be. The point being in regard to starch, is that although we can't comment on traditional peoples in a WAP style to say that 'this' will correct all our health issues, at the same time if we can use any of these tools to our advantage, and are otherwise in a good state of health, it makes alot of sense to do so, rather than holding on to mere ideas of what is healthy without the results we really want.
-
KD, By all means do what works for you, but I don't buy the assumptions. If you see old pictures of Inuit they're often big strong guys. In terms of predators Lions are massive (but lean yes).
Maybe it's different if you don't grow up on a raw diet, but IMO you can put on at least a 'healthy' amount of muscle mass on raw paleo, and maybe more.
-
By all means do what works for you, but I don't buy the assumptions. If you see old pictures of Inuit they're often big strong guys. In terms of predators Lions are massive (but lean yes).
Maybe it's different if you don't grow up on a raw diet, but IMO you can put on at least a 'healthy' amount of muscle mass on raw paleo, and maybe more.
The state of health of the tissue has alot to do with it. Often for most people in regard to building muscle...this will just be another holy grail like waiting for one's weight to 'balance out' on a low-cal or vegan diet. I don't know if your comment was directed at me or just generally, but I've actually made certain results on this type of diet, and just describing some likely limits and what I believe are realistic expectations. If you have not, its sounds like you are the one making the assumptions based on other people/animals etc.. and not your own experiences. When you put on serious mass in a 1-2 month period eating just meats and fruits like people do all the time on other approaches...drop me a line. I just threw in the animals thing myself actually as a counterpoint to the argument that I was making that in a sense said that most people attempting to eat like wild animals...arn't necessarily going to look like the healthiest natural human..whatever that is. Even common people might assume that if you eat tons of meat your are going to get huge, but it doesn't seem to work this way when eating raw and a large part of that is the body has alot of crap going on. I personally don't feel the need to bulk up on tons of starches or cooked foods or whatever, but saying that people will do so just eating raw paleo is disingenuous per the topic and that is all there is to it.
-
KD: Well I think we're talking at cross purposes about the amount. You said a healthy amount of bulk for our society, and I assumed you meant an average person lifting weights and getting bigger.
I could buy that perhaps you can't reach bodybuilder or world class powerlifter levels without eating cooked starches. I don't think putting on a good amount muscle mass through weights and eating is necessarily a problem on raw paleo, although different people are different. In fact when I started training before Christmas I was all raw and I hypertrophied very quickly in that time. (I'm bigger than the pic, and my nose has been broken since then!)
Obviously it depends how you define healthy, but I'd be happy if I was as bulky as an Inuit at my height.
Lets be honest, neither of us has any evidence either way it's just broscience and speculation, so maybe you have your opinion and I have mine.
-
Plenty of professional bodybuilders built up massive muscles when on raw diets during the pre-steroid era from c. 1900 to 1970 or so. People like Armand Tanny etc. Perhaps the gross, unnatural sizes that modern bodybuilders have would be unattainable on rawpalaeo, but reaching that size requires all sorts of very unhealthy behaviours( re constant dehydration before a competition for definition etc.)
-
Perhaps the gross, unnatural sizes that modern bodybuilders have would be unattainable on rawpalaeo, but reaching that size requires all sorts of very unhealthy behaviours
Yes I'm talking about the modern ones. Tanney actually looks very good, looks like he ate raw milk products as well as this lot though.
n 1948 he shut off his stove and ate just about everything raw from then on--tuna, beef, liver, lobster, oysters, clams, nuts, seeds, fruits and vegetables. Armand recalls wading out into the surf along the Santa Monica Pier and using his feet to kick up 6- to 7-inch Pismo clams, smashing them together to get at the pink and white flesh. Armand also took brewer’s yeast, desiccated liver, yogurt, black strap molasses and wheat germ oil, all recommendations of Gaylord Hauser
-
Lets be honest, neither of us has any evidence either way it's just broscience and speculation, so maybe you have your opinion and I have mine.
the difference is your opinion is based on some theory of what you expect raw paleo to do for you, wheras mine has to do with the level it is working for me. I wasn't looking at you pic to gauage whether you knew what you are talking about or not, as I already know what the general situation is as will apply to most people. Like I said, my goals are fairly satisfied, but the thing per the topic is that while nutrition experts might not know the best way to cure of avoid disease, they often know what works for many fitness and atlethic things that won't necessarily translate to raw. Just thinking that raw foods supply more nutrition or this that or the other things..is the WRONG way of thinking about this stuff.
Personally I have found eating basically 100% raw has been beneficial for my strength, fitness and physique, but it has limits on what it can do in terms of making my body any bigger in the near future. For people with goals of 'getting big' this does not have to be Olympic or just competitive builds and usually just want 'average' healthy male builds, so you are being unnecessarily hyperbolic in comparison to most peoples goals. The truth is..I am smaller than 80% of males that work out and exercise and do all that crap that it says to do in health magazines. It doesn't mean that my build isn't good or desirable or whatever..just closer to the 'bruce lee' kind of model, which is fine by me honestly. But is any of this my opinion? not really.. just my experience and knowledge of other people often in the same circumstance. I don't see what having a broken nose means, but here is a pic of mine that is pretty new @ around 170, I took it 5 minutes ago.
(http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff68/kresseger/kd_febs.jpg?t=1296932312)
-
KD, again we are talking at cross purposes. I already agreed that there might be limits. However, you mentioned a healthy level of muscle. From what I can see you do have a 'healthy' level, you're quite a big guy.
If you want to look like the other guys in the gym, that's up to you, but the point is your physique is far from abnormally small. If you see it that way, then without wishing to offend you maybe you should look at that.
People reach plateaus that are not all about diet, and have to change up their training.
A lot of guys in the gym are juiced as well, so comparing to them is pointless.
the difference is your opinion is based on some theory of what you expect raw paleo to do for you, wheras mine has to do with the level it is working for me
I have to take issue with that as you did not talk in terms of what was working for you, you said 'often for most people' which is a misleading phrase as we don't have evidence of 'most people'.
My opinion is not based on 'theory' either, it's based on my experience of gaining weight quickly before Christmas.
-
ok it is somewhat clear that you jsut want to play the same cards over and over without actually showing examples of either yourself or other people actually gaining size in comparison to other programs. To me this is the crux of this debate and not how 'bad' raw paleo is for muscle growth.
Who said abnormally small? I said many people that try to do copycat diets end up alot 'skinnier' than the lean animals or people they emulate, and that this has alot to do with health generally. I said people can gain muscle, but they won't reach past a certain capacity eating all raw paleo. And then I said 80% of dudes my the gym from regular joes to juicers have a larger build then me. didn't say cut, or strength, or fitness, as most are in the dust there. I'm talking like taking a tape measure to the situation.
There are plenty of ways to objectify size, like measurements etc. I'm very proud of my build, but to me I like it because it is very streamlined and cat like, some people do not want that. So actually I have a high opinion of it, but wearing clothing and to others its not very impressive if I was to categorize myself as the healthiest person doing every thing possible for the best health. Catch my drift?
Of course i'm not at the average for one because average is more or less overweight. If I was to get measured by a tailor or something it would be apparent I can practically wear small size clothing. Point being, I am not 'big' per the conversation as I understood it, and was speaking of 'getting big' on raw in comparison to suggestions of a trainer. As I see it from a purely objective standpoint, raw paleo would be inferior. Of course this is discounting health and other things.
My opinion is not based on 'theory' either, it's based on my experience of gaining weight quickly before Christmas.
ok, then you must have documented your size at that point if you had such miraculous results. This isn't subjective conversation here. its about which methods work the best. I already know I'm not going to beat out Christian Bale and his contemporary nutrition programs. I know how to work my routines and get the best results I can, yet acknolwedge various things which can be helpful to accept for others.
before your edit, you asked where I live, well heck I live in freakin' America man. Average dude in my neighborhood is probably twice my size eating ghetto food and just shooting baskets for exercise. You think I intimidate them? hehe
-
I'm sorry but I'm not really enjoying debating with you because you have a tendency to both ignore what I'm saying and shift the goalposts.
You did not start out by saying 'in comparison with other programs'
I don't know where to start replying because you're either misreading what I say or using an aggressive debating tactic designed to win crowds, not actually shed light on issues.
Wish you well mate, but not gonna discuss it further.
-
I'm sorry but I'm not really enjoying debating with you because you have a tendency to both ignore what I'm saying and shift the goalposts.
You did not start out by saying 'in comparison with other programs'
I don't know where to start replying because you're either misreading what I say or using an aggressive debating tactic designed to win crowds, not actually shed light on issues.
Wish you well mate, but not gonna discuss it further.
lol thats me, the crowd pleaser.
start out?
I don't want to derail this thread, but If you are doing some kind of raw/mostly raw version of anabolic it would be intersting to see perhaps in another thread in 'hot topics'.
FWIW I have to concur that you probably arn't going to get bigger without starch (or raw dairy anyway). You can certainly 'grow real muscle' though. I experiment here and there with starch, but for the most part i'm probably like 98% raw by calorie still. I get stronger and fitter but stay mostly the same size. I'm one of 'those guys' at the gym..cept just running around crazier.
basically since you can't come to the table with any hard evidence, and want to redefine basic things like measurements and weight gain, what tactic do I need there to spin that around ? How much weight did you gain? I can tell you i've spent years trying to gain like 10 lbs of muscle, with some people following some trainers advice probably getting that in one-two months. IICR you are the one using a similar devils advocate tactic as in the past, as you have no actual knowledge whatsover or experience with this issue.
the story is simple. Theres a trainer and someone with an idera of what will give them the best results, but actually the trainer is correct. this is the lesson. Doesn't mean 100% raw paleo diets arn't the best overall, but not for serious muscle growth, for whatever that is worth.
-
How many times can I say it? You didn't start off talking about serious muscle growth, you were talking about a 'healthy size'
You keep demanding evidence, but it's not a matter for that since I already agreed there may be some practical limits to growth on a raw paleo diet.
And you already conceded that you can get quite big on raw paleo.
I conclude you're willfuly ignoring what I say to win percieved points. I'm not really interested in this 'alpha male' game playing, so if you think you've won enjoy it hotshot.
-
How many times can I say it? You didn't start off talking about serious muscle growth, you were talking about a 'healthy size'
You keep demanding evidence, but it's not a matter for that since I already agreed there may be some practical limits to growth on a raw paleo diet.
And you already conceded that you can get quite big on raw paleo.
I conclude you're willfuly ignoring what I say to win percieved points...with this kind of game playing I can't really count you as a friend on here. Good day to you sir.
dude, its because you arn't saying anything of use. I've listed my experiences and tremendous amount of information on way It would be wise to reconsider a purist approach for ALL fitness, size and strength goals. All you have given is theories as to how people SHOULD DO FINE, which is precisely the problem I am putting forward. You won't post any progress shots, because you basically did not put on size doing what you were doing, and thus are upset about your theory not working out and the fact that I am probably correct. So now you want people to acknowledge it anyway? seems odd.
When have I conceded you can get big on raw paleo? That precisely what I am not saying. Its possible but incredibly unlikely, and why bother if ones goal is the size/sport anyway. There are people eating just raw paleo that don't even work out that have normal healthy impressive builds, but this isn't the conversation at all, and that is also not the norm unfortunately.
-
Hey sorry Ive been gone all day so I didn't get to post to much. KD, even normal bodybuilders strive for more calories then what you are getting. Sure 3500 is way above the minimum value needed but in terms of getting larger muscles you need to consistently present your body with 4000 cals+. You said somedays you were down to 2600 cals. This could be a huge hindrance. Also I realize most raw paleos don't count cals but forthehunt do you have any idea of your calorie intake?
-
Hey sorry Ive been gone all day so I didn't get to post to much. KD, even normal bodybuilders strive for more calories then what you are getting. Sure 3500 is way above the minimum value needed but in terms of getting larger muscles you need to consistently present your body with 4000 cals+. You said somedays you were down to 2600 cals. This could be a huge hindrance. Also I realize most raw paleos don't count cals but forthehunt do you have any idea of your calorie intake?
Its possible, but I would consider that to be one and the same as the 'problem' with eating this way. Ironically the same can be said for anabolic diet. The more mineral rich dense fats and meats you eat, the less you are going to want to eat. This is one reason (other than the composition of the foods) that drinking raw dairy, honey, starches and all sorts of other things begin to become an asset. I already feel like I eat more than I care to. Again i'm not so much as bitching about progress or lack-there-of..quite the opposite. I'm only stating what I would think is the obvious that there are much easier ways of going about such things. For me I seem to be fairly limited still in what I can eat AND feel good, but for others they would certainly be selling themselves short thinking that eating the most limited raw nutritious foods will have the best gains. Certain things work well..and you can't always break down and substitute the foods/ratios etc...into raw and expect it to be the same. That said, I'm sure I will continue to make improvements, but then again I do a variety of the little things already that are different than a diet of just animal fats, meats, and fruits.
---
Just to be clear on the difference between caveman/Bruce-type builds and 'big'
here is a clip form Dragon: the Bruce Lee Story
http://movieclips.com/KTkA-dragon-the-bruce-lee-story-movie-im-bruce-lee/
now supposedly this is based on his life, but obviously for film purposes the Bruce character (who is is played by someone WAY bigger than Bruce was) is supposed to be the small person beating all the big gallutes. The tall blond guy and the black guy are probably no more fit/ripped than the Chinese actor here, but they are clearly 'big guys'. These are the kind of builds that raw paleo diets do not accommodate well I suspect.
heres some tremendous athletes and a few others with impressive builds that would never be considered 'big guys'.
rondo
(http://blog.seattlepi.com/seattlesportsguy/library/rondo_web.jpg)
tiger
(http://www.thebuzzinthecity.com/mag/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/TIGER-WOODS-SHIRTLESS-VANITY-FAIR.jpg)
Jake
(http://justjared.buzznet.com/headlines/2010/04/shirtless-jake-gyllenhaal.jpg)
Jake is basically my age and he probably has some of the same natural limitations. Whatever he is doing it certainly works better than myself and gauging by how he used to look was done in probably way shorter time.
Dave Chapell
(http://www.contactmusic.com/pics/lb/david_chappelle_150209/david_chappelle_outside_sobe_club_2292100.jpg)
pretty fit actually, yet no one would ever call Dave Chapell a 'big guy'. Compared to many folks he's lanky, but would probably pass for 'astonishing' on a raw food forum. My point is that if we have the code to the absolute best nutriton programs, there should be a way to tweak it for whatever purposes. For whatever reasons, my bet is people will continue to have better results in this particular area through non raw or at least non paleo stuff.
now here is Lebron James who is not some WWF wrestler but I would definitely be quite terrified of even wielding a knife.
(http://sportscasm.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/lbj_shirtless.jpg)
-
I absolutely agree on the difference between well muscled and just plain huge but I also believe with enough calories from various sources that one can get quite large on raw paleo. Armand Tanny wasn't eating 100% raw paleo but pretty close and he was Mr. USA. So its definately possible but if your body is telling you to slow up on the calories then I wouldn't go against it, but Bodybuilders do eat way past what their bodies naturally tell them to eat to get the results of getting bigger.
-
I absolutely agree on the difference between well muscled and just plain huge but I also believe with enough calories from various sources that one can get quite large on raw paleo. Armand Tanny wasn't eating 100% raw paleo but pretty close and he was Mr. USA. So its definately possible but if your body is telling you to slow up on the calories then I wouldn't go against it, but Bodybuilders do eat way past what their bodies naturally tell them to eat to get the results of getting bigger.
hmm..my current belief is that eating a tremendous portion of raw foods mainly of animal origin is the best bet for health,strength,fitness/whathaveyou. Possibly for actual muscle growth as well. While Tanny is great representation for all natural and largely raw nutrition, I think its fudging somewhat to call what Tanny was doing 'raw paleo' per this particular conversation. My main point anyway is all those little things, the dairy, the occasional cooked foods, the food based supplements etc...do go a long way. Theres a number of actual competitive bodybuilders doing perhaps all raw...but them and Tanny is far closer to Primal I'd say. Theres people in the 100% cooked paleo camps likewise with amazing physiques, so it can't be seen entirely as an issue of lacking non paleo food either. What I am saying is that many things contribute, and that adding tons of calories of raw fruits, meats and fats isn't necessarily gong to make up for it. When I say this I do not mean just for getting scary big, but also muscular athletic builds, although the latter is definitely possible...just probably more challenging without those same tweaks...
Basically I'd wager your trainer is aware of such and doesn't think eating a tremendous amount of raw meat is ridiculous for health and that these other things are necessary for nutrition (ok likely he/she thinks this) but more that they will just work better for those goals.
the comparrisons were not directed at you btw, just generally speaking, and where I believe I fall in with the lean muscled-skinny-guy camp. ;)
-
Looking at your pics I would never say your a skinny guy in any way. However I do feel that even raw paleo nutrition is still missing something. Its not dairy but I'm starting to think some source of starch whether it be cooked or raw is a piece to the puzzle. As far as my studies have gone, basically all paleo tribes still in existance other than the carnivorous ones eat lots of root and tubers. Some raw some not but the question is can they be a healthy addition to the diet? So far the only ones ive ever really eaten is grains and potatos/sweet potatos which (correct me if im wrong) but were poisonous pre-genetic breeding. All three of these sources give me problems. However non grainy grains such as quinoa seems to not be as bad, as well as non-gluten grains such as rice.
-
Also KD forgot to ask the most basic question. What does your routine look like?
-
KD, again you did not start off by talking about getting to strength athlete levels you talked about a healthy size. So yes my responses were about that. Then you shifted to talking about something different and critisised my responses in terms of a strength athlete.
This is more for the record as I suspect you're being deliberately abrasive. I'm not interested in dick fencing, so i'll stick to the more measured discussions that used to be the mainstay on here.
-
Looking at your pics I would never say your a skinny guy in any way. However I do feel that even raw paleo nutrition is still missing something. Its not dairy but I'm starting to think some source of starch whether it be cooked or raw is a piece to the puzzle. As far as my studies have gone, basically all paleo tribes still in existance other than the carnivorous ones eat lots of root and tubers. Some raw some not but the question is can they be a healthy addition to the diet? So far the only ones ive ever really eaten is grains and potatos/sweet potatos which (correct me if im wrong) but were poisonous pre-genetic breeding. All three of these sources give me problems. However non grainy grains such as quinoa seems to not be as bad, as well as non-gluten grains such as rice.
hmm..its hard to say. I think there is a difference between nutrition in whatever purists sense (toxins) or whatever...and what types of things are opportunistic. I think even traditional peoples are aware of such things and wouldn't sweat many of the other things. This is one reason cooking caught on...because in those environments it was beneficial in many respects and not as detrimental as it is for us trying to gain health. Most people are backtracking and trying to regain health so it makes sense, but I think for people already healthy and want the best performance its a tad different you know...But to say raw paleo will be the best..even for minor goals (as per above) is just wrong..it isnt'. I tend to find tubers to be basically hard to eat raw or cooked. Raw starch is bascially not healthy to eat as a mainstay. I went through a phase eating tons of cooked sweat potato and qunoia sprouted and also cooked. I really have a hard time eating these foods now for taste reasons alone..in addition to some general sugar issues. Right now if I eat cooked starch I will eat tubers I get locally and some varieties are ok. I've been 100% grain free for awhile now..but in the future I might consider eating rice (or some kind of fermented product) just because it tastes better. I always through those criticisms of grains needing spices or whatever to be palatable to be off.
Also KD forgot to ask the most basic question. What does your routine look like?
what you mean eating or working out?
http://www.rawpaleoforum.com/exercisebodybuilding/today%27s-workout/380/
I'm not interested in dick fencing
you have like 5-6 posts with 0 content but insults, you started the argument with your 'assumptions' comment based on either something I wrote that was not at all an assumption..or some crack about your raw starch consumption..who knows what set you off. You keep saying i'm changing terms..but I literally mean for ALL goals not just steroid beasts..and I've said that numerous times, so you are wrong there as well. All types of goals it will be worse. ok? Either way you basically know nothing about the subject and are just another blind paleo cheerleader with 0 facts or experience. If anything that type of thing makes the site loose integrity. The point is we should stick to our facts about which diets promote the best health, but make distinctions when it comes to other things.
When have I conceded you can get big on raw paleo? That precisely what I am not saying. Its possible but incredibly unlikely, and why bother if ones goal is the size/sport anyway. There are people eating just raw paleo that don't even work out that have normal healthy impressive builds, but this isn't the conversation at all, and that is also not the norm unfortunately.
If you have any positive information to add, or really were 'done with arguing' I think that would have happened already.
-
Raw starch is bascially not healthy to eat as a mainstay. I went through a phase eating tons of cooked sweat potato and qunoia sprouted and also cooked. I really have a hard time eating these foods now for taste reasons alone..in addition to some general sugar issues. Right now if I eat cooked starch I will eat tubers I get locally and some varieties are ok. I've been 100% grain free for awhile now..but in the future I might consider eating rice (or some kind of fermented product) just because it tastes better. I always through those criticisms of grains needing spices or whatever to be palatable to be off.
Similiar experience as me, raw starch doesn't usually go down too well. Cooked plain grains worked for a while. Spiced grains, no matter how ayurvedic or otherwise, I got acne and other health problems.
-
Similiar experience as me, raw starch doesn't usually go down too well. Cooked plain grains worked for a while. Spiced grains, no matter how ayurvedic or otherwise, I got acne and other health problems.
Sure..well the problem is even if you can eat in any quantity without gas and other such things...which would be rare...your body actually uses alot of energy trying to process it. So for people eating 100% raw and eating a little starch..that is fine...they might get some vitamins and some minerals without some of the issues of sweeter fruits. Basically it really won't be very usefull for 'bulking' in comparison to the same thing cooked and that is mostly what I am suggesting. That one cant take even the same menu of something that works in cooked bodybuilding/athleticism and apply it to raw, whether one wants to be Schwarzenegger or Erwan Le Corre.
Do you find cooked grains do better for you now then cooked tubers? (if you eat them still)?
-
Do you find cooked grains do better for you now then cooked tubers? (if you eat them still)?
I tried them now. Grains taste better cooked than tubers do cooked. Grains just don't work though raw or cooked, they give me anxiety and more. Good rejuvelac is ok though. Raw tubers don't bother me, but I don't eat them in quantity if at all most of the time.
-
what you mean eating or working out?
http://www.rawpaleoforum.com/exercisebodybuilding/today%27s-workout/380/
Well its no wonder, your routine is optimized for building mass. If we are talking functional strength then your routine is fine but if your goal is to get big then you need to change it up big time.
-
Well its no wonder, your routine is optimized for building mass. If we are talking functional strength then your routine is fine but if your goal is to get big then you need to change it up big time.
did you mean 'not optimized'?
Sure what I do might not be the best for bodybuilding and putting on weight..I do not know.
Ironically what I am doing now has had the best results so far but before I was doing cf and biking and all sorts of shit which wern't exactly conducive to weight gain. I've thought of another comparison though (I'm sure you are excited).
I have never really read up on too much weight training stuff to know what is good progress, but like I said - I have indeed experienced a number of almost freakish improvements on this diet. One of which is pretty noticeable by going to CF. When I started out for one I probably hadn't re-adapted to this type of diet..particular fat, but overall I could hardly compete in much of the workouts. Less than 6 months later I made just a ginormous amount of progress (i'd say more than others or was usual) in pretty much all avenues:endurance, strength, speed. To me although there are a number of things that set my diet apart to folks there other than just raw (grass-fed, high fat etc..) the raw thing seemed to be the main difference as a factor..other than perhaps my inherent drive or makeup or something..
but heres the thing...I... havn't really shifted that much in size, and although I have gotten way stronger...most of the other dudes will still get bigger and stronger than I will based on the way those diets (even paleo-ish) work. Its not about like being unable to do this or that...its just which things will work 'better' faster etc...
Like there is no way that I am going to compete with someone drinking 1 gallon of milk a day as far as building mass. I could try to eat 1/2 lb MORE of suet or 2/3 lb of butter or something, but it isn't going to work because these are different foods and work differently. Likewise if I eat 10 bananas its not going to be the same as 2 sweat potatoes or whatever. So yes I could be doing something different with calories..or routine..but what I am saying is it will not be 'easier' it will be 'harder' on a strict raw paleo diet. Once you set the bar at a certain level I am also saying it will be very unlikely, but prior to that it will still be less efficient even if your body is arguably more efficient and using better materials.
The one-day mandatory trainer at my new gym asked me what my goals were..and I said "I dunno like gain 5-10 lbs in the next year>" heh. I thoroughly enjoy working out, and coming from alot of fatigue issues leaving some kind of intense exercise leaves my body feeling fantastic, and my blood clean or something of that feeling. So at this point i'm just doing what seems to work and having fun. I can say tho that I don't believe if I cut out the raw butter and did just suet or if I didn't do some of the other things which are 'paleo' but not so often tied in like seaweeds, mushrooms, local herbs and grasses, lots of seafoods and organ meats.....and just ate suet, beef and fruit that I would be doing as well in athletics OR my health actually. I'll do a week with just suet or something and it isn't the same. Now looking at some of the people doing Primal bodybuilding and such, I'd say yeah they would have an edge on my edge that is more 'paleo-ish' diet, and likewise to the cooked food dudes. Thats pretty much what I am saying. Not that people wither and die on raw paleo. I already had said that even raw vegans can gain muscle mass. jIn regards to the trainer or in some of these other things...these ways will be 'better' for growth..no matter what end size we are talking about.
-
Ha apparently raw paleo can cure a lot of things but not typos. Yah I meant its not optimized for building bulk, it is much more for strength which you had mentioned earlier as increasing without increasing the actual size of your muscles. I have read up quite a few bodybuilding books and would go as far to say that many natural bodybuilders eat a paleoish diet, however they won't say paleo simply because they don't know about the paleo diet.
I would also agree that raw paleo may not be optimal for getting larger especially for some such as forthehunt, but brother said he was making great gains on this diet. I personally am still not 100% raw paleo (I am 100% paleo though) so I won't report any results until Ive been lifting on 100% but I feel that paleo has helped quite a bit. Also what is cf?
-
but brother said he was making great gains on this diet. I personally am still not 100% raw paleo (I am 100% paleo though) so I won't report any results until Ive been lifting on 100% but I feel that paleo has helped quite a bit. Also what is cf?
I think you might want to double check what type of diet he is/or was doing.
cf is cross-fit which is a paleo/zone centered gym so its a more specifc base of comparrison per my point. I doubt the calorie ranges are that remakably differnt as these guys are not tradtional bodybuilder mindest types. Sorry, hope that makes more sense now. I had mentioned that in the workout thread alot so figured people knew I was involved with that. In a way I mispoke because its possible I actually gained more strength as a percentage than others..but that many people were still way stronger (as well as bigger). That part (strength) clearly isn't a detriment to raw, although size i'm guessing has some thershold for strength. You are right one can get stronger without bulking but the same applies that drinking a gallon of milk will probably get you both quicker. If I start benching over 300 lbs (which seems possible now) at my size that will be quite fantastic tho :). But yeah i'm not saying people will just get stuck in circles eating fruit meat and fat and working out...just that certain thigns work better than others, even if they just want a fit lean physique.
I think the key is in the 'ish'