Paleo Diet: Raw Paleo Diet and Lifestyle Forum
Raw Paleo Diet Forums => General Discussion => Topic started by: PaleoPhil on May 11, 2011, 07:37:40 am
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Has anyone tried fermenting raw honey (and I don't mean mead making)? A guy at another forum asked and I'm curious myself. I know it involves a little moisture and warmth (not heating) and probably some exposure to air.
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The process you're describing produces mead. I'm not sure what you are referring to as mead, but that is what will happen if you add a little extra water to raw, unheated honey and then cap it. It doesn't even really need much warmth, but temperature will determine fermentation rate. In order to make it easier to sweeten things like coffee and tea and egg smoothies, I usually take a glass mason jar, put 1 part raw honey and one part water in to it. The honey dissolves in the water and if left sealed for any length of time it will begin to ferment. You know this because each time you remove the lid, you hear a rush of air escape, the gasses produced during fermentation.
In fact, fermentation will occur even under refrigeration, but again it will take longer at that temp.
It is quite delicious, but if you leave it for a long time, depending on moisture content it can become quite potent, I believe 13-16% alcohol, which isn't bad considering all you did was to add water. I don't like the taste of alcohol and here is no exception, but it's not bad as far as alcoholic beverages go. Sometimes I will add large amounts of lemon or lime juice, fresh squeezed in to it and mMmm, nummers!
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Mead is a drink. I think paleophil wants fermented honey that you can eat, not drink. I guess just adding enough water to wet the honey might work?
Sometimes when I buy honeycomb sold in sealed plastic boxes some of it has unintentionally fermented and you can taste and smell the alcohol in it.
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Oh for sure. Yeah you would just add only a little bit of water, but it's still going to ferment in to alcohol like you said. I guess the amount of moisture you add would set the limit for how much fermentation could take place. If you add too little water, if I remember correctly very little will happen. I think I tried that back when I first tried to ferment and nothing came of it so I went to the other extreme and mixed 1 part water with 1 part honey. You will have to experiment to get your desired effect.
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Thanks, Haai, you understood me correctly. Yes, CitrusHigh, I am familiar with what mead is, thanks. I can understand not seeing clearly the difference between mead and raw fermented honey because I was surprised myself when I learned that there's a significant difference. I've often consumed both mead and raw fermented honey and I can assure you that the difference is quite noticeable. Like Haai said, mead is a liquid beverage, whereas raw fermented honey is a thick, sticky product that looks like honey. I hope the following clarifies it further:
"Since early times, man has made fermented drinks with honey. The most important was mead, an alcoholic beverage, enjoyed by the English and Russians. The word derives from the Sanskrit word for honey, which is madhu. A similar drink called t’ej is popular in Ethiopia.
What is less well known is the fact that honey itself can ferment, if it contains enough residual moisture [please note that it's not equal parts water or anywhere near that] and is left in a warm place–honey ferments but never spoils! Fermented honey actually expands somewhat, and develops rich flavors. It is an even better aid to digestion than regular honey.
The recipes in the sidebar all call for raw, unfiltered honey, preferably fermented, and all involve lactic-acid fermentation to which the honey contributes. In all of them, the enzymes are preserved, as none require high temperatures to prepare." --Sally Fallon, http://planetthrive.com/2007/08/benefits-of-raw-fermented-honey/
So the biggest difference is that mead requires a lot more water, which produces a product that is much more alcoholic. Mead looks like wine, a liquid beverage and often semi-clear, whereas raw fermented honey does not look much different from standard raw honey. Here's an image of the standard Really Raw brand honey, and I can't see any difference between the appearance of that vs. the fermented honey I buy from them, based on this image: (http://healthylifestyles.org/store/productdata/Really-Raw-Honey.jpg), though I'll bet there is some difference that I could see if I held both products up closely together and examined them.
Here's an image of the mead I've had: (http://www.caledoniaspirits.com/picts/sidebar-6.jpg)
Also, from what I've read, commercial mead usually employs added brewer's yeast, rather than relying on the natural yeast in the honey. Sometimes grain mash, spices, fruit, or hops is added to mead.
Sally Fallon provides some hints on how to make your own fermented honey, but she doesn't give much in the way of details. I'm guessing that one just adds a drop or two of water, keeps the jar open a crack and keeps it in a mildly warm place. I'm interested in hearing from anyone who has made their own raw fermented honey (not mead).
Please no one post about mead again in this thread. I know it's well intentioned, but I would prefer if possible that this thread stay on the subject of raw fermented honey containing no more than trace amounts of alcohol, even after being stored for lengthy time periods. On the Internet there is already much confusing of raw fermented honey with mead and I was hoping to avoid that. Thanks.
Oh for sure. Yeah you would just add only a little bit of water, but it's still going to ferment in to alcohol like you said.
The Really Raw brand of fermented honey does not taste alcoholic, nor does it noticeably have any of the effects of alcohol, and their spokesperson assured me that there is at most only trace amounts of alcohol in it.
RFH is more of a fermented food like sauerkraut than a fermented beverage. Sauerkraut is raw fermented cabbage which also contains a trace amount of alcohol (about 0.25% ethyl alcohol" according to the Handbook of indigenous fermented foods By Keith H. Steinkraus). No one would mistake sauerkraut for an alcoholic beverage (at least I hope not :P ).
I guess the amount of moisture you add would set the limit for how much fermentation could take place. If you add too little water, if I remember correctly very little will happen. I think I tried that back when I first tried to ferment and nothing came of it so I went to the other extreme and mixed 1 part water with 1 part honey. You will have to experiment to get your desired effect.
Yes, it probably does require some experimentation and I was hoping that someone might have had success with making their own fermented honey like the Really Raw brand, which is thick and creamy rather than watery and has no alcoholic taste or effect, rather than your 50-50 semi-mead mix.
If I ever learn how to do it, I'll share what I learn here. If I'm successful I'll have the option of buying local honey and fermenting it myself instead of relying completely on expensive product shipped across country.
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High moisture (18.6%) and tempurature above 80 deg. F. is what is cited as conditions for honey to ferment. Source: http://www.gobeekeeping.com/lesson%20seven.htm
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Thanks for the info.
[From the article at the link:] "This causes honey to have a sour taste. It is recommended that if honey is to be stored for any length of time, it should have a moisture content of around 17%. The honey yeast are not able to grow at cool temperatures. So if honey is stored at below 50 degrees F., the yeast will not grow and are not able to grow and cause fermentation. Fermented honey can be feed back to the bees but it is unfit for human consumption."
LOL! Sour taste? Unfit for human consumption? Either Really Raw's fermented honey is not really fermented (pun intended :) ) or these folks don't know what they're talking about. It's the best tasting honey that I've tried yet, and I've tried probably close to a dozen at this point. There was a slight sort-of-sour taste along with the sweet taste the first time I tried a little, but after that it has tasted purely sweet.
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To the beekeeper with a demand for unfermented honey, fermented honey means a spoiled crop. These are the same producers that kill (heat) their honey to make it shelf-stable.
What a strange sterile world we live in.
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Glad to see you got your info Phil! That sally fallon quote is where I first got the idea to ferment honey, But though I added significant residual moisture nothing happened, I'm guessing the temp wasn't sufficient. Will have to give it a go again!
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It's all mead though Phil seriously.
Just joking. I'm interested in trying this. I will leave a jar of honey out with a little water sometime.
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Ha ha, I like how you put the joke message further down to make me wonder whether you were serious, Josh. Yeah, it's a bit of a pet peeve of mine because every single time without fail that I mention raw fermented honey to family, friends or online, someone says something like "I don't know if it's such a good idea to eat fermented honey with all that alcohol in it" or "that's called mead" or such. l) Then it tends to take two, three or more tries to explain it. Doesn't anger me though; just a might frustrating. I'm learning that I have to really spell it out any time I mention raw fermented honey to someone who doesn't know what it is. Even most of the beekeepers don't fully understand fermented honey. It's almost a completely lost art. Thank goodness the Really Raw folks are reviving it. I'll bet the beekeepers must think Really Raw are crazy for asking them to make fermented honey for them. :D
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The optimum temperature for honey fermentation is above 80 degrees F.
I am going to set my honey jar on the water heater and see if the added temperature doesn't help it to ferment.
PaleoPhil, please try to ferment some honey and let us know how it goes!
I think I will pass this information about fermented honey on to local, raw honey producers and ask they try their hand at fermented honey.
;D
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Tonight I added fermented honey to unfermented, to see if the fermented will innoculate the unfermented.
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My experiment has 50 g honey + 10 g water, which is my crude estimate of 20% moisture. I didn't know the moisture of the honey to begin with, but I assumed it was 17%. No starter. Aerobic container (allows air in, filters dust/bugs out). Warm area of the house.
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Great! Keep us informed!
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My experiment has 50 g honey + 10 g water, which is my crude estimate of 20% moisture. I didn't know the moisture of the honey to begin with, but I assumed it was 17%. No starter. Aerobic container (allows air in, filters dust/bugs out). Warm area of the house.
Results: ...three months later... i tasted my little dollop of hydrous honey, and it had gotten a little tangy. I didn't see any visible signs of fermentation, though. When I said, "Warm area of the house," it was a relative term - I don't live in a very warm part of the country. Conclusion: Fermenting honey is not my new favorite hobby. I was cleaning out the kitchen, and I decided that I didn't want a random jar of honey hanging around, so the experiment is over.
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Yeah, nothing much happened with my experiment either, even though I added some fermented honey, hoping it would seed the unfermented honey.
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I actually had one of my jars of honey from last year "go" fermented. It was not due to anything I did intentionally. It tastes great. Over on the runny honey thread, I mentioned that I bought a few jars of runny honey from the same apiary this year... and now I'm wondering how to deliberately ferment it. I know the theory - moisture plus temperature. How can I implement it? Ideas? Yes, I can buy the already-fermented stuff, but I'm just a farm-girl at heart.
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PaleoPhil,
I say you get to the bottom of this mystery and inquire directly to Really Raw about their fermentation technique. That, or find a way to understand this through the cultures in Africa that fermented honey.
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Good thoughts, thanks. I did find a snippet about Maasai mead, which is probably a similar technique, but not a thorough description.
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I doubt this information could be withheld from the public under the guise of "trade secret".
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I doubt this information could be withheld from the public under the guise of "trade secret".
Nobody is calling it a trade secret; rather, fermented honey is considered spoilage by many beekeepers. Google returns 2 million hits on "fermented honey" - combing through a few, they look like this one:
http://gobeekeeping.com/lesson%20seven.htm (http://gobeekeeping.com/lesson%20seven.htm)
Honey is hydroscopic which means that honey will absorb moisture. If the moisture content of honey exceeds 18.6%, honey will tend to ferment. The fermentation yeast in the honey will turn the sugars of the honey into alcohol. This causes honey to have a sour taste. It is recommended that if honey is to be stored for any length of time, it should have a moisture content of around 17%. The honey yeast are not able to grow at cool temperatures. So if honey is stored at below 50 degrees F., the yeast will not grow and are not able to grow and cause fermentation. Fermented honey can be fed back to the bees but it is unfit for human consumption. Honey can be frozen and that is a good way to keep honey for long periods of time. The optimum temperature for honey fermentation is above 80 degrees F.
~OR~ they lead to reallyrawhoney or mead.
Honey doesn't readily ferment like cabbage. I've never gotten a batch of kimchi that refused to ferment, no matter what the temperature. Honey is plain picky.
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Fermented honey can be feed back to the bees but it is unfit for human consumption.
Pasteurized honey is physically sickening to me. I must be a bee, nope, checked...I am human. Who the heck says fermented honey can't be eaten by humans? I've gotten unheated honey at a big discount in the healthfood store because it had a date stamp on it that said it would spoil in one year, and the honey was perfect, I'm glad I asked if I could buy it. Hey, wasn't honey one of the foods that can stay good thousands of years in a castle or tomb? Seeds are the other I know of. Maybe fermented honey is so good that they have to scare us away from it.
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I’ll definitely be updating the blog with any news on the outcome.
There's no blog "Steve80" Pak20
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There's no blog "Steve80" Pak20
It was spam.
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Fermented honey can be fed back to the bees but it is unfit for human consumption. Honey can be frozen and that is a good way to keep honey for long periods of time.
LOL, Thanks for that quote, Eveheart. What ignorance. Fermented honey is not only NOT unfit, it's the best honey of all; and freezing isn't necessary at all--honey is the only food I'm aware of that can be stored for thousands of years without going bad (and fermenting is not going bad). Honey fermentation is clearly largely a lost art in the modern world. Thank heavens Really Raw is keeping it alive in the USA.
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LOL, Thanks for that quote, Eveheart. What ignorance. Fermented honey is not only NOT unfit, it's the best honey of all; and freezing isn't necessary at all--honey is the only food I'm aware of that can be stored for thousands of years without going bad (and fermenting is not going bad). Honey fermentation is clearly largely a lost art in the modern world. Thank heavens Really Raw is keeping it alive in the USA.
Speaking of honey, I've been eating Honey Pacifica's chunky cold-packed honey this week. It's delicious. I think I'm going to order some more fermented Really Raw honey next.
I found a beekeeper in Portland that will mail me an entire frame of honeycomb, untouched/uncleaned. I might get that next.
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I wonder if honey needs some moisture + some sort of starter to get it fermenting? I wonder what would happen if I mixed in a little liquid from one of my other ferments (like sauerkraut or something)?
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Honey ferments without starter. It only needs moisture, such as a lot of moisture in the air when the beekeepers are collecting the honey. Really Raw Honey says, "You can actually do it yourself by dipping a wet spoon into a jar of raw honey! The honey can also ferment if it is exposed to heat. We have jars that ferment when shipped long distances in the summer time or stored in a hot place."
Really Raw Honey has delicious fermented honey. For me, it's not worth the hassle of trying to get the right conditions (without a hygrometer and something for temperature control), but I have had good aged honey end up fermenting by accident. Sauerkraut juice in honey might make an interesting experiment, but YOU do it, not I. LOL
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Eveheart is correct. As with sauerkraut, honey doesn't need a starter to ferment. Starters are not used with the sauerkraut or the fermented honey I buy, according to the sellers of the products.
Starters are used in modern fermentation because they assure fermentation, shorten the time to ferment and are believed to produce more consistent results important for mass production. The resulting product is cheaper and more rapidly produced, but I have tasted both modern sauerkraut and traditional sauerkraut and I find the latter is far superior in taste.
Another shortcut that's used is to add an-already fermented pasteurized product, such as grain vinegar, and just pickle the food. This is done with sushi (which means vinegared rice), whereas the predecessor of sushi was raw semi-naturally fermented rice such as red yeast rice (rice fermented with a mold http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_yeast_rice (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_yeast_rice)).
Contemporary Japanese sushi has little resemblance to the traditional lacto-fermented rice dish. Originally, when the fermented fish was taken out of the rice, only the fish was consumed and the fermented rice was discarded.[3]The strong-tasting and smelling funazushi, a kind of narezushi made near Lake Biwa in Japan, resembles the traditional fermented dish. Beginning in the Muromachi period (AD 1336–1573) of Japan, vinegar was added to the mixture for better taste and preservation.
The vinegaring shortcut is also often done with sauerkraut and other pickled veggies. Here's an excellent write-up on the topic from the producers of one of the fermented veggie brands I buy:
Modern pickling methods, including use of vinegar (usually in place of fermentation) and pasteurization, produce a uniform, shelf stable product suitable to the needs of the large food corporations. Unfortunately, modern pickles do not offer the authentic flavor or health-promoting qualities of traditional pickles.
How it works
Lactic acid fermentation relies on beneficial cultures - similar to those used to make yogurt or sourdough bread - to break down natural sugars in the vegetables and produce a variety of healthful substances, primarily lactic acid.
The process begins with fresh, nutrient-rich vegetables, naturally bearing lactic acid cultures on their surfaces (making starters or innoculants unnecessary). http://www.realpickles.com/process.html (http://www.realpickles.com/process.html)
Here's the fermented honey seller's write-up:
Moisture and warmth produce fermentation. When the moisture level of the honey is slightly elevated and the temperature is warm, fermentation may occur, due to the enzymes and the yeast in honey. Two main reasons for heating honey in modern times are to stop fermentation and be able to strain it. But fermentation is not harmful. Some people believe that it is more effective for digestion than honey that is not fermented, but we have not seen any documentation to either prove or disprove this theory.
http://www.reallyrawhoney.com/category_s/44.htm (http://www.reallyrawhoney.com/category_s/44.htm)
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Interesting!
Maybe I'll buy some of the already-fermented honey and see how I like it, before trying to make my own. It does sound yummy!
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I attempted at fermenting honey. I accidentally put to much water, so it's more liquidy than I'd like.
But I left it in the sun and it's making bubbles.
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came across this thread and found it interesting since i've recently started fermenting food & drink. spent a few hours searching the internet and found this http://www.pickl-it.com/blog/562/creamed-honey-recipe/ (http://www.pickl-it.com/blog/562/creamed-honey-recipe/) i know it says creamed honey but it is made using a fermentation airlock and talks about the honey fermenting and releasing gasses. i am thinking that not all creamed honey is fermented but fermented honey is creamed. i tried to find a picture of Real Raw Honey's fermented honey but had no luck there. since there are multiple people in the thread that expressed interest in fermented honey i thought i would share. i think if you already have some fermented honey you could use that as a starter to ferment some more. also i've been thinking about the math to try to ferment it without any type of starter. since honey is already around 17%-18% water you only need to increase it 2%-3%, so for two cups of honey i am thinking you would only need to add 1 Tbs of water to bring it up around 20%. next time i pick up some raw honey i will have to try it out. if you want to try on a smaller scale it would be 2/3 c honey and 1 tsp water.
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Not all fermented honey is creamed, though the fermented honeys that are sold will tend to be made from high-glucose honeys that otherwise would become very thick/creamy. Totally liquid honey, saps and nectars can ferment, just not as easily.
Creamed honeys are easier to ferment, not because they're creamed, but because in order to become creamy (thick) over time, they must be high in glucose, and glucose ferments more readily (thus, fermented honeys have a higher fructose/glucose ratio than unfermented, and they also tend to be more liquidy than the unfermented original honey).
Real Raw's unfermented honey is creamy and quite firm, but their fermented honey is quite soft and becomes even more liquidy over time as it slowly ferments further.
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My method is a cup of water with a quarter of a cup of honey in a jar shaken until the honey dissolves. One jar is fizzy and bubbly like soda and delicious with no alcohol taste or smell, the other bland with a raw egg white consistency. Dariorpl was right about stirring the jar frequently to encourage yeast and prevent mold.
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I put some crystallized honey in a yogurt maker (a device which warms your jars).
I remove it a few hours later, and it's liquid.
I will see if it shows any visible signs of fermentation later on.
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I was given a jar of local honey for Christmas. Upon closer inspection at home it looked like it was solidifying so I decided to put the jar in some lukewarm water to make it turn liquid again. When I twisted opened the jar it popped at me and I saw a slight foam on top of the honey. I thought it might have fermented so I tasted it. OMG how tasty it is. I took a spoon of it to eat and put the jar in the warm water bath. When I returned for a second table spoonful 5 min later I decided to not heat it up for fear I would ruin its lovely taste. I want to replicate this and make more. “Regular” honey will never be my first choice any more. I have no idea what the water content is for the honey or where it had been kept before being gifted to me. Any advice on how to care for this prize possession or how to duplicate it with another jar of raw honey?