Paleo Diet: Raw Paleo Diet and Lifestyle Forum
Raw Paleo Diet Forums => General Discussion => Important Info for Newbies => Topic started by: TylerDurden on October 03, 2008, 01:08:24 am
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Dairy has only been consumed for the last 9,000 years or so, which is far too short a period in our evolution for us to fully adapt to it. As a direct result, many people experience severe health-problems with dairy:-
First of all, it's well-known that 75% of the world's population are lactose-intolerant to some extent, with at least 3% casein-intolerant, with malabsoprtion of dairy being a common occurrence:-
http://www.foodintol.com/dairy.asp (http://www.foodintol.com/dairy.asp)
There have been one or two international studies directly linking dairy-consumption to much higher rates of osteoporosis, with other studies showing no benefit of dairy-consumption as regards healing of hip-fractures etc. - giving the lie to the notion that calcium-rich dairy builds strong bones:-
http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/full/70/2/301A (http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/full/70/2/301A)
A useful site re the link between higher rates of osteoporosis and dairy-consumption can be found here:-
http://www.youngerthanyourage.com/4/ExcessiveCalcium.htm (http://www.youngerthanyourage.com/4/ExcessiveCalcium.htm)
Dairy-consumption has also been linked to much higher rates of heart-disease:-
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9727089?dopt=Abstract (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9727089?dopt=Abstract)
http://aje.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/149/2/151 (http://aje.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/149/2/151)
and prostate-cancer, among other types of cancer:-
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10383480?dopt=Abstract (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10383480?dopt=Abstract)
http://www.youngerthanyourage.com/13/cancer2.htm (http://www.youngerthanyourage.com/13/cancer2.htm)
http://www.urotoday.com/browse_categories/male_infertility/high_dairy_product_intake_associated_with_an_increased_testicular_cancer_risk.html (http://www.urotoday.com/browse_categories/male_infertility/high_dairy_product_intake_associated_with_an_increased_testicular_cancer_risk.html)
Dairy-consumption has also been directly linked to increased rates of dementia, depression and strokes in the elderly, due to the excess calcium in dairy:-
http://news.sawf.org/Health/37084.aspx (http://news.sawf.org/Health/37084.aspx)
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/05/070501115230.htm (http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/05/070501115230.htm)
Dairy has also been linked to schizophrenia and autism:-
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed&Cmd=ShowDetailView&TermToSearch=15123503&ordinalpos=4&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed&Cmd=ShowDetailView&TermToSearch=15123503&ordinalpos=4&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum)
http://paleodiet.com/autism/ (http://paleodiet.com/autism/)
Dairy, along with grains, is also heavily implicated in the rise in the incidence of autoimmune diseases such as multiple sclerosis and rheumatoid arthritis:-
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?db=pubmed&uid=1291895&cmd=showdetailview&indexed=google (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?db=pubmed&uid=1291895&cmd=showdetailview&indexed=google)
http://paleodiet.com/ms/ (http://paleodiet.com/ms/)
http://paleodiet.com/ra/ (http://paleodiet.com/ra/)
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1505908 (http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1505908)
Then there's the issue of the extremely lopsided Calcium:Magnesium ratio of dairy(c.12:1). In Palaeolithic times, the caveman diet had a calcium:magnesium ratio was only c. 1:1 - but our modern dairy-filled diet has on average a 4:1 Calcium:Magnesium ratio which is most unhealthy, as excessive calcium in the diet(above 1:1) ends up blocking the intake of magnesium into the body, thus leading to magnesium-deficiency:-
http://www.paleodiet.com/losspts.txt (http://www.paleodiet.com/losspts.txt)
Since magnesium is an essential component of the human body, a lack of magnesium leads onto various minor to major health-problems:-
http://www.ctds.info/5_13_magnesium.html (http://www.ctds.info/5_13_magnesium.html)
http://www.ctds.info/magnesium.html (http://www.ctds.info/magnesium.html)
There are also serious concerns about the dangerous effects of all the hormones in dairy:-
http://www.news.harvard.edu/gazette/2006/12.07/11-dairy.html (http://www.news.harvard.edu/gazette/2006/12.07/11-dairy.html)
There is particular concern about the link between dairy-consumption and a higher rate of male reproductive disorders, due to the large amounts of the female hormone oestrogen , present in cows' milk:-
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=11601881 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=11601881)
Dairy has also been linked to a higher rate of Parkinson's Disease:-
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed&Cmd=ShowDetailView&TermToSearch=17272289&ordinalpos=49&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed&Cmd=ShowDetailView&TermToSearch=17272289&ordinalpos=49&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum)
Another factor to consider is the amount of harmful opioids present in dairy(and grains and processed foods). It's a well-known fact that such opioids are highly addictive, and it is no coincidence that food-manufacturers routinely use them in processed foods:-
http://www.karlloren.com/diet/p18.htm (http://www.karlloren.com/diet/p18.htm)
http://www.forgoodnesssake123.com/Glues.html (http://www.forgoodnesssake123.com/Glues.html)
Lastly, it's also well-known that lactose a major nutritional component of dairy, if consumed in appreciable amounts, inhibits the absorption of copper into the human body, thus potentially causing problems re increased rates of heart-disease in later life:-
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3357459 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3357459)
On an anecdotal level, it should be noted that large numbers of raw-meat-diet-beginners tend to make the mistake of consuming large quantities of raw dairy at first, as it's an easier raw animal food to get used to than raw meat, say. This inevitably leads, over time, to long-term problems such as magnesium-deficiency(indeed a number of long-term heavy consumers of raw dairy (eg:- Primal Dieters) have openly admitted that they take artificial magnesium supplements in order to make up for the excessive calcium-rich dairy in their diets. And also those allergic to dairy tend to get artificial, powerful cravings for raw dairy, and often lose their taste for healthier raw animal food such as raw meats/organ-meats. Even worse, some Raw-Animal-Foodists choose to ignore the serious health-problems caused by their body's reaction to the harmful raw dairy and try to pretend they're merely experiencing an endless series of "detoxes" and that raw dairy is a supposedly excellent detoxing food. Nothing could be further from the truth.
*It should be noted that many of those Raw-Animal-Foodists who consume raw dairy often claim that eating raw dairy, as opposed to pasteurised dairy will automatically resolve any health-problems incurred from eating pasteurised dairy, whether due to allergies or whatever. They also tend to recommend all sorts of mystic preparations such as only eating raw dairy at room-temperature, mixing raw dairy with honey or only eating A2-protein dairy etc., but invariably none of these methods work to any genuine extent for those with allergies towards raw dairy. Plus, they often tend to claim that it's impossible to experience a(lactose-intolerance-related) allergy towards raw dairy(or sometimes just towards raw butter), despite the various accounts from people who've experienced lactose-intolerance etc. towards raw butter etc. Unfortunately, many of the harmful aspects of dairy, such as the opioids and the excessive amounts of calcium in dairy, are as prevalent in raw dairy as in pasteurised dairy, so this is not a convincing argument at all. In short, while it's generally the case that consuming raw dairy causes fewer problems, overall, than consuming pasteurised dairy, side-effects and health-problems related to raw-dairy-consumption are the most frequent problems faced by Raw-Animal-Foodists when they first start going raw. Problems with veggie-juice and raw eggs are merely secondary in frequency to raw dairy, in that regard.*
Oh, here is a scientific study showing the link between cataracts in old age and consumption of dairy, with galactose being a problem rather than lactose per se.
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Thank you for this information.
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I just noticed this thread.
Just to be clear, what Tyler says is true in the strictest sense. Dairy can be anything from a chronic irritant for long time consumers, to a danger in the short term for some.
We should all be aware of this.
The reason very simply is that dairy is generally difficult to digest and it can be very difficult to digest for some people and the undigested dairy may find it's way into the body through the osmotic barrier in the intestines into the blood and so on.
However, this is true for every food, whether cooked, raw or whatever. If you eat foods that are inappropriate regardless of whether they are touted by the experts or your friends or the people on this site, you are on your own. Pay attention to what you eat. If it causes issues then consider giving it up for awhile to see if the issues go away. Two weeks or a month for foods that you eat regularly is a good test.
Some people for instance will find garlic as a life saver, and I am led to believe, there is plenty of science to back it up, but for some it is pure poison.
Bottom line is that advice to eat/not to eat any particular food must be taken lightly. Even foods that you may like, may be indeed what you need to eat, but to get in a habit of eating something even when you lose the taste for it, is asking for trouble.
Typically dairy will cause issues like upper respiratory tract infections (like colds) blocked sinuses, lethargy, back problems (which may be prostate issues in hiding) prostate issues and issues associated with fluid buildup or oedema. Then these promonitory symptoms may degrade into other issues.
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which of these studies (if any) used raw rather than pasteurized dairy to reach their conclusions?
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which of these studies (if any) used raw rather than pasteurized dairy to reach their conclusions?
Hey man! Welcome back. The answer is probably none.
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which of these studies (if any) used raw rather than pasteurized dairy to reach their conclusions?
This is irrelevant since many of the studies focus on the harm done by excess calcium or hormones, both of which are present in raw dairy as well as pasteurised dairy.
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This is irrelevant since many of the studies focus on the harm done by excess calcium or hormones, both of which are present in raw dairy as well as pasteurised dairy.
In regards to the calcium, it's likely it was done on feed lot milk which is very low in Vitamin K2. Pastured raw milk is generally very high in Vitamin K2, which helps direct the calcium where it needs to go. Supposing there's sufficient Vitamin K1 being consumed along with the raw milk, it would prevent the calcification of soft tissues. Still doesn't address the imbalance of mag and cal though.
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9'000 years? Is that qualified somewhere?
When will folks get it into their skulls that modern dairy, even 100% Grass fed is NOT the same as old school, heirloom, wild-crafted dairy. The molecules matter, the genetics matter and for people like you who know better Ty, it is downright misleading for you to attempt to apply a bunch of bullshit studies to old school milk consumption. There are just too many variable for that to be a credible statement. The only substance that the bulk of your studies indict, is modern dairy, and probably mostly hormone and antibiotic laden, pasteurised and homogenized, which is serious weak sauce and kind of embarrassing....
But you are not personally biased based on your outlying past experiences right Ty? Bahahahahaha ;p
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You think that with proper amounts of k2 your body can't adequately and healthfully resolve alleged issues of cal/mag?
Why am I the only one that recognizes the sheer majesty of our illustrious history of evolution? We are some of the baddest ass wet machines around, and our optimization systems are crazy adaptable GIVEN SUFFICIENT molecularly intact inputs, ie raw foods, especially raw animal foods, and clean, groundwater.
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You think that with proper amounts of k2 your body can't adequately and healthfully resolve alleged issues of cal/mag?
Not necessarily. The body needs magnesium and calcium, both should be consumed in relatively even amounts. Milk is a relatively poor source of magnesium, and there aren't many animal foods that are very high in magnesium. A lot of RAF'ers choose to eat minimal amounts of plant foods.
One cup of milk has 276 mg of calcium - http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/dairy-and-egg-products/69/2 (http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/dairy-and-egg-products/69/2)
To compare, shell fish which has often been touted as being a magnesium power house has 39.5 mg magnesium per 6 medium shell fish - http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/finfish-and-shellfish-products/4189/2 (http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/finfish-and-shellfish-products/4189/2)
Most animal foods aren't very high in magnesium. But assuming you were to consume equal amounts of calcium to magnesium from just those two foods, you'd need about 41 medium shell fish for every 1 cup of milk to get a 1:1 ratio (the ratio that many think we evolved consuming). That sounds like a lot of shell fish.
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9'000 years? Is that qualified somewhere?
Regular milk consumption is Neolithic. You need domestic animals and pottery to collect significant amounts of milk.
When will folks get it into their skulls that modern dairy, even 100% Grass fed is NOT the same as old school, heirloom, wild-crafted dairy.
Yeah… milk from zebras, gazelle, elephants, wild boars, tigers or badgers. Tell us when you get some. ;)
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Yeah… milk from zebras, gazelle, elephants, wild boars, tigers or badgers. Tell us when you get some. ;)
First you get fast...
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Even "pristine" dairy from wild sources will have problems inherent for humans since they too contain hormones and excess calcium etc. which can harm humans. Indeed, a lot of milk from wild animals such as wolves contains far too much casein, for example, so is fatal for humans to drink long-term. Simply put, all mothers' milk is designed to help only the members of one particular species to get properly fed until weaning.
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Simply out, all mothers' milk is designed to help only the members of one particular species to get properly fed until weaning.
Omg.. Another typo - "simply out." lol
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ROFLMAO....... oops sorry, couldn't resist..... I'll go to HE double hockey stick for that.
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Well, at least I correct most of my typos. This is one rare exception which I missed.
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Just having a bit of fun. I usually catch mine but occasionally I am too quick off the mark.
It is a bit frustrating if someone who should know better misses them. Totally blows me away that some posters from a foreign language background don't make more. Very impressed.
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Just having a bit of fun. I usually catch mine but occasionally I am to quick off the mark.
It is a bit frustrating if someone who should know better misses them. Totally blows me away that some posters from a foreign language background don't make more. Very impressed.
whoops, you missed one, can you find it?
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Yeah......... Scratch one up for ya. LOL
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Guess I was two qwik uff the marc
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I should post all those studies to the Primal FB page, but alas, all that the AV faithful will do, is point out that they were not Raw milk studies.
A lot of Primal dieters hate it when someone points out that you do not need Raw milk as part of a healing diet, and most wont even consider that many within their own group are having severe dairy intolerance issues, which are written off as detox reactions.
There is just no convincing some people.
From a Paleolithic perspective it should be obvious that milk was designed to feed an offspring only until weaning age. The mineral balance, vitamin levels and hormones contained in milk were not designed for adult animals of other species to consume. Though there has been some level of adaption, which allows for some people to tolerate Raw milk into adulthood, it still is a suspect food for anyone who is consuming it and still has issues.
What myself and the many other Dairy Bashers are saying is broad and I know wont apply to everyone, but the main point I would like to make regarding dairy, is.... That if you consume it and suffer no ill effects whatsoever, and consider yourself to be in perfect health, then you have my blessing... But if you insist that everyone else in the human race is capable of doing the same, then you are mistaken. My own personal experience, the experience of people within my own community along with many others on the forum, are all testaments to the negative effects of drinking Raw Dairy.
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Daboss, you really think it's difficult to get mg from animal foods? Have you really thought that out?
Iguana can you think of another sense 'wildcrafted' might be used?
Saber, of course dairy is not for you if your body is demonstrating it cannot tolerate it..
Folks, none of your comments have explained how a bunch of studies on molecularly warped dairy can apply to molecularly intact dairy...please try again...that is the only point im asserting here, I KNOW dairy, even raw, heritage, wildcrafted is not for everybody, and maybe not even for most, but we still have to make accurate claims in we are going to want people to take us seriously, even though they are sheep-tools..
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Daboss, you really think it's difficult to get mg from animal foods? Have you really thought that out?
Yes, I can't find legitimate high potency sources of magnesium from animal foods like I can for Vitamin A (liver), CoQ10 (heart), etc. Even the Weston Price Foundation doesn't make mention of any high potency animal foods - http://www.westonaprice.org/vitamins-and-minerals/magnificent-magnesium (http://www.westonaprice.org/vitamins-and-minerals/magnificent-magnesium)
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Iguana can you think of another sense 'wildcrafted' might be used?
I suppose you are using the old, hoary argument used by pro-raw dairy advocates as a last resort, that if only those allergic to raw dairy were to drink the finest raw dairy from domesticated animals fed only on wild grasses/herbs in the most pristine Apline meadows , they would supposedly all benefit and no longer suffer from drinking raw dairy. This b*llsh*t has been peddled for years and is absolute nonsense, given anecdotal reports.
Folks, none of your comments have explained how a bunch of studies on molecularly warped dairy can apply to molecularly intact dairy...please try again...that is the only point im asserting here, I KNOW dairy, even raw, heritage, wildcrafted is not for everybody, and maybe not even for most, but we still have to make accurate claims in we are going to want people to take us seriously, even though they are sheep-tools..
Again, you are as usual missing the point. Pasteurisation is a short, quick process and does not change absolutely all the ingredients in dairy. It kills the enzymes and bacteria, granted.Pasteurisation also likely alters the composition of fats. But calcium in pasteurised dairy is just like calcium in raw dairy and an excess of calcium has been shown by numerous scientific studies to be harmful. if you doubt that please provide some scientific evidence showing that calcium in dairy becomes something else (trans-calcium?!!!!) after being pasteurised. Similiarly, hormones in raw dairy are a problem even when raw, as there are oestrogens in it. Come to think of it, since pasteurisation likely harms the composition of hormones, raw is likely worse.
Another good argument against raw dairy is the ease in which it transmits diseases. That is why every so often one hears of people getting infected after consuming the stuff.
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Saber, of course dairy is not for you if your body is demonstrating it cannot tolerate it..
Folks, none of your comments have explained how a bunch of studies on molecularly warped dairy can apply to molecularly intact dairy...please try again...that is the only point im asserting here, I KNOW dairy, even raw, heritage, wildcrafted is not for everybody, and maybe not even for most, but we still have to make accurate claims in we are going to want people to take us seriously, even though they are sheep-tools..
Personal experience, trumps any kind of raw milk study you may be imagining. The fact is that personal experiences are indeed accurate claims, that are worthy of consideration. Many of us have used Raw dairy from the most pristine of sources, and have not been able to tolerate it. There is evidence that suggest that the high calcium and hormones levels in raw dairy, meant to build bones, and increase overall growth in young animals, is detrimental to mature animals of other species.
So As an anti dairy advocate, I place the burden of proof on those who disagree. If the issues cannot be addressed more fully then there can be no agreements between the two sides! Though, I do believe that this discourse could be useful to others who may be considering for themselves if Raw Dairy is for them personally.
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The fact is that personal experiences are indeed actuate claims
Bwahahah. Actuate claims
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"actuate claims" although a typo does have actual meaning.
The sentence meaning that the claims based on personal experience are motivational.
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Regular milk consumption is Neolithic. You need domestic animals and pottery to collect significant amounts of milk.
Yeah… milk from zebras, gazelle, elephants, wild boars, tigers or badgers. Tell us when you get some. ;)
AHA, so I guess that means anyone eating food more than 10 miles from where they live is against the Paleo code also. That includes most fish as it comes from the ocean. These arguments are so old. This thread is old.
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AHA, so I guess that means anyone eating food more than 10 miles from where they live is against the Paleo code also.
Especially as Paleolithic tribes did not live in one place but were nomadic and spread around entire continents… ;D
I fail to understand your reasoning.
That includes most fish as it comes from the ocean. These arguments are so old. This thread is old.
Yeah, you always come back with the same groundless belief without taking account of the answers repeatedly given.
Fish consumption by mammals, including hominids, has occurred during several millions years and became very common since the invention of harpoons and hooks, 150,000 years ago at least. There not more difference between an ocean fish such a tuna and a coastal fish or even a river fish then between zebra and reindeer meat. It’s the same category of foods (fish), as an apple is of the same category (fruit) as a guava.
On the contrary, milk is a distinctive category of food, meant for youngsters of the specific species. Regular milk consumption of other animal species by humans, including adults is an extremely recent phenomenon, 8000 years for the most ancient cases and is not even generalized yet!
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Especially as Paleolithic tribes did not live in one place but were nomadic and spread around entire continents… ;D
Nice try Iguana. Tribes did not individually wander around entire continents.
If someone walked all day in a straight line @ 3.1 MPH, in 8 hours they would do 24.8 miles thus 161.3 days to do Vancouver Canada to the coast of Labrador. This would be without dragging food, clothing camping gear, children, cell phones, iPads, ;) in all kinds of weather.
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I fail to understand your reasoning. Yeah, you always come back with the same groundless belief without taking account of the answers repeatedly given.
Ditto
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Nice try Iguana. Tribes did not individually wander around entire continents.
I did not mean individually, of course.
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I did not mean individually, of course.
Exactly my point. Eating a diet that includes foods out side of a very narrow window, which turns out to be probably ten miles would be ridiculous for a tribe. No doubt some wandered further afield and lots such as the Inuit in Labrador did a circuit that took the year to do, but it wasn't that far as they were no more interested in walking endlessly than you would be. These circuits took in foods that would be seasonally apropos such as berries and fruit and possibly small amounts of grain in the summer and meats in the other seasons.
All you have to have is one smart guy in a tribe watch a wild animal (or his female mate with a baby) drink from the breast and he gets the idea. Then he talks about it. Then another guy in the tribe who is good with animals (has that Siddhi) has a wild animal close by and shares in the milk from an animal.
My Tibetan friend lived in Tibet before there was cars. As a child he recalls children out playing and then running over and grabbing the teat of a yak and drinking.
My June 2013 edition of Pro Pilot (page 36) shows a picture of a guy sitting down next to a tiger in a Buddhist Monastery in Thailand. How does that fit into your paradyme? According to the Yoga Sutras of Patanjali circa 100 to 200 BCE this is all quite easy to understand. It says roughly that in the presence of Yog (an enlightened sage) all violence will cease. The tiger will sit down with the horse and the cobra will sit down with the mongoose (These are mortal enemies) In a Buddhist monastery there is a high likelihood of there being en enlightened sage or more. In India these PPL are looked after by townspeople as they see the value in having this pacifying influence on an area. (less crime/violence. So much for the theory that you cannot approach wild animals.
How would you be able to say that no one did this many thousands of years ago? You couldn't, because how would you prove it? Your assumptions are the same ridiculous assumptions that make historians a curious group of PPL who like to sound like they know what they are preaching about so their students will be impressed by their intellectual prowess.
The history of archeology is littered with the silly theories of 'experts'.
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All you have to have is one smart guy in a tribe watch a wild animal (or his female mate with a baby) drink from the breast and he gets the idea. Then he talks about it. Then another guy in the tribe who is good with animals (has that Siddhi) has a wild animal close by and shares in the milk from an animal.
Doesn’t it sound to you like a fairy tale for lacto-vegetarians youngsters? I fail to see how men could one day hunt and kill animals to eat their flesh and another day approach them gently to the point of letting a lactating female drink her milk… Because once an animal species gets hunted in an area, they all start to fear humans and run away from us as fast as they can.
My Tibetan friend lived in Tibet before there was cars. As a child he recalls children out playing and then running over and grabbing the teat of a yak and drinking.
Most yaks are domestic. Was it wild ones? And are wild ones really savage?
My June 2013 edition of Pro Pilot (page 36) shows a picture of a guy sitting down next to a tiger in a Buddhist Monastery in Thailand. How does that fit into your paradyme? According to the Yoga Sutras of Patanjali circa 100 to 200 BCE this is all quite easy to understand. It says roughly that in the presence of Yog (an enlightened sage) all violence will cease. The tiger will sit down with the horse and the cobra will sit down with the mongoose (These are mortal enemies) In a Buddhist monastery there is a high likelihood of there being en enlightened sage or more. In India these PPL are looked after by townspeople as they see the value in having this pacifying influence on an area. (less crime/violence. So much for the theory that you cannot approach wild animals.
Buddhist monks are not hunters; Buddhism and yoga are recent things, devised by civilized and mainly vegetarians people. Anyway, such stories are at best anecdotal and not representative at all of the common reality.
How would you be able to say that no one did this many thousands of years ago? You couldn't, because how would you prove it?
First, it would be fine to know if those weird stories have been undoubtedly documented in present times! And what would be the point anyway if it was perhaps done “many thousand years ago” by civilized lacto-vegetarians? Men mastered the fire about 350,000 or 400,000 years ago and possibly some started to grill food soon afterwards. This doesn’t mean grilled food is harmless.
Your assumptions are the same ridiculous assumptions that make historians a curious group of PPL who like to sound like they know what they are preaching about so their students will be impressed by their intellectual prowess.
The history of archeology is littered with the silly theories of 'experts'.
Feel free to challenge the whole current mainstream ideas about history and prehistory and rewrite it in a “non ridiculous”, intelligent way!
Cheers
François
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I fail to understand your reasoning. Yeah, you always come back with the same groundless belief without taking account of the answers repeatedly given.
Ditto
Please note that after following the discussions on this forum, I modified my idea about milk consumption in the Paleolithic era. I thought there was no way to get any single drop of milk form a wild animal, dead or alive, but Miles posted a video where a little bit of milk seeps from a dead deer and PaleoPhil posted some stories which tend to show that a little bit of milk can be occasionally found in dead females. This is alike to the fact that sometimes, although rarely, food grilled or roasted can be found in nature after a forest fire or a volcanic eruption.
I also changed drastically my stance about raw dairy in 1987. Before, I consumed a lot of dairy, preferably raw, but when presented with the evidence and logical inferences, I decided to experiment the instinctotherapy / raw paleo nutrition and suppressed totally all dairy from my diet.
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Buddhist monks are not hunters; Buddhism and yoga are recent things, devised by civilized and mainly vegetarians people. Anyway, such stories are at best anecdotal and not representative at all of the common reality.
Sorry to burst your bubble but the Dalai Lama is non a vege and indeed when he became one upon moving to India as a bow to his Indian hosts, he became sick after awhile and was advised by his physicians that he needed meat.
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If you want milk from a wild animal which is lactating, kill it before the baby has awaken and emptied her milk sac. If you've owned and milked animals, you'll understand this completely.
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If you want milk from a wild animal which is lactating, kill it before the baby has awaken and emptied her milk sac. If you've owned and milked animals, you'll understand this completely.
Actually as I am sure you are well aware VAn the very first milk from an lactating animal called collostreum is incredibly powerful stuff.
I heard a story, no idea if it is really true, but Rockefella (the oil guy) worked himself into a state of bad health at one point in his life, to the point where he was at death's door. At the time, one therapy touted by Doctors, was mother's milk. So he consumed milk expressed or pumped from a wet nurse.
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Sorry to burst your bubble but the Dalai Lama is non a vege and indeed when he became one upon moving to India as a bow to his Indian hosts, he became sick after awhile and was advised by his physicians that he needed meat.
Don’t worry, Al, you do not burst anything: I wrote “mainly vegetarians”. I very well know that they are not all strict vegetarians. My ex-wife is Buddhist and she eats meat sometimes.
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Even Buddha as a young man, wandered with the ascetic wild men, whom legend has it, lived as foragers and ate raw meat.
When my Babys mommy was full of milk, I would occasionally nurse some of the excess. It was very good and I seemed to do well on it, though it wasn't a consistent practice.
Sometimes, if I drank a lot I would notice a laxative effect, but it in no way had the other negative effects of Raw animal dairy.
I could imagine that some paleo men at some point in history would take some milk from the tit of his mate.
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ST,
I tried that when my ex was nursing our two. Funnily enough I did not like it at all. She wasn't that healthy herself and her diet was about one hook up from disgusting.
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Yeah the taste changes with diet.
After she would eat bland more pure foods like rice she would swell with milk and it would be sweet and good. Other times if she was eating a lot more processed junk foods it would taste bad.
If she would drink cows milk or too much wheat, it would cause the babies to get gassy. So she lowered her wheat consumption and switched to coconut milk and after that the milk tasted much better, without the gassy baby side effects.
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Interesting. I know a girl who is actually quite careful of what she eats and she drinks as much milk as she can stand. She doesn't like the taste at all and I tell her not to drink it because she is obviously not doing well on it. She is nursing 2 girls.
She is getting obvious Kapha reactions with colds, runny nose, etc.
I understand why she thinks it is a good idea but.... it ain't.
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hehe... I just have to say.. I LOVE you guys! LOL this whole page is full of stuff.. very cool stuff ;D
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I can only speak of my own experience drinking plenty of raw milk over the last 15 years. I was severely allergic (lactose intolerant) to pasteurized milk, and so I had stopped consuming milk and all dairy products. But when I had raw milk and other raw dairy it was a completely different kind of animal- digested beautifully. I'm not saying it's for everyone, but listening to this debate I do get the sense there's a little bit of a power struggle or something about whether raw milk is "good" or not. I say were all in this together trying to figure out what works and doesn't work- so I say lets all try to remain open minded and not attached to a particular belief about something. And I include myself on this as well.
But listen, if your going to say things about raw milk not being good, then it seems reasonable to me that you must cite studies on raw milk, not pasteurized. Do we really know the full implications of what pasteurization, homogenization, standardization, antibiotics, hormones, conventional feed, blah blah blah does in regards to the health integrity of milk? I would venture to guess that we do not. I have heard for instance that calcium and other minerals are cauterized when exposed to high temperatures - this could be what's going on with the absorption or utilization problem with the calcium. I am not aware of this idea of needing a balance between magnesium or calcium - maybe theres something to that, i don't know. But what I can say is that I think raw milk and other raw dairy has been instrumental in my healing process. Actually, after I experienced how well raw milk digested I began to consider that maybe raw meat would digest well also. Just my 2 cents :)
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hehe... I just have to say.. I LOVE you guys! LOL this whole page is full of stuff.. very cool stuff ;D
Oh you are such the peace maker :)
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Oh you are such the peace maker..
I am appreciating your lightheartedness contribution :)
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Ahh, I am still learning how to post on a forum, forgive me :)
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A couple of issues:- first of all, pasteurisation involves temperatures below boiling so does not involve really high temperatures, so hormones/calcium etc. would likely be unaffected. On the other hand, the animal fats in dairy would very easily be affected judging from the amounts of heat-created toxins found in even lightly pasteurised dairy.
Also, I have come across, on an anecdotal level, a number of raw animal foodists who have complained of magnesium-deficiency as a result of consuming too much calcium-rich raw dairy, so I do not even need a raw dairy study to confirm this.
Naturally, I wholly accept that some people need only to consume raw dairy, or, better still, raw(fresh or fermented) dairy from grassfed animals, and thrive on such yet do badly on pasteurised dairy. It is just that a large number of people exist who cannot handle either raw or pasteurised dairy at all.
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Tyler, even though I'm not a proponent of milk anymore, I will jump forward though and point out that even though pasteurization May not damage proteins etc... it certainly kills every living bacteria in the milk, including all or most enzymes. They were created for a purpose, and to forget that is a mistake in looking at a bigger picture of how milk is utilized by humans.
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There are different versions of pasteurization, but all involve pressurization and it is not considered done till the enzymes are broken down.
One of the problems with pasteurization is also that the milk is typically homogenized which further breaks the milk down into a poor version of the original.
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I'm sure we could look up some studies to see at what temp minerals begin to cauterize, but at the moment I cannot say. However, I do think pasteurization temps are very high relative to the temp out in nature. Therefore if anything I would be highly suspicious of what these temperatures would do to minerals such as calcium. Not to mention, as Van said, regarding the unknown implications of enzyme and bacteria destruction, and how they could serve a function in regards to calcium absorption as well. I know that enzymes and bacteria are known to work in helping us to utilize nutrients more effectively. Point being, I think raw milk is just too different from conventional milk to enable us to draw any kind of conclusive analysis.
I hear what your saying about the magnesium deficiency. I haven't personally heard about this being a problem specific to raw milk drinkers, however I have heard a lot of primal dieters eating raw pumpkin seeds for the magnesium. Anybody know what kind of symptoms a magnesium deficiency would cause? I'd like to be aware of what that would look like so I know to look out for it.
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There are different versions of pasteurization, but all involve pressurization and it is not considered done till the enzymes are broken down.
One of the problems with pasteurization is also that the milk is typically homogenized which further breaks the milk down into a poor version of the original.
I realized later that I could have continued.
The enzymes normally would assist in digestion so a food that is normally a bit difficult to digest has suddenly become even more difficult in addition to the homogenization which further inhibits digestion.
Also farmers know that the milk they produce will be pasteurized so they care less about the quality of the milk they sell. So if a cow is sick it will download bacteria into the milk and as far as the farmer is concerned 'no big deal' because it is going to be cooked anyways, so when you get Pas. milk it is very low grade milk possibly from a very sick cow.
Now all this does not mean that raw milk will be easy to digest or is somehow the perfect food for everyone, just that it is even more difficult for those who have difficulty digesting it in the first place.
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Raw milk does not cause magnesium deficiency - exactly the opposite - it have magnesium. Raw cheese can cause Mag deficiency because if you check nutritiondata.self.com cheese does not have magnesium - it seems it goes to whey - but whole milk have magnesium. Pumpkin seeds are useless for magnesium - there is no magnesium in soil so dont expect the pumpkin seeds to have it. Milk and animal foods are just more concentrated so have better chances to have minerals like magnesium. Raw Fermented milk products like kefir, home yogurt are much more healing that raw beef - beef does not have all amino acids. The only problem i see with raw milk is lactose - but this is taken care of when fermented. Raw cheese is not the complete food like raw milk because whey is removed - this is where sulphur amino acids are - in the whey - the body needs them to produce gluthathione. I doubt that there is someone on this earth who can digest raw beef but who cant digest raw kefir or raw youghurt - simply because they are predigested unlike beef unless beef is fermented in some kind.
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The above comment is incorrect. The whole point is that raw dairy has far too high a calcium:magnesium ratio. Since calcium in excess blocks the uptake of magnesium into the body, dairy, however raw, can in large quantities block magnesium-intake. No other foods have such a high calcium:magnesium ratio as dairy products. Pumpkin seeds are one of the few foods with a very high magnesium:calcium ratio.
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The true problem with cow milk is that first of all it contains 3 times more protein than human milk. This is too much protein for a child, and it explains why children fed on cow milk have livers and kidneys 30% bigger in volume than those of children fed on breast milk. Secondly, cow milk may have three times the amount of calcium than mothers milk, it also has 5 times the amount of phosphate, which binds to calcium in the intestinal track and prevents 2/3 of it to be absorbed. Which explains in part why the heavy dairy-drinking populations also have a high prevalence of osteoporosis.
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The true problem with cow milk is that first of all it contains 3 times more protein than human milk. This is too much protein for a child, and it explains why children fed on cow milk have livers and kidneys 30% bigger in volume than those of children fed on breast milk. Secondly, cow milk may have three times the amount of calcium than mothers milk, it also has 5 times the amount of phosphate, which binds to calcium in the intestinal track and prevents 2/3 of it to be absorbed. Which explains in part why the heavy dairy-drinking populations also have a high prevalence of osteoporosis.
JK,
Nice theory,
I have consumed dairy all my life. I had problems with pasteurized homogenized milk but no problems with raw. However the fact is that it depends on the person. I have strong digestion and can handle the milk although I do not drink a lot. Many PPL do not handle milk well and can have serious issues in some cases. But many PPL do fine with it.
However some PPL love and do fine with say onions and garlic. I get very sick if I consume them.
We are all different and that's just the way it is.
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Just a hunch, but perhaps those with larger than average livers/kidneys might do better on dairy, as a result? Such as the Inuit.
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Had some raw dairy some days ago, which I normally do not eat, and felt really bad, heavy and bloated for 2 days, with some stomach cramps. I will not do this again. I am quite sure that dairy, even raw, does not suit me. I feel slow in my mind after.
Today I started the day with meat, and some lard (which I do not do usually). Had some Jun (honey combucha) just after, and my energy levels are great. Dairy really slows me down and messes with my digestion.
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Just had some raw cheese with dinner, I personally find raw cheese far easier to digest than meat and I have a pretty damaged system.
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Well, I'm done with dairy.
I tried adding milk to my carnivore diet for some cheap protein/calories. All I got was gas and diarrhea.
I jumped though all sort of hoops to find raw milk, and the result was exactly the same!!!
I tried fermenting it but it didn't really work and just tasted weird.
Weird thing is I craved it, I really wanted it to work, but it's just not for me.
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Cravings are a common sign of being addicted to an allergen.
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Yeah, before the milk experiment i was eating a lot of yogurt and cheese, I craved those too. They didn't seem to cause any ill effects but now I'm really start to wonder, I'm gonna try zero dairy and see how I feel.
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Well, this dairy debate seems never come to an end.
People have many problems with it, other people thrive on it.
The only possible conclusion that I can make is : "Dairy food may vary considerably its effects because of source and the type (cheese, milk, kefir) and there are people who can tolerate it and other who can't."
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@theart
Agreed
More so than to otherwise base my views on what the average person in paleo times would have accomplished,
I am actually more in line with sv3rige who views domination as the main guiding principle that matters in nature.
I also see zero tangible evidence for evolution to exist in nature.
One thing that AV would bring up is that what appears in a vacuum artificially like pasteurized dairy, is not always the same case in practice with for example something like raw dairy.
Accounts of issues and success relating to raw dairy* are far more valuable in my opinion.
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I've had many times when I stopped completely dairy for months/years, and then I try it again. In the first days I don't feel that much problems, and then I think that dairy is ok (because it's so addictive, the mind will make up a lot of different scenarios/explanations) but after a some days I feel blocked digestion, experience bad skin and a slower mind.
You might have heard about junkies going on a detox so that he can enjoy the high better once he's clean. This is more common than you would think. Same with dairy.
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Which type of dairy did you have that made you feel so bad. Raw organic cows milk? And how did you consume it? Fresh, clabbered, cold, heated?