Paleo Diet: Raw Paleo Diet and Lifestyle Forum
Raw Paleo Diet Forums => Hot Topics => Topic started by: Dorothy on October 25, 2011, 02:38:21 am
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After a couple of months of watching me eat raw ground meat, chewing off bones and living to tell the tale -- hubbie has progressively eaten his (now grass-fed) burgers rarer and rarer until........ he ate a whole 2 tablespoons raw himself! wOOt! Funny how hard that first bite of all raw can be even with eating rare burgers and sushi all the time. It's a mental leap. He seems to only like ground. I would make very thin steak sashimi - but rare steaks are turn-off to him.
In the morning I have gotten him to stop eating cereals (FINALLY!) by making a soaked, dehydrated mixed nut and date cream/pie crust on top of which he can put all his berries and fruits (which he loves btw). The first time I put frozen banana icecream on top to really win him over. It's like the best desert you ever had anywhere. So breakfast is much better now.
For lunch I've gotten him very happy with frequent sliced sashimi en masse. We make fab sauces and add herbs and seaweeds. Sometimes he has his rare hamburger - but I'm hoping to get him willing to eat the all-raw version more and more with the raw egg yolk sauce on top but at present he will only eat such a tiny amount and he needs more meat. Lunch is a time that we eat greens cut directly from my garden. They seem to digest well for us well with the meat. It's certainly better than the bread with the hamburger that is being replaced, slowly, but surely. I find that I have to eat much less meat than him to feel good. I think he needs even more than what he is getting though and really needs bone/cartilage.
You see, he has a disc that is almost all gone. We've been doing physical stuff like traction and he now goes out to do yoga most days. The overall pain is reduced and if he gets into pain I can get him back to his baseline pretty quickly with hands-on-healing. But....... diet is pivotal! FYI he also suffers from allergies terribly here in Austin - the allergy capital of the world. People without allergies move here and get them. Most of the population suffers but he already was susceptible. Any suggestions for the disc and the allergies would be listened to with open ears and mind.
I was finally able to get some bone marrow yesterday. I tried before to get grass-fed but it was always too hard and frozen. What I got this time was not grass-fed - but better than nothing. At the market the kind butcher was also willing to cut it up into the ideal pieces to eat easily - unlike the whole bones from the farmer's market. Hubbie will eat the marrow only with his hamburgers, one bite of burger and one bite of marrow. together - but at least it's in! I took the marrow out of the bone for him but I eat it right out of the bone. I LOVE the taste of the marrow. It gives me such a wonderful hydration! It's like the best lip balm in the world. I bet over time he will come to like it more. I just HAS to be good for him.
On the stove now are the bones with the cartilage and the left-over less-soft marrow in a pot simmering. Breakfast and lunch are handled but the last meal ends up being his old cooked stuff often with brown rice and such. I at least can get him to put raw egg yolk and avocado on the rice and veggies now though. He's been watching me eat raw egg yolks from our chickens for years. I'm trying to figure out a way to make that last meal better. I figure, if it's going to be cooked, I should try to make it slow-cooked and some vegetables that are only good cooked for a larger variety of nutrients, cooked only in water and covered so the nutrients go back into the water - and a way to get some more meat and minerals into the guy. I don't understand slow-cooking much, stews or stocks. I'm thinking of it as a stop-gap on the way to getting his mineral and nutrient stores up and a way to get him towards raw....... but I only made stock once with lamb bones and he wouldn't eat it. I got some winter squashes that I thought I could put in and might help make it taste better - kombocha pumpkin is very rich and meaty. I need help with seasoning and recipes, what to add to make it taste good to the average Joe.
I feel like we have made TREMENDOUS progress considering that the changes in his diet were not self-initiated. It just shows what being an example can do when it comes to eating raw animal foods. My ears are open to all suggestions of any kind on how to help my hubbie heal up his disc, cure his allergies, get mineralized and transition to raw paleo with the most taste and grace. I'd like to pick up the pace of healing.
Diet, alternative therapies, paleo lifestyles, recipes - any old thing that comes to your mind - please don't hesitate to offer.
Thanks!
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I would suggest getting plenty of vitamin D through sunlight and Now brand softgels, and maybe supplementing with a little bone meal. Scallops (not chemically-treated ones, also called "wet" scallops) have really helped my tooth sensitivity...that might be good for rebuilding bones too.
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I would suggest getting plenty of vitamin D through sunlight and Now brand softgels, and maybe supplementing with a little bone meal. Scallops (not chemically-treated ones, also called "wet" scallops) have really helped my tooth sensitivity...that might be good for rebuilding bones too.
Thanks Cherimoya. I got him Nature's Way D3 because it does not have any added oil. Now has olive oil in it and it does not say first pressed or extra virgin. The store near us "Central Market" has a brand that I have taken that has rice bran oil and is in a glass jar that I have taken. Is there a reason that you pick Now Brand over the others? He gets about a thousand IU a day. What dosage do you think is ideal? He isn't in the sun much.
The bones themselves are actually getting arthritic growths from hitting each other. It's the disc made of collagen in between the bones that is soft that has deteriorated from the lack of proper curvature of his neck. It seems that these discs get fused with moisture and minerals and nutrients when the bones go up and down and bounce on them correctly. They have no blood going - all the nutrition and hydration happen through osmosis. All in all though, I'm sure that calcium and bone would have to help. I have some calcium type supplements but I wonder about getting powdered bone instead. Do you have a good source for powdered bone?
Hubbie really hates scallops but I wonder if he has tried the right kind or they might have been treated. What are they usually treated with? I didn't think to ask about that. I personally thought a little tasted good but then they started to taste bad to me quickly - maybe for the same reasons. I've read here about wet and dry scallops being different but can't remember what the difference was now. I'll try to find both and see if one or the other is tolerable for him - unless one is toxic of course. I might have to try to hide it like the marrow if scallops like marrow would be really good for cartilage and collagen.
I actually thought of grinding up our chickens eggshells and supplementing with those. Considering how my chickens are fed I bet they would be a great supplement - I'm just not sure if they would be digestible for humans. Can humans digest eggshells or bones? I thought that dogs had special enzymes that we don't for the digestion of bones.
Great suggestions - thank you.
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Chicken eggshells should work fine as a replacement for bone meal.
I have only tried two kinds of vitamin D, and the Now brand worked, and the other, Carlson's, DIDN'T.
The best way to figure out if it works is to take the Now brand for about 5 days, 5000 IU daily, and see if any health problems clear up. If they do, he's deficient. To test the other brands, stop taking the Now brand, and see if they control those health problems as well.
Wet scallops are treated with sodium metabisulfite. They taste all chemical-y raw, and the minerals are not nearly as absorbable.
I find that clams are really good for my finger and toenails, they make them really strong. You might want to feed him clams, and of course feed him connective tissue from meat. Maybe try to crush up some wild-caught fish spines, and have him eat those, with the connective tissue and bones both.
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Scallops should make a fantastic ceviche. It might be a good way to introduce him to enjoy scallops.
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bone broth, grapefruit for acidity to pull the minerals and add potassium and tons of pot herbs, greens, and spices, even veggies(roots, minus potatoes, sweet and otherwise) strained, will increase the mineral content
i would also suggest whey
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5000IU Vit D! That might be the real difference. Most suggestions are for 1000 daily so that in itself might be an issue. I'm always afraid of supplement overdose so unless someone I trust says that it's ok to go over recommended amounts I won't assume that I can. I even had him on calcitriol which is D2 which is for people that might have trouble converting D3 due to kidney insufficiency - but that made no difference. It all might be in the dosage. He's increasing the D3 that we got gradually up to 5000 IU based on your suggestion Cherimoya since we already have it and if that doesn't work then I will get him the NOW brand and see if that works. Vitamin D is the one supplement that has gained almost universal acceptance as a necessary supplement if one isn't outdoors - which my hubbie is rarely. Eventually, with the increase of raw foods with high Vit D content hopefully we will be able to reduce or eliminate supplementation. It's always better to get things from food if possible - but if you can't..... the pills can be a lifesaver.
Dry scallops it is then - that might make all the difference right there. RawZi - Ceviche with lots of basil (his favorite) is a stupendous idea!
Clams he also hates - is there something wrong with those guys too if in a certain form? Can you make those into something yummy like the scallops and the ceviche?
I've got to figure out how to get wild-caught fish spines here in Central Texas because that's a GREAT idea on how to get bones, marrow, collagen etc. in a raw form. I'm giving him a collagen supplement by Doctor's Best and ionic minerals - but again - they are out of a jar which is always inferior. Most of the fish arrives here already cut up and in slabs and frozen so it's not like I can go to a fishmonger and ask them for the leftover bones. I'm wondering if I can find some little fishes with the spines still in them and figure out how to prepare them so that he will like them. I bet little fishes would be good dehydrated if I could figure out how to do that without smelling up the house or making our 4 feral cats go bonkers outside. Any suggestions on how to make small fish work?
Such helpful suggestions so far! Thanks.
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bone broth, grapefruit for acidity to pull the minerals and add potassium and tons of pot herbs, greens, and spices, even veggies(roots, minus potatoes, sweet and otherwise) strained, will increase the mineral content
i would also suggest whey
Hey Jessica - I have bones with marrow and cartilage in a big pot on the stovetop now that has been simmering since yesterday morning! Please - do you have any recipes or suggestions on how to make it taste good? I made it once before even with seasonings and veggies - but he wouldn't eat it. It really didn't taste all that good. The dogs loved it though! ;)
Would you please explain to me more why grapefruit would be useful? I'm afraid that I don't understand. I know that grapefruit can make things like CoQ10 massively more absorbed. Does it do that with minerals too and do you understand the mechanism?
Hubbie is a spice-a-holic (sounds like something from out of Dune right?). We use fresh herbs and what is not fresh are things that are organic and I've dehydrated and powdered myself to avoid all the crap that is done to spices these days. I've been growing greens and we have been eating lots of those. I can try to increase them. Mineral contents, chlorophyll etc. I was thinking that I need to make some of my raw veggie soups (from my powdered veggies) and maybe add some of the bone broth and see how that goes. Your suggestion cemented the idea in my head now. I'll try it tonight. I have been especially looking for ways to use tumeric.
Why no sweet potatoes?
I've tried to hide my fermented whey in many different forms - but that's a no go. The chickens always get it and he eats the eggs instead. :) Nobody seems to like the stuff. Not the dogs, the cats or even the chickens - I have to mix it with powdery grains to make them eat it. I understand how good it's supposed to be. Besides, I started to smell the plastic in the milk even though it was only in plastic a few hours so stopped getting it. Those soft plastic containers for milk freak me out now. I won't get milk or cream again until I get a bunch of big glass jars and go directly to the farm. It will be a big trip and a few days of constant work to make enough food to warrant the trip.... but definitely a fun outing and project that is in the future plans. Hubbie misses the butter and so do I.
Thanks a bunch Jessica!
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Dry scallops it is then - that might make all the difference right there. RawZi - Ceviche with lots of basil (his favorite) is a stupendous idea!
Clams he also hates - is there something wrong with those guys too if in a certain form? Can you make those into something yummy like the scallops and the ceviche?
I've got to figure out how to get wild-caught fish spines here in Central Texas because that's a GREAT idea on how to get bones, marrow, collagen etc. in a raw form. I'm giving him a collagen supplement by Doctor's Best and ionic minerals - but again - they are out of a jar which is always inferior. Most of the fish arrives here already cut up and in slabs and frozen so it's not like I can go to a fishmonger and ask them for the leftover bones. I'm wondering if I can find some little fishes with the spines still in them and figure out how to prepare them so that he will like them. I bet little fishes would be good dehydrated if I could figure out how to do that without smelling up the house or making our 4 feral cats go bonkers outside.
It wasn't this brand http://pet-supplies.drsfostersmith.com/search?af=type%3Aproduct&view=grid&w=shrimp&visitorID=&cartcount=1&wishcount=0&subtotal=14.99 (http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=) but I tried the one ingredient dried shrimp treats for cats, only a few of the very tiny shrimps, and they were tasty! I also tried a Latin American brand made for humans, and it was so awful even starving cats would touch it, for real. I like eating live clams with some seawater and a lot of fresh squeezed lemon juice. Clams would be nice made into a raw New England style or Boston style clam chowder too, with basil! :) No? Wild herring are high in D and I imagine even more absorbable fermented. Maybe baby herring could work, but herring are one of the smelliest fish, so you may get more cats. It would be nice if hubby just ate these things without worrying about taste. I know he doesn't have the same problems as my son who has certain physical ills, but when he ate fish four days he didn't want fats with it cause he thought cucumber and tomato would taste better. I let him. His intestines bled, he got deathly anemic for a while from that, and I have to wonder if I would have said "you have to eat fat with it" if it would have been better. When I start radical new diets on myself, I worry more about seeing if the foods work in their purest forms and how, rather than flavor or a preconceived notion being a real priority.
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any thing with acidity, grapefruit, lime juice, will help to break down the minerals in the bones...strain it and slow cook some root veggies and leeks and onions in there, make a delicious soup, they are extremely healing to those transitioning or with difficulty digesting
whey is super mineral rich...i would suggest you do some reserach on that as well...a great transitional diet would be to do some kind of weston a price with less grains or perhaps check out marksdailyapple.com and apply the same priciples but with less cooking of the meat
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It wasn't this brand http://pet-supplies.drsfostersmith.com/search?af=type%3Aproduct&view=grid&w=shrimp&visitorID=&cartcount=1&wishcount=0&subtotal=14.99 (http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=) but I tried the one ingredient dried shrimp treats for cats, only a few of the very tiny shrimps, and they were tasty! I also tried a Latin American brand made for humans, and it was so awful even starving cats would touch it, for real. I like eating live clams with some seawater and a lot of fresh squeezed lemon juice. Clams would be nice made into a raw New England style or Boston style clam chowder too, with basil! :) No? Wild herring are high in D and I imagine even more absorbable fermented. Maybe baby herring could work, but herring are one of the smelliest fish, so you may get more cats. It would be nice if hubby just ate these things without worrying about taste. I know he doesn't have the same problems as my son who has certain physical ills, but when he ate fish four days he didn't want fats with it cause he thought cucumber and tomato would taste better. I let him. His intestines bled, he got deathly anemic for a while from that, and I have to wonder if I would have said "you have to eat fat with it" if it would have been better. When I start radical new diets on myself, I worry more about seeing if the foods work in their purest forms and how, rather than flavor or a preconceived notion being a real priority.
I hear ya Zi! That sounds like a God awful experience with your boy! I do the same - try to eat in the purest form first. It might have been a different issue with a child than an adult too. I find it utterly amazing that the man is being as cooperative about all this stuff as he is. He is very intelligent and motivated so I can argue for the health of a particular food or therapy- but - he will always follow his own senses - which I actually appreciate.
We just had raw tuna and salmon for lunch with some sauce. Are you saying that raw tuna and salmon necessitate an added fat source? This is news to me and I'd very much like to understand this more.
Oh - New England clam chowder would be wonderful except unfermented dairy is deadly to him. He's quite lactose intolerant. I wonder if it would taste ok with fermented cream and butter? Have you ever tried that Zi? I pretty much lived off of the regular New England clam chowder when I lived in New England so many years ago! Love the stuff. He's also staying away from nightshades because of his inflammation these days so can't do Manhattan clam chowder either. Darn. Is there another way to make raw clam chowder?
I would love to find some raw herring - but haven't yet. Baby herring sounds ideal. Very fatty right? The cat treats are a great idea - and at the same time I would worry a bit because what they allow for animal foods..... you know. I saw a video once of someone putting a fan in a window to dry fish - but with the pollen allergy issue that wouldn't work. I'm starting to wonder about a shed for dehydrating in. Our four cats might build a bomb though. ;)
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any thing with acidity, grapefruit, lime juice, will help to break down the minerals in the bones...strain it and slow cook some root veggies and leeks and onions in there, make a delicious soup, they are extremely healing to those transitioning or with difficulty digesting
whey is super mineral rich...i would suggest you do some reserach on that as well...a great transitional diet would be to do some kind of weston a price with less grains or perhaps check out marksdailyapple.com and apply the same priciples but with less cooking of the meat
Hi Jessica. Oh GREAT - I will go add lime right now. I'm going to filter the stock and then use it trying different soup recipes to find something appealing. I used carrots and onion in the last one that didn't work. This time I was going to try some winter squash on top of the carrots and onion. Any other suggestions besides leeks?
I was planning on adding sweet potato. Would you please tell me why you said no sweet potatoes?
Jessica, please believe me, I know tons about whey and have made it en masse for years. He hates it. Besides, as I said above, I am not getting milk and therefore will not have whey any more because I don't want any of us eating or drinking plastic. It's not worth the trade-off.
Do you have any second best suggestions to the whey?
I am quite familiar with the Weston A. Price Diet and we are already past that me thinks. We're rying to get rid of the grains entirely. I'm not familiar with Marksdailyapple. I'll check that out.
Thanks again.
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sweet potatoes are very suspect to me...super concentrated carbs, a weird latex sap that exudes from the raw guys when you slice 'em and an extreme propensity to go rancid and mold(ive farmed stored and sold thousands of pounds of em!)
perhaps garlic instead of leeks?
I'd suggest adding the green of carrots to the broth as well...
mark's daily apple would probably be a good next step, i really respect his research and ideas and think that for those with a healthier constitution and less sensitivity his recipes and nutritional ideas are pretty good and he has a TON of articles and information not only on diet but lifestyle, exerciser stress....etc...and the roll that plays on health as well
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Clams work in ceviche, I've eaten clam/mussel ceviche in Costa Rica many times, it's very good.
As far as fish go, It might be worth a monthly trip to the Gulf Coast, or at least Houston, to get fresh fish with the bones/spines. IIRC, you live around Austin.
5000 IU of vitamin D daily is not at all problematic. The only time I've gotten too high on my vitamin D level is when I was eating basically ZC, and having about 10,000 IU daily. The more carbs you eat, the more vitamin D you can take without getting toxic. Carbs reduce the effectiveness of vitamin D, fat increases it.
I would definitely try the Now brand, 5000 to 10,000 IU daily for about 5 days.
You're in Texas, can't he just go outside for some sun?
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sweet potatoes are very suspect to me...super concentrated carbs, a weird latex sap that exudes from the raw guys when you slice 'em and an extreme propensity to go rancid and mold(ive farmed stored and sold thousands of pounds of em!)
perhaps garlic instead of leeks?
I'd suggest adding the green of carrots to the broth as well...
mark's daily apple would probably be a good next step, i really respect his research and ideas and think that for those with a healthier constitution and less sensitivity his recipes and nutritional ideas are pretty good and he has a TON of articles and information not only on diet but lifestyle, exerciser stress....etc...and the roll that plays on health as well
I've seen that oozey stuff in some sweet potatoes. I always throw those out. I eat a lot of raw sweet potato leaves these days and the stems have a heavy sap which I stay away from too. Seems to me that the problem with a lot of the root vegetables is their staying power can be deceptive. Freshness can become problematic when they don't totally rot quickly like other things. I can't wait to see the difference when I dig up my own home-grown sweet potatoes and use them immediately this winter (hopefully). I've found that the difference in eating green leaves that are picked and eaten immediately is light years different than buying any of them from the store so it's probably the same with root veggies. Those are very good points Jessica -- and I bet I should think along those same lines with most of my long-storage fall veggies. I'm looking forward in the spring to growing as much of what we might eat as we can. Even now when I buy a root vegetable from the store I usually store them this time of year by planting them again and storing them outdoors. I get several growths of greenery from them that way and whenever I need one it's always optimally fresh. I do this with scallions a lot. The growing season is often too short here to work with easily and get full growth. I also cut off the tops (with greens removed) of many root vegetables and plant them again. Aren't I sneaky? ;)
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Clams work in ceviche, I've eaten clam/mussel ceviche in Costa Rica many times, it's very good.
As far as fish go, It might be worth a monthly trip to the Gulf Coast, or at least Houston, to get fresh fish with the bones/spines. IIRC, you live around Austin.
5000 IU of vitamin D daily is not at all problematic. The only time I've gotten too high on my vitamin D level is when I was eating basically ZC, and having about 10,000 IU daily. The more carbs you eat, the more vitamin D you can take without getting toxic. Carbs reduce the effectiveness of vitamin D, fat increases it.
I would definitely try the Now brand, 5000 to 10,000 IU daily for about 5 days.
You're in Texas, can't he just go outside for some sun?
I'll get dry scallops AND clams and Snapper and make a ceviche out of all of them together! Now I'm really excited to try this!
Yes, we live in Austin and a monthly trip anywhere is a goal we are working towards. :) Our diet (and lives) will greatly improve in many ways when we work that out .
Re the sun - Texas so sucks in this regard. When it gets hot it is so hot that you can barely last a minute in it. This summer it was 3 months of temps over 100, many at 110 in the SHADE which means oven temperatures in the sun and the temps would soar early in the morning and in the late afternoons the heat was outrageous. You can fry eggs on cement here in the summer and summer is very long and when it stops it stops suddenly and goes directly to winter. Winter then goes directly into summer. One day here recently (the last day of our "summer") it was 98 degrees out and the next day it never got past the 50's. The winds stopped coming from Mexico and started coming from Canada. This time of year there are some days in the middle of the day that you can get out and be comfortable for a short time and I try to take advantage of those, but with Hubbie's daytime schedule - it doesn't work. This also hopefully will one day change.
5 days - high dosage vit D. Got it. Very interesting info on carbs reducing effectiveness of Vit D. I always thought Vit D supplementation was more important on carb diets because carbs have less Vit D in them so the more animal foods you eat the more vitamin D you would eat and therefore not have to supplement as much - and then of course fat increases vitamin D absorption and animal foods have more fat usually. Do you know how carbs reduce the effectiveness - the mechanism I mean? Do they absorb it or something?
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Cherimoya - this is uncanny. After the conversation we just had about the sun my husband asked me if I have ever heard of far infrared. I giggled and said I always wanted a sauna so it could melt all the plastic out of me! He sent me this:
http://www.lef.org/magazine/mag2009/jun2009_Far-Infrared-Therapy_01.htm?source=search&key=%22muscle%20tension (http://www.lef.org/magazine/mag2009/jun2009_Far-Infrared-Therapy_01.htm?source=search&key=%22muscle%20tension)
He's picking up on the power of the sun and I think I might be able to discuss with him totally re-arranging his life to get outside in the middle of the day and sun bathe with me - maybe? It would be a big deal, but there might be an opening here. I don't know how long it will be able to last but any amount could be helpful.
I'm going to send him the information Raw-Al sent me on sun-gazing too me-thinks.
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Tyler was explaining in another thread how folks that he knows that say that they were generally allergic to dairy but not allergic to certain types of fermented dairy when giving up dairy eventually healed up problems because tiny bits of the allergens were still in the fermented products. I thought I'd take that up and continue it here not to divert that other thread. Tonight I muscle tested him for raw parmagiana cheese and he got stronger with it. I will test him with the Coca pulse test tomorrow with different cheeses. Arthur Coca discovered that digesting an allergen will raise the resting pulse more than 10 points a half hour later. All you have to do is take your pulse to find out if you are allergic to something. I really can't believe that I haven't done muscle testing etc. on my hubbie before. What was I thinking?!!! (or not thinking more likely).
I talked to Hubbie about sitting out in the sun and his response was "WHAT??? With my allergies to pollen and this cedar fever killing me?" Uh, yeah, duh, forgot about that. That's why we have a whole house filtration system and other outrageous systems running all the time and he has to wear a mask. Well, we'll start with the D in pills and see how that goes.
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Do you know how carbs reduce the effectiveness - the mechanism I mean? Do they absorb it or something?
There is a specific mechanism, it reduces the effectiveness of all steroidal activity in the body, including vit D, which is a type of steroid. Also, the simple lack of fat also gives the vit D no way to move throughout the body.
Speaking of allergies--most allergies are well-controlled by vitamin D. It moderates and reduces excesses in the immune system. Have him try the D for 5-7 days, and see if it helps his allergies. Don't tell him, just see if he mentions it, or if you notice. Ask him specifically about plaque on his teeth, because vit D usually reduces that. What other health problems does he have?
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There is a specific mechanism, it reduces the effectiveness of all steroidal activity in the body, including vit D, which is a type of steroid. Also, the simple lack of fat also gives the vit D no way to move throughout the body.
Speaking of allergies--most allergies are well-controlled by vitamin D. It moderates and reduces excesses in the immune system. Have him try the D for 5-7 days, and see if it helps his allergies. Don't tell him, just see if he mentions it, or if you notice. Ask him specifically about plaque on his teeth, because vit D usually reduces that. What other health problems does he have?
Carbs block all steroids - wow - that's interesting. I have to research that more. That kind of information could help to swing the tide with helping him with a decision to completely nix carbs. He just sent out for a hormone test. They were being mailed from the pharmacy today. Kinda figure that hormones play a role in the allergies.
He used to have very bad plaque problems but a tooth routine including msm/xylitol swooshed in his mouth at night has brought that under control. He no longer has to see his periodontist either and they are quite please at the how his pockets have been reduced and his gums have stopped receding (and can I see that they have grown back) . That would be a big boon for him to have that helped even more. That was a scary issue at the time facing the likely loss of his teeth. Whew. Glad that's over.
He has history of a bunch of fairly big health issues that have been handled. We kinda took them one by one over the years.
He has always had scoliosis, which affects his entire body structure and function and probably has affected his neck and his disc which in turn has given him different symptoms - many of which are starting to come under control. His chiropractor says that there is no way to regenerate the disc - just very expensive ways to block the pain. I don't believe him.
The allergies are really a tremendous problem right now. In our triage unit here - the allergies go to the front of the line to be attended to right now. It's a bit like having the worst cold all the time. He's really suffering, his energy gets very low, he is inflamed with a constant flow of mucus to where he can barely breath and the cedar season will continue through February. It's a major stress to the point where if it can't be handled with nutrition and perhaps allergy drops (or Vitamin D fingers crossed) we might end up having to move - which in itself would be a horror for us atm.
How I would love it if it could be as simple as taking enough vitamin D! I'm assuming that the Vitamin D has to be taken with fat correct? Would it be better to break up the dosage over the course of the day?
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Hubbie balked at going directly to taking 5000 of a fat soluble vitamin (which can create overdoses and create kidney damage) but like the smart soul that he is (not believing the government limit of 2000) he got on-line and did research and found an article that not only swung him, but totally convinced him to start immediately taking 5000. He will take it with lunch when we eat the most fat.
http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/releases/51913.php (http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/releases/51913.php)
This is a very powerful article on vitamin D by a physician. If you ever get the flu, colds, any auto-immune diseases (including allergies, diabetes, arthritis etc), worry about getting cancer or heart disease or the bird flu, - read this article top to bottom.
Thank You Cherimoya!
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This is a supernerd link re vit D by the same doctor. If you want confirmation of the science and more detail - check this out:
http://www.thorne.com/altmedrev/.fulltext/13/1/6.pdf (http://www.thorne.com/altmedrev/.fulltext/13/1/6.pdf)
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I just got my D tested last week. It was 43. I supplemented last winter with the same NOW brand softgells and it went from super low (don't remember the exact # ) to around the same range or higher. I stopped around the end of winter. This summer I got out WAY more than the average working stiff does..getting an hour stripped down to my shorts on lunch breaks and then even more sun on days that I have off, which is fairly often. I didn't measure at the very end of summer/early fall to see if its dropped much since then. However, seeing since 43 is just above what could beconsidered defficient, i'd say its a slim chance me or much of anyone In a northern climate is saving up enough D through summer sunlight and even a raw animal food diet to be a thriving healthy person throughout a northern winter.
http://www.rawpaleodietforum.com/hot-topics/lighter-skin-in-europeans-due-to-agriculture/msg68557/#msg68557 (http://www.rawpaleodietforum.com/hot-topics/lighter-skin-in-europeans-due-to-agriculture/msg68557/#msg68557)
People in nature for the most part exist outside - much of the year anyway. Its thought that the body regulates any amount of sun exposure so that it is not toxic and yet one can get up to 30,000 IU from the sun. 1 kg of seafood daily is 1/10 this this amount.
Unless one want to shoot far below even the RDI's which will automatically correlate with bodily deficiency - this will not come from food. I eat quite a bit of organ meats and take blue ice fermented SLO, although not super often. I'm not eating eggs much now, but certainly have eaten tons of those (more than a dozen a day) last winter. I eat oysters, mushrooms, seafood a few times a week etc.. None of these will raise one's levels into the 40's unless they are getting tons of sunlight - likely year round.
probably by december I'll be back with the softgells. I don't doubt the steroid relation as my athletic preformance usually shoots through the roof when I have adequate D, (from the sun or pill does not seem to matter)
Overall i'm pretty happy being @ 43, but I would say that is basically sufficient and not thriving. Also probably had to do with the fact that I was supplementing throughout the winter. people generally can't get proper sun exposure comfortably if their levels are too low, so its double-edged in that way. on an even more positive note, B-12 was @ 3.63 between and ideal range of 200 and 500 pg/mL which was a thankful increase without supps which I stopped 3.5 years ago (oral) but have been hanging at low-ish levels.
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other than fat its been suggested that K2! might be a good idea for D3 absorption...
http://www.archevore.com/panu-weblog/2009/8/9/vitamin-d.html (http://www.archevore.com/panu-weblog/2009/8/9/vitamin-d.html)
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How I would love it if it could be as simple as taking enough vitamin D! I'm assuming that the Vitamin D has to be taken with fat correct? Would it be better to break up the dosage over the course of the day?
I recommend taking it either with fat, or just alone, at bedtime. That's how I usually do it, it seems to work well for me, but I do it specifically to improve sleep quality, and that works better if I take it right before bed. It really has improved my sleep quality tremendously, no exaggeration.
If he really wants to maximize his D absorption and uptake, he should probably go VLC for at least a couple of weeks or so, and eat VERY high fat, like 50-70% of calories. I would transition slowly into the the VLC over about 3-4 weeks.
I wouldn't do the VLC long-term, unless he really finds it to be a real lifesaver, so to speak, which he may. It can be a good thing for most people short-term, and a small number longer-term.
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KD - your story is impressive and telling. I recently read that people's abilities to create vitamin D can fluctuate from person to person a good deal.
Cherimoya, we went to the store with the greatest variety of supplements yesterday and were able to find 5000 in one pill with virgin olive oil (they didn't have the Now brand). The other bottle we bought of 400 was gone in a day because we had to take such a large number of pills to get to 5000. Thanks for the heads up on the night time and sleep.
I for one cannot eat the bone stock I made. I broke out (haven't done that in ages) and felt sick both times I tried it. My body really hates cooked animal foods and fats more than anything except sugar. We can't tell if it hurts or helps hubbie because he feels crappy all the time these days with his allergies no matte what he eats. My beagle really loves the stuff though. ;-) It's really goopy and there is a very thick layer of fat on the top. Do y'all eat that cooked fat? Is that considered rendered fat?
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I can't seem to eat the bone stock either and I've noted a number of members saying the same thing. I don't get it. I've 'beefed up' teas that I make with mushrooms and herbs with rendered fat (tallow) - which is fairly different - but had basically no real issues with that. I would think the bone stocks cooked at low heat and with a higher proportion of minerals would be easier to digest..or a more worthwhile overall experience anyway. No idea on this one. The actual strait bone marrow seems to be fairly pointless (and ends up gross/liquidy) to cook, but the 'knuckle' bones are sort of difficult to get at otherwise.
edit on above. basically b-12 is now 363 between an ideal range of 200 and 500 when using pg/mL
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I for one cannot eat the bone stock I made. I broke out (haven't done that in ages) and felt sick both times I tried it.
Do you have a link for which recipe you used? Were the bones fresh? Frozen? Did you add anything? What kind of animal was it from? What was its feed?
I have tried others stock, like US Wellness, one tiny taste and I poured it out. It wasn't rotten, it just didn't taste like food or worth eating, and of course it was expensive. I tried with various pastured bones. Seems I can deal occasionally if it's from grass-fed red meated animals (lamb bone, bison bone, beef bone), I only get a lot of inflammation, but no really bad effects. Bones from white meat, body can't tolerate it, my nose can't even.
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I couldn't find a recipe. I made stock twice: once with grass-fed lamb bones and this time with bovine - probably fed crap. I really wanted to try raw marrow and this time they took the whole bone and sliced it for me in a machine so I could get soft marrow. I bought grass-fed bones for marrow before but could get no marrow. I have yet to find any non-frozen grass-fed anything here in Texas as someone explained to me being here in beef country the regulations are tight and they have too easy of access to large slaughterhouses that can take the heat from the FDA and everything comes out of the slaughterhouses frozen. It's just too easy and safe to use what the industry has set up here. It's more like a factory and the ways of the old butcher shop are going away.
All I did was simmer the bones. Later on after tasting how horrific it was I added onion, sweet potatoes and carrots (which helped some) and before eating it added some salt and pepper to help the taste - but still - nothing to write home about.
I loved eating raw marrow right out of the bone (even though it wasn't even grass-fed) and hubbie seems better able to tolerate mixing raw marrow with things than eating the stock. Do you guys think that eating just the marrow will be enough for now? He's on a collagen supplement too. Is it better for us to eat the marrow from not grass-fed than not have any marrow at all?
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Ok, gotta ask probably what might sound like a stupid question, but how is fat rendered and what's the difference between that and the stuff on the top of the pot? Does anyone ever eat that thick layer of fat or use it for anything except a dog treat?
I'm glad that I'm not the only one that stock makes feel bad. Thanks for letting me know.
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Ok, gotta ask probably what might sound like a stupid question, but how is fat rendered and what's the difference between that and the stuff on the top of the pot?
Remember, Google is your friend. ;)
I'm glad that I'm not the only one that stock makes feel bad. Thanks for letting me know.
I make bone broth. If I heat it too high it makes me belch, so I heat it at very low temps (mostly the warm setting of the crockpot).
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Maybe I got the heat too high in the process because it was stovetop and not crockpot - but I wasn't going to buy a crockpot if he hated the stuff or we felt bad. Maybe I have to buy one jut to know. l)
Google huh? Gonna make me work are ya? Dam - it's cooked fat - when I come to think about it I really should just chuck it.
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Gonna make me work are ya? Dam - it's cooked fat - when I come to think about it I really should just chuck it.
Make a candle? I'm not sure how well waxy cholesterol could decompose into compost. Fats are the best burning material I think.
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Can you really make a candle out of fat like that? Doesn't it need beeswax or something to keep it's form and not have it immediately melt? I've never made a candle in my life. I guess I would have to google that too! ;D
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Ah yes - the internal bleeding that you mentioned. You told me that one has to have fat with fish - but never went into this more with me re hubbie - would you please? I'll make sure that every fish sauce has raw egg yolk and every single piece of sashimi has avocado (which we often do because so yummy - but not always).
I feel best when I eat about 80% or more fat calories to each 20% or less starch or rather protein calories, of course the protein being flesh or egg-white and raw. So figure out approx how much protein to fat the fish has, and add fat accordingly, if it works for you. Fish oils clean us us, no? Terrestial animal fats nourish us, fuel us differently, and allow us to get strong and repair so that if we go into detox (a cold etc) we are very strong to withstand it.
Does he refuse to eat meat because he loves animals? Have you tried eggs with him yet? -- I know you get those wonderful eggs from the carnivore chickens! How old is he now Zi? I remember your story from way back how sick he was being a vegetarian and how a big part of the reason you moved back to eating animal foods was to save his life. I for some reason thought that was all over with him.
Yes, he loves animals dearly. He refuses eggs. He toyed with the idea of quail eggs. He says no though. Yes, we can even get with full blooms now, and they're real chickens, they eat anything they want, lots of bugs, grass, sour milk etc. He's older. Yes, no kind of vegetarianism (raw, cooked, whole, macro, ayurvedic, five phase) was enough to prevent his deterioration. So after a few years I started opening my food possibilities to grass-fed raw never been frozen nor dried animal and wild-caught raw ditto fish. No, he got past vegan and added milk and colostrum and products he makes from them from animals he knows and feels right about, and unheated honey and cut out everything else but organic raw fruit and vegetables (lettuce). He was cheating with some cooked vegan occasionally at first, but then realized he feels best so far without any cooked, and now plans never to touch cooked again. I guess he might try a roasted nut once in a year or something like that (perhaps less often etc). He's incredibly sick, very strange situation, it's not something that just gets over with..
I wonder if he would be willing to eat bugs from his "ethical" standpoint or if he would be grossed out by that. I keep on thinking that I might try some cooked bugs to start myself out on with it. Does he eat all raw or does he eat cooked foods too? In what ways is he still sick?
He might in the future, raw. He loves bugs too, finds them to be fantastic creations/beings. He may eat them after raising enough generations or in the woods, some way he knows they are clean from any crazy man made food. It's his actual nerves. Over time extended to other parts.
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Can you really make a candle out of fat like that? Doesn't it need beeswax or something to keep it's form and not have it immediately melt? I've never made a candle in my life. I guess I would have to google that too! ;D
People used to dip a wick over and over in beef fat. I've done it.
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Nerve damage - that's a tough one. Even loves bugs. Sigh. Why not eggs though? Can you get a few chickens without a rooster so that the eggs would never hatch any way and he can treat the chickens really well and eat those eggs? It's gotta be better than not having any source of really good fats for his nervous system I would think. I know it might seem silly to raise inferior eggs to those great fertile eggs you get - but if it's a way to get him to eat them.... Is he an teenager now? He could then handle the responsibility probably.
I've been reading a bit about the nervous system and oat straw tincture is supposed to be an excellent tonic herb for the nerves and quite restorative and it's completely vegan for him. I have some "brewing" now which is ready to be strained and can't wait to try some with hubbie (and I figure it wouldn't hurt to give some to me these days either!)
I'll look up dip wick. Thanks. I'd love to have some home-made candles!
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I'll look up dip wick. Thanks. I'd love to have some home-made candles!
There's a pic here of a woman dipping the wicks in tallow, the old way http://candleandsoap.about.com/od/typesofcandles/g/gldippedcandles.htm (http://candleandsoap.about.com/od/typesofcandles/g/gldippedcandles.htm)
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Nerve damage - that's a tough one. Even loves bugs. Sigh. Why not eggs though? Can you get a few chickens without a rooster so that the eggs would never hatch any way and he can treat the chickens really well and eat those eggs? It's gotta be better than not having any source of really good fats for his nervous system I would think. I know it might seem silly to raise inferior eggs to those great fertile eggs you get - but if it's a way to get him to eat them.... Is he an teenager now? He could then handle the responsibility probably.
Yes, especially when it's major nerves, peripheral, central etc etc. He thinks eggs are disgusting to eat. I'll mention the non-rooster tonight. He is having butter and cream, but I feel the eggs would help him get more out of the dairy-fat. I would consider infertile eggs as you describe if it would help him, and I think it would enough. He will want to spend a lot of time with the animals, but need help too, and he's very sick.
I've been reading a bit about the nervous system and oat straw tincture is supposed to be an excellent tonic herb for the nerves and quite restorative and it's completely vegan for him. I have some "brewing" now which is ready to be strained and can't wait to try some with hubbie (and I figure it wouldn't hurt to give some to me these days either!)
We've tried oat-sraw before. I can bring it up again. Enjoy yours, it sounds fun :)
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RawZi, nerve problems are simply not going to get better without loads and loads of fat, particularly animal fat. Period. There's no getting around it. Carbs deteriorate your nerves, and fats rebuild them. The myelin sheath around each nerve cell is made of fat. I experienced terrible social anxiety and panic attacks after several months on a raw low-fat fruit diet, and they only things that cured it were minerals, especially sodium and calcium and magnesium, and fat. Lots and lots and lots of minerals and especially fat.
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RawZi, nerve problems are simply not going to get better without loads and loads of fat, particularly animal fat. Period.
Practically all he eats is butter. We get lots of Jersey milk every two days. He skims the fat off the top, and you know Jersey has more fat than other cows. He makes butter and eats that three meals a day and snacks. He has some organic fruit and honey with it. Occasionally the cream with berries, everything raw, trust me. He's doing better about the more fat too, as he used to use more honey with the butter and cream, but now he uses less honey. We have a cream separator machine too. He's very careful that the cream doesn't have milk in it. Most of the non-fat milk part he either throws in the yard or gives me to bathe.
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Since this thread is about someone who is still eating cooked foods and might or might not be willing to transition, I'm guessing it should be moved to the hot topics or off topics section.
Maybe I got the heat too high in the process because it was stovetop and not crockpot - but I wasn't going to buy a crockpot if he hated the stuff or we felt bad. Maybe I have to buy one jut to know.
You could try using the stovetop at the lowest setting, I suppose. You could even use a double boiler if that doesn't do the trick. You could also experiment with different lengths of cooking times, different acids to add, such as lemon juice or raw fermented coconut water vinegar, and different herbs and spices. You could ask him what his favorite spices are.
The main alternative to bone broths is eating raw edible bones and cartilage, which are not easy to find good sources of. Some people eat ground up eggshells others are able to buy small dried bone-in fish like anchovies, though they tend to be highly salted. Since you raise your own eggs, you could allow the eggs to be fertilized and then allow the embryos to develop a bit to make mineral-rich balut: Remy Eats Balut (Food Oddities - [url=http://www.foododdities.com]www.foododdities.com (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M67bgmhNDqc#ws))[/url] which is generally cooked, but I wonder what it's like raw. I doubt your husband would go for that, though. Another cooked alternative is to low-slow cook meat with small bones like chicken or quail wings and drumsticks until the bones are chewable and when you make soups and stews, leave the bones in instead of cutting off the meat and just putting that in the pot.
Google huh? Gonna make me work are ya? Dam - it's cooked fat - when I come to think about it I really should just chuck it.
Raw is better than cooked, of course. It's strange, though, that people throw away that cooked fat, but then cook their food in fat. What's the difference supposed to be? I don't understand it myself.
He's incredibly sick, very strange situation, it's not something that just gets over with..
When what the child is doing is making them incredibly sick, then, I know it's not easy and I hope this doesn't sound critical or harsh, isn't it time for the parent to step in to protect the child from their own destructive behavior, especially in this modern world where there are so many ways to go wrong? It wasn't as much of a problem in ancient hunter-gatherer societies, of course, because the vast majority of the available food was quite healthy.
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Thanks for the ideas Phil. We really are working the best we can towards all raw - as far as I'm concerned, the cooked stuff is a stop gap - trying to get what he needs until we can get better raw versions that are palatable and available enough for us.
I've given up on the cooked stock at this point. I muscle tested both of us for cooked stock in general and it tested weak. Interesting that neither of us liked the smell or the taste. The dogs now will feast for awhile. ;) My dog with cancer in particular goes mad for the stuff. I'm feeding them the fat too - but one day I just gotta make some candles!
About the taste thing another interesting muscle test was for marrow. I just LOVE the taste and feel of raw bone marrow even when not grass-fed (which is a first for me to feel good from anything not grass-fed) and I tested VERY strong for it and while hubbie didn't like the marrow and he tested weak. I was surprised that marrow was not good for him.
The muscle testing is becoming a great tool. Hubbie asked if he should get the fish for cooking and I said "Why? We have a source for raw tuna and salmon sashimi.", but what really made the point was I tested him for raw fish and he was strong and then for cooked fish and his arm went flopping down. There is nothing quite like that feeling to get it very strongly into your body/mind what is good and what is not. It's really helping.
The goal is to get all three meals all raw instead of just the two that we have been successful at so far. I've decided to try one of my raw soups and add raw egg to it and see how that is. He is now eating almost raw hamburger 3 times a week and raw fish 4 or 5 times a week, but since we stopped eating eggs cooked at all we haven't been eating enough eggs.
We've stopped buying grains - which is a big, big step for hubbie. I'm very happy about that.
Supplementation and therapies of course are not necessarily raw though and I would love to have any ideas or suggestions in that regard that anyone might think of.
Oh - and Phil - would love to be able to have a rooster but can't do that in this neighborhood - but in the spring I'm going to get ducks because drakes are very quiet so we can have fertile duck eggs! Besides, I need the grass mowed and ducks are great at mowing lawns. :D
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Update - We've incorporated a bunch of things including a homeopathic remedy and supplements but we are now on day 5 of the D3. He sounds better to me! We can't know if it's the D3 or not but the man has researched it thoroughly and is now convinced that it is great for him no matter what. He keeps on giving me little bits and pieces like "Did you know that the New England Journal of Medicine is saying that there are over a BILLION people that are D3 deficient?" and "It can take a long time for someone who is very deficient to rebuild their stores." etc. After he is completely better we will take away the specific allergy supports and see how he does on just the D3. He is also now going to get his D3 levels tested.
So far - so good! Keep the suggestions coming if you have any please. :D
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He is sick Phil. He makes raw butter and acquires fresh fantastic milk and more. That has really helped. I hope becoming a hunter gatherer helps him. He's sick like I said in the previous post and we live in a filthy part of a major city that has traffic every hour of the week. As soon as we can we'll live somewhere he can get live animals besides stray cats, rather than buy our meat. Hopefully then we can make a hunter gatherer environment, rather than me waking to him being yelled at in the middle of the night. In the meantime, he is not well enough to go on hunting trips yet.
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Zi, would your son ever be willing to ever go on hunting trips with his love of animals? I'd imagine that it would be easier to eat some bought meat than that no?
I'm so sorry you live in that kind of environment. That stress can't be good for him.
Oh - and if it comes down to you helping to take care of chickens - the great things about chickens is that they take almost no care at all. But, if you live in a city there might be regulations or you might not have a yard. But egg yolks have such good fats even if the chickens are given organic, no soy feed and can be made into sauces that don't even seem like eggs. He would probably be able to make them into good pets easily. It's easier in a way to eat eggs after you see how the hens pop them out and walk away. It becomes like if eating a pets poop was really good for you. When not fertile and the hens not broody it seems almost a shame not to eat them or do SOMETHING with them and when it's a pet it starts to seem like a precious gift - a give and take. What affect do you think eating so much butter/dairy without other fats has on him Zi? Does he eat vegan sources of fats like avocados, oils etc.?
Once kids get to be a certain age and are at school or about with their friends, it can be very hard to restrict their diets, especially if the decision is an ethical one.
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Occasionally he uses stone pressed olive oil and avocado. He feels better with dairy fat, but a little of these are fine. It seems raw egg helps the body deal with fat., not just the Yolk. I like reading your perception and experience with chickens, eggs etc. Are ducks as easy to raise? Would that kind if restrict me as for moving, to a place with a pond/lake?
Sometimes he says he would hunt. He is definitely so far against he himself eating bought meat. I'm thinking if we lived somewhere conducive to healthy hunting, I may get or he may get peers who would have influence on him to hunt.
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I say the yolk because it usually tastes better to most people - at least when not fertilized - even my dogs.
I certainly can't talk definitively about ducks since as yet I do not have any, but from my talking with those that do and research certain breeds don't need much in the way of water and all they need is a little kiddie pool. I certainly won't have a pond. I plan on getting some indian runners - great layers, don't fly and are entertaining. Some folks here keep them with their chickens in the coop and no water to swim in at all - but I think even a little bath is kinder. I will be able to tell you all about them in the spring when I get them. Then I will have grass for them and maybe, hopefully, some rain and bugs. I have sworn not to get any more fowl until I have my black soldier fly and other bug production systems up and running so as not to have to buy much of any food. But, in a pinch, with a sick kid, feeding store-bought feed is a real breeze. These animals aren't like our indoor pets. Let out of coop, give food and water. Put food in coop at night to get them in, close coop. Pretty darn easy if you have a fenced-in property.
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I know fencing is important. Another concern.
Kiddie pool, cool. lol I'm sure they'd dirty a saltwater swimming pool. Even my parrots I made sure had water to bath with every day. I hope I don't have a big fight having unfluoridated unchlorinated civilized water. Indian runners don't need much water?
He's very aware if the cows/goats eat any grain. I don't know if he would be the same with eggs or not. Hopefully he won't bring it up and just feel well with it. If grain fed egg hurts him and I don't warn him, he might feel hurt. What about feeding the laying hens old grass fed meat and entrails? I'm sure he's cool with the animals eating anything that's good for them.
I had to eat yolks without whites for six months before I could tolerate any whites. The whites were smelling awful to me.
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I know fencing is important. Another concern.
Kiddie pool, cool. lol I'm sure they'd dirty a saltwater swimming pool. Even my parrots I made sure had water to bath with every day. I hope I don't have a big fight having unfluoridated unchlorinated civilized water. Indian runners don't need much water?
He's very aware if the cows/goats eat any grain. I don't know if he would be the same with eggs or not. Hopefully he won't bring it up and just feel well with it. If grain fed egg hurts him and I don't warn him, he might feel hurt. What about feeding the laying hens old grass fed meat and entrails? I'm sure he's cool with the animals eating anything that's good for them.
I had to eat yolks without whites for six months before I could tolerate any whites. The whites were smelling awful to me.
Oh, chickens LOVE meat leftovers - and the difference between ruminants and chickens is that chickens are supposed to eat grain so it doesn't mess them up like it does a goat. I love watching them jump to get eat grass seeds and in the wild they would search high and low for seeds whenever they can get them just like they dig for bugs. He could also hunt or raise bugs for them. They eat mostly bugs. To feed my chickens what I feel is their ideal diet (and I'm a bit crazed about it) I am building a black soldier fly composter and working on making a really good mealworm system. In the spring I will also raised red wigglers again. With the bsflies and red wigglers I take their leftovers and make them into bugs for them and with the mealworms I take the grains that they eat and raise some bugs in it so that I can put out seed WITH bugs in it. Chickens do need some grain to be healthy just like they need little rocks to digest. Grains are an important part of their diet and most good chicken feeds have a big percentage of fish meal in them to provide the protein that they so need. Chickens will even eat a small mouse and I've seen them eat snakes. They love getting meat and if they get used to you feeding it to them from an early age will thrive on your meat leftovers.
Ducks as I understand it on the other hand eat primarily bugs and grass, but also, very high protein diet. I don't know enough about them yet to know if they will eat meat leftovers, but I knew someone who fed their ducks nothing but dog food out of cans - so if the meat is soft, I suspect they will love it too.
Ducks will dirty any pool as they poop where they swim, but the woman that sells me duck eggs told me that she has one trough with wire over it so that the ducks can put in their heads and drink, but not swim in. The kiddie pool they poop in needs to be cleaned every day or too - but if they have fresh water to drink, they will be ok. Do you have a salt water pool? That might have to be fenced off from the ducks or it will get pooped in. If you don't have a fence, one of the best options is a chicken tractor. You move it from place to place in your yard so that the chickens can have fresh grass and a new place to fertilize. They come in all sizes. Big smart farms have the kind that get pulled behind a tractor to weed and fertilize their fields.
Indian runners don't fly so they will be fine in my fenced-in yard as my chickens are. I had to clip the wings of my leghorns when I first got them, but now they know where home is and are fine fully-winged.
That was a long post with a bunch of birdie info. Hope it was useful.
Why kind of parrots did you have? I soooooooo want to get eclectuses! I miss parrots in my life. Husbands allergies though. Hopefully with enough D3 Tuxedo the feral cat will one day be able to hang with me on the couch along with my pair of parrots! :D
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I disagree that chickens are meant to eat grains. Sure, some grains but chickens fed on 100 percent grain diets(most chickens taste foul by comparison to pasture-fed chickens.
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I'm sorry Tyler, what I wrote was probably too long so misunderstood. I said that chickens are meant to eat some grains so won't be hurt like ruminents are from even a small percentage of their diet being grain - and that chickens mostly need protein so would love Zi's meat leftovers that she mentioned and her son could catch or raise them bugs to eat. I also said that the good grain mixtures have a high percentage of fish meal.
My chicken expert friends say that they think chickens in nature would eat at least 50% bugs and other proteins but that it would depend on the time of the year. I find that with my chickens the more protein I give them, the happier they are and the better they lay and the better the eggs. They also need greens. That's why I won't get any more fowl until I have my bug production running smoothly enough and the spring when the grasses are growing and the yard is filled with bugs. But if Zi has meat leftovers and bugs she could get some proper high protein (no soy or gmo) chicken food and would be good to go. Her son could even grow them wheatgrass for their greens if there are none in the yard. It would be such a fun project for a young boy like her son I would think. I was saying that if he uses a good mix as a base but takes into consideration the chickens' other needs he wouldn't be disappointed or get sick from the eggs.
And another thought........ maybe if he sees the chickens eating the bugs he raises and catches, maybe he might eventually try them too! The boy seems to really need some good proteins and fats and maybe he might get used to the idea of eating bugs if he feeds them to his chickens.
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Son may eat the bugs, that's what he has said, that he might. I think he's leaning more toward that then him actually eating the eggs, so far. He mentioned it again yesterday, perhaps half jokingly.
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Oh - that's really good Zi! It might be worth getting the birds and raising the bugs just to have them there for your son so he can try it without any pressure if he so happens to want to one day. That could make all the difference for him.
From what people tell me (and lizards tell me - hee hee) superworms and crickets are some of the tastiest of bugs and both are fairly straight-forward to raise. You used to have a cricket I remember right? One that lived like a million years!
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Took great care of that cricket, offering at least four different kinds of fresh nice organic fruit and veges every day. Kept in a glass tank with pulled grass bedding. Lived about six months, if I remember right. We had plenty more, but that one was obviously special. Always stood out near/amongst the rest of them.
Sounds good. The chickens can be available, eggs available, and not being pushed to produce, as only eaten from when we need. I'm paying as much attention as I can to slaughtering too, so I'll be able to do it in a compassionate way when I start that part. We've lived with chickens before too, didn't eat any then, no one ate them, more like a hobby farm. He was great at catching them and "hypnotizing" them (calming them intentionally and gently). They did eat some corn. He helped feed them that every day. He wasn't a whole lot bigger than them then more or less, possibly less than ten times their weight, and they were a small variety that were good at flying.
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You and your son probably know more about chicken raising than I do! ;)
I know that I will never be able to eat my chickens so don't be too surprised (if he loves animals that much and they become pets) if your son won't eat them either or get really upset if you want to. You will still have the eggs and the bugs/worms though for him available whenever and if ever! Don't forget to make sure to get pullets not quite yet producing so as to have the longest period you can of production. There are some breeds that don't produce as much but produce longer. If you and the rest of the family/pets don't eat many eggs that's probably best as it's always a good idea to get at least 3 chickens in case something happens to one the remaining one won't be messed up. They are such social animals.
How many chickens did you have and what size is your yard?
I'd love to see your son hypnotizing a flighty chicken!
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He is sick Phil. He makes raw butter and acquires fresh fantastic milk and more. That has really helped. I hope becoming a hunter gatherer helps him. He's sick like I said in the previous post and we live in a filthy part of a major city that has traffic every hour of the week. As soon as we can we'll live somewhere he can get live animals besides stray cats, rather than buy our meat. Hopefully then we can make a hunter gatherer environment, rather than me waking to him being yelled at in the middle of the night. In the meantime, he is not well enough to go on hunting trips yet.
Yes, I understood that he is sick but I have no idea what the rest of your post means, so I'll just leave it at that and wish you luck.
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I know that I will never be able to eat my chickens so don't be too surprised (if he loves animals that much and they become pets) if your son won't eat them either or get really upset if you want to. ...How many chickens did you have and what size is your yard?
He told me today he wants to raise a few (dairy) goats, and if they have twins, he plans to sell them as pets or to be dairy goats, and will not let me eat them.
We didn't own the property, but we were the people who lived there, so we didn't own the chickens. I would say there were about thirty. It was on three acres, and there were lots of juicy bugs and lizards to eat etc. Presently my back yard is maybe six feet by twelve feet. The front yard has no fence. It's maybe twenty-four by twelve feet. I believe it turns out to be completely illegal to have a chicken here.
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Yes, I understood that he is sick but I have no idea what the rest of your post means, so I'll just leave it at that and wish you luck.
Sorry if my post was defensive or sarcastic in any way. Internet has its limits. It can't fully replace the tribe, wish as I may that it can. As it stands, he really deserves to choose what he chooses, he's a person who feels the deepest need to make his own decisions, although he does take into consideration what I know etc ... I hope he's ready and willing to post himself. Until then, I prefer to post for me, and only post for him when it's his idea. :) Thank you for the good wishes! I will convey them.
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Maybe it'll help to explain dat I was raised in the olde school. Me parents felt I deserved to choose what they pleased and if I felt the deepest need to make me own decisions it would have been out to the cats I'd have been thrown. ;) The new wave of kids doin' what they please is incomprehensible to me, try as ye may to explain it. Please forgive my backwardness and thickheadedness.
I do understand that hunter-gatherers give their children freer reign, but then there are fewer bad foods and other problems for them to deal with, or at least there were.
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By the way, I love that part of the video you posted where that little boy looovvved the taste of the half grown duck egg.
Maybe it'll help to explain dat I was raised in the olde school. Me parents felt I deserved to choose what they pleased and if I felt the deepest need to make me own decisions it would have been out to the cats I'd have been thrown. ;) The new wave of kids doin' what they please is incomprehensible to me, try as ye may to explain it. Please forgive my backwardness and thickheadedness.
I had no choice either. My parents chose what I ate and if I ate. I don't know how many children you have, but they can have very individual personalities etc. This one has to have choices. I know we might all feel better with choices, but some have a spirit like that way more than others.
I do understand that hunter-gatherers give their children freer reign, but then there are fewer bad foods and other problems for them to deal with, or at least there were.
This is a second marriage ... before I only kept healthy foods around, had son's friends over all the time who loved my food ... and I made as balanced natural meal as possible at regular times. This time I'm with a great guy who loves a different lifestyle and more importantly is very strong in it and resistant to everything to the end (constant noise of many sorts at one time and lots of the fakest foods possible etc etc). Son realizes now that my partner's food choices are almost as unhealthy as humanly possible, but son is way past a lot of things. He is concerned his step dad may get sick/incapacitated from the tons junk-food he buys every day. If you want and son wants, talk with him. Maybe you can understand if explained, maybe not. But it would be up to him to do it if he wants.
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I don't have children, but I have nephews. I have Paleo nephews and junk food nephews, so I see both sides of the coin and the difference is mainly in what foods the parents have in the house. The earlier the children are started on Paleo, the easier it is, the later, the harder. One of my Paleo nephews once asked for "more broccoli, please," which is the only time in my life I've ever heard that request. :o The Inuit advise to make sure to give your children organs before they reach eight years of age. They believe it becomes impossible to get them to eat organs after that. It's not impossible, but difficult.
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One of my Paleo nephews once asked for "more broccoli, please," which is the only time in my life I've ever heard that request. :o The Inuit advise to make sure to give your children organs before they reach eight years of age. They believe it becomes impossible to get them to eat organs after that.
Son in question always liked all the vegetables and fruit and grains etc, other parents asked me how I got him to eat them, but he just liked those foods. He doesn't like certain spices. The only candy he really had before age of eight was spoons of molasses or one ingredient peanut butter, unless you count a package of prunes and their seeds. Organs though, that's a problem. I hope that's not true. I would like him to start eating liver. I ate organs before eight. Maybe therein lies the problem.
He can't eat many foods now, he gets too much reaction, no more grain and few vegetables. It bothers him somewhat, as he would like to eat them, especially because he only feels somewhat healthy now if he doesn't eat veges cooked.
My partner used to hunt, but discard all the organs. On the hunting trips he ate his snack foods, chips and such. Brought the meat all home for steaks only, from what he tells me. I doubt he ate even a bite of organ in his life. He would not touch many veges before we were heavily involved, unless they were canned and then heavily spiced with normal north american spices (onion garlic peppers salt pepper etc) fried etc. At least he less often touches canned and frozen now. He appreciates that fresh is healthier now.
I grew up eating vegetables from fresh, with only salt for seasoning on them if I chose at dinnertime at the dinner table.
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Looks like it's not only a D3 problem for hubbie (or maybe his levels aren't up there yet). Yesterday was a really bad day. His blood sugar went too far down, his pulse went really low as did his blood pressure and his temperature was low. I was able to bring him out of it with my little box of herbal tricks - but....... it was scary as hell. -\
We came to an agreement to give my food ideas a real trial. He's going to not eat any grains, any cooked tubers or squashes (too much carbohydrates) and really give this raw paleo thing a try. I'll eat whatever I have to as long as I have to to be a support to him as long as what I'm eating doesn't get me too weak or sick to be able to help him.
So this morning we had my "pie crust" which is soaked nuts and seeds of all kinds dehydrated, put into my food processor and then dates, water, vanilla, nutmeg and cinnamon added. On top of this berries including black, goji, blue, straw and raspberries. We had a few grapes later on.
Right before lunch there will be a carrot-based juice and then hamburger meat with egg yolk on it - his might be lightly cooked if he's not yet up to eating enough quantity of fully raw. He likes to put cumin and other Indian seasonings into the meat. It does taste good.
Then for dinner we will have salad and raw fish with avocado and sauce and some of my raw veggie soup.
We need to go out and get some marrow.
He said that he would continue in this vain for awhile and give it a good shot.
I now muscle test before taking any supplement or eating anything at all.
Fingers crossed!
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Does anyone here have any experience or knowledge of shark liver oil?
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Not one soul here has tried Shark Oil?!
Hubbies allergies are better but it is unclear what might be helping - even that we got some rain - probably a combination - but.........
my premonitions of things to come for him have changed. Dreams, visions, feelings - all have stopped.
I am pretty sure this is because of the vitamin d3. I think we're going to be ok now.
The allergies - well - worse come to worse we'll move to Hawaii.
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Not me, sorry.
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Not one soul here has tried Shark Oil?!..
my premonitions of things to come for him have changed. Dreams, visions, feelings - all have stopped.
..
The allergies - well - worse come to worse we'll move to Hawaii.
I saw it in the stores over twenty years ago. I was vegan so I didn't even look at the price, which I probably would have had a trying time paying for anyway. Sharks are amazing animals. Should be good. I heard alligator or crock blood to be fantastic too. I'm not into snake oil though, so Idk. Said son may. He seems to know everything about nutritional stuff, even though he eats "ethically" instead, like I was, fearing the meat, but not for parasites but for the soul or something. I'll ask him if he knows about shark oil tonight.
If you want a computer or lots of clothes in HI you may need climate control, watch out! They'll grow staining mold, if it rains all day every day hard. Does be have mold allergies?
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I saw it in the stores over twenty years ago. I was vegan so I didn't even look at the price, which I probably would have had a trying time paying for anyway. Sharks are amazing animals. Should be good. I heard alligator or crock blood to be fantastic too. I'm not into snake oil though, so Idk. Said son may. He seems to know everything about nutritional stuff, even though he eats "ethically" instead, like I was, fearing the meat, but not for parasites but for the soul or something. I'll ask him if he knows about shark oil tonight.
If you want a computer or lots of clothes in HI you may need climate control, watch out! They'll grow staining mold, if it rains all day every day hard. Does be have mold allergies?
Thanks Zi for asking your son for me. I've been doing some research - but you know how it is - sometimes best to ask some folks that you trust if they tried it. I look forward to hearing what he has to say.
Hubbie does have mold allergies and in Florida we had to keep the ac on to keep everything from turning to mold and rusting faster than you can blink. The mold problems have been much worse here in Texas than in Florida actually. It might be exactly the same in Hawaii - BUT - he had no allergies in Florida except the dreaded red tide which made everyone deathly ill when it came in. He then could spend more time outdoors at least. But in Florida I had a florida room we ate every meal in and I got to spend at least 8 hours a day outside. I could have at least some part of a house in Hawaii where we could live a lot of the time without ac - maybe even sleep outside sometimes.
But the idea of moving is a last resort - lots of stress - many problems involved. It would be massively better just to heal the guy up instead .... if we can.
He's making his own raw meat foods and sauces - which is a gigantic step. Yesterday he made his hamburger much more raw than I had seen him do before (barely cooked at all) and he's really into putting egg yolks on top instead of using bread (making sandwiches) now. He's still eating cooked vegetables - but that's ok. I think I can figure out ways to sway him to raw vegetables because I'm used to making raw vegetables taste good - if that's even what is best - I don't know. It might be best to just let him get used to eating more and more raw meat and fish and continue to concentrate on expanding that repertoire. It really does seem to do him good. I've been making him juices, which seem to be a good addition - as long as they aren't over-done.
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the dreaded red tide which made everyone deathly ill when it came in.
Sounds like the Nile turning to blood.
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He's making his own raw meat foods and sauces - which is a gigantic step.
I hope mine next. I'm a bit worried at the moment. I'd love to see a man preparing to eat good raw meats anyway. Good health is so integral.
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Is the shark oil heated and refined? If so, I'll stick with raw fermented cod liver oil and raw wild seafood.
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Sounds like the Nile turning to blood.
It's a red colored algae that doesn't turn the water colors - but can turn your face colors! It moves in every once in a while and if you live on or near the ocean - nasty. No one tells you about THAT before moving there!
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I hope mine next. I'm a bit worried at the moment. I'd love to see a man preparing to eat good raw meats anyway. Good health is so integral.
Worried about your man too? Sometimes it takes an extreme situation.
It isn't hurting that the feature article in his gym's magazine that he respects was on the paleo diet and that there was a big article on paleo in the Austin Statesman - both read yesterday!
Raw paleo was given a quick mention as part of it he said.
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Is the shark oil heated and refined? If so, I'll stick with raw fermented cod liver oil and raw wild seafood.
This was a really big point you made here Phil! Looks like shark oil, although filled with things that can help with Hubbie's neck, also is filled with heavy metals and toxins that need to be removed and I wasn't able to find any with those removed and still raw.
Never mind.
Thanks Phil.
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What was the magazine with the Paleo diet article?
I found the Austin Stateman article: http://www.austin360.com/food-drink/dining-at-home/adherents-to-paleo-diet-find-weight-loss-success-1956973.html (http://www.austin360.com/food-drink/dining-at-home/adherents-to-paleo-diet-find-weight-loss-success-1956973.html)
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Experience Life is published by Lifetime Fitness - hubbies gym - but people subscribe to it even if they aren't members.