Paleo Diet: Raw Paleo Diet and Lifestyle Forum
Other Raw-Animal-Food Diets (eg:- Primal Diet/Raw Version of Weston-Price Diet etc.) => Raw Weston Price => Topic started by: Fermenter Zym on October 31, 2011, 02:14:47 am
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I was first introduced to raw food through the Weston Price Foundation, although they ironically do not push raw foods (besides dairy) much because they do not wish to alienate the American people from their theory of high fat, animal foods being key for vibrant health.
Upon reading a lot of WP's research over the past year or two, I've found that Bone Broths are really only necessary when you eat cooked food. Pottenger showed in some studies that the hydrophilic nature of gelatin in broths attacts digestive enzymes to cooked food, which are normally hydrophobic. Pottenger pointed out if you eat raw foods, you do not need bone broth or gelatin because the enzyme content is so high and the foods are already hydrophilic on their own. Case in point, the Inuit were one of the only cultures WP studied that ate all raw, and despite being in the arctic regions of Canada (where a warm broth would think broth would be welcomed), they forwent it entirely -- because they simply didn't need it nutritionally.
I personally enjoy bone broth and still eat cooked foods for social situations so for now I'm going to mix as many of my cooked foods as I can with a reduced broth stock (read about reduction sauces here: http://www.westonaprice.org/food-features/broth-is-beautiful (http://www.westonaprice.org/food-features/broth-is-beautiful) ) to obtain the benefits of gelatin. I also always start a cooked meal with a raw fermented vegetable to prepare my digestive system.
Despite being cooked, Bone Broth feels nourishing, don't you think? Nothing beats a good soup in the winter.
Zym.
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I personally get headaches from broth. I tried it twice. Both times headache. So no more broth for me. ;)
I do eat almost 100% raw though. But I do tolerate shortly cooked stuff quite well otherwise, strangely.
Inger
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Do you eat dairy for calcium or do you find eating all raw you don't need as much Calcium, Inger?
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I do not eat dairy for calcium. I eat it occasionally but I do not feel optimal from it though. I eat wild greens. I believe they are good for calcium? I have no idea though..
Inger
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Not sure if it's really bioavailable from greens, but maybe. I would bet some wild greens like dandelion would be a good source, but I've never done the research.
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Not sure if it's really bioavailable from greens, but maybe. I would bet some wild greens like dandelion would be a good source, but I've never done the research.
The Bantu get most of their calcium from their vegetables. One doesn't need much calcium to get good bones.
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The Bantu get most of their calcium from their vegetables. One doesn't need much calcium to get good bones.
Very cool, Tyler. I didn't know that.
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Here's a link re the Bantu:-
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2466922/ (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2466922/)
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I have had several excellent doctors inform me that most diets are not deficient in calcium but rather, they are highly deficient in the minerals and vitamin k that allow calcium to be absorbed.
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I always heard that the vitamins in most greens are hard for us to assimilate, unless the greens are at least somewhat cooked. Also, that the vitamins are much better absorbed if the greens are eaten with a fat. Can someone comment on why that is true/untrue?
Thanks!
~Sile
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I always heard that the vitamins in most greens are hard for us to assimilate, unless the greens are at least somewhat cooked. Also, that the vitamins are much better absorbed if the greens are eaten with a fat. Can someone comment on why that is true/untrue?
Thanks!
~Sile
I don't eat greens very often. Cooking them does make them more digestible, but it also creates toxins as well, so it's a tradeoff.
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Thanks for your reply!
Are there other plant foods that are more easily digested without being cooked?
What kinds of toxins are produced when plants are cooked?
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Toxins include advanced glycation end products, which are linked to increased rates of aging.
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Thanks for your reply!
Are there other plant foods that are more easily digested without being cooked?
Fruits are usually the easiest to digest.
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Thanks; that does make sense. : )
So, back on the topic of bone broth (sorry for getting OT, there!), do you think it is beneficial perhaps more so in the early stages of starting a raw diet (as well as being eaten in conjunction with cooked foods, as was mentioned before), when more nourishment is needed for healing? I have been eating a lot of bone broth lately, and it really feels good for my body. What do you all think? I'd really like to be able to keep eating it!
Would it be better to eat it at seperate times than when I'm eating raw meat, though?
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bone broth...hmmm! cooking in low heat for a longer period of times? still it could be toxic, using toxic gas to cook.
to obtain a good source of calcium, try wild greens, fresh raw juice.
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What do you mean by toxic gas?
As far as I know, cooking something in a liquid, at a low heat, for a longer period of time is better than cooking something at a higher heat for short time (like frying), correct?
Sorry for all the newbie questions! : )
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I would eat the marrow separately. Marrow should be eaten raw, IMO. Heating the bones at maybe 120 F for an hour or two will probably not cause any major toxic stuff to form. I don't really recommend it, I think you'd be better off using a file to grind it down, and then eating the ground bone, but I don't think it will do major harm.
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Bone-broths are a waste of time, as one can easily get all the nutrients one needs from eating raw foods. Bone-broths are possibly useful when eating deficient, cooked diets full of grains and other rubbish(such as the Weston-Price Diet) but should otherwise be avoided. Also, they interfere with raw foods' digestion if eaten together, plus the body will need a bit of time to deal with the toxins from the cooked bone-broth rather than healing the body.
Cooking in moisture is "less worse" than other forms of cooking. It is true that cooking at lower temperatures for longer periods is better than cooking at higher temperatures for short periods.
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Tyler--do you have any links to articles or studies etc... that talk about why it is easier to get nutrients and easier to digest raw foods? I've been looking around here, but I'm guessing you'd be able to locate these things a lot quicker than me!
Something I am specifically looking for is an explanation that refutes the theory that all of the enzymes and stuff that make raw food more digestible/easier to get nutrients from are all destroyed in the HCL of the stomach, which is a form of "cooking" anyway. And also, that we've been cooking foods for long enough to be evolved to eat them, and that they are the reason we were able to get enough nourishment to grow bigger brains.
Sorry, I would just keep searching around here, but I just don't have time today. I did read the article posted on the thread for newbies, but I am wondering if there are other ones too?
Thanks!!
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zillions others.....
Here are 2 articles demonstrating why the notion that cooking led to bigger brains is dead wrong, and why it might have led to smaller brains in the end....:-
http://www.rawpaleodiet.com/when-did-humans-begin-to-cook/ (http://www.rawpaleodiet.com/when-did-humans-begin-to-cook/)
http://old.rawpaleodiet.com/non-wrangham-theories-of-cooking-debunked/ (http://old.rawpaleodiet.com/non-wrangham-theories-of-cooking-debunked/)
The Sally Fallon enzymes article explains why enzymes in raw foods are so essentially needed etc.:-
http://www.realmilk.com/enzyme.html (http://www.realmilk.com/enzyme.html)
Only enzymes get destroyed, and then only in the lower stomach. Bacteria (mostly) get destroyed after digestion, but not wholly, which is why gut-bacteria are so essential for eventual digestion. "High-meat", being more bacteria-rich than fresh, raw meats, is best for adding bacteria to the digestive tract.
More studies on why raw foods are easier to digest than cooked foods etc.:-
Losses of nutrients caused by cooking:-
http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1O39-cookinglossofnutrients.html (http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1O39-cookinglossofnutrients.html)
http://nutritiondata.self.com/topics/processing (http://nutritiondata.self.com/topics/processing)
Info on negative effects of cooking on raw meat re reduction in digestion etc.:-
"http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1897402
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/food.19870311007/abstract;jsessionid=C4D468D92AFC1F95D1C9221E3BBBED3F.d01t04 (http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/food.19870311007/abstract;jsessionid=C4D468D92AFC1F95D1C9221E3BBBED3F.d01t04)
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/food.19870311007/abstract (http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/food.19870311007/abstract)
The HCL in the stomach has NOTHING whatsoever to do with the processes of cooking. This notion is ridiculous. Perhaps Iguana can provide the relevant data as to why this HCL/Cooking theory is so laughable:-
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Thanks for posting all those links for me Tyler, you rock!! <3
I'll definitely be spending some time going through them all. I really want to get my husband on board with this (as well as understand the science behind it myself) and he is only convinced by logic. Me, I'm more 50% logic and 50% go-with-my-gut-feelings.
I do hope Iguana chimes in! : )
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TylerDurden, your post is so so so useful. I eat 4-5 pieces of grass-fed beef bone marrow every day now, and I hate to just toss it into the trash, and been looking at trying bone broth.
From your info, I've decided that it is better to waste the marrow-less bones than to introduce cooked toxins into my body through bone broth. I've tried it a couple of times and it has felt harder to digest than raw meat/marrow etc. obviously I guess...haha I wish I had dogs though, so the bones wouldn't be such a waste. Here in Hong Kong, grass-fed meat/bones are so expensive.
1kg of grassfed bones is $100 HKD = $12.8934 USD
Thanks again.
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http://www.townsendletter.com/FebMarch2005/broth0205.htm (http://www.townsendletter.com/FebMarch2005/broth0205.htm)
Traditional Bone Broth in Modern Health and Disease
http://www.jadeinstitute.com/jade/bone-broth-health-building.php (http://www.jadeinstitute.com/jade/bone-broth-health-building.php)
Bone Broth for Health Building: Nourishing the Liver and Kidneys
http://www.westonaprice.org/food-features/broth-is-beautiful (http://www.westonaprice.org/food-features/broth-is-beautiful)
Broth is Beautiful
http://www.marksdailyapple.com/cooking-with-bones/#axzz1qMmMlOSo (http://www.marksdailyapple.com/cooking-with-bones/#axzz1qMmMlOSo)
Cooking with Bones
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I've been on the GAPS diet for over 6 months, eating meat and bone broths almost every day. It did make my nails very strong for the first time in my life. So I guess it was good for me..
But I am so happy that I don't have to cook it anymore since I'm on the raw diet now!
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Well, I"m thinking about all this and you all make alot of sense. Thanks.
So, it seems, all the health benefits of gelatin/bone broth and getting the benefits of eating the whole animal with their higher gelatin content in feet, heads, and such only is necessary for cooked food eaters.
It is clear that -- at least for cooked eaters -- gnawing on bones (to get that connective tissue) and feet and ears and skin in the diet provides alot of necessary health benefits. I like Ray Peat's article on gelatin for that. http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/gelatin.shtml (http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/gelatin.shtml)
But I was wondering while I'm eating all raw if I needed the skin, feet and other high gelatin parts. It is difficult to eat "the whole animal" when it's raw. You all seem to be fine on just muscle and organ meats as long as it's raw.
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how do you scoop out the frozen marrow from the frozen bones? do you need to heat it until melts?
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how do you scoop out the frozen marrow from the frozen bones? do you need to heat it until melts?
Leave at room-temperature for many hours to warm it.
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IMO bone broth is really healthy even for us raw animal food eaters... its just too healing to not eat it... this is will be my only cooked/heated food i will eat: bone broth.
i eat only: raw mince beef, raw organs, raw eggs, raw milk kefir, raw coconut cream, raw butter, raw cream, raw cheese types and maybe some back fat here and there..and I will add about 1 to 2 cups of bone broth EVERY DAY, i will drink/eat it with my raw animal meals.
Its just too healing. People are reporting amazing results in healing the gut with broth fasts. Im on raw animal food diet for 2 months and I still have leaky gut. Cooked food eaters when add broth, they heal their gut very fast.
But hey, this is just MY choice to add the broth.
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keep us informed as to how it seems to work long term. Also you'll see that this overall diet that you've adopted will heal most things nicely period. Don't feel for a moment that you're not doing what is right for you by including bone broth.
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I am with Van on this :)
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You don't need to cook the bone (or other animal parts) to make broth. I recall a study that found that soaking bone in slightly acidic water at room temperature extracts more Calcium than when the broth is heated. Also, you can use fermentation to make a broth. Start with a large container of water, add in shredded vegetables like beets or cabbage as if you were going to make a vegetable-based kvass. Add a little salt to favor lactic acid bacteria, then add in pieces of bone. As the lactic acid bacteria eat the carbs in the vegetables they'll release lactic acid, and the acid will leach calcium, magnesium and probably other things from the bone. Fermentation tends to accentuate the bioavailability of minerals, so this beverage, once fermented for a week or so, will become biologically and minerally rich.
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This was amazing stuff what you posted there Eric! Have you tried to do this yourself? How did that taste, is it sour, like sauerkraut?
I want to try this.....
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I would like to see the study. Hopefully it was a lab report and not hearsay. Bones tend to go 'off' pretty quickly with some smelly types bacteria,, got to wonder how the fermentation would go..
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The bone broth study is McCance et al (1934) Bone and vegetable broth. Archives of Disease in Childhood, Vol. 9, Pages 251-258. If you have trouble sourcing it, email me and I'll send you the PDF.
Bones can go 'off' pretty quickly, but for this to happen oxygen needs to be present. In fermented vegetable recipes there is very little or no oxygen; fermentation is primarily an anoxic process. The lack of oxygen preserves the bones, as does the acidity generated during fermentation as the bacteria eat the carbs in the vegetables and give off lactic acid as a waste product. This is why it's not uncommon to find perfectly preserved human and animal remains in peat bogs, because the acidity in the bogs prevents the remains' decay.
I have made the broth I mentioned. I did a lot of experimenting over this past winter, and reached a point where I was happy enough with it that I expect I'll never make another heated broth again. I usually use red cabbage or beets as the vegetable to start the fermentation as I really like the taste of broths based on these vegetables, although I often also put in some shredded ginger and turmeric as these are both anti-inflammatory and do add a little kick to it. I haven't drank much broth over the summer though, so I haven't made any in a few months. I might see if I can find some bones just to make some again, and might even do a blog post featuring the recipe.
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A more detailed post for a recipe would be very nice :)
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The bone broth study is McCance et al (1934) Bone and vegetable broth. Archives of Disease in Childhood, Vol. 9, Pages 251-258. If you have trouble sourcing it, email me and I'll send you the PDF.
Bones can go 'off' pretty quickly, but for this to happen oxygen needs to be present. In fermented vegetable recipes there is very little or no oxygen; fermentation is primarily an anoxic process. The lack of oxygen preserves the bones, as does the acidity generated during fermentation as the bacteria eat the carbs in the vegetables and give off lactic acid as a waste product. This is why it's not uncommon to find perfectly preserved human and animal remains in peat bogs, because the acidity in the bogs prevents the remains' decay.
I have made the broth I mentioned. I did a lot of experimenting over this past winter, and reached a point where I was happy enough with it that I expect I'll never make another heated broth again. I usually use red cabbage or beets as the vegetable to start the fermentation as I really like the taste of broths based on these vegetables, although I often also put in some shredded ginger and turmeric as these are both anti-inflammatory and do add a little kick to it. I haven't drank much broth over the summer though, so I haven't made any in a few months. I might see if I can find some bones just to make some again, and might even do a blog post featuring the recipe.
hi, yeah I doubt I'd find it, my email is van@mcn.org thanks Eric
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The bone broth study is McCance et al (1934) Bone and vegetable broth. Archives of Disease in Childhood, Vol. 9, Pages 251-258. If you have trouble sourcing it, email me and I'll send you the PDF.
Bones can go 'off' pretty quickly, but for this to happen oxygen needs to be present. In fermented vegetable recipes there is very little or no oxygen; fermentation is primarily an anoxic process. The lack of oxygen preserves the bones, as does the acidity generated during fermentation as the bacteria eat the carbs in the vegetables and give off lactic acid as a waste product. This is why it's not uncommon to find perfectly preserved human and animal remains in peat bogs, because the acidity in the bogs prevents the remains' decay.
I have made the broth I mentioned. I did a lot of experimenting over this past winter, and reached a point where I was happy enough with it that I expect I'll never make another heated broth again. I usually use red cabbage or beets as the vegetable to start the fermentation as I really like the taste of broths based on these vegetables, although I often also put in some shredded ginger and turmeric as these are both anti-inflammatory and do add a little kick to it. I haven't drank much broth over the summer though, so I haven't made any in a few months. I might see if I can find some bones just to make some again, and might even do a blog post featuring the recipe.
Are (whole) chicken feet acceptable in this raw bone broth?
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You don't need to cook the bone (or other animal parts) to make broth. I recall a study that found that soaking bone in slightly acidic water at room temperature extracts more Calcium than when the broth is heated. Also, you can use fermentation to make a broth. Start with a large container of water, add in shredded vegetables like beets or cabbage as if you were going to make a vegetable-based kvass. Add a little salt to favor lactic acid bacteria, then add in pieces of bone. As the lactic acid bacteria eat the carbs in the vegetables they'll release lactic acid, and the acid will leach calcium, magnesium and probably other things from the bone. Fermentation tends to accentuate the bioavailability of minerals, so this beverage, once fermented for a week or so, will become biologically and minerally rich.
does acid extract the gelatin too?
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Are (whole) chicken feet acceptable in this raw bone broth?
I've never put whole chicken feet in the bone broth I make, but I don't see why not.
does acid extract the gelatin too?
Good question. I don't know for sure, but acid does digest gelatin in our stomachs so it seems reasonable to me that it would predigest gelatin in a broth, if present. I think that's why Sally Fallon suggests putting a little vinegar in bone broth recipes.