Paleo Diet: Raw Paleo Diet and Lifestyle Forum
Raw Paleo Diet Forums => General Discussion => Topic started by: Polyvore on September 23, 2012, 05:24:41 pm
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"There is only a small loss of nitrogen when bones are soaked in water
at room temperature, but the loss of salts is comparable with that at 100 C."
http://adc.bmj.com/content/9/52/251 (http://adc.bmj.com/content/9/52/251)
Salts including iron, calcium and magnesium, are better extracted in cool to warm temperatures. I would imagine it is better to make a broth in a yogurt warmer (37 C) than it is to cook the bones! The 37 C would allow the marrow to seep out into the broth, but wouldn't cook.
Who would have known? Everyone just ASSUMES you need to cook bones to get the calcium into the water, but it seems it does it on its own without your stupid 'cooking help'. Here is to raw nutrition, again!
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Wow! This is amazing info! Wow is all I can say.
So now I can just soak my leftover bones (after extracting marrow) in water?! and I can then drink the raw broth for calcium and minerals from bone? This is so awesome!
Thanks so much for sharing this! Now I can finally not feel guilty for dumping piles of marrow-less bones into the trash...and use them for some nutritional purposes.
I'll probably decide to soak the grass-fed beef bones in natural spring water for up to a day, just to make sure that most of the minerals have leeched into the water.
I can't get over how shocking this is - in a good way of course!
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I could be mistaken here, and I don't want to rain on anyone's parade, however, if I'm gathering correctly, it's saying that the solubility of nutrients FROM the bones TO the water is lower in the room temp water (which is as you would expect, intuitive) than in the boiled water. When you read 'loss' which is used constantly in the paper do not read it as "absolute loss or oxidation of nutrients" but instead as 'loss' of minerals from bone to water (solvent).
Still, cool to know that the minerals do indeed leech in to room temp water, I wonder how the type of water would affect solubility. ie distilled vs spring vs alkaline, etc
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Thoth, well that's how Polyvore interpreted it too :p
It's saying that cooking the bones will extract more protein (gelatin), while soaking (not cooking) will extract slightly more minerals.
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I thought the mineral loss was from the bone, so the higher the mineral loss, the better the broth yield.
Also, for egg eaters out there, don't throw away your shells, either, when you can clean out the inside of the shells and then make an egg shell broth.
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Salts including iron, calcium and magnesium, are better extracted in cool to warm temperatures.
I interpreted 'better' as more completely/efficiently/faster, and hence my comments. Just for sake of clarity, otherwise of no consequence! Neat paper thanks for sharing!
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Calcium is the only mineral that is more soluble in cold water than in warm water.
Random fact.
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Also, for egg eaters out there, don't throw away your shells, either, when you can clean out the inside of the shells and then make an egg shell broth.
Do you know of some similar paper about egg shells? Like what kind of minerals are extracted in the broth.
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Sorry no, it was an assumption. But egg shells disintegrate much quicker than bone, which is why I said so.
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You probably wouldn't even need to clean the egg shells out as the membrane and anything else would have minerals in them too!
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From what I read, it seems that potassium was found to be a bit better extracted from the bones at 100 degrees celsius (212 F, ie boiling) vs. room temperature, whereas iron, calcium and magnesium were better extracted at room temp. The latter nutrients were increased with the addition of plants only at 100 C. Sodium and chlorine extraction were apparently unaffected by temp. Gelatine, and possibly fat, were better extracted at the higher temp. The authors did not conclude that raw broth was just as good as boiled, but did conclude that soaking bones for several hours in cold water then adding veggies and boiling for an hour would be just as good as boiling the bones for several hours.
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Neat article, thanks for the note. Maybe soaking bones is a good way to make natural mineral water?
On another topic, I just bought a farrier's rasp with the intention of filing bones to powder, then using the powdered bone to dust raw meat and organs. My goal is to find ways to eat the bone and have it digest well, eliminating the need to cook it in order to get both its minerals and collagen. Any other ideas how I might do this?
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Not off the top of my head Eric, but is there any concern about heavy metals being filed in to your food along with it?
More than a couple people here I think cut with ceramic knives because obviously the dulling effect is the wear of the metal on and into the food being cut. Seems like the same principle would be at work here but even more pronounced since bone is so hard. Just a thought.
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On another topic, I just bought a farrier's rasp with the intention of filing bones to powder, then using the powdered bone to dust raw meat and organs. My goal is to find ways to eat the bone and have it digest well, eliminating the need to cook it in order to get both its minerals and collagen. Any other ideas how I might do this?
It should work to some extent, see http://gut.bmj.com/content/19/3/240.full.pdf (http://gut.bmj.com/content/19/3/240.full.pdf)
It is clear frorn the results that native collagen is
digested and absorbed by the rat and a Gaboon
viper. In the rat the evidence was that it was
absorbed in the small gut, so that presumably
bacteria are not concerned in the breakdown. From
the experiments in vitro it seems that the combination
of pepsin at acid pH in the stomach followed by
neutral proteases in pancreatic juice could break
down the triple helix.
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My goal is to find ways to eat the bone and have it digest well, eliminating the need to cook it in order to get both its minerals and collagen. Any other ideas how I might do this?
On an NPR radio program called Science Friday, there was an episode about an experiment in which a small animal - a shrew - was swallowed whole. Then, the feces (UK translation: faeces) of the shrew-eater were examined to determine the state of digestion of the bones of the shrew. The findings were that the bones had been digested. http://sciencefriday.com/segment/09/07/2012/the-importance-of-strange-science.html (http://sciencefriday.com/segment/09/07/2012/the-importance-of-strange-science.html)
On an earlier post on this forum, a poster mentioned swallowing whole chunks of raw tendon, which seemed to digest just fine. In light of the shrew experiment, this makes sense.
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On an NPR radio program called Science Friday, there was an episode about an experiment in which a small animal - a shrew - was swallowed whole. Then, the feces (UK translation: faeces) of the shrew-eater were examined to determine the state of digestion of the bones of the shrew. The findings were that the bones had been digested. http://sciencefriday.com/segment/09/07/2012/the-importance-of-strange-science.html (http://sciencefriday.com/segment/09/07/2012/the-importance-of-strange-science.html)
On an earlier post on this forum, a poster mentioned swallowing whole chunks of raw tendon, which seemed to digest just fine. In light of the shrew experiment, this makes sense.
I have trouble digesting large chunks of raw tendon, myself. However, I imagine I'd probably digest a shrew just fine. I've never tried, though. That might be interesting.
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It makes sense, our digestive system is made to melt that kind of stuff down.
Next time I see a bite sized rodent running around the farm here I will woof it and see how that goes.
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broth is made for its gelatin and other nutrients to heal the gut... fasting on bone broth for minimum 7 days will heal the gut. 3- 4 quarts per day.
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On the topic of raw bone broths, I've been experimenting for the past year with making bone broth using fermentation. Basically I start as if I'm making some sort of fermented beverage, kvass-style. I use half-gallon mason jars, cut or grate 1-2 cups of nutrient-dense, starchy vegetable - beets, carrots, burdock root or some other root, or red cabbage - and put it in the jar. Next add a decently sized chunk of bone, ideally with connective tissue, fat and even some shreds of meat left on. Fill the jar with water, add a few pinches of unrefined sea salt (perhaps 1/4 teaspoon) and swish the mixture to mix everything nicely. Then let it sit at room temperature for a week or two, or three.
The vegetables will start fermenting, releasing lactic acid along with all sorts of other beneficial things. The acid will help to draw alkaline minerals like calcium and magnesium out of the bone, and bacteria will start eating the physical components of the bone, liberating them into the solution as parts of the bacteria floating about. When the fermentation has used up most of the sugars in the vegetables, the broth is ready to drink (if you let it continue fermenting, other bacteria will start turning the lactic acid into acetic acid, aka vinegar).
I've noticed that when I do this, much of the fat melts off the bones and forms droplets on top of the liquid, much like when you make cooked broth. I've also noticed that most of the soft tissue on the bones is either gone or very mushy by the time the bone is removed, suggesting some serious bacterial activity there. I've finally noticed that the bone is noticeably more porous at the end than when I put it in, suggesting some of the proteins that make it up were eaten by bacteria or dissolved by the acid and entered the solution. At any rate, this seems like a workable way to make bone broth without heat.
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Eric, how does your raw bone broth taste?
Are the bones you use fresh, never-frozen bones? Do you think pre-frozen bones will do?
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Brilliant Eric! This is the sort of useful and little-known info that is the best aspect of this forum. About how long would you estimate that you let the mix ferment? Do you leave the lids loose or take any other precaution to avoid explosion from gasses?
Most people also are unaware that dogs bury bones to not only hide them from other animals, but also to anaerobically ferment them. Thus, a domesticated dog in a fenced-in property that has no fear of his bones being swiped will likely nonetheless bury some if given the chance.
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This post is making me want to start fermenting again!
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Joy, I think the broth tastes quite nice. Because the alkaline minerals are being leached from the bone by the lactic acid, the end beverage doesn't have the harsh, acidic taste of a typical fermented beverage. Inspired by your question, I'm going to pick up some pH strips while running errands later this morning and test a batch of finished broth to see what the pH is. I don't expect it to be alkaline, but I also don't expect it to be terribly acidic either.
Most of the bones I get have been frozen. Those seem to work fine. I have two 1/2 gallon jars that I started fermenting yesterday, and used a few pieces of rib bones in each. I'm also on the lookout for larger jars that I can fit larger bones into without having to saw them, as I have a bunch of femur knuckles that are too large to fit into my normal fermenting jars.
Phil, good point! I'd never thought of animals burying bones to ferment them, but given the temperature of the ground and the bacteria present it makes all the sense in the world. Any knowledge of studies articulating why that benefits the dogs? Does it make elements of the bone more digestible?
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No studies. Yes, it makes the bones more digestible, and yummy. :D
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Fill the jar with water, add a few pinches of unrefined sea salt
Is it possible to prepare this bone broth without adding salt?
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I'm not sure, I haven't tried. Are you concerned about salt? The few pinches I suggest adding are a very small amount compared to the ~1/2 gallon of water. You can't even hardly taste it. It's not like a traditional fermentation recipe where you add 1-3 tablespoons to 1/2 gallon of shredded, pounded vegetables.
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Just tried testing the pH. I'm guessing the pH of my most recent batch is about 5.0, but this level is at the very edge of the range the pH tape I bought was designed to test for so I can't be sure how accurate this is. Also, the batch of fermented broth I made was made with beets as the fermentation vegetable, which discolors the liquid and dyed the pH strip a reddish hue that makes it hard to gauge its color. Hmm, might have to try another way...
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I'm also on the lookout for larger jars that I can fit larger bones into without having to saw them, as I have a bunch of femur knuckles that are too large to fit into my normal fermenting jars.
I got my low-price one-gallon glass jars from a restaurant supply store. The restaurant supply store sold them (filled with pickles, which I gave away) for around $8, half the price of a new one-gallon canning jar. You might get an empty one from a restaurant. I'd also ask on Freecycle.
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Eric, when your raw bone broth is done, do you place it in a refrigerator to preserve it?
Taste-wise, when is the best time to drink the raw broth after the day you start fermenting it?
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Eric, when your raw bone broth is done, do you place it in a refrigerator to preserve it?
Taste-wise, when is the best time to drink the raw broth after the day you start fermenting it?
Adding animal parts to fermenting vegetables is common practice in Korean kimchi making, where the addition of animal parts does not change the basic fermentation process. In that case, the degree of fermentation is determined by ambient temperatures and taste preferences. Somewhere on this forum, PaleoPhil posted charts showing the rate of leaching of calcium from bones into water (in hours, not days). In that case, vinegar or lemon juice can help. In a vegetable ferment, the pH of the ferment develops over a few days, creating the acidic environment.
The best time to drink the raw broth (or any other ferment) would be at the end of fermentation (when bubbling ceases), but some tastebuds prefer a different degree of fermentation. In the case of kimchi or sauerkraut, somewhere around 55 degrees F. is good for long term storage. In an American kitchen, the refrigerator will keep the ferment more-or-less steady, but the process of fermentation does continue slowly at cool temperatures. The vegetables get mushy if storage is too cold for a long period of time.
Eric's method can be done by fermenting and eating/drinking, so storage is not the aim. The questions you ask can be answered by experimentation in your climate.
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Eric, when your raw bone broth is done, do you place it in a refrigerator to preserve it?
I don't. What I do is let the broth acidify enough to suit my tastes, which usually takes 4-6 days. At this point the broth's acid enough that any really bad bacteria will probably be dead, so I'll just start drinking from the container until it's gone. Usually as soon as I start drinking from one container, I'll also start the next batch going so I always have some ready to drink.
Also, on the topic of vessels, I noted above that I was on the lookout for a vessel with a wider mouth so I could put larger pieces of bone in it. SCORE! I was searching the web for just such a vessel, and found that Anchor makes what they call a Hocking Jar (http://www.anchorhocking.com/prodd_4057_cat_82_jar_with_cover.html) with a lid on it that will work just fine for what I'm doing. The jar has a nice wide mouth, its lid covers thoroughly without sealing so gasses can escape, and it's durable and easy to clean. I found the 2 gallon version at my local Walmart for $10 each, and bought two earlier today. Can't beat that as far as value!
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I'm not sure, I haven't tried. Are you concerned about salt?
No, not really. But I try to leave my food as much in its natural state as possible - unseasoned, unmixed etc. So if it is not necessary to salt a food, I won’t do it. In fact, I don't salt or season anything.
However, when fermenting vegetables, isn't it necessary to add salt in order to prevent alcoholic fermentation and rotting?
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Hi Hanna, salt doesn't prevent rotting, it merely guides it. Fermentation is one of many processes that involve bacteria or fungi breaking down a once living organism during its decay process. Salt limits the species of bacteria that can live on or in a substrate to primarily lactic acid bacteria, which 'rot' the substrate in a very particular way, yielding the type of tastes and textures some of us have come to appreciate. That said, you don't have to use salt to ferment vegetables, you can do so without adding salt. It's just that if you don't add salt, there's a possibility that a different suite of bacteria will dominate and the rotting will not yield the kind of end-product you'd like. I've done a few salt-free fermentations, and they've worked fine.
Adding salt doesn't prevent alcoholic fermentation. This is prevented by choosing the right substrate that's not too high in sugar. If you use salt to ferment kombucha and add a lot of sugar, you'll eventually end up with a decent alcohol percentage if you let the fermentation go long enough.
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Eveheart and Eric, thanks.
One more question: It seems the lid for the vessel cannot seal too tightly? So canning jars will not do? What about ordinary glass bowl covered with something? What about corningware?
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No, you don't want a lid that seals. You want air to be able to escape. You can still use a mason jar lid, just don't screw it on tight enough that it seals tight. You do want to put something on your broth jar as a cover though, otherwise fruit flies will get in and you'll have a bunch of dead flies on top of your broth, which is yucky (technical term).
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I found the 2 gallon version at my local Walmart for $10 each, and bought two earlier today. Can't beat that as far as value!
Cool, thanks.
My understanding is that rotting is any decay process, including those involving microbes which are pathogenic to humans. Whereas what people refer to as "fermentation" typically involves beneficial microbes.
When most people talk of rotting, they seem to imply an unwanted process that produces particularly foul odors and dangerous substances. For beneficial processes, people typically use the term "fermentation."
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No, you don't want a lid that seals. You want air to be able to escape. You can still use a mason jar lid, just don't screw it on tight enough that it seals tight. You do want to put something on your broth jar as a cover though, otherwise fruit flies will get in and you'll have a bunch of dead flies on top of your broth, which is yucky (technical term).
Thanks. So any glass bowl with a cover will do.
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What about using Fish with bones in fermentation process? Are fish broths equally good as bone broths from lamb etc?
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Excellent question zaidi, I don't know. If you've got a supply of fish bones from waters you're confident aren't polluted, I'd give it a try!
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Eveheart and Eric, do you think it will work if I use miso instead of sea salt?
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Eveheart and Eric, do you think it will work if I use miso instead of sea salt?
"It" will "work" with nothing but plain water, but then you'd have a possible problem with undesired bacteria. The day and night temperatures play a major role - Eric in Vermont ferments longer than I do in California.
Miso is made with the same salt that you would add to your ferment. Miso also adds a flavor that you may or may not like. If it's the flavor that you're after, why not stir in some miso before drinking the finished broth? If it's the salt you're after, you can try with miso (in varying amounts) and see if you like it, but it might add complications for a beginner.
Sometimes, I like to add fish sauce, not miso, to fermenting vegetables when I start a batch. Or hot peppers. Or ginger. Or onions/garlic. Etc. There is a Japanese fermenting style called tsukemono, of which some variations use miso.
I use canning jars because they are sturdy and cheap. Ferments can build up pressure and bubble over, so put your container a bowl.
Why not make a plain batch and experiment with flavors once you got the hang of it. There are exactly a bazillion fermentation recipes in the world!
I like the author Sandor Ellix Katz. His website is www.wildfermentation.com (http://www.wildfermentation.com).
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Thanks. I will start with plain salt then.
Can all vegetables be fermented in this raw bone broth? Or certain kinds of vegetables are preferred?
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Preparing bone broth in a traditional way(boiling for 24- 72 hours) heals the gut of non-RAF-ers...this should tell us something.
I guess it tells us that bone broth traditionally prepared is a symphony of nutrients which heals the gut: gelatin(HIGH in SPECIFIC gut healing/regenerating amino acids), glucosamine, chondroitin, minerals, vitamins and more.
Im planning to do a 7 days bone broth fast to heal my stomach/intestines.
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Indeed traditional bone broths can heal the gut for some people. They also take lots of energy, offer zero probiotics or prebiotics, and the proteins and amino acids are damaged somewhat by the heat. I suspect a raw version that creates the broth using a fermentation process rather than heat adds a lot more of value.
Good luck on your broth fast, let us know how it goes.
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what do you mean by ''some people''? lol... everybody human got the same gut... everybody needs the proline, glycine, glutamine, proline and the other aminoacids, condroithin, glucosamine, minerals, vitamins from the broth the repair SPECIFICALLY the gut.
if all the nutrients in the broth are good enough to heal the human gastrointestinal tract, especially the gut of the cooked food eaters, then it means that the bone broth prepared in traditional way is special.
Even native american indians drank bone broth in place of water(''herbed'' water, probably tea). Native indians who were 6.5- 7 feet tall with super muscular and strong body living well over 100 years in perfect health.
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Political Atheist, cooked foods, including bone broth, do not sit well with me, however, I'm aware of claims that they are helpful to some people.
You are posting on the raw section of this forum, in a thread that is labeled as raw bone broths. Perhaps there is a better section for your experience and knowledge of cooked foods, such as your journal.
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I understand the drive to latch on to certain strategies as things that fix everyone. In reality, those usually don't measure up.
There are a lot of reasons why someone might have gut problems, and lack of nutrients supplied by bone broth is only one of them. I've personally met people who tried hard to heal themselves using bone broth, believing it to be the cure-all you make it out to be. They might have enjoyed some benefits, but it didn't deliver everything they expected and certainly wasn't the cure-all they were looking for.
For some people, as Eveheart noted, the fact that the broth's been cooked for a long time and delivers a range of heat-damaged amino acids, proteins and fats as well as heat-created toxins can be a source of irritation, sometimes even inflammation. All I'm doing is inviting you to be open-minded as you enter into your bone broth fast so as to be aware of what it's doing that's beneficial, and what it's doing that might not be.
Having used cooked bone broths for years before trying my raw fermented versions, I think I'll be sticking with the raw versions from here on. I have no fancy scientific studies that factor into this decision, just experience, just a sense of how I feel drinking cooked bone broths versus a sense of how I feel drinking raw, fermented versions.
Best of luck on your fast!
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bone broths are/were used to put healthy muscle and weight on thin people, and to heal flu/colds and any other disease(the saying: a GOOD broth will heal any ailment)... yeah... all disease begins in the gut and all healing begins in the gut. if the gut is healthy, then the other parts of the body will heal soon.
probably those people who dont get ''delivered' with broth' were not eating enough broth and they didnt prepared the broth properly with the proper ingredients.
you cant go against 5000 years of wisdom and real life experience.
heat damaged proteins, fats? well 5000+ year old wisdom and real life experience tells us that they are good enough to heal any disease, then they are good enough for me.
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I just invite you to remain open-minded about what the broth is doing that's beneficial and what it might be doing that isn't so beneficial. Just because people have been relying on a healing modality for a long time doesn't mean it works. People are rationalizing animals, not rational ones.
Good luck on your broth fast.
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Having used cooked bone broths for years before trying my raw fermented versions, I think I'll be sticking with the raw versions from here on. I have no fancy scientific studies that factor into this decision, just experience, just a sense of how I feel drinking cooked bone broths versus a sense of how I feel drinking raw, fermented versions.
Will you be more specific about your experience with regards to how your felt while drinking cooked broth versus how your are feeling drinking raw broth?
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Sure. Cooked broths always left me with a heavy feeling in my gut. No discomfort beyond this, just a heavy feeling. I don't get this with fermented versions.
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When most people talk of rotting, they seem to imply an unwanted process that produces particularly foul odors and dangerous substances.
This unwanted process is what I meant by „rotting“ (didn’t know the appropriate English term).
Is it possible to ferment cauliflower and kohlrabi - perhaps even without salt? There are some in our garden, too many to eat at once…
P.S.: Concerning kohlrabi, I just found this: http://www.ehow.com/how_7524079_ferment-kohlrabi.html (http://www.ehow.com/how_7524079_ferment-kohlrabi.html)
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This unwanted process is what I meant by „rotting“ (didn’t know the appropriate English term).
Is it possible to ferment cauliflower and kohlrabi - perhaps even without salt? There are some in our garden, too many to eat at once…
To rot means to break down with bacteria or fungus. The scientific term is to decompose. Rotting may or may not be an unwanted process. If you want a word that implies an unwanted process, to spoil is more appropriate.
All the vegetables you mentioned ferment well. The amount of salt, or absence of salt, in the fermentation process is variable and depends on how hot/cold the temperature is, how long you want to keep the vegetables, and what your taste buds prefer.
Fermentation of food is easy, but practice makes a better product. Like any other culinary art, you might have failures, but you get better at it the more you make. I think there is enough information on the internet to learn how to ferment food.
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Technical definitions aside, when people talk of a food being "rotten," they normally mean that an unwanted process occurred. "Fermented" is a more clearly positive term and will be less likely to be offputting to others, though even that turns off some squeamish folks. I've seen Internet critics use the word "rotten" when they want to disparage fermented foods and discourage others from trying them.
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Hey everyone,
I added about 800g/1.8lbs pork neck bones & 225g/0.5lbs of beef liver, some collard greens, mushrooms, onion, garlic, 1/2-3/4 tsp of salt & enough water to cover everything.
My fast will probably end in 16 days, it would be ideal to have this ferment until then so I could start with the broth 1st few days, then move on to the flesh.
I've eaten high meat before, but leaving this combo in water worries me since I've never done it before or seen someone eat it.....If I don't get a reassuring response or hopefully some pics I'm going to put it in a double boiler on a small burner & extract (not cook) tomorrow for a few hours then freeze until the fast is over.
Do these pics/ingredients look like I have the right setup ?
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Sure. Cooked broths always left me with a heavy feeling in my gut. No discomfort beyond this, just a heavy feeling. I don't get this with fermented versions.
Thanks, Eric.
I am making my first raw bone/vegi broth. It is OK to uncover the bowl cover and rearrange the contents during the fermentation process, right?
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Do these pics/ingredients look like I have the right setup ?
How are you keeping the solids submerged?
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How are you keeping the solids submerged?
They just stay like that in the 1st two pics, in the last one I raised them with a spoon.
Does everything look good to you ?
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They just stay like that in the 1st two pics, in the last one I raised them with a spoon.
Does everything look good to you ?
I'm not familiar with that type of fermentation set-up, with the ingredients exposed to air in a wide bowl, so I really can't comment.
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I'm not familiar with that type of fermentation set-up, with the ingredients exposed to air in a wide bowl, so I really can't comment.
I noticed some white foam today, bubbling & covered it with foil....smells strong too.....do you stir your fermented products or leave them ?
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I noticed some white foam today, bubbling & covered it with foil....smells strong too.....do you stir your fermented products or leave them ?
I only do submerged fermentation with no stirring, and I've never seen the set-up you are using. I don't want to give you the wrong information, since you seem to be following some other kind of set-up.
Here is what I understand about fermentation, from www.wildfermentation.com (http://www.wildfermentation.com) "The simple key to successful vegetable fermentation is to make sure your vegetables are submerged in liquid. That’s it, the big secret. Usually the liquid is salty water, also known as brine, but fermentation can be done without salt, or with other liquids, such as wine or whey." In this case, meat and bones are also added to ferment by the same principle. By submerged, I mean "completely underwater." Submersion is done so that undesirable airborne bacteria, molds/yeasts, and fungus do not grow in your product.
I am concerned that your ferment will turn into a toxic, inedible, swampy slime. How do you prevent your end-product from turning into compost?
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I only do submerged fermentation with no stirring, and I've never seen the set-up you are using. I don't want to give you the wrong information, since you seem to be following some other kind of set-up.
Here is what I understand about fermentation, from www.wildfermentation.com (http://www.wildfermentation.com) "The simple key to successful vegetable fermentation is to make sure your vegetables are submerged in liquid. That’s it, the big secret. Usually the liquid is salty water, also known as brine, but fermentation can be done without salt, or with other liquids, such as wine or whey." In this case, meat and bones are also added to ferment by the same principle. By submerged, I mean "completely underwater." Submersion is done so that undesirable airborne bacteria, molds/yeasts, and fungus do not grow in your product.
I am concerned that your ferment will turn into a toxic, inedible, swampy slime. How do you prevent your end-product from turning into compost?
We share the same concerns ....This is my 1st time doing raw broth, just following what I read here. My only success with fermentation was leaving meat outside for a while, it looked rotten but smelled & tasted great, when I did it in jars, they smell nasty & I threw the jars out.
I'm not sure about this smell & can't taste anything because I'm fasting, I might just boil this & freeze, do you think that would be safe ?
I think I'm gonna stick to leaving meat outside & making cooked broth, every other fermented product I tried to make turned out horrible. ;D -v
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We share the same concerns ....This is my 1st time doing raw broth, just following what I read here.
I think you overlooked the part of the instructions that said to make it like a fermented beverage. The word fermented refers to a pretty well-defined process. You sound like an enthusiastic experimenter, so you probably would enjoy fermentation. Start with the basic utensils (glass jar, something to keep the ingredients submerged) and learn how to adjust the amounts of salt and length of fermentation time, which will depend on your climate. Here, it's too hot to make a really good-tasting ferment in the summer, so I start fermenting in November and continue through the winter. Eric's vegetable base is beets or other root vegetables; my standard vegetable base is cabbage and some apple or pear. Collards make a pretty strong flavor. I know another method for collards, but it tastes bad to me. You can slow down fermentation in warm weather by putting the jar in the refrigerator after the brew starts bubbling and the liquid becomes cloudy. Experience will teach you how the ferment looks, smells, and tastes day by day.
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Can I just soak the bones in water, without the fermenting and get bone broth? How long do I soak and should I eat the raw marrow or leave it in the bones? Maybe either way. Should I add veg to it?
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Can I just soak the bones in water, without the fermenting and get bone broth? How long do I soak and should I eat the raw marrow or leave it in the bones? Maybe either way. Should I add veg to it?
A while back, there was a post with info on the amount of calcium leached out of raw bones in unheated, acidulated water. I can't find the chart that was posted, but the general idea is if you add some acid (lemon juice, vinegar, etc.), you can get raw bone broth in a matter of hours. In fermented raw bone broth, the weak brine turns acidic from lacto-fermentation. Dodery is another version in which the bones are fermented for a long time. I'm not sure about adding vegetables to bones in acidulated water... the veggies would just end up being wet vegetables, if I understand what you are saying.
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Eveheart, so what is the benefit of fermented bone broth if the minerals in bones could be extracted just by placing bones and vinegar in water for a few hours?
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Eveheart, so what is the benefit of fermented bone broth if the minerals in bones could be extracted just by placing bones and vinegar in water for a few hours?
Outstanding taste (umami: "pleasant savory taste") and nutrition (probiotic microorganisms).
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I think you overlooked the part of the instructions that said to make it like a fermented beverage. The word fermented refers to a pretty well-defined process. You sound like an enthusiastic experimenter, so you probably would enjoy fermentation. Start with the basic utensils (glass jar, something to keep the ingredients submerged) and learn how to adjust the amounts of salt and length of fermentation time, which will depend on your climate. Here, it's too hot to make a really good-tasting ferment in the summer, so I start fermenting in November and continue through the winter. Eric's vegetable base is beets or other root vegetables; my standard vegetable base is cabbage and some apple or pear. Collards make a pretty strong flavor. I know another method for collards, but it tastes bad to me. You can slow down fermentation in warm weather by putting the jar in the refrigerator after the brew starts bubbling and the liquid becomes cloudy. Experience will teach you how the ferment looks, smells, and tastes day by day.
I followed exact instructions before for high meat, fermented beans, etc.... they all failed. Plus anything in jars or in liquid like the broth smells really bad to me, I wouldn't eat it.....no fermentation for me.
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Outstanding taste (umami: "pleasant savory taste") and nutrition (probiotic microorganisms).
Thank, eveheart.
I started eating my fermented cabbage and fermented bone broth. The taste is quite acceptable. I am a satisfied customer.
In the raw bone broth, the raw chicken feet look intact although an appetizing meat aroma has come out. I moved the broth to the refrigerator and added some ACV. Let's see what will happen. Upon second thought, maybe I put in too little vegetable at beginning? I put in only raw green cabbage and I already took out and ate almost all the cabbage. Should I add more vegetable to the bone broth? Should I take it out of the fridge to continue to ferment?
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Upon second thought, maybe I put in too little vegetable at beginning? I put in only raw green cabbage and I already took out and ate almost all the cabbage. Should I add more vegetable to the bone broth? Should I take it out of the fridge to continue to ferment?
Amounts of vegetable, fermentation times, and that sort of thing are up to your individual taste. Here are a few facts that I've read about:
- "They" say that good strains of probiotics take a few weeks to grow, so a quick ferment won't give you the best in the way of probiotics. Nevertheless, shorter fermentation times do make tasty dishes.
- "They" say that good strains of probiotics grow best between 65 - 72 degrees F. That's why I rarely ferment in the summer, where my inside temperature gets into the 80s or more daily. That's also why I don't like to rely on fermentation in a refrigerator, where the temperature is too low. You can buy a kimchi refrigerator for mucho dinero, make one with thermostats and an old fridge, set up your own system in a cooler, rig up a swamp cooler to keep your ferments cool. I live in a very small apartment, so I don't do any of this, just wait for cooler weather.
- Oxygen is the enemy. Personally, I use fermentation air-locks, which I buy at a local beer-brewing supply store for about $2 each. I drill a hole in a canning jar lid, put a drilled cork in the hole, and put the air-lock in the cork. The fermenting ingredients release carbon dioxide, which escapes through the air-lock, resulting in oxygen being displaced by CO2 in the air space above the ingredients. The air-lock only lets the CO2 escape, but doesn't let air in. You can also buy water-trough fermentation crocks that lock out air and let CO2 escape.
- I have read that some people use a microscope (not paleo - LOL) to identify bacteria and molds in their ferment. Not something I do, but it is an interesting possibility.
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When I used to culture my goat's milk, including kefir, I kept the milk at around 98-100. When the milk was room temp, or close to the temps you heard were beneficial, more yeast strains developed than bacteria strain. This was evident by how runny the kefir was. My logic says that if you want to grow and develop strains that will inhabit the gut, they need to be able to sustain themselves at body temp. Now or course, this may not be at all the primary purpose but to simply ferment foods with bacteria that are not harmful.
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Good point, Van. Different strains of lactobacillus work best at different temperatures. I'm not too science-y myself, but I understand that whatever the strain (Lactobacillus strain name) is not the end product (lactic acid). It's probably more complex than I understand, though. Maybe someone else can explain or clarify, for those who are interested.
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I don't have but limited 'science' myself. To further my point,, along the same lines would be taking probiotics that have been evolved and grown on lactose, if one's diet has little sugars. But then having said that, maybe prebiotics could feed those milk/lactose bacteria. So much to discover and learn here. So many stains of probiotics in health food stores come from lactose based bacteria...
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Thank you, Eveheart and Van.
My fermented bone broth and another bowl of fermented vegetables have been uncovered daily. Are they bad then? Why is oxygen an enemy?
Another question: I buy raw grass-fed gruyere cheese from a local farm. Since the cheese is too salty for me, I soak the cheese in drinking water first in the fridge before I consume it. The soaking water becomes very salty. What do you think of using the salty soaking water to ferment vegetables or bones? Is the soaking water similar to whey water?
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you can do away with the need for adding salt by juicing half the veggies and adding that juice instead of water. That juice and a fine shred of the veggies will start immediate fermentation, which will get a head start on the undesirable strains.... If I were attempting this experiment of adding bones to the mix, I'd let the veggies get fairly well fermented before adding bones.
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Van's idea of waiting a few days for the veggies to acidify is an interesting one. You can buy inexpensive pH strips from your local grocery store or drug store, and can use them to check to see when the pH falls into the range of 4 or 5 before adding bones. The acidity should prevent putrefying bacteria from colonizing the bones/meat, and should hasten the removal of alkaline minerals like calcium and magnesium.
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My fermented bone broth and another bowl of fermented vegetables have been uncovered daily. Are they bad then? Why is oxygen an enemy?
I can't give you a science answer, but try this for yourself: Make two batches of shredded cabbage. Ferment one batch the usual way, submerged in water. Make the second batch without water submersion, so the cabbage is in the air. Keep these at room temperature for a week. Sample the two batches and see which one turned into sauerkraut.
My son, the science-y guy, says that if oxygen is present, the lactobacilli will undergo cellular respiration instead of fermentation. Cellular respiration makes piss and shit (his words, very science-y - in other words, methane and uric acid) instead of lactic acid.
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Thanks for all the responses.
Van, actually I already did something similar to what you said. Since Eric said this, “The vegetables will start fermenting, releasing lactic acid along with all sorts of other beneficial things. The acid will help to draw alkaline minerals like calcium and magnesium out of the bone, and bacteria will start eating the physical components of the bone, liberating them into the solution as parts of the bacteria floating about...” I fermented vegetables for some time before adding chicken feet to the fermenting bowl. I think it works. I don’t mind a little bit of salt, though.
I can't give you a science answer, but try this for yourself: Make two batches of shredded cabbage. Ferment one batch the usual way, submerged in water. Make the second batch without water submersion, so the cabbage is in the air. Keep these at room temperature for a week. Sample the two batches and see which one turned into sauerkraut.
My son, the science-y guy, says that if oxygen is present, the lactobacilli will undergo cellular respiration instead of fermentation. Cellular respiration makes piss and shit (his words, very science-y - in other words, methane and uric acid) instead of lactic acid.
Eveheart, see if I understand you alright: As long as the vegetables/bones are totally submerged in the fermenting water, it is alright. Is that what you meant?
I am putting the fermenting stuff in a big corning ware, totally submerged in water, covered by a matching glass lid. Daily I use a utensil to push down the vegetables/bones to make sure they stay in the water. Does this sound OK?
I am not a scientific person. So I checked out methane and uric acid on the internet. Here is what I found:
“Methane is not toxic, yet it is extremely flammable and may form explosive mixtures with air. Methane is violently reactive with oxidizers, halogen, and some halogen-containing compounds.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methane (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methane)
“In humans and higher primates, uric acid is the final oxidation (breakdown) product of purine metabolism and is excreted in urine….Both uric acid and ascorbic acid are strong reducing agents (electron donors) and potent antioxidants. In humans, over half the antioxidant capacity of blood plasma comes from uric acid….High levels of uric acid is called hyperuricemia and can lead to gout….Lower serum values of uric acid have been associated with multiple sclerosis.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uric_acid (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uric_acid)
So it looks like consuming a little bit of methane and eric acid is not harmful?
I just want to make sure I am not consuming something harmful...
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You shouldn't have to add water to your veggies if you use something like cabbage and make sure to crush it properly and allow the natural juices and very little salt do the magic. I just crush with m hands and then pound it into the jar with fists, I have had enough extra juice to add a few cups of extra ingredients with this technique, and generally, by the second day of fermentation, more water liberates itself from the veggies.
The reason I make ferments in a tight jar is to force out the air, in a large bowl the process of fermentation will make pockets of gas that are undesirable, so having it packed tightly in a jar, and then being sure to push out the air with some weight on top of the jar daily or a few times daily helps to insure proper fermenting throughout
I agree with vans advice to add bones and meat to veggies that are already a ways down the path to fermentation. I have added salmon to ferments before, left a day or two the meat seems to "cook" and have a flakey tender texture.
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I have had friends experiment with lacto fermenting meats with whey, and spices and had good results with beef heart. I am wondering if Bill Molisons book on fermentation has any recipes or ideas for traditional bone and meat ferments, anyone have copy?
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I used to own a copy of Bill Mollison's fermentation book, titled The Permaculture Book of Ferment and Human Nutrition, but got rid of it. It's more an encyclopedia of the things people around the world ferment than a discussion of the benefits of fermentation or a book that offers recipes. The thing I found most frustrating about it is that it never gave instructions on how to prepare any of the recipes he talked about, he just talked about where they were from and who ate them.
It's also wicked expensive and hard to get here in the US.
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Eveheart, see if I understand you alright: As long as the vegetables/bones are totally submerged in the fermenting water, it is alright. Is that what you meant?
I am putting the fermenting stuff in a big corning ware, totally submerged in water, covered by a matching glass lid. Daily I use a utensil to push down the vegetables/bones to make sure they stay in the water. Does this sound OK?
The CO2 bubbles push the solids to the surface, and that's where the air contact occurs, even if you have a cover on your fermentation container. If have to push your solids down, they are contacting air.
I am not a scientific person. So I checked out methane and uric acid on the internet. ...
So it looks like consuming a little bit of methane and eric acid is not harmful?
I think you are overthinking this. The goal is to grow certain microorganisms and not others. Deliberate fermentation of food was going on long before mankind knew the science behind fermentation. If the set-up is right (excluding air with an air lock or water trough, or submerging under water with weights, mesh, etc.) then the result will be tasty and nutritious.
I had Bill Mollison's book and found it to be nothing more than an overpriced picture book of ferments from around the world. Not enough information to be helpful. As a coffee-table book, it was superb, as a recipe book, not useful. I prefer Sandor Ellix Katz.
As far as starting the vegetables a-fermenting before adding bones, this sounds good if you are starting from scratch. If you add whey or sauerkraut water starter, it might not be necessary.
Here's what my set-up looks like (not my picture, though, all my jars are quart size).
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I guess I just don't like sandors recipes(toooo salty!) and find the history, culture and suggestions in Molisons book to be excellent ideas for my own experimentation.
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I guess I just don't like sandors recipes(toooo salty!) and find the history, culture and suggestions in Molisons book to be excellent ideas for my own experimentation.
I can definitely agree with you on both comments!
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I find Sandor's recipes way too salty as well. That's easy enough to fix though, just don't add so much salt. I probably add one fourth the salt to most of my ferments that Sandor Katz advocates in his books.
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Many thanks for all the posts. I am inspired to enter the world of fermentation. I am getting Katz's two books (2003 & 2012) from my local public library.
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Is it possible to ferment cauliflower and kohlrabi - perhaps even without salt? There are some in our garden, too many to eat at once…
P.S.: Concerning kohlrabi, I just found this: http://www.ehow.com/how_7524079_ferment-kohlrabi.html (http://www.ehow.com/how_7524079_ferment-kohlrabi.html)
I fermented Kohlrabi as described in the link (without the soap and disinfection part) and it tastes already like sauerkraut. Even better than sauerkraut! I added a little bit salt, less than suggested in the recipe. It seems not to be necessary to add (much) water if the kohlrabi is grated because the kohlrabi is very juicy. The next kohlrabi will be fermented without salt… And then perhaps I’ll try to add bones.
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Here one solution for turning normal jars into gas evading jars in order to make perfect fermentation.
He fills a plastic bag with water, and then puts it instead of lid, covering the whole jar mouth. When the gases have more pressure, they can come out of it, but no oxygen could get in it. A simple but practical and good solution.
(Please watch from 4:00 minutes where he is showing how to use the plastic bags with water as the jar lids.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GWS1prE5_Eg (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GWS1prE5_Eg)
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another way that works quite well,, use wide jar or crock pot. fill with material, cover with broad leaves of cabbage, and place stone on top so that it presses the fermenting vegs. down. Save the stone for next time. you can then cover the top with non airtight lid to keep out airborne dust etc.
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Another option that I learned from Sandor Katz at a workshop this past July: Fill the mason jar (or other vessel) with vegetables and whatever else, then pack glass marbles on top of the vegetables in the jar to weigh them down and keep them below the waterline. Next put the normal lid on the mason jar with the screw-on rim left loose. The gas can escape as needed since the lid isn't sealed tightly, but the lid will keep fruit flies and other things out and the marbles will weigh the veg down so it's not exposed to oxygen.
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Using glass marbles as weight is an original idea!
When you make a bone broth using fermenting, is it possible to leave bone marrow in the bones? Or is it better to remove the marrow carefully?
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You could leave the marrow in, but I generally remove it and eat it. It's so nourishing, I wouldn't want its nutritional qualities altered by the fermentation. And, inadvertently, little bits of marrow are left in the bones anyway as I can never get it all out.
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zaidi, plastic could leak poisonous stuff upon contact with acids. I suppose fermented vegi contains acids?
... place stone on top so that it presses the fermenting vegs. down. Save the stone for next time. you can then cover the top with non airtight lid to keep out airborne dust etc.
Do you mean: After I have pressed the vegi down with the stone, I take the stone out and cover the pot with lid while the vegi is being fermented?
Eric, glass marbles are very cheap (price-wise). Are you sure the colors in the marbles don't contain chemicals?
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you leave the stone in place while fermenting..
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Thanks, van.
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Eric, glass marbles are very cheap (price-wise). Are you sure the colors in the marbles don't contain chemicals?
I'm not sure. It seems like I've seen clear glass marbles, so those shouldn't offer any potential for contamination.
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I read somewhere that crock pots made in some countries contain lead, especially colored ones. It appears that in these days of advanced (?) technology we cannot be too careful.
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I agree with you, Joy, but I do trust glass products sold in the US for use with foods, for instance drinking glasses and canning jars.
I use a "jar in a jar method" to keep fermenting foods submerged. For example, I can fit a narrow-mouth 4 oz. canning jar into a wide-mouth canning jar (quart or larger), then I screw a wide-mouth canning lid with an air lock, and this outer lid holds the small jar down.
I get a lot of ideas by googling "fermentation jars" or "fermentation crocks." Youtube has good stuff, too. Once you get the basics of the bacteria culture, the variations are infinite.
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I just ate „sauerkraut“ made from grated kohlrabi fermented without added salt. I just added a little bit water to grated kohlrabi and stored it in a cold place for some days. The kohlrabi didn’t spoil and its taste was fine.
Next, I`ll try to prepare a raw bone broth.
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Eveheart, good idea.
My first bone broth got molds because I just manually pushed the bones downward so that they went through a rinse underneath the water--and then they emerged above the water again of course.
Now I am doing my second bone broth experiment. I first fermented a big jar of cabbage (using jessica's idea) for one week. Then I took out the cabbage (and ate it) and placed the fermented cabbage juice into a big glass bowl. I placed several pastured chicken feet (each cut open in two places to expose the bone) into the bowl and covered/pushed them down with a heavy transparent glass plate (so that I can see the feet are truly pushed down under the waterline. Then I covered the bowl with its own lid. The fermented cabbage juice smells so good. I hope this experiment will succeed.
Hanna, let us know if your bone broth is a success.
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My experiment with raw bone broth went well for 3 days. I checked the bowl every day to make sure the bones stayed underneath the heavy glass plate. Yesterday I added a stainless steel cup on top of the plate. Today my bone broth was covered with a layer of mold. Very disappointing. I inspected the chicken feet. It does not appear they have been "eaten up" in any way. They appeared intact. So there is no way to tell if they did release nutrients into the broth. I am giving up raw bone broth for the time being. Go back to cooked bone broth. Might still do vegi fermentation.
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I'm sad to hear of your failure. 3 days is a very short time. I generally let mine go for weeks, and I've not had any problems with mold growing so I don't know what the deal is there. Best of luck with your cooked broth!
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Thanks, Eric. I think the stainless steel cup brought some germs into the broth. But the main thing is that the chicken feet appeared intact after 4 days of fermenting. So I could not know if the fermenting is doing anything to release the nutrients in the bones.
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I don't think 4 days would be long enough to see much change in bones. They take a longer time to show some degradation.
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Thanks, Eric. Maybe I should try again.
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Joy, I've been reading about your problem and I'm still concerned that you haven't locked out air. Here's a picture of my air lock, which lets the gas above the water level be CO2 - all air is excluded as the CO2 bubbles up to fill the space. The science of fermentation is interesting - basically, one plays with bacteria from the soil, yeasts from the air, and a few other factors (salt, temperature, sugars in foods) that moderate that game.
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I successfully fermented white cabbage without salt. I use a trimmed cabbage leaf which fits exactly into the jar to keep the vegetable submerged.
I also prepared a raw bone broth. However, the raw bone broth tastes precisely like sauerkraut brine. Is there any trick to make it taste like bone broth?
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It won't taste exactly like cooked bone broth. If you want something that tastes like cooked bone broth, you'll need to make cooked bone broth. The raw version I noted doesn't contain as much dissolved collagen as cooked broth does, nor does it contain the array of aromatic compounds produced by heat. It just won't taste the same.
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Ok. I'll try again to get a better-tasting raw bone broth.
Joy, did you try to prepare a raw bone broth again?
Here are pictures of my white cabbage fermentation: http://frohkost.blogspot.de/2013/10/wie-bereitest-du-die-lebensmittel-zu.html (http://frohkost.blogspot.de/2013/10/wie-bereitest-du-die-lebensmittel-zu.html)
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I am successfully making fermented vegetables, thanks to all. I plan to do this regularly.
I think I will stick to cooked bone broth for the time being. I want the dissolved collagen part, which is supposed to be good for joints and skin health.
A question: I read somewhere that once you put the fermented vegetables in the refrigerator, the probiotics in the vegi die out. Is that true?
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I doubt it. That contradicts what I've read. My understanding is that cool/cold temps just slow microbiota growth and hinder pathogens more than beneficial bacteria.
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I doubt it. That contradicts what I've read. My understanding is that cool/cold temps just slow microbiota growth and hinder pathogens more than beneficial bacteria.
Thanks!
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I use a "jar in a jar method" to keep fermenting foods submerged. For example, I can fit a narrow-mouth 4 oz. canning jar into a wide-mouth canning jar (quart or larger), then I screw a wide-mouth canning lid with an air lock, and this outer lid holds the small jar down.
I've used this method as well. I placed a tight-fitting glass within the mason jar and filled it with water to weigh it down.
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I've been trying to consume bone broth for a while now. All the literature and websites recommend it as the holy grail to fixing the gut. But after multiple attempts, I can say it just tastes like burned water. My stomach feels heavy and worse. So I wonder what other ways I could get the gelatin.
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I've been trying to consume bone broth for a while now. All the literature and websites recommend it as the holy grail to fixing the gut. But after multiple attempts, I can say it just tastes like burned water. My stomach feels heavy and worse. So I wonder what other ways I could get the gelatin.
Blending tendons/ligaments?
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Burned water? Do you care to explain your ingredients and technique?
There are products like this one: https://www.upgradedself.com/collagelatin (https://www.upgradedself.com/collagelatin) if you are looking for a supplement form of gelatin. It might even be sourced from grassfed cattle. (Beware of high prices on that site.)
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I've been trying to consume bone broth for a while now. All the literature and websites recommend it as the holy grail to fixing the gut....
Sort of. There is a pervasive misunderstanding among some bone brothers regarding the effects of this food on the gut. In the GAPS book and other literature Dr. Natasha Campbell-McBride tries to be clear that meat stock is what heals the gut. Meat stock is made with bones and meat simmered at low temperatures for 1-2 hours. This is a very different concoction than bone broth, which is generally made of bones only and is cooked for much longer periods, often over 24 hours. If your goal is to heal your gut, you should be making meat stock, which dissolves the collagen from the meat, fascia within the meat and any cartilage and tendon that might be present on the bones. Bone broth dissolves the collagen too, but it damages it more because of the longer cooking time and also produces other cooking-derived toxins that can undermine the benefits of the broth.
You can also slice raw tendon and cartilage into bite-sized pieces and chew it up enough so you can swallow it. I make meat stock occasionally, but mostly do the latter. Not sure how good of an idea it would be to try to put raw tendons in a blender. Seems to me that might damage the blender. Tendons are very strong tissues!
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Wow, brilliant comment. I buy the whole carcass so there are plenty of tendons and joints. I would put them in the crock and gently brew for a day. When I consumed the broth it tastes "burned" and I feel worse. However, I recall drinking the soup after a short boiling time (because I was hungry) and liking it much more. I just never put it together.
So Eric, do you consume the meat in the meat stock or just the broth? I bet the tendons would also be easier to chew.
Second, I have an entire front leg of a lamb. I know the knee joint is good but what about that hard, thin layer of shoulder blade. Does anyone know if that is a tendon? It seemed to hard to chew and possibly to sharp.