Paleo Diet: Raw Paleo Diet and Lifestyle Forum
Raw Paleo Diet to Suit You => Carnivorous / Zero Carb Approach => Topic started by: Poncho on January 13, 2013, 07:23:22 am
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Im eating pretty much just meat. Its been just a few days so far. Today Ive felt tired and weak, and the weakness and fatigue just keep pulling me down. Am I okay? I dont know who to turn to. My boyfriend is just displeased with me because Ive been trying so hard to find a lifestyle and diet that works for me, and he thinks Ive failed again. But I havent right? Cause this is just how it starts..?
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Well done for keeping going for a few days - since you have come this far you might as well keep going for at least a couple of weeks :)
Including raw liver, heart, eggs, fat and sea foods would be very healing, plus I have found eating just two meals a day is good since the raw fat provides such long lasting energy.
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But I dont know whats okay. I dont know when I might be dying, or when Im just going through expected changes. I think too much to know this little and its freaking me out. I wonder if one of the meats I ate has made me sick, I wonder if its a bad idea to continue. I wonder if Im going through shitty food withdrawals, because I had always blown people's minds with how much junk and garbage I could eat. Im scared I guess.
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Most people who switch to a rawpalaeo diet go through an initial period of detox as the body gets rid of certain toxins. That phase can last a few days to a few weeks. In my own case, my first 3 days of doing this diet had me getting green diarrhea every half hour. I also occasionally experienced further minor detoxes once every few months or so until they stopped after a couple of years.
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Like TD said, it could be detox. It could also be die off, when bacteria that normally thrive from undigested food are starved of nutrition and start dying.
It's likely a combination of die off, detox, and your body coming off a "withdrawal" from all the cooked food you're used to.
It could also be you're not getting enough fat. If you've been eating lots of grass fed meats, and not much else. You probably haven't gotten much fat in your system.
You might also be craving carbs.
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I went through a period where I felt tired as well. This sucked for me, I do a labour job. After some time though, can't remember how long, things started to reverse and now I'm gaining energy. Mind you, I still only lightly cook my meats, too. It may be more dangerous, but I can't handle that kind of switch right now, my life is too messed up already. I prefer the peace of mind, and the enjoyability of it. I need to look forward to my meals. I want to enjoy every single meal I have, while attempting to eat healthy.
For me, at least right now, this means yummy, god damn yummy, lightly cooked meat and rare meats. Seems to be working well for me so far, and I think it'll continue to. I eat it by itself separated by hours. The plant side of my diet is also extremely high quality and always raw, and now mostly consists of sprouted (5-7 day old) vegetables.
It can take months to really figure it out, but you'll always be learning more and more, and getting better and better.
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I want to let you guys all know that I really appreciate every response I get on here. I dont know much on the whole raw eating thing yet, so I dont always feel the need to discuss things. I just gladly accept information and opinions. I often have no comment on what Im being taught, I just apply it to my life. Im a pretty fearful person when it comes to my health, and I really fear being alone when Im scared. Thanks everyone for helping me :)
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One more thing about switching to a low-carb diet: fatigue for a week or two is common.
The "rules" you should be following in low carb are: (1) eat only moderate amounts of protein (generally stated as 0.8 g of usable protein per kg of ideal body weight, higher for athletes); (2) most of your additional calories should come from fat; (3) as far as carb intake, it's up to you, and you can read more about it.
If you are getting way too much protein and not enough fat, you will not feel well. The name for too much protein is "Rabbit Starvation" (as in "eating lean meat like a rabbit's all the time").
Some of your anxiety might be alleviated by reading more, either in this forum or some of the books that are mentioned in some of the threads. I, too, jumped around with a lot of false starts on different fads like vegetarian diets, but I've been here for almost two years and my ol' body keeps getting healthier and healthier.
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An interesting debate between Cordain and T. Colin Campbell about how high our protein intake should be, for those that havn't already read it:
http://www.catalystathletics.com/articles/downloads/proteinDebate.pdf (http://www.catalystathletics.com/articles/downloads/proteinDebate.pdf)
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- You could be eating too much protein and not enough fat?
- You might not be hydrated enough... what fluids are you drinking? What hydrating fruits or vegetables are you eating?
- You may be salt deprived, are you eating bloody meat? You might consider salty things.
- What's the quality of your food? What is it composed of?
- Tell us many more things about you, why you are doing this diet, what your state of health is, what illness are you trying to cure, age, weight, background, etc.
- What detox protocols have you done? If none, then as Tyler said, this could be detox.
- Maybe you do need more rest and more sleep, how is your sleeping pattern? What do you do for a living?
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Im eating pretty much just meat.
Why?
Its been just a few days so far. Today Ive felt tired and weak, and the weakness and fatigue just keep pulling me down. Am I okay?
If it's making you feel bad, then why eat only meat?
If you're scared, why not start out slowly with what doesn't scare you and as you gain courage experiment more?
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Im eating pretty much just meat because everything else seems to make me feel worse.
My health sucks, I have IBS, anxiety, frequent urgent urination, inability to sleep through the night most of the time (due to getting up to pee), my mind can't handle things properly, I cry many times per day (very weird for me, but I guess not anymore), this has all been going on for over 2.5 years now.
You might assume that its all in my head, so I can just change things. Youd be right and wrong there. Its literally all in my head, but I cant even control my mind. Brain injury is the weirdest thing.
Im doing this diet because I want my life back, and its my last shot. Ive tried it all. I want to feel able again, like I can just live like everyone else I know. Everything in my life has lost its value, because why would it matter at all if Im not okay? Why would I care to do as Im told, if I dont get to be happy? Oh yeah, I suffer from increasingly bad depression. That makes me feel ridiculous too, I wonder why I cant even make myself happy. I dont work, I dont go to school, not right now. Im on a 4 month vacation to snowboard in the mountains. Thats how hard my life is, why arent I happy? Because my body feels bad, and many many other things. I feel incapable. I cant even sleep through the night.
I dont weigh myself anymore, I dont even have a scale with me here. It got too depressing. I've been trying since rehab in 2010 to gain weight. Believe it or not, I now weigh (well, last time I checked) 5 pounds less than I did in rehab. Thats bad.
I cant start out slow, my body wont allow it. Yesterday I had a small bowl of organic vegetarian noodles, Ive been paying for that since I ate it. Massive bloated stomach. Pain, unbearable fatigue.
What about just having a piece of fruit? Nope. Also bad. Bloated and tired again. I tried and apple once, and a banana the time before. My body allows me berries
Its really hard to get good meat and fat here, trust me. Ive really been trying, my comfort depends on it. I found meat thats alright I guess, but no good fat.
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"High-meat" is really good for depression but only worth trying once you're used to the taste of fresh, raw meat.
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Oh yeah, I suffer from increasingly bad depression. That makes me feel ridiculous too, I wonder why I cant even make myself happy. I dont work, I dont go to school, not right now. Im on a 4 month vacation to snowboard in the mountains. Thats how hard my life is, why arent I happy?
One of the keys to happiness is to have some purpose in life. If you are feeling poorly, a full-time job may be out of the question, but you can volunteer to do something. Off the top of my head, how about working with brain-injured people? There are many volunteer opportunities - animal shelters, children's hospitals, reading to older people. An hour or two would be no more strenuous that snowboarding.
A four-month vacation would tend to deepen depression. I am rehabilitating myself from deep disability. Every step of progress is a cause for rejoicing. You can turn your life around, too.
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Im eating pretty much just meat because everything else seems to make me feel worse.
I'm confused, if everything else is worse, which would make the current "pretty much all-meat" approach best, then why did you post this:
"Ive felt tired and weak, and the weakness and fatigue just keep pulling me down. Am I okay? I dont know who to turn to. My boyfriend is just displeased with me because Ive been trying so hard to find a lifestyle and diet that works for me, and he thinks Ive failed again. But I havent right? Cause this is just how it starts..?"
and this:"But I dont know whats okay. I dont know when I might be dying, or when Im just going through expected changes. I think too much to know this little and its freaking me out. I wonder if one of the meats I ate has made me sick, I wonder if its a bad idea to continue. I wonder if Im going through shitty food withdrawals, because I had always blown people's minds with how much junk and garbage I could eat. Im scared I guess."?
It sounds like whatever you were doing before was working better, right?
"Yesterday I had a small bowl of organic vegetarian noodles, Ive been paying for that since I ate it."
If vegetarian noodles make you pay for it, then I wouldn't eat them, at least not for now. What are they made of and why are they called "vegetarian" (does that mean you only ate vegetables with them) and were they raw or cooked?
What about just having a piece of fruit? Nope. Also bad. Bloated and tired again. I tried and apple once, and a banana the time before.
OK, so you've identified two foods that you don't do well on. That is useful information. So maybe put those foods aside for now and focus on the ones your body does currently handle well? Those are also not my best fruits, BTW, and the same goes for oranges. These three fruits are probably the most common in my area, and cheap, but not the best for me.
While I would put aside apples and bananas for now, if you decide to experiment with them again in the future, I've discovered some things that worked for me. By letting bananas become super-ripe (what most would consider "rotted") before eating them, I find that I digest them better. I also found that certain apple varieties seem to cause me less problems. For example, I seem to digest Dolgo apples (an ancient variety that is small, looking like a crab-apple) better than conventional popular varieties like Delicious, Granny Smith and Empire, and because Dolgo apples are smaller, I tend to eat less at one time. Plus, Dolgo apples are also the best tasting I've ever tried. Not everyone likes their tart taste and they are only available in limited markets during brief periods of the year, but if you try a wide variety of apples and other foods, you may find that you do better with some than others. You don't really know that you can't eat any apples if you only try the most common varieties.
"My body allows me berries"
Great, then you've identified something healthy that you can eat in addition to meat. I also do better with berries than other fruits, and lots of people have reported that in this and other forums.
Are you currently eating any other foods that you haven't listed? What exactly were you eating before that you reported you apparently felt better on? Listing all the specific foods that you're eating now vs. before might help people provide tips on what could be hurting or what might help.
And of course there are other things you can do beyond diet, such as what Eveheart suggested. What else have you tried?
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Im basically just very nervous about all of this. I just need to talk about everything until I understand it all perfectly to ease my anxiety. This is just my theory here, Im not trying to say that I was aware of this beforehand. I realized it this morning when my stomach was bloated up and uncomfortable, that I just need talk this through. I really believe my body is going through necessary steps to becoming healthy.
Im really weird with knowledge, Ill stay stupid and asking questions until I understand almost everything. This can take any amount of time. Then Ill just somehow become good at it, all at once.
This is going to be good, I can feel it
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It sounds like you're getting too much protein, and not enough fat.
When you say meat, do you mean fish or actual meat?
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Steak, tuna, and salmon. All I can get my hands on out here so far, Im serious. My boyfriend has contacted an organic farm just out of the area, they have some family thing going on. A baby I think, so they gave us some weird open ended answer.
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Read this for background on not eating enough fat: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rabbit_starvation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rabbit_starvation).
Rabbit starvation, also referred to as protein poisoning or mal de caribou, is a form of acute malnutrition caused by excess consumption of any lean meat (e.g., rabbit) coupled with a lack of other sources of nutrients usually in combination with other stressors, such as severe cold or dry environment. Symptoms include diarrhea, headache, fatigue, low blood pressure and heart rate, and a vague discomfort and hunger that can only be satisfied by consumption of fat or carbohydrates.
In terms of servings, you would probably need about (ballpark) 300 g of meat/fish per day, which will give you about 60 g of protein and not enough fat, especially if it is grassfed beef. Yes, even fatty fish like salmon and tuna is not that high in fat.
I had to search a lot to find exactly what I need for great RPD. It was worth the searching because I feel great and have a terrific selection of healthy foods.
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Ok, please listen up. What you are going through is nothing special. It is simple to explain and happens whether you are eating raw food or not (however raw may make the transition a little harder).
You are entering into ketosis. As your liver depletes itself of glycogen (your sugar storage) you run out of fuel for your muscles and brain. This is not bad as long as you are eating lots of fat, because the next step your body takes is to start using fat for fuel (in the form of ketones). Stop eating so much muscle meat and stick to fat, fat, fat and some organs like liver, heart, brain, etc.
Every time you feed your liver carbohydrates you are prolonging the adaptation so stay away from carbohydrates, other than a small cup of berries each day. You need to be eating less than 40g carbs or it will keep you from entering ketosis! Too much protein will convert in your body to carbohydrates and keep you from entering ketosis!
You are likely eating too much protein and not enough fat (http://www.ketogenic-diet-resource.com/daily-protein-requirement.html). Fat might make you feel sick at first, but you will get used to it. You can add spices to pieces of raw fat (like paprika and pepper and salt) and it becomes tasty!
As for depression and random crying... are you taking contraceptives? I know many women who have had emotional problems while taking them because it boosts your progesterone and your estrogen and really mucks with your other hormones. Think of them as on par with a bodybuilder injecting steroids into his muscles... contraceptives are oral steroids and muck with your brain as much as it mucks with your sexual organs. If you are not taking contraceptives then we can think about other ideas.
Lastly, you say you can't sleep through the night. This may be two things: hypoglycemia (from having no sugar, but also not being in ketosis) or natural sleep segmentation. Read up on it here (http://www.polyphasicsociety.com/polyphasic-sleep/overviews/segmented-sleep/), if you wake up in the middle of the night, get up and do a bit of light exercise, and keep yourself in the dark, or read by candle light. If you stay in bed you can become stressed and you are also stopping your hormones from becoming right.
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Sleeping problems are often due to
1. not getting enough vitamin D (try supplements and/or a tanning bed)
2. not eating enough fat
3. eating too many carbs
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I dont have access to organs or fat, at least right now, Im searching. Yes though, those symptoms are exactly what Im going through. What should I do if I cant get fat?
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And I would never take something like birth control, no. Poison
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@eveheart,
If I need 2700 calories per day (from a web site for my age/size/gender), and the fatiest food I can find is lamb shoulder chops, which have 208 calories per 100g (130 calories from fat), then I need to eat 1.3kg of lamb chops per day.
Mixing in lower fat foods, like offal & seafood, then this would increase to possibly 1.5kg.
At 18% protein then this would give 270g protein / my weight 80kg = 3.4g / kg, which is 4x higher than your recommendation of 0.8g / kg.
Then again if my body is much more efficient processing highly nutritious, digestible, and cleanly metabolised then this would be far too much food.
What do you think?
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@eveheart,
If I need 2700 calories per day (from a web site for my age/size/gender), and the fatiest food I can find is lamb shoulder chops, which have 208 calories per 100g (130 calories from fat), then I need to eat 1.3kg of lamb chops per day.
Mixing in lower fat foods, like offal & seafood, then this would increase to possibly 1.5kg.
At 18% protein then this would give 270g protein / my weight 80kg = 3.4g / kg, which is 4x higher than your recommendation of 0.8g / kg.
Then again if my body is much more efficient processing highly nutritious, digestible, and cleanly metabolised then this would be far too much food.
What do you think?
Even the fattiest cuts of land animal meats, or sea foods aren't going to provide you with a significant amount of fat without overdoing it on protein. The best way to add fat is through suet, or fat trimmings from people who sell grass fed meats.
Personally I'm not a big fan of suet, which is typically the fat around the kidneys. The raw beef fat I get from my farmer is typically yellow or white, some times chewy or chalky. But it's hit or miss. Some times it's red on the outside and looks horrible. Other times it's just yellow or white.
But some companies sell fat trimmings. Like this one
http://whiteoakpastures.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=10&products_id=117&zenid=a2b126b34167eb2ad862c961effeea96 (http://whiteoakpastures.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=10&products_id=117&zenid=a2b126b34167eb2ad862c961effeea96)
@Poncho - I think it's to soon for you to be going through a significant die off and/or detox. I think you're not getting enough fat and to much protein.
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I dont have access to organs or fat, at least right now, Im searching. Yes though, those symptoms are exactly what Im going through. What should I do if I cant get fat?
What I do when not eating much fat is eat the carby Paleo foods that my body handles best. Some time ago when I discovered that I was very sensitive to even "Paleo" carbs, I first eliminated everything except meat and fat because I didn't react negatively to them, and then I eventually started adding back in plant and carby foods one by one, to see which I could handle OK. I also started eating fermented foods, to see if they would improve my carb tolerance. I found that I could handle fermented forms of carb-containing foods, like fermented raw honey, better than unfermented. I suspect that it's because of a long-time gut microbiota imbalance (probably since birth, and aggravated by past rounds of various antibiotics that my physicians prescribed), in addition to fermented foods being easier to digest than their unfermented counterparts. A healthy, balanced gut microbiome seems to be especially important for carby foods, especially starchy ones.
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@ alive - I do not use a calculator when it comes to food. Because it is my intention to eat a moderate amount of fat, I figure that a 100 g serving of meat or fish has about 20 g protein, so I have three servings per day. The rest of my intake is "to appetite."
I got the 0.8 g of protein per kg of ideal weight from various low carb books.
@ Poncho - I deliberately buy extra fat, just as one would deliberately buy other foods that one wants to eat. Fat stores forever - I keep mine in the fridge - so you can buy a bunch of it wherever you find it.
Also, I can't remember where I mentioned this, but low-carb also requires a moderate salt intake. I eat easy-to-digest fermented vegetables in small amounts for most of my salt intake.
If you are going to pursue low-carb, I strongly suggest reading one of the fine books on the topic, if you are so inclined.
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How many kids did you give birth to? When was the last child born?
Could be a post partum depression thing from malnourishment.
Or parasites.
Or metal pollution, mercury, lead, etc.
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Woah.
Okay, I am trying to get my hands on fat, I do not wish to go low cal. I will definitely try fermenting things :) That would make a lot of sense for me actually, I didnt think of that haha.
Me, how many kids did I have?
Im 19
Not much use sending me into a deep panic telling me I might have parasites etc, without telling me how to figure that out. And what to do about it, if I do figure out that Im harbouring unwanted critters.
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Parasites are part of life.
Sometimes they cause problems and sometimes they do not.
I have used both: www.humaworm.com (http://www.humaworm.com)
and www.oldfashionedspices.com (http://www.oldfashionedspices.com) (dewormer)
for myself and my children.
No need to panic.
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Even if you do have yeast or parasites I would wait a month or so before addressing them and take it one step at a time. Drink all of the water you want. I was shockingly thirsty my first month. Sorry about the peeing all night thing, but that should pass after a month. You can't get animal fat - stinks, but you have options. To start get raw olive oil, free range eggs, raw coconut butter and if you can't get raw butter now get grass fed pasutrized butter until you find a good source of raw animal fat. Eat all of these other fats, as much as you can consume, with small amounts of protein like eve suggested. I think salt helped me greatly and raw scallops in warm herbed salted butter is great. Anything dipped in herbed salted butter is great. Dip your meat into egg yolks, and mix little chunks of coconut oil into your butter dippers, or sauces. Put olive oil on everything else, vinegar is nice with it to make a marinade. That should cover you for fat until you find it local or order online.
This diet hasn't made me sick yet and I'm a 41yr/o with diabetes. So, you should be safe with high quality foods eaten raw, but fear is natural, so accepting and talking about it is great. I love that your 19 : ). You sound young, wild, and brave.
Have you meditated on your depression? Healing to Wholeness technique has helped me. Depression is like being stuck in a deep dark well, if there are others around they can't really reach you. You can't feel much through the numbness, and disconnect, and your head can't think clearly while numb and detached. With all the detachment it's amazing how much pain can still exist. Volunteering/life purpose stuff is a rewarding channel. It gives passion to the dispassionate, but are you dispassionate or depressed? Maybe you don't know? Ha that's life
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Okay, thanks for the links. Im glad that I wouldnt need to go to the doctor. I really hate doing that.
Haha I used to be wild, now you might say reckless. Im just so sick of the endless hunt for health. Id try anything that actually made sense, like this does. Im so happy to be shown how to get the good fat without actually having to get animals fats. Ill be doing that tomorrow. My depression is confusing haha. And it comes from so many real things. I think it would have no problem taking down the strongest people. Even if I had no real problems going on, my mind would have no problem fabricating them all for me. Thats the brain injury part.
So without perfect health and a clear head, I stand absolutely no chance of overcoming it, thats why Im here.
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You might like Coconut Oil. A mixed bag for some people here. I say it's because they haven't tried truly raw coconut oil yet. And of course, some may not actually like it. But I get mine from a company in Canada. It's called First Quality Organics. You want Virgin oil de Coco Creme. Cold centrifuged. Much better than Wilderness family's product. Their number is 1-877-870-1018. I eat maybe three or four tablespoons a day. It's quite tasty. It's a good adjunct to animal fats, and can be substituted for some days. And then I crave animal fat. In a hardened state it can be grated like cheese on top of meat. I have read other's suggestions here. I'm glad you're getting warnings on eating too much protein. It will cause problems. Most of your calories should come from fat, if low carb, and meat is secondary. You might also try avocados, Brazil nuts (this years crop is just in, so they can be fresh), and fresh coconuts also shredded very finely eaten with meat. It adds some bulk/fibre and taste to meat. If you have any questions, feel free to ask away. And it does take a while to transition your body to burning fat for fuel rather than sugar. I was on the couch for the first week or so, but I was determined and now seven years later, it only feels Right.
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Ill try all of that :) Its sad that meat on its own isnt enough though
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it's because meat isn't a "whole food" you gotta realize the whole animal is a whole food, tongue, tendons, marrow, not just lean muscle meats :)
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That does make sense haha
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Hi Poncho!
Just a few things that come to my mind:
- Source of fat could be raw butter. It is my main source of fat. At times I ate as much as 81% fat for weight gain.
- The raw butter bettered my fatigue fast.
- I have been feeling more rested in the morning and sleeping better since raw butter.
- I transitioned slowly and did not feel too bad, just a bit tired sometimes. The hardest part was getting off of grains. I used to deal with hypoglycemia often.
Maybe try to take things a bit slower. I am not saying eat grains, but maybe try to eat more carbs until you can safely reduce.
- You can find certain rare foods online, we buy on Ebay too.
- Lamb - you can add that to your meats and every supermarket carries it.
It took my problems a few months to better. I'm sure you will improve soon!
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Okay perfect, Ill try to find raw butter. Ive actually never heard of anywhere selling it haha
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Okay perfect, Ill try to find raw butter. Ive actually never heard of anywhere selling it haha
AFAIK there is no source for raw butter in Canada, and importing it is expensive if possible.
However my normal diet is unsalted butter and powdered raw grass-finished beef - there is so little denatured protein in butter that it makes no problem.
With the iodine protocol to fill in common deficiencies this seems to be as close to a complete diet as anyone has found.
http://www.breastcancerchoices.org/iodine (http://www.breastcancerchoices.org/iodine)
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Okay perfect, Ill try to find raw butter. Ive actually never heard of anywhere selling it haha
http://www.realmilk.com/real-milk-finder/other-countries/#can (http://www.realmilk.com/real-milk-finder/other-countries/#can) You might find some of those farmers willing to sell raw butter as well - who knows?
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thanks :)
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I have an intolerance too many foods. My doctor said I probably had a carb intolerance....He put me on a no carb diet, but I didn't last 3 days. I thought I was dying. Felt light headed like I was going to pass out and felt weak. I'm also underweight. Now I know it's normal.
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Yep I thought I was dying. Im just eating lots of vegetables, berries, and honey now. A little more animal fat too but I still have almost no access to good animal fat. I feel great
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The food nazis in Canada are even crazier than the americans. its very hard to find raw dairy up there.
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Yep I thought I was dying. Im just eating lots of vegetables, berries, and honey now. A little more animal fat too but I still have almost no access to good animal fat. I feel great
Fatty fish can definitely be a good source of animal fats. Can you get raw WILD-caught salmon easily, or other fatty fish?
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Or find a farmer with grass fed animals and ask if they would sell you the suet.
I said it is for my sick underweight dog....
They never sent me the order though, but it might work.
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Yes I can get fatty fish, I have been. Im trying to find a farm haha. Very hard to do here surprisingly
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i think its very hard to do anywhere.
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Congrats Poncho! Best wishes for continued improvement. Fat sources I can think of at the moment, some of which have been mentioned, are egg yolks, suet, marrow, tongue, brain, pork belly, fatty cuts of meat, fatty wild fish, coconut, centrifuged coconut oil, avocado, olives, pork belly, lamb belly, beef belly, and raw butter.
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Yes I can get fatty fish, I have been. Im trying to find a farm haha. Very hard to do here surprisingly
Try calling the nearest slaughterhouse(s). Grass-finished animals are distinctive, as there is little or no fat on them, so they would know which farms are selling such.
There is still much fat around the kidneys, even on grass-finished, if you can stand the taste (sawdust and candlewax).
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or ask for grass fed soup bones and eat the marrow........its like butter
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Its really too easy in Ontario, its just different here