Paleo Diet: Raw Paleo Diet and Lifestyle Forum
Raw Paleo Diet Forums => Info / News Items / Announcements => Topic started by: 24isours on October 31, 2013, 09:09:24 pm
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I am very careful when it comes to my Vitamin A intake as I have experienced some problems with too much Retinol in my diet. For a long time I went by the USDA's 'Raw Beef Liver' Vitamin A content which is completely INACCURATE. Too much Vitamin A does indeed cause problems and I'm sure most of you are aware of this.
If we look below at the Raw Beef Liver Analaysis, it tells us there is
4732 IU of Vitamin A per 28 of grams liver or 95% of our daily value.
([url]http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/beef-products/3468/2]http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/beef-products/3468/2]([url]http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/beef-products/3468/2 (http://([url=http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/beef-products/3468/2))[/url]
Now when we look at the same serving size of 'Beef Liver, Cooked, Braised' it gives us a value of
8881 IU of Vitamin A per 28 grams of liver or 178% of our daily value!
http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/beef-products/3469/2 (http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/beef-products/3469/2)
So, depending on our Vitamin A stores to begin with this can be really dangerous for some of us; especially those who eat liver every day. When I first started eating liver every day I was eating almost 15,000 IU of Vitamin A. After a while I started getting a lot of headaches, nausea, weakness and some pain in my joints. When I lowered my intake these problems went away in a few days. I now eat no more than 12g of Raw Liver per day (a little less than 4,000 IU).
Adequate intake of Vitamin A
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3,500 IU For Adult Females
4,500 IU For Adult Males
Some symptoms of too much Vitamin A:
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Birth defects (> 8,000 IU / day) osteoporosis, hairloss, bone pain, elevated blood sugar, liver damage,headaches, dizziness, double vision, bleeding gums,seizures, confusion, dry / peeling skin, hydrocephaly,dry cough, asthma, liver damage (> 25,000 IU / day).
http://www.acu-cell.com/acn2.html#adk
(http://www.acu-cell.com/acn2.html#adk)
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Thanks for sharing. Are you certain that it was the liver that caused your symptoms? Did anything else about your diet change? I eat a lot of liver, and have never experienced the symptoms you note. I think there are a lot of other pathways involved in Vit A use that are involved in this issue, so if those are damaged or inoperable in you then you might have other issues to deal with that contribute to your problems.
With respect to the amount of VitA in liver, there's a huge amount of variability for all foods with respect to their nutrient densities. Some liver will have lower VitA, others will have much higher.
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I can't give a quantitative response, only a general one: remember that vitamins A and D have a relationship, and that vitamin K figures into the mix. A person eating liver, getting too little sunlight, and avoiding vitamin K-containing foods (like grass-fed animal meat) will easily show vitamin A toxicity. In a balanced RPD diet, this is not so much of a problem. The USDA allows studies that are questionable in light of RPD standards.
I eat a serving of excellent-quality liver every day or three. It has not been a problem.
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I am dubious re such claims. I used to overeat raw liver all the time and all that happened was that I got constant diarrhea as my body just did not want the extra nutrients from the livers.
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Thanks for sharing. Are you certain that it was the liver that caused your symptoms? Did anything else about your diet change? I eat a lot of liver, and have never experienced the symptoms you note. I think there are a lot of other pathways involved in Vit A use that are involved in this issue, so if those are damaged or inoperable in you then you might have other issues to deal with that contribute to your problems.
With respect to the amount of VitA in liver, there's a huge amount of variability for all foods with respect to their nutrient densities. Some liver will have lower VitA, others will have much higher.
When I reduced the amount of liver I was eating I started to feel much better. That was the only dietary change I had made at that time.
Perhaps damaged pathways or perhaps optimally functioning pathways?
I've read that toxicity in the liver can occur at intakes as low as 15,000 IU per day as well as possible negative effects on bone health above 4 or 5,000 IU's (if I remember correctly).
How much liver are/were you all eating per day/week?
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i felt terrible about a week or so after consuming ~20g of grassfed beef liver per day. had many of the same symptoms you described.
it's surprising to me the quantities of organ meat many people on this forum consume regularly without issue.. personally i find no need to include any in my diet and feel much better this way.
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How much liver are/were you all eating per day/week?
I eat about a pound of lamb liver per week.
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I think it might depend on how long you have been raw. I only ate organs once a month for the first 7 months of raw. Now I eat them every day. Although I too find that liver is better tolerated at very low doses and not every day. Vitamin A is a fat soluble vitamin therefore stores in your fat and if I am correct your body can pull it out as needed. So this means if we consume liver we are getting the Vitamin A for a couple days afterwards. So we would be fine only consuming it every couple days and none would go to waste like Tyler mentioned...
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I think it might depend on how long you have been raw. I only ate organs once a month for the first 7 months of raw. Now I eat them every day. Although I too find that liver is better tolerated at very low doses and not every day. Vitamin A is a fat soluble vitamin therefore stores in your fat and if I am correct your body can pull it out as needed. So this means if we consume liver we are getting the Vitamin A for a couple days afterwards. So we would be fine only consuming it every couple days and none would go to waste like Tyler mentioned...
Err, the intake I mentioned ingesting at the time was c. half a kilo of raw liver a day, max a kilo a day, plus mineral water for every alternate week, and it still did not harm me.
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I've wondered why I had consumed almost 1/2 pound of liver daily for a month and didn't get any signs of vitaminosis A. I felt great. I wanted to be careful though so I've since cut back. Plus I hit a point where I felt it was no longer necessary. Maybe an instinct of stop. Either way, I almost wonder if there is a difference for some people or perhaps with raw vitamin A? Nutritionists claim that vitamin A found in the form of animal foods (retinol) cannot be digested in excess but the vitamin A in plant foods can be. I think I've also read that plant food vitamin A is inefficient and needs to be converted to something else before being used. I think that was vitamin A. Maybe it was omega -3's. Maybe it's both. I can't remember.
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The only issue I could see is quality.
Are you sure you are getting pure pasture raised liver, along with a balanced diet of paleo quality foods?
What else are you eating?
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It seemed to take quite some time to start feeling the negative effects. I've been eating liver every day now for 2 years. I'd say after close to a year of doing this (@ an intake around 15,000 IU per day) the symptoms started. Obviously Vitamin A is fat soluble and builds up in the body; perhaps I was severely deficient and the body had major repairs to make before storing 'unused' retinol and now the stores are full?
If our bodies don't store excess retinol and just expel it, why has there been cases of toxicity?
I think you are talking about the conversion of beta carotene to true Vitamin A which isn't converted well at all in humans.
I'm pure carnivore and only eat ground beef (mixed with heart and liver) and beef fat.
Everything I eat is indeed 100% grass fed and quality shouldn't be an issue.
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I eat about a pound of lamb liver per week.
Have you been eating a lb of lamb liver per week consistently for a long period of time ?
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Maybe being low carb has something to do with it...
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How much liver are/were you all eating per day/week?
Typically about a pound per week, not counting the 'high' liver that's been aging in my refrigerator for 6+ months that I eat a few cubes of each day. In addition to liver, I eat other organ meats during the typical week. And as I think about it, I eat more organs each week than muscle meats, by mass.
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What percentage of fat intake is you diet?
It could be a Zero carb issue, especially if you are not getting enough fat, and getting to much protein
I eat a lot of different kinds of fats. The belly trimmings, intestinal fats, suet, bone marrow, brains, along with all the organ meats and blood.
When eating ZC I personally think its especially important to eat the entire animal, so that you get all the vitamins and minerals in there proper portions.
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What percentage of fat intake is you diet?
It could be a Zero carb issue, especially if you are not getting enough fat, and getting to much protein
I eat a lot of different kinds of fats. The belly trimmings, intestinal fats, suet, bone marrow, brains, along with all the organ meats and blood.
When eating ZC I personally think its especially important to eat the entire animal, so that you get all the vitamins and minerals in there proper portions.
250-270g of fat per day
70g protein
The only organ meat I get in is 12.5 g of heart and 12.5 g liver mixed in my meat per day.
I make sure to soak up all the blood with the meat.
I keep my protein intake low enough to stay completely fat adapted.
I also supplement with 4-5 teaspoons of sea salt per day..
I've been doing this for a while and have not had any problems.
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It might be the copper in the liver..... if you have got too much of it in your body - that reacts if you are in a high EMF environment. Unbalanced amounts of transition metals in our body becomes dangerous when we are exposed to high EMF. In cities today we are practically getting "microwaved" with wifi's and cellphones etc. You know what happens if you put copper in a microwave?
I would say good idea to stay away from liver for a while, your body knows what it needs
A high fat diet like you do it is the best diet to protect our body from the damage EMF does to our bodies, BTW. :)
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According to the database 100 grams of beef liver has 714 % daily value of Copper, when the same amount of lambs liver has only 354 % DV.
100 grams of Beef liver has 634 % DV vit. A when 100 grams lambs liver has 499 %. I guess lambs liver might the better choice for some of us at least?
I do wonder why lambs liver has a much higher inflammatory response (highly inflammatory when beef liver is only mildly inflammatory) according to the same nutrient database.. I do not understand... maybe it is because it is cooked?
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According to the database 100 grams of beef liver has 714 % daily value of Copper, when the same amount of lambs liver has only 354 % DV.
100 grams of Beef liver has 634 % DV vit. A when 100 grams lambs liver has 499 %. I guess lambs liver might the better choice for some of us at least?
I do wonder why lambs liver has a much higher inflammatory response (highly inflammatory when beef liver is only mildly inflammatory) according to the same nutrient database.. I do not understand... maybe it is because it is cooked?
Maybe or maybe it was more grainfed than the beef was?
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I am very careful when it comes to my Vitamin A intake as I have experienced some problems with too much Retinol in my diet. For a long time I went by the USDA's 'Raw Beef Liver' Vitamin A content which is completely INACCURATE. Too much Vitamin A does indeed cause problems and I'm sure most of you are aware of this.
If we look below at the Raw Beef Liver Analaysis, it tells us there is
4732 IU of Vitamin A per 28 of grams liver or 95% of our daily value.
([url=http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/beef-products/3468/2]http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/beef-products/3468/2]([url]http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/beef-products/3468/2]http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/beef-products/3468/2]http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/beef-products/3468/2]([url]http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/beef-products/3468/2 (http://([url=http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/beef-products/3468/2))[/url]
Now when we look at the same serving size of 'Beef Liver, Cooked, Braised' it gives us a value of
8881 IU of Vitamin A per 28 grams of liver or 178% of our daily value!
http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/beef-products/3469/2 (http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/beef-products/3469/2)
My guess is that the cooked liver has lost a lot of water, hence more concentrated than raw and why you see more vitamin A per the same weight.
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Sheep have less need for copper and in fact it can be very poisonous to them so it makes sense that they have less copper.
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Thank you for the great info, Inger! I'm going to experiment and try purchasing some lamb liver instead of beef liver in the future. Btw, the symptoms of high copper and high levels of Vitamin A are very similar. Maybe it is the copper after all. Also, Vitamin C is known to help flush out excess copper and whilst being pure carnivore (eating mostly muscle meat) I don't seem to get much of it. Maybe this is why some on this forum do better eating larger amounts of liver.
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I got some weird increased heart beats... I wonder if I ate too much fat? I truly gorged on it.... because I thought it was so delicious, and I digest it just perfectly well....
I think I might have gotten a too deep ketosis? that is what can happen too I found out.. and increased heart beat is one symptom. Have you ever experienced this 24isours?
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I got some weird increased heart beats... I wonder if I ate too much fat? I truly gorged on it.... because I thought it was so delicious, and I digest it just perfectly well....
I think I might have gotten a too deep ketosis? that is what can happen too I found out.. and increased heart beat is one symptom. Have you ever experienced this 24isours?
It could very well be your body adapting. I noticed when first adapting I had some palpitations that went away rather quickly. Did you increase your salt intake recently? Maybe you've increased it too much and are dehydrating yourself? Dehydration can cause palpitations/racing heart. It could be also be higher blood pressure (can cause faster heartbeats) due to an increase in salt as well.
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After doing some research for the past few days I came across some really interesting information about the relationship between Retinol (Vitamin A) and Iodide uptake: Retinol significantly increases Iodide uptake as well as protein iodination, therefore the more Vitamin A and protein one eats the more thyroid hormone the body produces.
I've been on a high dose of Iodide for over 3 years now (50+ mg per day). My experiment for the last few days has been to completely stop my Iodide supplementation for 2 days and at the same time increase my Retinol intake. Usually, when I increase my Vitamin A intake to current levels (even initially) I get the symptoms I mentioned earlier in this post. Well, the symptoms did not show up the first two days while doing this.
Today I decided to supplement again with a much smaller dose of Iodide (7mg) and to continue eating higher amounts of Vitamin A and so far so good! I actually feel even better!
So my conclusion:
Too much Iodide can cause Hyperthyroidism (this is proven in studies).
Combine too much Iodide and Vitamin A and you get symptoms of Hyperthyroidism which are identical to the symptoms I thought were being caused by too much Retinol.
Thanks for all the replies!
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WOW!!! Thanks so much for that info! I am going to try this because I have been at high doses of iodine. I am going to try to increase my liver consumption and drop the iodine. Will report.
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After doing some research for the past few days I came across some really interesting information about the relationship between Retinol (Vitamin A) and Iodide uptake: Retinol significantly increases Iodide uptake as well as protein iodination, therefore the more Vitamin A and protein one eats the more thyroid hormone the body produces.
Could you elaborate on what "protein iodination" means and also possibly post the links where you found that info?
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Generally speaking, from my own opinion supplements are not necessary on a properly balanced Raw Paleo diet.
If you were depleted of nutrients before going raw paleo you can correct the deficiency with diet alone.
Just eat the whole animal, along with a variety of plant foods that best suit your needs.
Eat bone marrow, organs, blood, glands, fats, etc. If you feel like you need iodine eat a raw thyroid gland from a clean pasture raised animal, or pig out on some raw sea food.
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Could you elaborate on what "protein iodination" means and also possibly post the links where you found that info?
It is basically the process of Iodine attaching to protein to increase production of Thyroid Hormones. Protein seems to stimulate thyroid function when the intake of Retinol is adequate.
Here is the link:
http://joe.endocrinology-journals.org/content/183/3/617.full.pdf (http://joe.endocrinology-journals.org/content/183/3/617.full.pdf)
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WOW!!! Thanks so much for that info! I am going to try this because I have been at high doses of iodine. I am going to try to increase my liver consumption and drop the iodine. Will report.
You are welcome, Dr. D! I took Iodine for quite a while to reach 'Iodine Sufficiency' and didn't lower my dose once I was saturated and that is when the problems started. I'm at around 7mg right now and may lower my dose even more. If you have been taking it for a while at high doses it would be smart to lower your dose. Whole body sufficiency takes about a year to achieve at 12.5mg per day.
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Yeah, I figured your symptoms had nothing to do with the liver you were eating. Nice job on sleuthing the real problem and finding the solution!
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we re all copper deficient...look up cooper and what it does in the body. i plant to eat 3.5 oz of raw liver per day for the copper. cant get oyster, they are expensive, £1.10/ oyster... if i eat 3 per day that would = £100 per month... i can get 1kg raw grass fed beef liver for £8.50
also copper is great against worms...
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Can they even test for the amount of vitamin A in liver without cooking it?
I think when you enter a food raw and how much of it you want to measure, all it means is that it's weighted raw, but it will go through cooking to be able to test it. So when you try the same food cooked, and enter the same weight or volume it will be a larger amount of the same food, as there's more water to start with, which is lost during cooking. Also sometimes fats drip out or burn out and go up as smoke during cooking. And some nutrients are always lost in boiling water, which becomes a broth after cooking just about anything in it.
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Can they even test for the amount of vitamin A in liver without cooking it?
I think when you enter a food raw and how much of it you want to measure, all it means is that it's weighted raw, but it will go through cooking to be able to test it. So when you try the same food cooked, and enter the same weight or volume it will be a larger amount of the same food, as there's more water to start with, which is lost during cooking. Also sometimes fats drip out or burn out and go up as smoke during cooking. And some nutrients are always lost in boiling water, which becomes a broth after cooking just about anything in it.
No, the usda nutrient database, for example, also tests the nutrient levels of some raw foods so that one can compare the nutrient levels of some raw foods with their cooked equivalents.