Paleo Diet: Raw Paleo Diet and Lifestyle Forum
Raw Paleo Diet Forums => General Discussion => Topic started by: Iguana on December 18, 2013, 06:03:04 am
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Doctors urge patients to 'stop wasting money' on vitamins (http://www.latimes.com/science/sciencenow/la-sci-sn-vitamin-supplements-waste-of-money-20131217,0,3582353.story#axzz2nlsW1Jhm)
By Karen Kaplan
December 17, 2013, 1:12 p.m.
Looking for ways to save money in 2014? Doctors have a tip: Stop buying vitamins.
Time after time, studies have shown that vitamin and mineral supplements don’t prevent disease or death. And yet consumers keep buying them, lament the authors of an editorial published in Tuesday’s edition of the Annals of Internal Medicine.
A 2011 report from the National Center for Health Statistics estimated that 53% of American adults used some type of supplement in the years 2003 to 2006, with multivitamin/multimineral formulations being the most popular. Those pills weren’t cheap – U.S. consumers spent $28 billion on them in 2010 alone, the editorial says.
Three new studies published in the Annals of Internal Medicine add yet more data to the mountain of evidence that most people get all the vitamins and minerals they need from food:
A meta-analysis conducted for the U.S. Preventive Services Task Force found “no consistent evidence that the included supplements affected CVD (cardiovascular disease), cancer, or all-cause mortality in healthy individuals without known nutritional deficiencies. Other systematic reviews have arrived at this same conclusion.” The analysis was based on the results of 27 studies involving more than 450,000 people.
A study involving nearly 6,000 male doctors age 65 and older found that cognitive function and verbal memory were no better in the men who took a daily multivitamin than in men who took a placebo. The doctors were tracked for 12 years.
Finally, a clinical trial testing whether a multivitamin could help prevent serious heart problems – including death – in patients who already had one heart attack concluded that the supplements didn’t help.
These results were right in line with other studies that have found “no clear benefit” from taking multivitamins, antioxidants, folic acid and B vitamins, the editorial says.
And those are the good outcomes. Trials of beta-carotene, vitamin E and high doses of vitamin A linked those supplements with an increased risk of premature death.
As far as the five editorial writers are concerned, the jury is still out on only one supplement – vitamin D. Studies to assess whether extra vitamin D could prevent falls in older people have had mixed results. As researchers continue to sort this out, consumers should be aware that there’s no “solid evidence” that this vitamin will be helpful to most people.
“The message is simple: Most supplements do not prevent chronic disease or death, their use is not justified, and they should be avoided,” the five physicians write.
And just in case that message is not simple enough, the headline spells things out even more clearly – “Enough is Enough: Stop Wasting Money on Vitamin and Mineral Supplements.”
http://www.latimes.com/science/sciencenow/la-sci-sn-vitamin-supplements-waste-of-money-20131217,0,3582353.story#ixzz2nluqHgGs (http://www.latimes.com/science/sciencenow/la-sci-sn-vitamin-supplements-waste-of-money-20131217,0,3582353.story#ixzz2nluqHgGs)
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I'm not advocating here for or against. I personally think everyone needs to make decisions for themselves on what they choose to do with their bodies. But there are a number of things wrong with that article.
http://www.latimes.com/science/sciencenow/la-sci-sn-vitamin-supplements-waste-of-money-20131217,0,3582353.story#axzz2nlsW1Jhm (http://www.latimes.com/science/sciencenow/la-sci-sn-vitamin-supplements-waste-of-money-20131217,0,3582353.story#axzz2nlsW1Jhm)
"A study involving nearly 6,000 male doctors age 65 and older found that cognitive function and verbal memory were no better in the men who took a daily multivitamin than in men who took a placebo. The doctors were tracked for 12 years."
Generally speaking, a multivitamin doesn't do anything for cognitive function. That sort of generalized supplementing doesn't do much good except in the case of SAD'ers who can very often not get sufficient quantities of nutrients from the processed, low nutrient foods they consume. So to say someone shouldn't take supplements because taking a multivitamin didn't increase cognitive capacity for people of an older age group is far fetched. Not just that but most multivitamins are of very poor quality.
To give an example, GNC, a leading manufacturer/distributor of vitamin supplements and health products, makes multivitamins that people (like myself) who are experienced with supplements will see aren't the best formulations. A lot of consumers purchase supplements like these without doing their homework.
http://www.gnc.com/product/index.jsp?productId=4033434 (http://www.gnc.com/product/index.jsp?productId=4033434) - under supplement facts you can see what vitamins are in it.
1) It contains folic acid, which studies are showing the body isn't able to use very well. The body has to go through several conversions before it's useable for anything. A lot of people carry genetic mutations that make it especially difficult for them to make the conversions into the active form. The best forms of folate are methylfolate, and folinic acid. New studies are actually showing folic acid is bad.
2) It contains the cyanocobalamin form of B12. The active forms are methylcobalamin and 5-adenosylcobalamin. Again, the body has a hard time converting cyanocobalamin into the active forms.
3) It has magnesium oxide. That's a very poor form of magnesium
And really, the GNC multivitamin is one of the better ones. There are cheaper ones that are even worse. Those products are the ones to avoid.
However multivitamins like this (the one I use) - http://www.giprohealth.com/scdcomplete.aspx (http://www.giprohealth.com/scdcomplete.aspx) - have all the active forms of all the vitamins.
Getting back to the article.
"Finally, a clinical trial testing whether a multivitamin could help prevent serious heart problems – including death – in patients who already had one heart attack concluded that the supplements didn’t help."
Again, saying a multivitamin is going to "prevent serious heart problems - including death - in patients who already had one heart attack" is expecting a lot from a multivitamin.
"These results were right in line with other studies that have found “no clear benefit” from taking multivitamins, antioxidants, folic acid and B vitamins, the editorial says."
Figures, odds are the multivitamins , folic acid, and b complex vitamins all contained the inactive forms of the vitamins which can be bad.
In short, supplements used appropriately can help all sorts of things. The article's main take away was that you shouldn't use supplements because there's no proof taking multivitamins prevents decline in cognitive capacity or serious heart problems in people who have already had heart attacks. But it's far fetched to expect such things from taking multivitamins (especially the formulations most use without researching the right one to take).
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When P5P stops working for Phil, and vitamin D stops working for me, then maybe you'll have a point, Iguana. Until then, I'm going to stick with what's working. Certainly not all supplements are for all people. However....
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cherimoya kid, how do you tell Vit. D is working for you?
Vit. D is the only supplement I am taking since I am not a sun person.
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When P5P stops working for Phil, and vitamin D stops working for me, then maybe you'll have a point, Iguana.
CK, It's not specifically my point: I quoted an article of the LA Times. My point, in any case, is that supplements are not paleo. Since they are chemically pure synthetic substances, there's no way to properly dose them according to one's current needs. They can even be noxious at low doses and they are likely to disturb the nutritional equilibrium.
Da Boss, I wouldn't comment on this before having read the scientific studies the journalist is talking about without having a good knowledge and understanding of the subject.
Joy, I second your question. Grain and dairy worked well for me during 23 years and coffee works fine for coffee drinkers: once again you can't tell about long term results on the base of short term results.
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When P5P stops working for Phil, and vitamin D stops working for me, then maybe you'll have a point, Iguana. Until then, I'm going to stick with what's working. Certainly not all supplements are for all people. However....
And when niacin and my orthomolecular routine stop working for me.
Da Boss, I wouldn't comment on this before having read the scientific studies the journalist is talking about without having a good knowledge and understanding of the subject.
The authors summarized the studies/articles they were referencing. They essentially said, "multivitamins didn't prevent cognitive decline in doctors over 60 years old, and multivitamins don't prevent death in people who have had heart attacks"
Here's the article titled "Enough Is Enough: Stop Wasting Money on Vitamin and Mineral Supplements," found @ http://annals.org/article.aspx?articleid=1789253 (http://annals.org/article.aspx?articleid=1789253)
Here's what the study #1 had to say
Oral High-Dose Multivitamins and Minerals After Myocardial Infarction - http://annals.org/article.aspx?articleid=1789248 (http://annals.org/article.aspx?articleid=1789248)
"Background: Whether high-dose multivitamins are effective for secondary prevention of atherosclerotic disease is unknown."
"Objective: To assess whether oral multivitamins reduce cardiovascular events and are safe."
So the purpose of that study was to find if a high dose multivitamin was beneficial for preventing a second heart attack.
Their own study claimed that they found no adverse effects from including the vitamins.
"Conclusion: High-dose oral multivitamins and multiminerals did not statistically significantly reduce cardiovascular events in patients after MI who received standard medications. However, this conclusion is tempered by the nonadherence rate."
They also say their own study may not have been that thorough from the high volume of people who gave up on the study.
"Conclusion: High-dose oral multivitamins and multiminerals did not statistically significantly reduce cardiovascular events in patients after MI who received standard medications. However, this conclusion is tempered by the nonadherence rate."
Study #2 checked how effective a multivitamin was in reducing cognitive function in people over 65, over 65 is generally where cognitive function starts to decline (sometimes sooner).
Long-Term Multivitamin Supplementation and Cognitive Function in Men - http://annals.org/article.aspx?articleid=1789250 (http://annals.org/article.aspx?articleid=1789250)
"Objective: To evaluate whether long-term multivitamin supplementation affects cognitive health in later life."
"Patients: 5947 male physicians aged 65 years or older."
"Conclusion: In male physicians aged 65 years or older, long-term use of a daily multivitamin did not provide cognitive benefits."
So this study was to show that cognitive function didn't improve in people over 65 by taking a multivitamin.
Study # 3 - Vitamin and Mineral Supplements in the Primary Prevention of Cardiovascular Disease and Cancer: An Updated Systematic Evidence Review for the U.S. Preventive Services Task Force - http://annals.org/article.aspx?articleid=1767855 (http://annals.org/article.aspx?articleid=1767855)
"Purpose: To systematically review evidence for the benefit and harms of vitamin and mineral supplements in community-dwelling, nutrient-sufficient adults for the primary prevention of cardiovascular disease (CVD) and cancer."
How the study was conducted -
"Data Synthesis: Two large trials (n = 27 658) reported lower cancer incidence in men taking a multivitamin for more than 10 years (pooled unadjusted relative risk, 0.93 [95% CI, 0.87 to 0.99]). The study that included women showed no effect in that group. High-quality studies (k = 24; n = 324 653) of single and paired nutrients (such as vitamins A, C, or D; folic acid; selenium; or calcium) were scant and heterogeneous and showed no clear evidence of benefit or harm. Neither vitamin E nor ?-carotene prevented CVD or cancer, and ?-carotene increased lung cancer risk in smokers."
"Conclusion: Limited evidence supports any benefit from vitamin and mineral supplementation for the prevention of cancer or CVD. Two trials found a small, borderline-significant benefit from multivitamin supplements on cancer in men only and no effect on CVD."
Again, these doctors are basing their findings that people shouldn't use vitamin/mineral supplements based on
1) a multivitamin not preventing cancer (study #3)
2) a multivitamin not preventing second heart attacks and death in people who have already had heart attacks
3) a multivitamin not preventing cognitive decline in people over 65
Again, expecting a multivitamin to 1) prevent cancer, 2) prevent heart attacks in people who have already had heart attacks, or 3) reduce cognitive decline in people over 65 is absurd. Therefore the proof that all supplements are ineffective for all reasons is not there. All they've proved is that a multivitamin can't prevent cancer, fix heart problems post-heart attack, or improve cognitive function in old people.
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The article mentions 27 studies. What about the other 24 ?
And those are the good outcomes. Trials of beta-carotene, vitamin E and high doses of vitamin A linked those supplements with an increased risk of premature death
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I would not say supplements are always bad. But I would be very careful.......
Even vitamin D is meant to be cyclic - our body has its own cycles and things are not always the same, vit D status should vary according to the season... as also vitamin A.. and maybe many other. We know way too little at this point in science. That is why I think to get it the natural way is way way better. And the other way... is always some risk.....
I do try some supps out here and there but it is pretty half hearted as I deep in my core know only the real thing is optimal.
I do think when someone is very messed up and have not possibilities to do the real thing (back to nature) they could be of help.
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We know way too little at this point in science. That is why I think to get it the natural way is way way better. And the other way... is always some risk.....
Exactly! Why would we need synthetic supplements while on a RPD? It makes no sense.
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In my very ill pre-rawpaleodiet days I would buy tons of supplements, costing about 300 pounds sterling a month. They were always a waste of time, other than homeopathic remedies which helped temporarily get rid of some symptoms but never actually got rid of the overall health-problems.
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Exactly! Why would we need synthetic supplements while on a RPD? It makes no sense.
Daboss needed supplement because he relapsed when he stoped taking niacin even in a raw paleo diet
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The article mentions 27 studies. What about the other 24 ?
Feel free to post links to those studies, and I'll go through them and show what's wrong with each of them. However on the website they only show links to three studies, and the entire article isn't accessible unless you subscribe. Still, I'm willing to bet that all those studies were done in a similar fashion to the three I mentioned.
Giving multivitamins to people with cancer and seeing the cancer doesn't go away. Or giving someone Vitamin E by itself and nothing happening. Or giving isolated Vitamin A and seeing it had a mildly negative effect. That's the kind of science that goes in the mainstream to show that all sorts of things are a waste of money.
Like studies showing organic is no better than non organic. - http://med.stanford.edu/ism/2012/september/organic.html (http://med.stanford.edu/ism/2012/september/organic.html)
And studies showing free range eggs are the same to conventional eggs - http://www.aeb.org/food-manufacturers/all-about-egg-products/facts-about-egg-production (http://www.aeb.org/food-manufacturers/all-about-egg-products/facts-about-egg-production)
"The nutrient content of eggs from the same breed of hen fed the same diet is not affected by whether hens are raised free-range or in floor or conventional operations. It is solely determined by the feed."
I wouldn't expect studies the way they're conducting them to prove anything. Taking isolated supplements without a reason wouldn't do much for illnesses. Ie. giving someone vitamin a won't prevent a heart attack. Giving someone B complex won't improve their cognitive function at 80 years old.
Feel free to post the studies, I'm more than happy to take a look at them.
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Our animal and hominid ancestors never ate supplements but were nevertheless more healthy than us, civilized people overloaded with synthetic vitamins, supplements and other products of the pharmaceutical / chemical industry. Cooking destroy some vitamins, right? Then by eating a suitably varied raw diet, we get all the vitamins we need. A need of supplements means there’s something missing or wrong in our diet. Just type “natural vs synthetic vitamins” on Google and you’ll find plenty of similar explanations as the excerpts below, from the first website listed by Google - which seems to be from a vegan website, but it doesn’t matter on this point.
Almost all multivitamins are from synthetics. The same goes for fortified foods. There’s a good reason for this. Synthetic vitamins are cheaper to make and usually more stable. This means they can last on shelves for months or years, be added to foods in high doses, and create dense tablets that won’t be too big to take along with some fillers and binders. These vitamins are allowed to call themselves “natural” even when they are synthetic because they are considered virtually identical to the ones found in food.
The way these compounds are made is not remotely similar to the metabolic processes that plants and animals use. The finished product is also usually a compound not found in nature in any such form. These synthetic vitamins, according to a multitude of studies, are not as bioavailable, absorbable, or usable. These “virtually identical” vitamins are not what we find in natural foods. They are not recognizable to the body, are hard on the kidneys, and can be treated as toxins.
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Vitamins should come from food sources as much as possible. If you want a multivitamin, reach for ones that use whole food sources like holy basil, guava, and other herbs, fruits, and vegetables. Synthetic vitamins are isolated or simulated nutrients that do not take into account all the countless phytonutrients that come along with them. Nature is not a select few things. We are only beginning to understand how many of the lesser known compounds in plants react with one another as we eat them, but we do know humanity has been eating whole foods for a very long time. We have evolved to recognize the whole, not individual chemicals that have been created to approximate an essential vitamin.
Avoid supplements that use words ending in -ide, acid, or that use the “dl” before the name.
Minerals are the same. They are not considered organic materials as they come initially from the earth, but plants incorporate them into their systems and combine them with organic compounds. This is how our bodies know them and incorporate them as well. Minerals are combined with proteins to form enzymes or to aid in the movement of oxygen. Get minerals from plant sources as much as possible too. Your body is begging you for the vitamins and minerals it knows.
- See more at: http://www.sunwarrior.com/news/natural-vs-synthetic-vitamins/#sthash.PjDxpkZD.dpuf (http://www.sunwarrior.com/news/natural-vs-synthetic-vitamins/#sthash.PjDxpkZD.dpuf)
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You've just switched the topic from the 24 studies that went unaddressed to something else.
I'd like to point out that the website you linked - http://www.sunwarrior.com/news/natural-vs-synthetic-vitamins/#sthash.PjDxpkZD.dpuf (http://www.sunwarrior.com/news/natural-vs-synthetic-vitamins/#sthash.PjDxpkZD.dpuf) - contains zero references when making claims like "These synthetic vitamins, according to a multitude of studies, are not as bioavailable, absorbable, or usable. These “virtually identical” vitamins are not what we find in natural foods. They are not recognizable to the body, are hard on the kidneys, and can be treated as toxins." Same applies to most websites that make claims about "natural vs synthetic vitamins." I'd like to see the multitude of studies they're referencing.
Again, I don't advocate for or against. I think people need to make decisions for themselves on how they choose to take care of their bodies.
The science saying to avoid supplements is mediocre at best. Most studies are like the 3 I discussed in my other post. There's very little to no evidence showing all vitamins/mineral supplements are bad. There are differences between certain types of vitamins/minerals and what's found in food. For example folic acid is only found in supplements/fortified foods and not at all in food. Still there are folate supplements available that contain the active forms. There are other examples, but all supplements can't be categorized together because of these few exceptions.
It's interesting that for some on this forum, when they find studies (or any info for that matter) that support their views, they immediately use it to support their view. Without looking at it objectively to see if the studies are valid, conducted in a manner that would support their conclusions, or if the authors are just making it up.
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quote from Joy2012
cherimoya kid, how do you tell Vit. D is working for you?
It controls my tooth plaque, dermatitis/dandruff, tooth sensitivity, insomnia, and various other annoying little problems. When I stop taking it, those problems come back.
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CK, wouldn't it mean that you miss natural vitamin D? Don't you go enough in the sun?
The science saying to avoid supplements is mediocre at best. Most studies are like the 3 I discussed in my other post. There's very little to no evidence showing all vitamins/mineral supplements are bad.
We don't need such evidence: on the contrary, it belongs to the pharmaceutical industry to prove that their products are totally safe because these substances had never been in the environment in such a form until they started to make them.
It's the same for all synthetic chemicals, be they pesticides, medicine, food additive, etc.
It's also the case of cooked foods: we don't have to prove that cooked food are noxious. It's the duty of the scientists pretending that cooked foods are safe to prove it, something which has never been done. ;)
All this springs from the elementary precautionary principle.
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We don't need such evidence: on the contrary, it belongs to the pharmaceutical industry to prove that their products are totally safe because these substances had never been in the environment in such a form until they started to make them.
It's the same for all synthetic chemicals, be they pesticides, medicine, food additive, etc.
It's also the case of cooked foods: we don't have to prove that cooked food are noxious. It's the duty of the scientists pretending that cooked foods are safe to prove it, something which has never been done. ;)
All this springs from the elementary precautionary principle.
Feel free to group supplements with pharmaceutical drugs, pesticides, and cooked foods. I know your mind is made on whether or not supplements are useful.
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Iguana if it makes no sense to take supplements on a rpd could you explain me why Daboss relapsed when he stopped niacin? That's a very simple question but it looks like you don't want to answer me.
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I don't know, Papangue.
There can be many reasons: improperly balanced diet, some specific foodstuff(s) missing in the diet, habituation to the supplement, etc.
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I too have wondered if DaBoss could indeed get off supplements. And maybe it comes from Wanting to believe that our instincts have the ability to seek out what we need. Our mental thoughts about what we read including studies, what we think we're going to eat the next meal, and or course what we think constitutes an optimal diet plan all potentially fall outside of the circle of thoughts that we allow ourselves to be guided by. Or another way of saying all this is; there's so much we don't know. And, maybe knowing is not something frozen in time, it may simply evolve with every meal.
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Realistically speaking, no scientific evidence genuinely exists to show that supplements are anywhere near as good as the real thing.
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quote from Joy2012
It controls my tooth plaque, dermatitis/dandruff, tooth sensitivity, insomnia, and various other annoying little problems. When I stop taking it, those problems come back.
CK, thanks for reply.
Iguana and all others, I fully agree that the real thing (through diet and sun exposure) is better than supplement. However, sun exposure causes wrinkles and ages skins; and acquiring enough Vit. D through diet alone is mission impossible.
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I too have wondered if DaBoss could indeed get off supplements. And maybe it comes from Wanting to believe that our instincts have the ability to seek out what we need. Our mental thoughts about what we read including studies, what we think we're going to eat the next meal, and or course what we think constitutes an optimal diet plan all potentially fall outside of the circle of thoughts that we allow ourselves to be guided by. Or another way of saying all this is; there's so much we don't know. And, maybe knowing is not something frozen in time, it may simply evolve with every meal.
It's something a lot of members have implied, suggested, and encouraged doing. I have been there and the outcome wasn't pretty. I was low fat raw paleo when I initially discontinued my supplements and had the relapse. I was later high fat raw paleo, still without supplements, and not doing very well. It was when I later reintroduced the supplements that I really saw improvements. Supplements + RPD have lead to a greater outcome than just supplements alone with a cooked diet. A raw diet alone lead to a worse outcome than just supplements without much attention to diet. I'm not saying that's the norm, we're all different, but there's a reason Dr. Hoffer got great results treating schizophrenics with high dose niacin - because it works. Not because he had yet to discover the wonderful benefits RPD has in treating schizophrenia. RPD is not something that needs to replace my orthomolecular routine, but rather something that needs to be used with it. I've learned that from experience.
I understand a lot of people want to think diet is the cure all in every situation, but that's not the case. Even within this forum we can't reach a general consensus of what a good/optimal diet is. Some eat more plant foods, and only some animal foods. Some eat no salt, some eat a lot of salt. Some eat mainly animal foods. Some take supplements. Some think you should only eat what tastes good. Others go for what's in season. Some eat high fat, some eat less. Everyone argues for their point of view and what's currently working for them. I think it's best we all accept everyone can be doing something different, and still be getting good results. We're all different.
We don't need such evidence: on the contrary, it belongs to the pharmaceutical industry to prove that their products are totally safe because these substances had never been in the environment in such a form until they started to make them.
I'd just like to point out, you started out showing an article as strong evidence not to use supplements. After debunking those studies (the 3 I had access to). You then linked a website that provided zero references when comparing synthetic and natural vitamins, which also happened to be selling "raw" whole food vitamins. Now you're saying we don't need such evidence.
I'd also like to point out that the pharmaceutical industry doesn't manufacture vitamin supplements. In fact, pharmaceutical companies have zero interest in proving supplements efficacy or safety since they're such a competitive force in the market place.
Our animal and hominid ancestors never ate supplements but were nevertheless more healthy than us, civilized people overloaded with synthetic vitamins, supplements and other products of the pharmaceutical / chemical industry.
We're not a whole lot like our animal and hominid ancestors, our environment is also nothing like it was in those times. Humans have likely degraded/devolved in all sorts of ways since those times. The environment today is not what it was then.
Links on the possibility of human devolution -
http://www.naturalnews.com/037942_humans_devolving_brain_function.html (http://www.naturalnews.com/037942_humans_devolving_brain_function.html)
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=is-the-human-race-evolvin (http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=is-the-human-race-evolvin)
There is a lot of scientific evidence showing that humans are losing the ability to convert nutrients into the forms they need. One example is with MTHFR and having difficulty converting folate into methylfolate which has a number of implications. There are other examples to, like limited glutathione production, and improper neurotransmitter production.
I don't know, Papangue.
There can be many reasons: improperly balanced diet, some specific foodstuff(s) missing in the diet, habituation to the supplement, etc.
I understand that a lot of people on this forum have very dogmatic views toward diet, and that for some they'll never accept that supplements could be helpful. Troll of The Dungeon (TOD) had a similar view, and that's ok.
Realistically speaking, no scientific evidence genuinely exists to show that supplements are anywhere near as good as the real thing.
There are actually quite a few studies showing that certain vitamins can be as good as the real thing, and that certain vitamins can provide real world benefits when applied properly.
Articles showing SOME vitamins to be absorbed just as well from supplements
Article comparing synthetic to natural vitamins - http://lpi.oregonstate.edu/infocenter/vitamins/vitaminC/vitCform.html (http://lpi.oregonstate.edu/infocenter/vitamins/vitaminC/vitCform.html)
"Natural vs. synthetic ascorbic acid
Natural and synthetic L-ascorbic acid are chemically identical, and there are no known differences in their biological activity. The possibility that the bioavailability of L-ascorbic acid from natural sources might differ from that of synthetic ascorbic acid was investigated in at least two human studies, and no clinically significant differences were observed. A study of 12 males (6 smokers and 6 nonsmokers) found the bioavailability of synthetic ascorbic acid (powder administered in water) to be slightly superior to that of orange juice, based on blood levels of ascorbic acid, and not different based on ascorbic acid in leukocytes (white blood cells) (1). A study in 68 male nonsmokers found that ascorbic acid consumed in cooked broccoli, orange juice, orange slices, and as synthetic ascorbic acid tablets are equally bioavailable, as measured by plasma ascorbic acid levels (2, 3)."
Articles showing megadosing to have benefits
Article on niacin's ability to improve cholesterol profiles - http://lpi.oregonstate.edu/infocenter/vitamins/niacin/ (http://lpi.oregonstate.edu/infocenter/vitamins/niacin/)
"High cholesterol and cardiovascular disease
Pharmacologic doses of niacin, but not nicotinamide, have been known to reduce serum cholesterol since 1955 (54). Today, niacin is commonly prescribed with other lipid-lowering medications. However, one randomized, placebo-controlled, multicenter trial examined the effect of niacin acid therapy, alone, on outcomes of cardiovascular disease. Specifically, the Coronary Drug Project (CDP) followed over 8,000 men with a previous myocardial infarction (heart attack) for six years (55). Compared to the placebo group, patients who took 3 grams of niacin daily experienced an average 10% reduction in total blood cholesterol, a 26% decrease in triglycerides, a 27% reduction in recurrent nonfatal myocardial infarction, and a 26% reduction in cerebrovascular events (stroke and transient ischemic attacks). Although niacin therapy did not decrease total deaths or deaths from cardiovascular disease during the six-year study period, post-trial follow up nine years later revealed a 10% reduction in total deaths with niacin treatment. Four out of five major cardiovascular outcome trials found niacin in combination with other therapies to be of statistically significant benefit in men and women (56). Niacin therapy markedly increases HDL-cholesterol levels, decreases serum Lp(a) (lipoprotein-a) concentrations, and shifts small, dense LDL particles to large, buoyant LDL particles. All of these changes in the blood lipid profile are considered cardioprotective."
Japanese study using mega doses of Vitamin K2 to treat osteoporosis - http://lpi.oregonstate.edu/infocenter/vitamins/vitaminK/ (http://lpi.oregonstate.edu/infocenter/vitamins/vitaminK/)
"In Japan, intervention trials in hemodialysis patients and osteoporotic women using very high pharmacologic doses (45 mg/day) of menatetrenone (MK-4) have reported significant reductions in the rate of bone loss (33, 34). MK-4 is not found in significant amounts in the diet, but it can be synthesized in small amounts by humans from phylloquinone. A recent meta-analysis of seven Japanese randomized controlled trials associated menatetrenone-4 supplementation with increased BMD and reduced fracture incidence (35), but this meta-analysis did not include data from an unpublished study that reported no effect on fracture risk (36). Nevertheless, the meta-analysis reported that MK-4 supplementation lowered risk for vertebral fractures by 60%, hip fractures by 77%, and nonvertebral fractures by 81%; all associations were statistically significant. Six of the individual trials employed 45 mg of menatetrenone daily, while one trial used 15 mg of menatetrenone daily (35). The 45 mg/day dose of menatetrenone was also used in a more recent 3-year placebo-controlled intervention trial in 325 postmenopausal women. This study found that supplemental menatetrenone improved measures of bone strength compared to placebo (37). The doses used in most of the cited studies are about 500 times higher than the AI for vitamin K. Some experts are not sure whether the effects of such high doses of MK-4 represent a true vitamin K effect. "
Article confirming there are differences between SOME synthetic and natural vitamins - http://orthomolecular.org/resources/omns/v08n03.shtml (http://orthomolecular.org/resources/omns/v08n03.shtml)
The link shows that Vitamin C is the same, but there are some vitamins that have exceptions. Like magnesium and Vitamin E. There are other exceptions which I've mentioned, like folic acid/folate.
I'd like to point out that all of those links have the studies they base their information on referenced, and they ALL have studies done.
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There is plenty of scientific evidence to show that processed supplements, such a synthetic vitamins, are nowhere near as good as the natural equivalent found in food. The ridiculous claim re vitamin C, that since they are chemically the same they must act the same on the human body, is easily disproved when one considers that natural vitamin C is bound up with coenzymes and other factors which make it quite different.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11090291 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11090291)
This article points out many of the flaws in synthetic vitamins:-
http://freepdfhosting.com/c0ed925b25.pdf (http://freepdfhosting.com/c0ed925b25.pdf)
http://www.naturalnews.com/040157_synthetic_vitamins_supplements_whole_food.html (http://www.naturalnews.com/040157_synthetic_vitamins_supplements_whole_food.html)
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Thanks, Tyler.
I think there's a strong danger of overdose with synthetic vitamins (amongst other problems). That’s certainly because they are not intertwined with other substances (you mention coenzymes) to form the extremely complex organic structures embedded in a natural food. You can't eat unlimited amounts of a particular food, especially when unprocessed and unmixed, but you can easily ingest uncontrolled amounts of synthetic or pure substances such as vitamins and various supplements.
Even small doses regularly ingested may disturb the alimentary balance.
That said, supplements may be useful to some extend in case of deficiencies of the natural substance.
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There is plenty of scientific evidence to show that processed supplements, such a synthetic vitamins, are nowhere near as good as the natural equivalent found in food. The ridiculous claim re vitamin C, that since they are chemically the same they must act the same on the human body, is easily disproved when one considers that natural vitamin C is bound up with coenzymes and other factors which make it quite different.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11090291 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11090291)
I'll start with this article. I don't have access to it, and I don't think you do either. If you like you could post what the study information was, but without having access to it and only being able to read the title, I don't think it's very helpful.
http://www.naturalnews.com/040157_synthetic_vitamins_supplements_whole_food.html (http://www.naturalnews.com/040157_synthetic_vitamins_supplements_whole_food.html)
This one mainly mentions additives, which should be avoided anyway. I avoid all of those additives in my supplements.
It also mentions synthetic Vitamin E, which I agree completely isn't good. There are other examples which I've mentioned various times throughout this post.
This article points out many of the flaws in synthetic vitamins:-
http://freepdfhosting.com/c0ed925b25.pdf (http://freepdfhosting.com/c0ed925b25.pdf)
This article was nice. I enjoyed going through their references.
References # 2 and 4 didn't work.
Reference #3 is about artificial sugar which I don't consume.
Reference #5 mentions artificial folic acid, which I've already said is a bad product.
Reference #6 gave me a good laugh.
Reference # 6 - http://lemonite22.blogspot.com/2010/06/is-synthetic-vitamins-safe-to-consume.html (http://lemonite22.blogspot.com/2010/06/is-synthetic-vitamins-safe-to-consume.html)
" Is synthetic vitamins safe to consume?
There is somehow a good debates on the use of synthetic vitamins for those who really think that by consuming all those vitamins or any health supplemets , they will be medically fit.
Here again,i come across various opinions by youngkies, jerk and entrymen from LYN which i think everyone of us should really ponder.
I always believe that the public has the right to know about what they are putting into their mouth but could this backfire on the public?
Most of the time, when someone walks into a pharmacy, they are expecting some relieve for the symptoms they are experiencing. So as pharmacist, i believe the roles plyed by them is to ensure the right doses and the right prescriptions are to be given to them."
Exceptional grammar. I'd like to point out that a lot of the websites they reference in their article don't use references themselves.
Reference #9 again mentions how a multivitamin didn't have any effect on cancer.
Reference #11 is actually a repeat of reference # 6, which had the excellent display of grammar.
Reference # 12 is a repeat of reference #7, which is telling the differences between synthetic and natural while also selling their own product line.
Reference # 13 is a repeat of reference #8.
Reference #14 is a repeat of reference # 9.
I stopped going through the references at #14, but there are a lot more repeats. And again, most of them are links to websites that don't have references themselves, which pretty much throws their credibility out the window.
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I'd also like to point out that the pharmaceutical industry doesn't manufacture vitamin supplements. In fact, pharmaceutical companies have zero interest in proving supplements efficacy or safety since they're such a competitive force in the market place.
Geigy who became Ciba-Geigy and then Novartis after fusionning with Sandoz was the evil Swiss company that poisoned the whole planet with DDT. It’s well known that Ciba-Geigy, Sandoz and Novartis were / are large producers of pharmaceutics as well as pesticides and… synthetic vitamins! Basel in Switzerland at the border of France and Germany is a town where such chemicals are manufactured. I've been there quite regularly with trucks and I sometimes even transported such shit.
Here is a list of companies making pesticides, medicines and synthetic vitamins :
http://sites.commercecreators.com/folder2674/index.cfm?fuseaction=browse&id=6013&pageid=1175 (http://sites.commercecreators.com/folder2674/index.cfm?fuseaction=browse&id=6013&pageid=1175)
Many of the largest selling mass market supplement brands are owned and made by large pharmaceutical companies. These companies are already set up for the production and distribution of drugs made from chemicals. Making chemically derived supplements or owning companies that make them fits in well with their business model. They also get to hedge their bets by owning supplement companies. They make money when people get sick and use drugs, and they make money when people try to avoid getting sick by using supplements. They win either way. That's why more and more buy-outs of small supplement companies is by pharmaceutical giants.
I won’t waste my time to read that whole webpage but you’ll certainly do in view to be able to point out some mistakes or lack of serious references… You would be a very good lawyer, sincere congrats!
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Very conceited. I am hardly going to spend 31.5 dollars for most every blasted scientific reference I come up with. If you genuinely want to debunk this piece which, if not in detail, does condemn synthetic vitamins, pay the cash yourself.
I find it extremely difficult to believe that you use only supplements with absolutely no fillers in them. Almost all artificial supplements have these trans-fats or whatever in them as it makes it far easier to manufacture them. There are a tiny few producers who do not use such fillers(like Dr Ron Schmid) but even he has to increase the price of his products substantially in order to use such methods.
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http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7477116 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7477116)
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You would be a very good lawyer, sincere congrats!
Lol, so I've been told. But really you guys are posting all these articles to support your views that supplements are bad, and none of you are even checking to see if it's credible information. I don't think those are lawyer skills but just basic investigating.
Like I said in a previous post, you guys have a tendency to post info that supports your views without looking into it to see if the information is valid.
Like the first article which showed studies on multivitamins being unable to prevent cancer, heart attacks (in people who have already had one), and decline in cognitive function (in people over 65). Then your link from a company selling raw food supplements. Then Tyler's from a website who might as well have been making up most of what their website said. Not to mention the study he used to back his claim based on its title.
You see the problem with that? You're digging up any information you can to support your views, and most of it isn't even valid. If you're going to use an article to support your views, you can't say it's supportive based on the title, without having even read the article. With that kind of logic, the studies claiming vitamins are useless because a multivitamin didn't prevent a second heart attack or death in people who have already had heart attacks is valid. That kind of logic essentially says, "why even look at the study if it supports my point of view?"
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7477116 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7477116)
That article was done on synthetic Vitamin A. There are various examples of specific vitamins that when synthetic can be problematic. I've been saying that this whole time. Here are some examples.
Magnesium forms and absorption - http://ods.od.nih.gov/factsheets/Magnesium-HealthProfessional/ (http://ods.od.nih.gov/factsheets/Magnesium-HealthProfessional/)
"Absorption of magnesium from different kinds of magnesium supplements varies. Forms of magnesium that dissolve well in liquid are more completely absorbed in the gut than less soluble forms [2,11]. Small studies have found that magnesium in the aspartate, citrate, lactate, and chloride forms is absorbed more completely and is more bioavailable than magnesium oxide and magnesium sulfate [11-15]. One study found that very high doses of zinc from supplements (142 mg/day) can interfere with magnesium absorption and disrupt the magnesium balance in the body [16]."
Article on folic acid - http://journals.cambridge.org/download.php?file=%2FBJN%2FBJN98_04%2FS0007114507795326a.pdf&code=d790057b3d49142aa467b20ce538f628 (http://journals.cambridge.org/download.php?file=%2FBJN%2FBJN98_04%2FS0007114507795326a.pdf&code=d790057b3d49142aa467b20ce538f628)
"Other studies have reported the appearance of un-metabolised folic acid in serum following the consumption of folic acid supplements or fortified foods. Kelly et al.10 reported the appearance of un-metabolised folic acid in serum of young and elderly people in response to a period of 5 d consumption of folic acid fortified foods, or foods spiked with folic acid."
Article on folic acid and methylfolate and pregnancy - http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3250974/ (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3250974/)
There are certain forms of various vitamins that aren't good. Vitamin A, folic acid, and some forms of magnesium are just a few. But that doesn't mean ALL vitamins have those same properties, and it certainly doesn't mean they should all be grouped together.
Very conceited. I am hardly going to spend 31.5 dollars for most every blasted scientific reference I come up with. If you genuinely want to debunk this piece which, if not in detail, does condemn synthetic vitamins, pay the cash yourself.
You're the one who cited that study to support your view! That's literally like me citing a study titled "Synthetic vitamins are as good as the food equivalent," without having read it because I don't have access to it as valid evidence to support my claim. The sources I've cited have the information there for you to look at.
I find it extremely difficult to believe that you use only supplements with absolutely no fillers in them. Almost all artificial supplements have these trans-fats or whatever in them as it makes it far easier to manufacture them. There are a tiny few producers who do not use such fillers(like Dr Ron Schmid) but even he has to increase the price of his products substantially in order to use such methods.
Literally the only additive in my supplements mentioned by that website is stearic acid. Part of the specific carbohydrate diet is making sure all supplements, foods, liquids etc. are SCD legal. Which means most of the additives they mentioned aren't allowed. Not that there aren't other additives in some of my supplements, but none from those mentioned on that website.
Here is a list of companies making pesticides, medicines and synthetic vitamins : I won’t waste my time to read that whole webpage but you’ll certainly do in view to be able to point out some mistakes or lack of serious references…
I won't bother going through that entire website (found @ http://sites.commercecreators.com/folder2674/index.cfm?fuseaction=browse&id=6013&pageid=1175 (http://sites.commercecreators.com/folder2674/index.cfm?fuseaction=browse&id=6013&pageid=1175) ) and through all the companies they mention. I will however point out they cited absolutely zero references in all their claims. I'll also point out they're selling their own supplement line.
Geigy who became Ciba-Geigy and then Novartis after fusionning with Sandoz was the evil Swiss company that poisoned the whole planet with DDT. It’s well known that Ciba-Geigy, Sandoz and Novartis were / are large producers of pharmaceutics as well as pesticides and… synthetic vitamins! Basel in Switzerland at the border of France and Germany is a town where such chemicals are manufactured. I've been there quite regularly with trucks and I sometimes even transported such shit.
You're welcome to share any information about those companies and their manufacturing of supplements.
Various papers supporting orthomolecular medicine - http://orthomolecular.org/library/articles/index.shtml (http://orthomolecular.org/library/articles/index.shtml)
Here are 23 studies by doctors on iodine therapy - http://www.optimox.com/pics/Iodine/opt_Research_I.shtml (http://www.optimox.com/pics/Iodine/opt_Research_I.shtml)
Tons of articles on orthomolecular medicine and schizophrenia - http://www.orthomolecular.org/search2.shtml?cx=012934609838436511334%3Aplncuzvulcg&cof=FORID%3A11&ie=UTF-8&q=schizophrenia&sa=Search&siteurl=orthomolecular.org%2Fsearch2.shtml&ref=orthomolecular.org%2F&ss=590j124212j4 (http://www.orthomolecular.org/search2.shtml?cx=012934609838436511334%3Aplncuzvulcg&cof=FORID%3A11&ie=UTF-8&q=schizophrenia&sa=Search&siteurl=orthomolecular.org%2Fsearch2.shtml&ref=orthomolecular.org%2F&ss=590j124212j4)
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Well, if you had indeed found a study that stated that synthetic vitamins were always as good as natural vitamins but which had no immediate details to read, that would actually have a little credibility since getting studies published requires peer-review and other controls. Same goes for the study I cited. I just don't like paying for info that ought to be available free.
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I am a skeptic as to the merits of synthetic vitamins. There may be some cases where they have helped certain conditions, but generally speaking it would be a lot wiser for people to invest their time and resources into replenishing through diet first, before they start seeking supplemental. Raw foods first and foremost.
I don't trust most of the studies either way, first of all there is no way of telling if the supplement used in the study will be of the same kind as the one you would buy, nor do we know all the other variables involved. Those people in the vitamin studies could of done Ten Times Better if they were to Adopt a Raw Plaeo Diet instead. Then there are so many seemingly good studies that contradict each other.
I noticed when I was taking b vitamins that they had a drug like effect, raising my energy temporarily, but at the time I had severe candida, and it seems the vitamins fed the yeast overgrowth, so that when I would stop taking them there would be a kind of withdrawal effect, from the die off.
I am warning others with candida issues to be wary of B supplements.
There are exceptions to the rule, I believe that there are some people who have an impaired metabolism, or some other gut ecology issue which prevents the absorption of nutrients. In such rare cases mega doses of vitamin supplement may have a positive effect.
My grandmother had pernicious anemia for years and managed it by taking B 12 and niacin. Of course being an alcoholic that lived on beer and Twinkies didn't leave her much alternative.
For those without clearly diagnosed malabsorption issues, high doses of synthetic vitamins are risky in my opinion.
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After looking into it I'm seeing that some vitamin/mineral preparations are made by pharmaceutical companies. I'm seeing some of the vitamins that are patentable are sold by pharma companies.
For example Merck makes a methyfolate that I use - http://www.metafolin.com/ (http://www.metafolin.com/)
And quatrefolic (another type of methylfolate I use) is made by Gnosis - http://www.quatrefolic.com/ (http://www.quatrefolic.com/)
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Bunch more studies here:
http://highsteaks.com/forum/health-nutrition-and-science/vitamin-and-multivitamin-supplementation-risks-benefits-370.0.html (http://highsteaks.com/forum/health-nutrition-and-science/vitamin-and-multivitamin-supplementation-risks-benefits-370.0.html)
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Thanks, Tyler.
I think there's a strong danger of overdose with synthetic vitamins (amongst other problems). That’s certainly because they are not intertwined with other substances (you mention coenzymes) to form the extremely complex organic structures embedded in a natural food. You can't eat unlimited amounts of a particular food, especially when unprocessed and unmixed, but you can easily ingest uncontrolled amounts of synthetic or pure substances such as vitamins and various supplements.
Even small doses regularly ingested may disturb the alimentary balance.
That said, supplements may be useful to some extend in case of deficiencies of the natural substance.
Yeah, it's also very easy to overdose on vitamins in vegetables especially when juicing. I was drinking big jugs of freshly juiced vegetable juice everyday and got really ill, went to my naturopath and she told me I was drinking too much of it. Destroyed my liver because the excess vitamins turn toxic, which I was already near liver failure from years of alcoholism, then had to repair it with milk thistle. Also the sugar content in some vegetables is very high, not good for blood sugar.
People like to get in the mindset of more is better. I've always had to learn the hard way myself. I also had that same shock when I learned the more is not better for physical activity as well. I guess being a natural addict, I've always overdone things.
I do still take things that are necessary for my digestive health, such as enzymes, apple cider vinegar, probiotics and fiber powder, because without it I get majorly constipated and aweful acid reflux which is caused by not enough stomach acid, and ultimately all of those problems were caused by many years of eating disorders and alchoholism, and it will just take time and patience for that to heal, and probably, it might never but that's the price I pay for damaging my insides, it could be a lot worse. Actually, I'm pretty grateful seeing as I'm very healthy considering.
I think most supplements are unnecessary just because the vitamins lose most of their nutritional value.
A lot of people take protien and fitness supplements which are a waste of money.
But there are some things that could be necessary simply because people are NOT eating properly in this day of age and possibly wouldn't be able to even if they tried.
It's getting harder and harder for people to be able to find healthy food and to be able to get enough nutrients from their food.
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Bunch more studies here:
http://highsteaks.com/forum/health-nutrition-and-science/vitamin-and-multivitamin-supplementation-risks-benefits-370.0.html (http://highsteaks.com/forum/health-nutrition-and-science/vitamin-and-multivitamin-supplementation-risks-benefits-370.0.html)
Your link mentions the studies already mentioned here. That multivitamins don't prevent heart attack patients from dying of heart complications. That elderly people (65+) don't get improved cognitive function from multivitamins.
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How about taking vitamins such as magnesium, vitamin c, and vitamin d?
I have trouble sleeping and magnesium seems to help
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Looks like I'm not the only one that found the recommendation to avoid vitamin supplements is bad science.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/life/health-and-fitness/health/in-defence-of-multivitamins/article16386104/ (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/life/health-and-fitness/health/in-defence-of-multivitamins/article16386104/)
"There were three studies published alongside that editorial: 1) One that followed 6,000 male physicians for 12 years and found a daily multivitamin did not preserve or enhance cognitive function, i.e., it didn’t prevent dementia or make them smarter; 2) A study that followed 2,000 adults for an average of four years after they had a heart attack and found taking a daily supplement didn’t lower the risk of having another heart attack; 3) A systematic review (compiling of previous research) that showed taking a multivitamin did not reduce the risk of developing cancer or heart disease.
Yet the conclusions drawn from this research are pretty sweeping: Never. Take. Vitamins. Ever.
The premise is that people take vitamins in the belief that they will magically prevent cancer, heart disease, Alzheimer’s and every other imaginable condition. Is that true? Or do they take supplements to give themselves a modest sense of well-being, to fill in the gaps in their diet?"
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I don't know about the long-term effects of vitamin D on me, but I definitely take it, because it improves certain symptoms in a very real way on a daily basis.
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Why choose synthetic when whole food vitamins exist anyway? It would seem more like common sense to me that anything 'synthetic' could be of harm to the body. I myself take a form of Vitamin D from Cod Liver Oil in the winter when I'm not outside much soaking up the sun. Most, if not all vitamins and minerals are available through whole food supplements today.
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Why choose synthetic when whole food vitamins exist anyway? It would seem more like common sense to me that anything 'synthetic' could be of harm to the body. I myself take a form of Vitamin D from Cod Liver Oil in the winter when I'm not outside much soaking up the sun. Most, if not all vitamins and minerals are available through whole food supplements today.
To each their own I guess.
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The only reason I don't get my vitamin D from cod liver oil is because I can very easily overdose on vitamin A. I really don't do well if I supplement with extra vitamin A.
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The only reason I don't get my vitamin D from cod liver oil is because I can very easily overdose on vitamin A. I really don't do well if I supplement with extra vitamin A.
CK what is the exact name/brand of your vitamin D supplement?
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The only reason I don't get my vitamin D from cod liver oil is because I can very easily overdose on vitamin A. I really don't do well if I supplement with extra vitamin A.
You might want to look into this supplement as the A to D ratio is almost equal.
600 IU of A and 400 IU of D per capsule.
I take three of these each day during the winter on top of the A I get from meat and do very well.
http://www.swansonvitamins.com/country-life-natural-vitamin-d3-400-iu-100-sgels (http://www.swansonvitamins.com/country-life-natural-vitamin-d3-400-iu-100-sgels)
How do you know/feel when you are overdosing on A?
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CK what is the exact name/brand of your vitamin D supplement?
The Now brand. I use the softgels, but I've found the chewable tablets also work.