Paleo Diet: Raw Paleo Diet and Lifestyle Forum
Other Raw-Animal-Food Diets (eg:- Primal Diet/Raw Version of Weston-Price Diet etc.) => Raw Weston Price => Topic started by: Satya on February 26, 2009, 11:06:34 pm
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I have always been amazed at the emphasis on dairy by the Weston A. Price Foundation. This emphasis has many people convinced that most of the tribes Price studied consumed dairy. This is simply not the case from his book Nutrition & Physical Degeneration (a sticky with link to the online version can be found on this particular board). As such, I really don't feel that the foundation has adequately portrayed his work. And really, so many people - more than half the world's population - have real problems with dairy. Dairy is not a good food for most of us.
Using the word find from my browser, I would like to offer the following evidence (or lack thereof) from this book.
Let's see, for milk/dairy consumers we have:
Swiss - they ate the only gluten grain too, in the form of rye. None of the tribes ate wheat
Masai - blood, milk and meat diet
For those who thrived without it we have (along with selected quotes from the book):
Gaelic - "Their isolation was so great that a young woman of about twenty years of age who came to the Isle of Harris from Taransay Island had never seen milk in any larger quantity than drops. There are no dairy animals on that island. Their nutrition is provided by their oat products and fish, and by a very limited amount of vegetable foods. Lobsters and flat fish are a very important part of their foods. Fruits are practically unknown. Yet the physiques of these people are remarkably fine."
Eskimos - "Notwithstanding the very inhospitable part of the world in which they reside, with nine or ten months of winter and only two or three of summer, and in spite of the absence for long periods of plant foods and dairy products and eggs, the Eskimos were able to provide their bodies with all the mineral and vitamin requirements from sea foods, stored greens and berries and plants from the sea." (Many explorers have noted the dairy free state of isolated Inuit.)
Plains Indians - "The rigorous winters reach seventy degrees below zero. This precludes the possibility of maintaining dairy animals or growing seed cereals or fruits. "
Melanesian - No words about dairy or milk at all in this chapter
Polynesian - No words about dairy or milk at all in this chapter
Australians - No words about dairy or milk at all in this chapter except about the poor Aborigines who had inadequate breast milk from residing in the government camp with crappy foods. Price fed the babies condensed milk and they recovered somewhat. Sad story.
Torres Strait islanders - No words about dairy or milk at all in this chapter
Maori - The only thing Price says about dairy in this chapter is, "The most important industries of New Zealand are dairy products, and sheep raising for wool." That's it. These people ate fish, and seafood was the main commonality between his natives, not dairy.
Peruvians - "The physical perfection and development of the present and past Andean population has been accomplished in spite of the difficulty of building and maintaining good bodily structure at the high altitude where dairy products have not been and are not at present a large part of the nutritional program. "
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Yes, that's a good point. I realise the main reason why the WAPF etc. promote raw dairy is because raw dairy is considered a more tasty dish than any other raw animal foods, so they don't want to overly promote raw meats as that would lessen their appeal re the public.
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USA is a very dairy driven country, which it gets from England. I think that's why he emphasized it so much; also because at that time people were just starting to replace butter with margarine and he wanted to make a case that margarine doesn't have the nutrients that butter does, which is true. He didn't even realize all the ways in which margarine and plant oils in general are worse than animal fats like butter, but he knew enough to make it a large point in his book. Also he pushes the idea of high vitamin butter oil as an easy way to make up for nutrients not present in the modern diet.
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Interestingly, I think the tide may be turning against dairy within the WAPF. I was watching a WAPF conference dvd (pretty sure it is last year's west coast conference) about preparing stocks and slow cooked meals. Jessica Prentice (http://www.wisefoodways.com/about.php) mentioned a few times that she does not use butter, whey or other dairy products at her kitchen because so many people have problems with dairy.
@ Kyle. Well, Dr. Price did mention the importance of spring butter and spring butter oil, but these were very seasonal foods - available only in spring! I'd love to search grains the same way and see how many tribes consumed them. I am pretty darn sure that the Swiss were the only ones to eat a gluten grain, in the form of rye bread. The Scots ate oats and the Andes tribes ate quinoa. The one thing Price found common to most if not all (?) was the great lengths people went to to obtain seafoods. Even inland tribes would travel to the sea once or twice a year and dry seafood for long term storage.
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USA is a very dairy driven country, which it gets from England. ...
http://gnowfglins.com/2010/01/11/rfqm-devil-in-the-milk/ (http://gnowfglins.com/2010/01/11/rfqm-devil-in-the-milk/)
Attached to position 67, and part of the large chain of 229, is a side chain of seven amino acids called BCM 7, which is a powerful opiate.
“The side chain that comes off amino acid 67 is called BCM 7. .. a small protein [which] is a very powerful opiate and which has some undesirable effects on animals and humans.”
The amino acid at position 67 is different depending on if the cow is A1 or A2. The old-fashioned A2 cows carry the original amino acid, proline, which bonds strongly to BCM 7.
“… proline has a strong bond to BCM 7 which helps keep it from getting into the milk, so that essentially no BCM 7 is found in the urine, blood or GI tract of old-fashioned A2 cows.”
If an A1 cow, the histidine (the mutated protein) doesn’t hold so tightly to BCM 7.
“… histidine, the mutated protein, only weakly holds on to BCM 7, so it is liberated in the GI tract of animals and humans who drink A1 cow milk.”
Keith Woodford links the liberated BCM 7 to many serious health issues. Again, quoting Dr. Cowan:
“… the opiate BCM 7 can cause neurological impairment in animals and people exposed to it, especially autistic and schizophrenic changes. BCM 7 interferes with the immune response, and injecting BCM 7 into animal models has been shown to provoke Type 1 diabetes. Dr. Woodford presents research showing a direct correlation between a population’s exposure to A1 cow’s milk and the incidence of auto-immune disease, heart disease (BCM 7 has a pro-inflammatory effect on the blood vessels), type-1 diabetes, autism, and schizophrenia.”
In America, most of our dairy cows are A1 cows – the modern Holstein. Keith Woodford found that:
“When you take A1 cow milk away, and stimulate our own endorphin production instead of via the toxic opiate BCM 7, some amazing health benefits ensue.”
Maybe that's integrally related to why England took the part they did in the Chinese Opium Wars.
THE CHINESE OPIUM WARS:
The Queen of England Pushes Dope
Although the Chinese had used opium as a medicine, there was no widespread addiction before the British arrived. The Portuguese had smuggled some opium to China. The first major shipment of opium, was arranged in 1781, by the Company's Governor-General, Warren Hastings, who described opium as a ``pernicious'' commodity, ``which the wisdom of the Government should carefully restrain from internal consumption.'' It was a financial disaster. The opium was brought to Canton, the only city where the Chinese allowed foreigners to trade. The Chinese showed little interest, so the ship left without selling its opium. The Company lost a quarter-of-a-million dollars.
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<<Dairy is not a good food for most of us.>>
You're making sensational statements without proper research. First it's a real stretch to conclude how Price did or did not represent dairy, including the foundation. You'll have to dig much deeper to find some sort of conspiracy regarding raw dairy,etc.
The issue with dairy is pasteurized, plain and simple. Proclaiming that all peoples have issues with dairy is again without merit since all of WAPF regards raw consumption only which if you did the research you'd soon discover that those who had problems on pasteurized dairy can and do easily consume raw dairy with no problems.
Regardless of the history, usage, and pseudo-experts claims (most of the paleo community) raw dairy is very good for you. If you research you'll find that raw dairy contains many factors that are very hard to find in todays environments in an easy assimilable way. To state that Eskimos don't consume it is the samething as saying that none of us eat polar bear or seal either. And how many cultures had available cod liver oil? Price, is no different than today's health community that prescribes many supplements for this or that (except his advice/supplements work). CLO and butter oil(dairy) were both used by Price to great effect. I think his research is far more benign than you're willing to give credit for.
Do the research and then lecture us on the problems with raw dairy, if you can find them. And just why should I trust all the pseudo-experts crawling out of the woodwork to sell books on the paleo or prehistoric diet when in fact most of it is just made up and sensationalized.
If you can find a good source of grass-fed raw dairy, then great if you can't doesn't mean it's bad for you.
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<<Dairy is not a good food for most of us.>>
You're making sensational statements without proper research. First it's a real stretch to conclude how Price did or did not represent dairy, including the foundation. You'll have to dig much deeper to find some sort of conspiracy regarding raw dairy,etc.
The issue with dairy is pasteurized, plain and simple. Proclaiming that all peoples have issues with dairy is again without merit since all of WAPF regards raw consumption only which if you did the research you'd soon discover that those who had problems on pasteurized dairy can and do easily consume raw dairy with no problems.
Regardless of the history, usage, and pseudo-experts claims (most of the paleo community) raw dairy is very good for you. If you research you'll find that raw dairy contains many factors that are very hard to find in todays environments in an easy assimilable way. To state that Eskimos don't consume it is the samething as saying that none of us eat polar bear or seal either. And how many cultures had available cod liver oil? Price, is no different than today's health community that prescribes many supplements for this or that (except his advice/supplements work). CLO and butter oil(dairy) were both used by Price to great effect. I think his research is far more benign than you're willing to give credit for.
Do the research and then lecture us on the problems with raw dairy, if you can find them. And just why should I trust all the pseudo-experts crawling out of the woodwork to sell books on the paleo or prehistoric diet when in fact most of it is just made up and sensationalized.
If you can find a good source of grass-fed raw dairy, then great if you can't doesn't mean it's bad for you.
I myself have had so-so experiences with raw dairy. I still eat it, but I might stop, depending on my blood test results over the next few months/years. However--
You may want to read some of TylerDurden's posts about his bad experiences with raw dairy. Let me clue you in--he's about to rip you a new one, and not gently. It's going to hurt. Welcome to the rawpaleo forum. We're not always gentle, but...we know our stuff.
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Under normal circumstances, I would indeed start ripping the previous posts advocating raw dairy, especially given the fact that it is THE no1 health-issue among the vast majority of RVAFers re certain truly horrific health-problems re hormone-disruption, magnesium-deficiency etc. etc.. However, this is the primal diet forum of the rawpaleoforum board, so I'm prepared to be gentle for now. Outside that forum, I will be 100% thunderous in my denunciation of AV's and Weston-Price's notoriously dodgy pro-raw dairy theories. I view these 2 gurus as satanic figures.
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Under normal circumstances, I would indeed start ripping the previous posts advocating raw dairy, especially given the fact that it is THE no1 health-issue among the vast majority of RVAFers re certain truly horrific health-problems re hormone-disruption, magnesium-deficiency etc. etc.. However, this is the primal diet forum of the rawpaleoforum board, so I'm prepared to be gentle for now. Outside that forum, I will be 100% thunderous in my denunciation of AV's and Weston-Price's notoriously dodgy pro-raw dairy theories. I view these 2 gurus as satanic figures.
I have to agree that raw dairy does seem to have caused some tooth problems for me...nothing like what's happened to you from eating it, but it's not that great for my teeth, relative to scallops/clams, or probably even grass-fed meat, or any other animal product, probably.
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I have to agree that raw dairy does seem to have caused some tooth problems for me...nothing like what's happened to you from eating it, but it's not that great for my teeth, relative to scallops/clams, or probably even grass-fed meat, or any other animal product, probably.
This is the sort of thing I generally hear from long-term RVAFers. At first, a number of them protest that they do OK or fine on small amounts of raw dairy, but eventually, they invariably admit, in the long-term, that raw dairy does some harm along the way.
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First, I'm off dairy, even though I have over 15 goats now for many years. Half the truth of dairy is that without the right gut flora you won't digest the lactose. But those bacteria can be built up by eating small amounts and supplementing with probiotics. I even did implants with extremely high counts of many different forms of probiotics. Could say more if anyone is interested. The next half, is is your milk coming from either cow or preferably goats eating GREEN grass and weeds, bushes, etc. And not just grass that may be brown, cut, processed. Most dairy consuming cultures almost always culture their milk in some way or another, hence, cheese, yogurt, kefir etc..... It is VERY hard to meet all these requirements, yet when milk was used as in Switzerland all the requirements were met routinely. For example, when winter came and green grass and summer had passed, the mountain people dried up their animals till they gave birth in spring when the grasses were green again. They relied on their cultured cheeses and butter over the winter. It's only in 'our' attempts to shortcut the process that we've messed with natures formula that has historically built some pretty strong individuals with the milk collected from animals.
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This is the sort of thing I generally hear from long-term RVAFers. At first, a number of them protest that they do OK or fine on small amounts of raw dairy, but eventually, they invariably admit, in the long-term, that raw dairy does some harm along the way.
What about long term use of raw kefir?
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What about long term use of raw kefir?
Even in that case, I've heard of people complaining of side-effects over the years.
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I love raw kefir. I eat it maybe 3-4 days a week. I'm sure it's not for everyone, though.
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First, I'm off dairy, even though I have over 15 goats now for many years. Half the truth of dairy is that without the right gut flora you won't digest the lactose. But those bacteria can be built up by eating small amounts and supplementing with probiotics. I even did implants with extremely high counts of many different forms of probiotics. Could say more if anyone is interested. The next half, is is your milk coming from either cow or preferably goats eating GREEN grass and weeds, bushes, etc. And not just grass that may be brown, cut, processed. Most dairy consuming cultures almost always culture their milk in some way or another, hence, cheese, yogurt, kefir etc..... It is VERY hard to meet all these requirements, yet when milk was used as in Switzerland all the requirements were met routinely. For example, when winter came and green grass and summer had passed, the mountain people dried up their animals till they gave birth in spring when the grasses were green again. They relied on their cultured cheeses and butter over the winter. It's only in 'our' attempts to shortcut the process that we've messed with natures formula that has historically built some pretty strong individuals with the milk collected from animals.
I have to tell you that as a Physician, I have tried raw grass fed milk with hundreds of lactose intolerant patients and up to this point every single on eof them had no complaints with raw dairy. Lactase does occur naturally in raw milk. I have even had people with so called milk allergies do fine with raw dairy. That is my experience, I have heard different stories from others.
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I have to tell you that as a Physician, I have tried raw grass fed milk with hundreds of lactose intolerant patients and up to this point every single on eof them had no complaints with raw dairy. Lactase does occur naturally in raw milk. I have even had people with so called milk allergies do fine with raw dairy. That is my experience, I have heard different stories from others.
I have come across plenty of people who've had lactose-intolerance towards raw dairy. Some couldn't even handle the minimal lactose in raw butter. But there's also the issue of casein-intolerance, problems with the hormones in raw dairy, and the awkward calcium/magnesium ratio(which has led to magnesium-deficiency in some of those who claimed to be fine on raw dairy)
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This is the sort of thing I generally hear from long-term RVAFers. At first, a number of them protest that they do OK or fine on small amounts of raw dairy, but eventually, they invariably admit, in the long-term, that raw dairy does some harm along the way.
I find this pretty hard to believe since I know atleast a couple of RAF bodybuilders who drink a lot of it, has done so for years and who are doing very well on it. Or rather, not so much milk as raw cream and butter. I would not want to cut mine entirely since my evergy levels and strength are higher when I have it in my diet. My only problem that I have with it, is that I am not that keen on the taste of milk. Vince Gironda, Frank zane, Armand Tanny et all. These early BB guru's was with few exceptions (like LaLanne, Bill pearl) all raw carnivores and all heavy milk drinkers. All of them got to see old age (zane still is) and they all kept doing the iron game untill the end in good health.
It is a curious thing. Dairy.
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I find this pretty hard to believe since I know atleast a couple of RAF bodybuilders who drink a lot of it, has done so for years and who are doing very well on it. Or rather, not so much milk as raw cream and butter. I would not want to cut mine entirely since my evergy levels and strength are higher when I have it in my diet. My only problem that I have with it, is that I am not that keen on the taste of milk. Vince Gironda, Frank zane, Armand Tanny et all. These early BB guru's was with few exceptions (like LaLanne, Bill pearl) all raw carnivores and all heavy milk drinkers. All of them got to see old age (zane still is) and they all kept doing the iron game untill the end in good health.
It is a curious thing. Dairy.
I didn't suggest all those with raw dairy were like that just many of them. As for raw carnivores mention, I have my doubts as few bodybuilders, even the raw-eating ones, were that rawpalaeo, with many such as Lalanne actually being cited as being vegetarian mainly etc.(eg:-
"Jack LaLanne begins each and every day with 50 grams of soy protein. The Jack LaLanne diet is not completely vegetarian, but he doesn't eat chicken, red meat or white sugar. He gets most of his protein from egg whites, soy protein and occasionally fish.
The Jack LaLanne diet is not a low-carb diet, but he does stick strictly to natural grains such as brown rice and whole wheat.
LaLanne also eats at least ten fresh, raw vegetables a day. He hasn't had dessert since 1929 and never eats between meals or after 9 p.m."
taken from:- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_LaLanne
I don't doubt that a few people are genetically adapted to raw dairy and might well live till old age(but probably with brittle bones like many dairy-drinkers) -plus, building up enough muscle prevents falls which are the prime reason why older people suffer accicidents and live less long as they make the mistake of not building up their muscles.. There are plenty of SAD-eaters who live till old age, anyway, so diet isn't a factor re lifespan as such.
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Thanks for clearing that up TD. As for bodybuilders. Bill Pearl and Lalanne was both vegetarians, but both seems to forget that while they where building muscle, both of them ate red meat and LaLanne even drank blood. Check out Armand Tanny for an iconic all raw BB'er.
edit: for further reading: http://www.hulsestrength.com/history-bodybuilding-nutrition/.html
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I don't doubt that a few people are genetically adapted to raw dairy and might well live till old age(but probably with brittle bones like many dairy-drinkers)..
How did you came to this conclusion?
Do you have an estimate on how many people you've seen (on internet or in person) reporting brittle bones while drinking raw milk?
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How did you came to this conclusion?
Do you have an estimate on how many people you've seen (on internet or in person) reporting brittle bones while drinking raw milk?
Seriously, I see you with this dairy propaganda all the time tyler. I understand it didn't work for you and may have caused health declines but guess what it actually does work for some people. The propaganda you spew is akin to the vegans, come on dude.
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Seriously, I see you with this dairy propaganda all the time tyler. I understand it didn't work for you and may have caused health declines but guess what it actually does work for some people. The propaganda you spew is akin to the vegans, come on dude.
Thanks for that Cliff,
Tyler,
What is point in ragging on dairy constantly? There is no doubt that modern milk production and cattle breeding has had a deleterious effect on the currently available dairy as well as the fact that dairy as one poster said nowadays is available 12 months of the year which is not anything approaching normal, however the same can be said about meat production.
Ancient societies probably didn't have a lot of milk in their diet although no one here can say anything for sure.
I realize that living in a large urban area where I understand you do you, may not be familiar, but farm animals are not grown in anyway that can be even remotely compared with the animals that a paleo society presumably lived on regardless of what you have been told by your food sources. They are all overfed in a metered way according to their farmers "methods" on a limited diet based on being stuck in a small space and kept in warm cozy barns out of the weather all winter and away from any predators or natural culling. Even if your meat is grassfed and chemical free, it ain't natural by any stretch.
I hear you and others talking about getting oils and supplements and foods mailed to you, stuff trucked great distance. Dah... that's certainly the way paleo man lived. Sounds to me there is a certain amount of indoctination into a religion going on here.
Milk happens to be available, tasty to a lot of people and nutritious (despite your incredibly exaggerated claims).
There are some people who have a hard time tolerating meat and eggs and just about every imaginable fruit, vegetable, grain etc. That doesn't mean that everybody should give up meat, eggs, milk and every imaginable fruit, vegetable, grain etc.
Personally I can tolerate small amounts of meat and I am not going to force feed myself because TD is convinced we all should eat like him.
Nowadays with globalization, food breeding and travel we all eat diets that would make our ancestors gag. The foods our ancestors ate in most cases no longer exist. They have been bred out of existence.
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How did you came to this conclusion?
Do you have an estimate on how many people you've seen (on internet or in person) reporting brittle bones while drinking raw milk?
Not specifically re raw milk but there are studies linking dairy-consumption to osteoporosis. As regards raw milk, it's complicated as people experience a very wide variety of symptoms, with some just having hormonal problems with raw dairy, some just suffering from severely weakened teeth(indicating that bones are affected too), others getting magnesium deficiency etc. etc.
My reason for citing the brittle bones issue re raw dairy is that it was openly admitted by some long-term Primal Dieters on the Primal Diet yahoo group that they deliberately ate magnesium-rich pumpkin seeds in order to avoid bone-related issues due to magnesium-deficiency. These were people who did fine with raw dairy as regards having no allergies. Plus, a sizeable proportion of those who do badly on raw dairy have issues re teeth etc. Can't be sure re exact estimates as no real count has been made of RVAFers in general etc. Once one includes both those who do badly on raw dairy plus all those who lie to themselves and pretend that issues with raw dairy are solely due to "detox", the figures become even higher.
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Seriously, I see you with this dairy propaganda all the time tyler. I understand it didn't work for you and may have caused health declines but guess what it actually does work for some people. The propaganda you spew is akin to the vegans, come on dude.
Not mere propaganda, it is a simple fact that raw dairy is THE food most commonly reported by RVAFers as causing minor to life-threatening health-problems.
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Raw-al, your points are seriously flawed. Your comment re raw milk being more healthy in the Palaeolithic is irrelevant as people in the Palaeolithic era never drank raw milk to any extent, given no domestication at the time. Besides, blaming all issues on modern intensive-farming methods is absurd when most of those who buy raw dairy get it from farms which avoid intensive farming such as organic farms, grassfed meat farms etc.
Citing examples re meat-intolerance is also irrelevant as raw-dairy-issues are far more reported than issues with raw carbs or raw meats or raw veggie-juice or whatever. Issues with raw meats are incredibly rare, while issues with raw dairy are all too common. Which is why it is essential to make this clear so that people can avoid months or years of hell re experimentation before they finally realise that raw dairy is a disaster for their health.
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Not specifically re raw milk but there are studies linking dairy-consumption to osteoporosis. As regards raw milk, it's complicated as people experience a very wide variety of symptoms, with some just having hormonal problems with raw dairy, some just suffering from severely weakened teeth(indicating that bones are affected too), others getting magnesium deficiency etc. etc.
My reason for citing the brittle bones issue re raw dairy is that it was openly admitted by some long-term Primal Dieters on the Primal Diet yahoo group that they deliberately ate magnesium-rich pumpkin seeds in order to avoid bone-related issues due to magnesium-deficiency. These were people who did fine with raw dairy as regards having no allergies. Plus, a sizeable proportion of those who do badly on raw dairy have issues re teeth etc. Can't be sure re exact estimates as no real count has been made of RVAFers in general etc. Once one includes both those who do badly on raw dairy plus all those who lie to themselves and pretend that issues with raw dairy are solely due to "detox", the figures become even higher.
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What studies? Were they raw milk consumers?
Sounds like you are talking about people who are 100% raw milk in other words nothing else in the diet.
Mt teeth are fine since I started on raw milk and indeed I think you will find that a large portion of people eating any diet have dental problems, otherwise dentists would be outta luck.
Not sure what you mean by detox but that word is used quite frequently to disguise everything from a hangover to some of the absurd dietary notions that people try.
Not mere propaganda, it is a simple fact that raw dairy is THE food most commonly reported by RVAFers as causing minor to life-threatening health-problems.
If I told ya once I told ya a million times... quit exaggerating.
Tyler you give the same statements dressed up in slightly different words on all your milk rags.
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What studies? Were they raw milk consumers?
No, the studies referred to pasteurised dairy-consumers. However, that is irrelevant, as the reason for the issues cited is primarily blamed on the excessive calcium content present in dairy - since calcium is present in raw dairy too, it is also an issue(arguably, since the calcium in raw dairy would be more absorbable by the body, raw dairy should cause slightly worse problems re osteoporosis in this regard).
Sounds like you are talking about people who are 100% raw milk in other words nothing else in the diet.
Rubbish, these people consume plenty of raw meats too.
Not sure what you mean by detox but that word is used quite frequently to disguise everything from a hangover to some of the absurd dietary notions that people try.
In this case, when people refer to always getting negative symptoms whenever they consume a particular food(raw dairy in this case) and don't get those same levels of symptoms at other times, it's pretty clear they are deluded and are experiencing allergies/food-intolerance towards raw dairy.
If I told ya once I told ya a million times... quit exaggerating.
Tyler you give the same statements dressed up in slightly different words on all your milk rags.
I am simply stating a fact, it is not remotely an exaggeration. Check up all the various complaints re raw diets on the various RVAF diet groups over the years, and you will find, again and again, as I did, that THE most commonly reported problems on a RVAF diet are health-issues incurred from raw-dairy-consumption.
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No, the studies referred to pasteurised dairy-consumers. However, that is irrelevant, as the reason for the issues cited is primarily blamed on the excessive calcium content present in dairy - since calcium is present in raw dairy too, it is also an issue(arguably, since the calcium in raw dairy would be more absorbable by the body, raw dairy should cause slightly worse problems re osteoporosis in this regard).
Rubbish, these people consume plenty of raw meats too.
In this case, when people refer to always getting negative symptoms whenever they consume a particular food(raw dairy in this case) and don't get those same levels of symptoms at other times, it's pretty clear they are deluded and are experiencing allergies/food-intolerance towards raw dairy.
I am simply stating a fact, it is not remotely an exaggeration. Check up all the various complaints re raw diets on the various RVAF diet groups over the years, and you will find, again and again, as I did, that THE most commonly reported problems on a RVAF diet are health-issues incurred from raw-dairy-consumption.
Tyler,
Para 1. Still no proof of the statement of how raw milk has caused bone brittleness. A pattern has developed. Big statement, no proof, then jump to the next subject. This has the earmarks of Pure Vata prattling.
http://harmonyhealth.wordpress.com/2008/02/29/floride-does-not-reduce-cavities-and-does-causes-brittle-bones-and-a-soft-brain/
http://www.actionpa.org/fluoride/torontostar.html
http://www.health-science.com/fluoride_toxicity.html
http://info-wars.org/2010/08/09/eu-study-on-water-fluoridation-lacking-important-detail/
I suspect these may be a more accurate assessment of why bones become brittle particularly in the elderly, than the wild, unsubstantiated milk theory.
Para2. Somehow these as of yet unknown, possibly non-existent persons who had all the huge issues with magnesium deficiencies were not consuming large quantities of milk, but now the claim is that they were eating "plenty of raw meats too". So now I take that to mean that raw meat is also deficient in magnesium since they were eating plenty of it and had this huge deficiency that forced them to eat "magnesium-rich pumpkin seeds in order to avoid bone-related issues due to magnesium-deficiency." (as stated).
"with some just having hormonal problems with raw dairy, some just suffering from severely weakened teeth(indicating that bones are affected too), others getting magnesium deficiency etc. etc."
Another off the wall statement: "hormonal problems". This is also scientifically studied and there is an assumption that there will be some provision of proof for the readers.
"I am simply stating a fact, it is not remotely an exaggeration".
Nothing resembling a fact has been provided. I have read the arguments supplied on a number of topics that demonstrate precious little knowledge or proof of and the milk tirade is yet another... Yawn.
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The so-called studies also implicate meat most the time as they blame the problem on excess protien.
According to one study the reason is because the calcium in dairy is only 30% absorb-able.
Either way these studies are done on SAD food eaters and they are just correlations. Correlations don't equal causation's.
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The so-called studies also implicate meat most the time as they blame the problem on excess protien.
According to one study the reason is because the calcium in dairy is only 30% absorb-able.
Either way these studies are done on SAD food eaters and they are just correlations. Correlations don't equal causation's.
Interesting Cliff, this follows along with the Ayurvedic model which clearly says that just because you eat something doesn't mean that it is automatically digested and assimilated and that it goes to the appropriate place.
The multitude of Ayurvedci food-combining rules associated with milk preclude combining meat, vegetable and fruit consumption with it. This isn't something that some old guys 2000 years ago dreamed up, it's just a physical reality.
It is also well known that drinking milk straight out of the fridge like countless TV billboard ads show is a recipe for severe reactions. These reactions can lead to allergenic reactions particularly if the person has a poor immune system in the first place. Milk is meant to be eaten much the way Aajonus says, warm.
This does not mean that everyone should drink milk. Just that some (I suspect the vast majority) of the people who have issues with it are having issues associated with how they drink it.
Remember that milk comes from the teat of a cow. The calf has to suck to get it. This sucking draws saliva out of the glands in the top of the mouth and mixes the saliva with the milk to predigest the sugars and it is not likely that the calf would be having other foods at the same time. The milk is body temperature, not refrigerator temperature.
Making it into kefir changes the fundamental attributes of milk into something entirely different. The one thing that is missing here for I suspect more people is that kefir and yogurt and other fermented milk products can be difficult to digest also and consuming these in the evening after 6 PM will cause digestive difficulties and even bad dreams, because it is hard to digest. I notice that people make a ton of the stuff or they buy it from the health food store where it is God only knows how old, probably pasteurized and they stuff it in the fridge. It solidifies in there and the molecules bind together like glue and indeed I believe certain paints are made from milk.
So when they go to eat the stuff it is cold and so dense that it will not digest. It's as useless as eating ice cream.
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I think it is either milk works for you or not.
I did my honest to goodness experiments with raw milk, tried really hard, warm milk, milk with liver, milk with raw eggs, whatever milk I get in the Philippines it just does not work for me.
Now there are people where they find a raw milk that works for them. I say congratulations. This is why we have Primal Diet and Weston price forum sections here.
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Tyler,
Para 1. Still no proof of the statement of how raw milk has caused bone brittleness. A pattern has developed. Big statement, no proof, then jump to the next subject. ....
Well observed, Al. While I think that the burden of proof lies with those who would add complexity to our biological heritage by recommending that others add dairy as a staple food source to a Paleo-type diet, I have also noticed certain related tendencies in Tyler's tactics re: anti-dairy fanaticism and other of cherished beliefs:
> When extreme claims are revealed to be poorly-supported and unscientific opinions and one doesn't have a good response, just change the subject.
> Conflate similar but different phenomena to confuse and mislead. For example, use results of studies on pasteurized dairy as allegedly irrefutable evidence against raw dairy and just dismiss skepticism re: this.
> When you can't refute the other person's points, create straw men and set about refuting them instead.
If you press him he will eventually provide some scientific sources, however, which can be a useful result of an often tedious process. Ironically, the sources he provides often support his opponent's views rather than his. I and others have guessed that he often may not read more than the abstracts of the studies he cites or the title and first few paragraphs of the articles he links to.
I like to test my speculations and hypotheses by trying to refute them myself, so it's useful to have people who already know some of the common counterarguments and can provide some sources for me to access, and once in a while I even agree with Tyler, such as on the likely sub-optimal nature of dairy foods as compared to raw animal body fats like suet, marrow, brains and subcutaneous fat from wild or pastured animals (though his view is much more extreme than mine).
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Well said Phil, my observations are in line with yours.
Sometimes I look at what will I gain from arguing.... Less than nothing. The trouble of course is that I know that people read this stuff and take some of the claims seriously.
There seems to be copious quantities of nonsense spouted off in this forum and the trouble is that people probably including myself make wild and crazy statements about things that they really ought not to.
I cringe at some of the questions here. There seems to be a notion that everybody's body is the same. It is not even remotely true. One man's meat truly is another's poison. An Ayurvedic physician that I know told me of one girl he treated that needed (the healing effect of) ghee so badly for a chronic issue she had that she could down a cup or more of ghee at one sitting. I love ghee and butter dearly, but I'd be making long distance calls on the big porcelain telephone if I had that much. ;) ;D
Milk is like every other food, it is good for some not for others. Same thing with everything. My friend thrives on hot chilies. I'd end up in the "Emergency ward" if I ate what he eats at a meal.
To me this is supposed to be a forum like the old Roman public meeting place where discussion is backed up with facts as you said.
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Tyler,
Para 1. Still no proof of the statement of how raw milk has caused bone brittleness. A pattern has developed. Big statement, no proof, then jump to the next subject. This has the earmarks of Pure Vata prattling.
http://harmonyhealth.wordpress.com/2008/02/29/floride-does-not-reduce-cavities-and-does-causes-brittle-bones-and-a-soft-brain/
http://www.actionpa.org/fluoride/torontostar.html
http://www.health-science.com/fluoride_toxicity.html
http://info-wars.org/2010/08/09/eu-study-on-water-fluoridation-lacking-important-detail/
I suspect these may be a more accurate assessment of why bones become brittle particularly in the elderly, than the wild, unsubstantiated milk theory.
Nonsense, since only some of the areas in the developed world have fluoridated tapwater. As for studies on raw milk, they are few and far between since hardly anyone consumes raw milk nowadays - but absence of evidence is not evidence of absence , of course, and studies re pasteurised milk are useful provided they focus on characteristics in pasteurised milk which are also present in raw milk. 1 or 2 of those studies focus on the benefits of raw milk as opposed to pasteurised milk(in terms of lower rates ofew raw milk studies focus on the benefits of asthma) and the like). Most such studies however focus on the negative aspects of raw milk, such as the increased rate of infections/epidemics caused by raw milk. Apparently, raw milk is an easy carrier for viruses etc.
Para2. Somehow these as of yet unknown, possibly non-existent persons who had all the huge issues with magnesium deficiencies were not consuming large quantities of milk, but now the claim is that they were eating "plenty of raw meats too". So now I take that to mean that raw meat is also deficient in magnesium since they were eating plenty of it and had this huge deficiency that forced them to eat "magnesium-rich pumpkin seeds in order to avoid bone-related issues due to magnesium-deficiency." (as stated).
This is such an obviously deliberate misrepresentation of what I said, that this is absolutely laughable as an attempt. I did NOT suggest that the magnesium-deficiencies had anything whatsoever to do with raw meats, but solely to do with relatively sizeable amounts of raw dairy, as a number of people who reported such magnesium-deficiencies had Primal Diets involving lots of raw meats as well as lots of raw dairy. It was only you who made the ridiculous, decidedly false assumption that magnesium-deficiency could only be caused by a 100% raw milk diet.
"with some just having hormonal problems with raw dairy, some just suffering from severely weakened teeth(indicating that bones are affected too), others getting magnesium deficiency etc. etc."
Another off the wall statement: "hormonal problems". This is also scientifically studied and there is an assumption that there will be some provision of proof for the readers.
Not off the wall, at all. It is a matter of record that the hormones in milk have been directly implicated in causing various cancers:-
http://www.news.harvard.edu/gazette/2006/12.07/11-dairy.html
"I am simply stating a fact, it is not remotely an exaggeration".
Nothing resembling a fact has been provided. I have read the arguments supplied on a number of topics that demonstrate precious little knowledge or proof of and the milk tirade is yet another... Yawn.
Well, I will excuse your ignorance since, given the above statement, you simply cannot have read anywhere near as many online reports of RVAFers as I have, or you would have been aware of the countless examples of problems with raw dairy routinely reported on the various forums. Simply put, again and again, problems with raw dairy are the biggest problems reported on RVAF diet forums. You tried to equivocate by citing problems with raw meats as an example, but the fact is that problems with raw meats are far lower in incidence than problems with raw dairy.
One only has to look at the zero-carbers - most of them report issues with raw dairy, and that's just 1 faction here.
More to the point, it's a bit absurd to denounce here those who criticise raw dairy, as 1 of the primary reasons why people join rawpaleoforum in the first place is because they couldn't tolerate raw dairy in some way. Of course, to eventually come to realise this fact, you would have to read every post on this forum since its inception(which is what I have done so far).
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It is also well known that drinking milk straight out of the fridge like countless TV billboard ads show is a recipe for severe reactions. These reactions can lead to allergenic reactions particularly if the person has a poor immune system in the first place. Milk is meant to be eaten much the way Aajonus says, warm.
This does not mean that everyone should drink milk. Just that some (I suspect the vast majority) of the people who have issues with it are having issues associated with how they drink it.
The above is just a foolish urban myth claimed by Aajonus. I and many others have tried such ridiculous notions along with putting raw honey in the raw milk and similiar balderdash, and they never worked once. When one examines the notion closely, it's easy to see why it is an absurd idea. First of all, there are plenty of major reasons why people are allergic to raw dairy such as lactose-intolerance/casein-intolerance, issues with the excessive hormones in raw dairy etc.These issues have nothing whatsoever to do with the temperature of the raw milk. Also, once the cold raw milk entered the lower stomach, after a set time in the upper stomach, it would be as warm as the rest of the body, so temperature could not be an issue re digestion.
Well, this is the Primal Diet forum so , I suppose it's to be expected that pro-raw-dairy fanaticism would be present here.
Oh, and incidentally, Ayurveda is so ridiculously non-rawpalaeo, it's absurd. "Hot and cold" foods - honestly. It's as bad as Chinese Medicine re poor credibility.
As for PP's spurious claims, they are motivated by numerous previous discussions where I, very scientifically, debunked his notions re Noble Savagery , the supposedly "healthy" French, Kurt Harris etc. etc. etc. Just sour grapes on his part. l)
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Oh, and incidentally, Ayurveda is so ridiculously non-rawpalaeo, it's absurd. "Hot and cold" foods - honestly. It's as bad as Chinese Medicine re poor credibility.
Neither are your shoes and your computer and the wiring in your house and indeed your apartment/city/country ;)
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As always, I'll refrain from participating in the argument. But, I will note for the record my own experiences with dairy.
In my youth and until my mid 20s I consumed voluminous quantities of pasteurised poor quality dairy - icecreams, milk, cheese etc. I only really started getting observable problems with it in my mid 20s at the same time as the beginnings of other problems. Since then I've had periods of consuming the highest quality butter, milk, yoghurt, cream available (organic, grass-fed, A2, home kefir'd etc). I still have issues with it myself. I can get away with the odd piece of unpasteurised goat or ewe cheese but it's generally not worth the bother. However, my recent reintroduction of raw, grass-fed jersey butter seems not to have caused any problems. Of course, it's sometimes difficult if not impossible to recognise problems until they become major issues but it feels ok to me so far.
My partner, on the other hand, seems to have no issues with dairy at all. My influence has meant that the limited milk she drinks is raw, organic, grass-fed etc as is the cream and butter. Most of the cheese she eats is unpasteurised but not always. She has no problems with it and appears in good, strong health (probably better health than I following my ill health history).
I'm still open-minded about the possibilities of dairy products as part of a human diet under certain circumstances. Of course, it's not paleo but any attempt at pure emulation of our perceived view of such is always going to be futile. I think Dr Harris makes many good points on the subject.
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There seems to be a notion that everybody's body is the same.
Yes and this is not uncommon. I've seen it in every diet and heatlh forum I've perused that had a substantial number of posts. Many people who experience a dramatic rejuvenation after changing a certain variable like diet quickly become convinced that the same formula will help everyone and develop an urge to save the world by proseletyzing it.
One man's meat truly is another's poison. An Ayurvedic physician that I know told me of one girl he treated that needed (the healing effect of) ghee so badly for a chronic issue she had that she could down a cup or more of ghee at one sitting. I love ghee and butter dearly, but I'd be making long distance calls on the big porcelain telephone if I had that much. ;) ;D
Yes, to further prove that point, when I consumed about a 1/3 cup of warmed ghee once it didn't loosen my bowels in the slightest but it did give me stomach gas with belching, nausea, headache, full-body malaise, mental fog, restless sleep and a nightmare that woke me up around 4 am. In contrast, I can eat 2 or 3 cups of raw 100% grassfed suet with nothing more than a few mild burps and large amounts of raw supermarket marrow with no negative symptoms at all (though I don't care for the taste of supermarket marrow--but I add spice to make it palatable for me). As a matter of fact, the more grassfed suet I eat the better I feel--which is the opposite of my experience with ghee.
Milk is like every other food...
That goes further than I would. I don't think that every food is equal, but I accept that your reports that you handle milk well.
To me this is supposed to be a forum like the old Roman public meeting place where discussion is backed up with facts as you said.
That's pretty rare in Internet forums. They are generally more dominated by speculative opinions, extrapolations and emotion. I'll bet that speculation and emotion existed even in the Roman senate. Speculation has its place, but I agree that ideally it shouldn't dominate.
.... I've had periods of consuming the highest quality butter, milk, yoghurt, cream available (organic, grass-fed, A2, home kefir'd etc). I still have issues with it myself. I can get away with the odd piece of unpasteurised goat or ewe cheese but it's generally not worth the bother. However, my recent reintroduction of raw, grass-fed jersey butter seems not to have caused any problems. Of course, it's sometimes difficult if not impossible to recognise problems until they become major issues but it feels ok to me so far.
.... I'm still open-minded about the possibilities of dairy products as part of a human diet under certain circumstances. Of course, it's not paleo but any attempt at pure emulation of our perceived view of such is always going to be futile. ....
I see taking into consideration what was eaten going back millions of years in the past not as necessarily blind emulation, but instead it can mean just taking advantage of useful clues from evolutionary biology and not casually dismissing millions of years of human and hominid experience.
I accept the claims of dairy proponents that they handle it well, but it's interesting that you, Tyler and me all have issues with most or all forms of dairy, even the ones that dairy-eating Paleo and Primal dieters advocate. I want to believe them that the dairy will only be beneficial for me, it would add another source of fat I could eat, but I unfortunately don't find that to be true in my case, for whatever reasons. That some dairy advocates apparently then accuse people like us of not eating dairy or dairy fat just because of emulation doesn't seem scientific to me. It is true that some Paleo dieters appear to make the mistake of assuming that anything not eaten in the past must be really bad, so I can understand how someone could make the mistaken assumption that all Paleos who avoid dairy do so merely because of emulation. I see what our ancestors ate going back millions of years as an important clue, not an absolute guarantee that a food is poison. For that matter, I try to avoid positing absolutes in general.
There are a couple other interesting cases within the online dieting community to add to yours, Tyler's and mine. Paleo fitness expert Robb Wolf reported that his friend, Paleo diet advocate and former pro football player John Wellborne, was so adamantly pro-pastured-dairy that he almost came to blows with Loren Cordain over it. Yet, when John eventually tried eliminating dairy from his diet he experienced improvements like better lipid, blood glucose, and triglyceride numbers. Since John's improvements and similar reports from other Paleo dieters, and recent studies suggesting links between dairy and cancer, Robb Wolf said he "is getting more and more nervous about recommending [dairy], even [from] grassfed sources." (Source: Robb Wolf Offers 'The Paleolithic Solution' To Obesity And Disease, Interview by Jimmy Moore of Livin' La Vida Low Carb (http://www.carbwire.com/2010/05/26/robb-wolf-offers-the-paleolithic-solution-to-obesity-and-disease))
Even raw grassfed milk can turn out to be a problem for people who thought they handled dairy fine. Matt Stone seems to be the popular diet guru of the moment. Here's Matt's raw "Milk Diet Fail" story:
"On the 26th day of the milk diet I started having some gastrointestinal issues. I woke up and fasted for most of the day on the 27th, bent over in pain and pooping every 30 minutes. By the end of the day, the last thing in the world I was wanting to do was drink more m'f'in milk. Boo to the Moo.
Couple this with the fact that I was in basically a hyperallergenic state and snotty as hell, and I was ready to mooove on. I was even snoring for the first time in a decade or so, and keeping Aurora up at night. I had to sleep on the couch by the end of the milk diet - or, more accurately, lying awake on the couch at night." (Source: http://180degreehealth.blogspot.com/2010/06/milk-diet-fail.html)
So it's interesting, Michael, that multiple people who were well-disposed to including dairy in their diet, like you, Tyler, John Wellborne, some of Robb Wolf's clients, Matt Stone and me, have all had similar negative experiences with dairy and this shows that there is a grain of truth in what Tyler says about longtime dairy advocates later changing their tunes (but he unfortunately exaggerates the point).
The pro dairy claims just don't pan out for me, though I won't jump to the conclusion that Tyler seems to that dairy must be horribly evil for nearly everyone. I only suggest that people consider a period of dairy elimination like John Wellborne did before assuming they thrive on it. It won't kill people to go without dairy for 4 weeks or so and it makes sense based on at least the precautionary principle.
Like you, I haven't ruled out the possibility of including a little of some form of dairy in my diet in the future, but it just hasn't been a viable option for me up to this point. Also like you, I try not to get into debates with dairy advocates, because I've had bad experiences in the past with some rather zealous dairy advocates who went ballistic over any negative reports about dairy. Dairy, fruit and fatty cooked meats like pemmican seem to be akin to sacred manna for some people. Anything negative said about them seems to be regarded by them as sacrilege worthy of instant damnation and debates over those foods tend to be the most heated. Have you noticed that hardly anyone gets bent out of shape over broccoli, lean meats or fish? :D
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Yes and this is not uncommon. I've seen it in every diet and health forum I've perused that had a substantial number of posts. Many people who experience a dramatic rejuvenation after changing a certain variable like diet quickly become convinced that the same formula will help everyone and develop an urge to save the world by proselytizing it.
Yes, to further prove that point, when I consumed about a 1/3 cup of warmed ghee once it didn't loosen my bowels in the slightest but it did give me stomach gas with belching, nausea, headache, full-body malaise, mental fog, restless sleep and a nightmare that woke me up around 4 am. In contrast, I can eat 2 or 3 cups of raw 100% grassfed suet with nothing more than a few mild burps and large amounts of raw supermarket marrow with no negative symptoms at all (though I don't care for the taste of supermarket marrow--but I add spice to make it palatable for me). As a matter of fact, the more grassfed suet I eat the better I feel--which is the opposite of my experience with ghee.
Well said. There is an Ayurvedic process that is done at certain times of the year as a multi day cleanse which usually involves a gradual daily build-up of ghee consumption which is to turn off the digestion to reduce hunger and thus limit food intake to give the system a break. Not a fast but a semi-fast ;D . When you do it there is rules regarding food and especially any oil or dairy consumption because you will get nauseous as well as all the symptoms you described. To do this properly it is best to have a specific regimen prescribed by an Ayurvedic practitioner. After the prescribed # of days you do the "Holy shit" as my buddy calls it with a prescribed dose of usually triphala and or Castor blaster ;D
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Neither are your shoes and your computer and the wiring in your house and indeed your apartment/city/country ;)
The difference is that Ayurveda has been useless for me whereas electricity, my shoes etc. have been very useful indeed. Personally, though, I would be happier if I didn't depend on them and behaved like my Cro-Magnon ancestors.
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it's interesting that you, Tyler and me all have issues with most or all forms of dairy, even the ones that dairy-eating Paleo and Primal dieters advocate.
What are your guys ancestory??
Both my parents happen to have direct ancestory from the denmark area and for the most part the bloodline is still very pure. I can handle tons of raw milk, butter cheese etc. I actually handle this stuff better then meat currently, my diet is probably 70% dairy. I've been experimenting with this for a couple months now and so far I feel great, chronic acne is gone(as long as I don't cheat with starches), my digestion is freakin amazing and I am probably the most active I've ever been.
I definetly am on the lookout for problems arising as I've heard so many anecdotal cases of people failing on raw dairy but so far I'm loving it. And while I don't have any blood tests or solid evidence to say its not harming I don't see myself changing the dairy intake anytime soon because I feel great and thats all that matters to me.
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What are your guys ancestory??
Both my parents happen to have direct ancestory from the denmark area and for the most part the bloodline is still very pure. I can handle tons of raw milk, butter cheese etc. I actually handle this stuff better then meat currently, my diet is probably 70% dairy. I've been experimenting with this for a couple months now and so far I feel great, chronic acne is gone(as long as I don't cheat with starches), my digestion is freakin amazing and I am probably the most active I've ever been.
I definetly am on the lookout for problems arising as I've heard so many anecdotal cases of people failing on raw dairy but so far I'm loving it. And while I don't have any blood tests or solid evidence to say its not harming I don't see myself changing the dairy intake anytime soon because I feel great and thats all that matters to me.
From Denmark here as well. Scandinavia in general have an almost legendary tollerance for dairy. A lot of us grew up on half a liter per day. Pasteurized, homogenized milk. We do not have unusually many cases of osteoporosis as far as I know and the decline in public health is without a shred of doubt linked to our growing intake of refined carbohydrates in the shape of white flour, sugar etc. That and all the shitty "natural" oils we have been reccomended to take instead of healthy animal fat. Dairy was our number one protein for hundreds of years and eating lard was common.
As I have said before. I have more energy when I keep some dairy in my diet. I dont need a whole lot of it, but some is better than none for me. Atleast on a primarily carnivore diet. I know more than one bodybuilder whos main stable is raw cream and butter. I am not a dairy advocate however, simply because I do realise that science view it as a fact that the large majorty of people on earth are lactose/casein intollerant in various degrees. ranging from unpleasant to dangerous. But for those of us who can handle and even thrive on it, I see absolutely no reason not to eat what is availiable to us.
Raw Paleo can easily go the way of veganism and become cult like with rigid rulesets defined by people I dont reckall voting in as absolute authority on these matters. I believe that would be missing the point of what we are doing completely.
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I think Dr Harris makes many good points on the subject.
Can you give me a link or flesh in where you heard of Dr. Harris?
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....As for PP's spurious claims, they are motivated by numerous previous discussions where I, very scientifically, debunked his notions re Noble Savagery , the supposedly "healthy" French, Kurt Harris etc. etc. etc. Just sour grapes on his part. l)
This is a classic example of one of TD's favorite tactics that I mentioned: straw man arguments. I have never advocated noble savagery or claimed that all French are "healthy", yet he persists in misrepresenting my views and those of anyone he disagrees with. It's a sure sign of a weak argument when he resorts to such tactics.
I don't advocate "noble savagery" or blind emulation, I advocate doing whatever works for you (for some reason, Tyler continues to ignore my signature that indicates this). If it turns out that what works for you includes some things that "savages" (hunter gatherers and Stone Agers) practiced, I don't think that means you advocate "noble savagery". Ironically, critics have accused everyone here, including Tyler and indeed all Paleo dieters, of advocating "noble savagery" and practicing blind emulation of "savages," so it's rather ironic that Tyler casually tosses those insults at others here. It shouldn't be necessary to say it, but I also don't regard hunter gatherers and Stone Agers as "savages". I think they were human beings with different, more "primitive"/ancestral lifestyles than ours (sometimes including things I don't advocate, like various forms of cannibalism). "Savages" has a more emotional/negative/magical context outside the bounds of science and reason. On the other hand, I do sometimes jokingly refer to myself as a "savage" because I eat a mostly-raw Paleo diet, so I see the insult as more a sign that I'm doing something right than something to be bothered by.
What are your guys ancestory??
Mostly so-called "Celtic" (though scientists still aren't sure whether the people identified as "Celtic" are really descended from Celts or earlier peoples that the Celts conquered) in my case, with a fair amount of Norman (Norse-man). I most resemble my Irish grandfather who was of ancient Irish stock.
Some claim that Scandinavians became fully adapted to dairy products in less than 10 thousand years of consuming them as staples, but then how do we explain why they have some of the highest osteoporosis rates in the world whereas Japanese and Okinawans who eat little or no dairy have much lower rates of osteoporosis? On the other hand, I haven't heard of the Masai or Evenks having osteoporosis, so it could depend on the type of milk consumed (bovine vs. reindeer or goat, A1 vs A2, pasteurized vs. raw, etc.).
Years ago I thought I handled dairy well, loved it, drank large quantities of whole milk, and used full-fat cream. I used to thank my lucky stars that I wasn't intolerant of dairy fat like my sisters (little did I know). They had to drink nonfat milk because they would upchuck whole milk, yet they could eat animal body fats. Similarly, I find I can digest animal body fats better than dairy fat, but I didn't fully notice this until I eliminated dairy from my diet and months later tried re-introducing dairy products.
I envy you if you're doing well with dairy. Have you ever tried dairy elimination?
Can you give me a link or flesh in where you heard of Dr. Harris?
Dr. Harris' excellent blog is at http://www.paleonu.com/. Fair warning, he has written some harsh things about this blog and its members, and I initially took umbrage at it (and overreacted, regrettably), but I decided that the value of the information he provides far outweighs petty bad feelings over insults, and there was a grain of truth in what he wrote--for example, his criticisms were quite applicable to the posts of William who used to be a member here and who did advocate blindly utopian noble savagery and exhibited magical thinking. There are also times (such as recently) when Tyler's posts justify KGH's criticisms, so I can understand how he could have gotten the impression of us that he did, but I think that even Tyler didn't adopt a raw Paleo diet because of blind emulation, but rather because "no one would touch this type of diet unless they'd tried everything else and this diet alone worked." It's frankly bizarre that Tyler implies that I am motivated by "noble savagery" or emulation of the French when I have quoted his reasoning in my signature.
Tyler seems to have something against the French and North Africans for some reason and I will admit to tweaking him a bit on that as I do enjoy teasing (a weakness I haven't been able to correct and in which I take after my grandfather who I admired). Every time he denounces the French I like to come up with something nice to say about them to stir his pot. :D Let me see, what can I say this time--I know, we have some marvelous French members here who add a lot to the discussions.
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I envy you if you're doing well with dairy. Have you ever tried dairy elimination?
Yup, I was switching between different diets for a while. For a good couple of months I was doing lots of dairy and fermented grains. This was ok at first but after a couple months I definitely had issues, which i attributed mostly to the dairy at the time. After trying to tweak random things(more animal foods, more meat, less carbs) I've come back to the dairy and do not suffer from the problems I had before. But like I said I'm definitely on the lookout for any future problems as I had some issues before.
Like the other poster I was raised on copious amounts of pasteurized milk and was relatively healthy till I changed my diet to mcdonalds and coca cola.
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I was raised by a health conscious mother who provided plenty of milk and whole grains and very little soda pop, but I and my siblings nonetheless had health problems. How long did your dairy elimination last?
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How long did your dairy elimination last?
Probably a couple months, before the dairy/fermented grain diet I was off dairy for 2 years.
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OK, that sounds like a thorough test to me if you didn't experience any benefits from a 2 year dairy elimination.
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This is a classic example of one of TD's favorite tactics that I mentioned: straw man arguments. I have never advocated noble savagery or claimed that all French are "healthy", yet he persists in misrepresenting my views and those of anyone he disagrees with. It's a sure sign of a weak argument when he resorts to such tactics.
Hypocrite. You previously went on the bandwagon some months ago claiming that the French were super-healthy people as regards diet. It took me and 1 or 2 French members of rawpaleoforum to laboriously point out your many errors in making such an absurd claim. Same goes as regards Noble Savagery arguments you made in the past, re your defence of Weston-Price, who was THE primary advocate of Noble Savage notions.
As for making spurious claims re the French and North Africans, that's just stupid. For one thing, I happen to pride myself on my illustrious Norman ancestry so it's absolutely laughable to suggest that I am anti-French. As for the North African remark, I merely made, in a thread about foreign customs re toilet habits, a valid point, in passing, to the toilet training of some North African immigrants who broke into my house on several occasions. Yet you chose to "reinterpret" what I'd said, in the most unethical, inaccurate way possible, as always.
Re ancestry:- I am mainly of Celtic/Viking descent, I guess. I doubt that DNA is all that relevant, though. Besides,Northern Europe was one of the last bastions of hunter-gatherer activity until grains and the Neolithic civilisation was transmitted from the Middle-East into Europe. So, I would assume that they got started on raw dairy at a much later date than those in Southern Europe.
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Besides,Northern Europe was one of the last bastions of hunter-gatherer activity until grains and the Neolithic civilisation was transmitted from the Middle-East into Europe. So, I would assume that they got started on raw dairy at a much later date than those in Southern Europe.
The hunter-gatherers who inhabited the southern coast of Scandinavia 4,000 years ago were lactose intolerant. This has been shown by a new study carried out by researchers at Uppsala University and Stockholm University. The study, which has been published in the journal BMC Evolutionary Biology, supports the researchers' earlier conclusion that today's Scandinavians are not descended from the Stone Age people in question but from a group that arrived later.
From the sounds of it some sort of nomadic dairy tribe replaced the HG's in northern europe, the people who replaced the HG's are the ancestors of modern day northern europeans.
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Hypocrite. You previously went on the bandwagon some months ago claiming that the French were super-healthy people as regards diet.
Utter nonsense. Firstly, what does "super-healthy people as regards diet" mean as compared to just "super-healthy people"? Does it mean they are supposed to be super-healthy when they're eating food and then unhealthy when they're not? Do you mean the diet is claimed to be healthy but the people are not? I don't even know what that is supposed to mean so I certainly didn't write it anywhere. Show me where you claim I wrote that so I can understand what you're referring to.
I posted positive comments about France but I didn't claim that all French people are "super-healthy". I've personally met French people of merely average health so why on earth would I contradict my own experience? And why would someone who eats a hunter-gatherer style diet think that the French Neolithic diet is optimal? It makes no sense. Making note of the historical contribution of the French people and culture to the ancestral diet and lifestyle movement (which was in part inspired as a counter-balance to your rantings against the French) and making note of the many times that connections between raw and Paleo and France have come up in this forum and elsewhere is not equivalent to claiming that all French people of today are "super-healthy". These claims are so ridiculous they are either astoundingly stupid or outright lies. You have a habit of exaggerating other people's statements to an extreme degree and it greatly undermines your credibility. The straw man tactic is clearly your favorite.
If you know of far more raw or Paleo European nations and raw ancestral diet movements like Instincto elsewhere in Europe, then by all means share with us. I would be happy to learn about such things and to give those nations their due. I'm more interested in praising the positive contributions of various nations and peoples than in your habit of ranting about their inadequacies. I not only don't claim that the entire French nation is "super-healthy," I've never made that claim about any nation and I don't know of one that is. Do you? I don't know which is the healthiest European nation, but I suspect it might be one of the Scandinavian nations, rather than France, because I've read some positive reports about general health in Scandinavia and I've read that they eat a fair amount of raw fish. Are you now going to claim that I've said that the Scandinavians are super-healthy? If not, why the double-standard? Like the French, the Scandinavians also have health problems. I've seen reports that osteoporosis is a significant issue among them. I suppose the closest thing to that I know of to super-healthy nations are Kitava and Okinawa, but they're not even sovereign independent nations, AFAIK.
It took me and 1 or 2 French members of rawpaleoforum to laboriously point out your many errors in making such an absurd claim. Same goes as regards Noble Savagery arguments you made in the past, re your defence of Weston-Price, who was THE primary advocate of Noble Savage notions.
You don't strike me as stupid, so these must surely be lies rather than idiocy. I have repeatedly stated that I don't advocate "noble savagery" nor the Weston Price diet (nor the WAPF diet for that matter). You are the only one in this forum who has suggested these things about me and you continue to do so even after I have repeatedly asked you to stop. If anyone else thinks these things then they should by all means speak up, but if you think that others do then I suspect that you're just imagining it. I've even had WAPF and dairy supporters criticize me and debate what I've posted both here and at the Paleofood forum, so your claims lack any credibility. I didn't defend everything that Weston Price wrote, how could I when I frequently post about my poor history with dairy? Heck, I've even agreed with you in this very thread: "and once in a while I even agree with Tyler, such as on the likely sub-optimal nature of dairy foods as compared to raw animal body fats." To accuse someone who doesn't even eat dairy of being purely a defender of Weston Price is so ridiculous it it borders on the insane. I merely refuted some of your extreme exaggerations about Weston Price, France and North Africa, as have others. Stop misrepresenting me, Raw-Al and anyone else who disagrees with you! I have asked you repeatedly and my patience with your behavior is growing thin. If you didn't at least provide some good info now and then I wouldn't have put up with any of it.
I wonder if you make these ridiculous accusations just to get me to say more critical stuff about Weston Price, the WAPF, Gary Taubes, other dairy supporters and dairy in general? One tendency of yours I've noticed is that if anything dares to say anything slightly positive about dairy or dairy proponents, you go ballistic and accuse the poster of being defenders of them. You come across as having some unresolved emotional issues re: your bad past experiences with dairy.
And BTW, why is it OK for you to recommend Weston Price as a source, as below, yet castigate me for correcting some of your exaggerations re: him?
Quote from: van
Tyler, are there 'easy' references you could point to for reading how the Inuit ate a lot more raw than Steffanson points out. He does write though about eating frozen fish throughout the winter.
Just read Weston Price's Nutrition and Physical Degeneration book which contains the details.
As for your issues with France and North Africans, if you don't even recognize your past comments as having a negative tilt, that merely suggests that you're oblivious to it. Is it only coincidence that you seem to blow a gasget any time anyone says anything positive about France or the French (in addition to dairy, Weston Price, and Gary Taubes) or dares to disagree with you about any of your hot-button topics (such as ZC, pemmican, fruit and autism)? It's hilarious how easy it is to get you riled up about it. If you're not going to do that anymore then that is good news for the interests of reasonableness and science, though it would mean fewer laughs.
BTW, need I remind you that the Normans were not originally French, nor do they represent all of French people or culture? They originated in Scandinavia and came to France as invaders:
"The Normans were the people who gave their name to Normandy, a region in northern France. They were descended from Viking conquerors of the territory and the native population of mostly Frankish and Gallo-Roman stock. Their identity emerged initially in the first half of the tenth century, and gradually evolved over succeeding centuries. The name "Normans" derives from Nortmanni (Northmen), after the Vikings who founded Normandy." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Normans
Plus, many of the Normans moved on to England, which is how you and I got our Norman ancestry, and their descendents eventually regarded themselves as English/British and even went to war with France. So it's quite possible to adore the Normans while despising the rest of the French and French culture. If there's something you like about the French or North Africans, no one is stopping you from sharing it.
Personally, though, I would be happier if I didn't depend on them and behaved like my Cro-Magnon ancestors.
Based on your past and current behavior, if I wrote that you would probably claim I was promoting "noble savagery," yet for some reason it's OK for you to do it.
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As usual, you've written a whole load of absurd claims about what I said and are , curiously very defensive indeed re your past comments in praise of Weston-price's Noble Savage notions etc.
Since most of the above is just a load of old cobblers, and , anyway, your past discussions are a matter of record on rawpaleoforum given past threads over the years, I think I'll just leave it to others to navigate the forum and see what was really said(there's, for example) an old thread in which Carnivore, a previous French member, and I believe Alphagruis contributed to, in which PP makes a paen of praise about the supposed "health" of the French. It'll avoid more name-calling from both sides, as it's just getting boring.
Oh, here's a rather obvious point:- I am perfectly well aware that the Normans were originally of Scandinavian descent re Viking invaders, but they mixed thoroughly with the local French population and their culture became exclusively French. While some Normans came to England at the time, other Normans stayed in Normandy within France. And, besides, I've mentioned previously that I'm partially of Celtic stock, of which a large part is Breton. So, it's just laughable to claim I am anti-French.