Somehow, I overlooked replying to this thread, even though I'd read and re-read the subsequent replies (thanks to everyone). I must've been subconsciously accumulating some potentially useful muses to spout at the point of critical mass, or thereabouts.

Michael, you are the master of darkness - a much coveted title! Typically, you're representing the pinnacle, by any measure (kewl!)...;-)) Maybe things would be much better in the vast presence of a truly photon-unpolluted night sky...

Nevertheless, there is some perturbation to my mind in the devaluation/dismissal of the application of liver flushing and castor oil packs. Care to elucidate your rationale, if it pleases you...

Initially, it's well-established that bile fulfils many roles within the downstream GI tract, particularly the pH balancing of stomach churn/chyme, amphiphilic emulsification of fats (and thereby uptake of fat-soluble nutrients) and stimulation of intestinal peristalsis. We also realise that bile facilitates the transport of fat-soluble toxins and spent blood cell components (i.e. bilirubin) out into the intestines for clearance to the greater sewer system. Clearly (or murkily!), bile flow is key...

I seem to remember reading somewhere that stomach acid production bears some correlation to bile output, although I can't provide a reference at the moment (hyperlinkmania). Maybe the stomach throttles back when it gets the signal (somehow, don't know the mechanism - vagal-enteric system!) that too much acid is entering the intestine without sufficient normalisation/neutralisation by bile/pancreatic fluid.

Of course, with high fat consumption, along with the non-essential amino acids taurine/glycine, some phosphatidyl choline / lecithin and maybe(!) some regularly ingested bitters (e.g. gentian/angustora, coffee, arugula etc.), bile stasis and crystallisation out of solution may be discouraged. Nevertheless, after some decades with a toxic non-paleolithic living/eating style, coupled with disrespect for circadian rhythms, bile statis and crystallisation of bile components (that is, cholesterol, fat-soluble toxins, salts etc.) due to electrical charge imbalances in the substrate, precipitate (literally!) solid globule formation/growth. In their more sinister maturity, these well-formed crystal/precipitated globules take on a rock-hard mineral coat with the ubiquitous title "gallstones".

Apparently, these heavyweights resist all manner of punishments, leaving the remaining (last resort) option to relax the smooth muscles controlling peristalsis of the biliary tree (intra-hepatic ducts, cystic duct, common bile duct) and orchestrate a devisive spasm-contraction/action of the liver/gallbladder to push debris towards the light at the end of the tunnel. This is the basis of the so-called liver/GB flush...(and subsequent fasttrack of this preformed toxic material out of the downstream GI tract)

I found many methods to "spasmode" my bile injectors/ejectors, but consistently, without some dosing of epsom salts and liquid fats (e.g. 200ml extra virgin olive oil), I have never witnessed biliary debris in the bowl, although I don't exactly pay excess attention! I can consistently stimulate bile release and rapid peristalsis by drinking a cup of cold-brewed/toddy (low-caffeine) coffee with nut milk, or otherwise, just some "yellow dock+bupleurum" tincture in water (there are many more examples that work for me, which I've oft stumbled upon by accident).

I've recommended liver/GB flushing to many people and noticed radical changes in their health (eye whites, lipofuscin/moles/tags disappearing, clearance of inflammation, massive improvement in circulation, fat deposits clearing). Personally, to dismiss this kind of healing modality constitutes a disservice in my opinion...Of course, as a perpetual skeptic without necessarily also having the hinges of self-righteous pragmatism, I'm open to debunking...

I use castor packs regularly and I notice the action they have to stimulate lymph/circulatory movement (as well as the potential to impact biliary deposits) and produce an unquestionable sense of wellbeing. Do you have experience with this folk/archaic practice, which lives on 'til this day?

My intention is to completely transition to RAF-ZC-IF, although I still notice rapid heart rate, cramps etc. without some enjoyment of fruits, nuts, minerals/salts etc. Also, I neither trust water direct from the tap nor from plastic bottles on a shelf. I prefer to make rainwater, add some ionic electrolytes, structure with quartz/magnets and complex with a small ratio of fresh coconut water/pulp. I don't like drinking mineral water containing dissolved rocks and then pissing it out multiple times during the day. Maybe if I was drinking direct from a spring (or collected regularly in glass bottles), I'd consider drinking spring water moderately, but frankly, I've never developed a taste for plain water. The dichotomy is that some peoples seem to thrive on low TDS water and some on high TDS water, but maybe neither of those were ever stagnating/de-vitalising in plastic (a sweet source of xenoestrogens).

One perspective:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4770477589537728517#docid=-8915966819502040048

People may say "it works for me" in defence of some kind of self-fashioned/fashioning fiction, yet may I assert that every sensory experience is relative, even as respects the hallmarks of a truly functional homeostatic. It's probably the same reason that I'm now humbly eating raw grass-fed flesh in lieu of descending into catabolic, pseudo-spiritualised meltdown...

Intermittent Fasting @ Work:
By the way, does anyone ever eat two RAF meals roughly between 12:30 and 16:00 at work? I work 08:00-16:30 in an office with little tolerance for anything as free/open-minded as ZC-RAF-IF, so I would typically have to eat my lunch at 12:30 and then the subsequent meal at 15:30 (clocking off for a half-hour 'til 16:00). I would propose to eat maybe a piece of fruit or something between those meals, which would allow me to finish digestion at 19:30 latest and detox 'til 12:30 the following day (17 hours of metabolic freedom).

What says any IFers around here? (incidentally, who is doing IFing?)

Has anyone ever considered Viktor Schauberger's work (vortex-love!) on water vitality?

I'm eating (loving!) 300-400g meat (different cuts - mainly fatty rump, chuck, shin, topside, lamb chops) with some liver and egg yolks, plus freshly chopped 50-100g top-brisket fat between two meals. I estimate that about 25% of meat is protein, so I keep below 100g protein, so as not to do the excess gluconeogenesis thing and resultant glycation.

Has anyone noticed improvement in wrinkling (probably AGEs/age(!)-related) around eyes on ZC?

With the dualistic cosmology, we can all recognise that not one person has the same experience, so insight/hindsight is not always readily transferrable in whispers...;-))

To some extent, I appreciate the pragmatic counter-ideology and outright personal efficacy that you're playfully presenting William, although are you referring to pemmican as a means of surviving or thriving?

Did you notice typical systemic healing manifestations after transitioning to cooked meats/fats?

Also, I'm int'rested in your dismissal of the oxysterol case. I realise that most of these half-baked studies are useless and biased, yet you can't deny that these in-vivo studies on our rodent friends demonstrated a histologically-absolute deleterious effect on tissues at the cellular level.

The cigarette smoke assertion is non-relevant in this context, is it not? After all, we're not looking to treat/manage inflammation (like other pharmacological anti-inflammatories), but simply to eliminate its basis (that is, digging one's own grave with one's teeth). Isn't tobacco a member of the nightshade family anyway, and as such pro-inflammatory (not to mention the radioactive soil it's grown in and nasty compounds it's complexed with). Yet again, I'm requiring more elaboration/elucidation because you've stimulated my interest again...

Once again, we can only look to nature as a guide (even in the context of paleo bushcraft/tooling) - life begets life...

If one's interest is longevity (that is, neither rotting nor rusting), one may consider eating one's flesh without violent thermodynamics / oxidative intent. ;-))

Furthermore, I don't know how much anyone here subscribes to the electronic nature of the contents of their plate, but doesn't cooked food (with its mildly/pronounced toxic payload) deliver electron-deficient molecules, as well as depleting spare electrons (toxins rob electrons) and anti-oxidant stores? Cooked-up molecules must be the basis for some inflammation...

I suppose cooking (along with soaking, fermenting etc.) could be considered a form of pre-digestion, but its associated apparatus and end-products could observably be deemed least natural (there's no other form that applies high temperature, except mildly in the case of fever or something like that).

The apparatus of cooking I suppose is more of an epigenetic prosthesis, but how well this reconciles (currently) with the human genome is playing itself out, of course.

I have no reason to articulate this verbiage, other than to invoke a deeper, more interesting response from you (William), possibly with a wider context.

I'm glad that this thread has evolved to such an extent while I've been in absentia...

Thanks for doing the productive experimentation Michael, which is really appreciated. My best results have always begun with the hand mincer.

I've spoken to Dave @ Green Pasture before and he informed me that due to the preservative/lactic acids in the fermented CLO, they could not even get a lipid peroxide reading after the bottle was left open outside the fridge for a long period. Ultimately, I suppose it's just like consuming "high" meats, which must somehow have microbially-preserved elements including the fragile/volatile fatty acids.

Does anyone here consume small quantities of plant-based PUFAs (hemp, flax, borage, evening primrose, blackcurrant seed)?

Also, I've often made my own ghee in an earthenware pot with either curry leaves or green rooibos added to minimise oxidation (that's traditionally what was done). Naturally, one can use hemp/cannabis leaf to great effect. Also, it's said that fat-dissolved herbs (like in these ghee preparations) cross the cell membrane better, although I couldn't cite any studies or anything.

I would love to make "raw" ghee from grass-fed butter without a centrifuge like GP uses, if anyone has the secret! I'm off non-raw ghee for the meantime because I can secure nice animal fats.

I consume 2ml of fermented CLO per day - the tingle is from the lactic acid (or other organic acids) content. Does anyone take krill oil?

Also, does anyone consume that AFA (blue-green algae)?

So is the consensus to keep fat in as large chunks as possible in the fridge to minimise exposed surface area? Currently, I'm mincing all of my fat for quick access (consumed within a week or so).

Also, one thing that's rarely mentioned is oxysterols (oxidised cholesterol)...These must be a major accumulation in long-stored non-raw pemmican or ghee...Anyone done much research into oxysterols?

Food intolerance, particularly with dairy (as Tyler/Michael said) is often the cause of the darkness phenomena.

Gut dysbiosis can be a potent source of toxic metabolites, so that's a consideration. I personally notice that I still have a fermentative condition oftentimes with fruit+nuts, even with high RAF low-carb.

Some debris in the liver/gallbladder is too encrusted and too well-formed for any self-cleaning mechanism (after decades of bile stasis events due to poor lifestyle/nutrition). No amount of fat in the diet will dislodge those stones/deposits. Furthermore, some people that've had their gallbladder removed are only told that it was micro-crystalline sludge that was precipitating their pronounced symptoms. Maybe you could check out some pictures of gallstones to develop a visual feel, or try some flushing for a more kinesthetic feel - definitely something that further whitens the whites of the eyes and gives an awesome feeling of peace/wellbeing ('til more debris comes from the back of the liver and clogs things up again, just in time for the next flush!).

Anyone embarking on healing cannot truly heal (to the greatest extent) without completely emptying the liver/gallbladder/ducts, by means of non-invasive flushing. You can eat whatever optimal paleo food you like, which may have some impact, but the true healing therapeutic begins with the liver. A fully functioning liver means optimal bile output -> optimal peristalsis -> optimal detoxification channel -> clean biliary system -> clean blood -> clean inter-cellular fluid -> clean intra-cellular fluid -> optimal cellular metabolism -> vibrant health and improved anti-oxidant status (toxins typically steal electrons, so better out than in!).

Of course, nutritional excellence and a diverse, well-balanced internal ecosystem follows...Some people don't "seem" to need animal products after this, but that remains to be seen...Some breatharians assert that all essential nutrients can be manufactured by diverse gut flora and maybe they just need a little sugar from time to time, even possibly from urine recycling (shivambu shastra!).

Why does vitamin A / retinol have impact on the hygiene of the liver/gallbladder? In my research, vitamin A has no bearing on bile flow/viscosity, which is ultimately the substance of the "swamp" in that system, which needs to be cleaned and ideally, running like a river with no big rocks or pebbles to inhibit flow. Vitamin A is just a fat-soluble nutrient with lots of metabolic applications, but with no clear impact on bile flow.

The advantage with a high-fat diet is that it constantly requires bile movement, so there's less stagnation and possibly clearance of some of the smaller debris (although not necessarily the larger formations).

I used to drink a large cup of cold-brewed (toddy) coffee in a morning with frothy nut milk, which used to stimulate a nice contraction of the liver/gallbladder (almost like a coffee enema) due to the mild caffeine and a fair amount of nutty fats - I could guarantee that within twenty minutes, there would be a major peristaltic action and the contents of my guts, including a load of bile would be dumped (I always made sure I was on the toilet, naturally). Of course, that's why high-fat RAF diets are a facilitator of good bowel movements - because they stimulate regular, sizeable bile output, which ultimately stimulates peristalsis (hence no requirement for fibre).

On the matter of sleep, there are many factors. I never eat within 3 hours of going to bed. My room is completely dark. My upstairs electrical circuits are off at the circuit breaker - this makes an enormous difference, almost as if the room is more still/super-silent (without electrosmog from circuits, which is also perpetuated by the springs in the bed). Ideally, you'd like to stimulate melatonin production, which is the sleep neurotransmitter (only released fully without the presence of photons, hitting your retina!). Ideally, for human growth hormone to be released and facilitate cellular repair, you have to reach delta sleep and fluctuate between that and dream sleep (you need vitamin B6 for dream recall, so enough of that will allow you to remember dreams - eat your raw meat and maybe have a couple of spoons of fresh bee pollen before bed). Here's an interesting practice (hibernation/overnight diet): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3c1lbfhPLeM (liver glycogen top-up with small raw honey intake for recovery physiology)

Another possibility would be to try herbs like valerian, passionflower, hops, chamomile etc., which invoke a nice, sleepy mood - nice to drink on the beach in the sun or before bed...I often drink a valerian+chamomile tea to diminish my awareness of the less-than-Zen contemporaries at work.

Of course, no stimulants (caffeine, theobromine/cocoa) or fast moving sugars as a minimum.

Following circadian rhythms (knowing your organs follow circadian rhythms as traditional/folkloric medicine asserts) is the best schedule in this age of artificial light and humming electrical circuits...

What about exercise for 0.5-1 hours in the evening?

I've never actually thought of chucking the fat in the food processor, mainly because I thought it would get clogged and burn the motor out or something (this kind of thing often happens to me!).

Currently, I'm using a hand-cranked cheapo mincer, which is made from some kind of composite material and suckered to my worktop (it's come unstuck a few times and gone flying). I've noticed that the auger squeezes the fat so intensely that the sub-structure of it breaks down and then it's extruded into the usual mince profile. Ultimately, I throw this minced product into a large glass jar, which I submerge in a pan of simmering water. Apparently, the squeezed/extruded fat is more fractionated, so it melts very quickly and easily and I simply pour the liquid (not hot, just enough to melt) through a sieve/strainer to remove the undesirables. I'm then left with a product without its non-fat bits that's compactly stored and easily accessible for re-melting or thinly slicing (like a block of cheese) - akin to rendered, but of course, sub-violently-thermodynamic prepared.

I find that auger+extrusion mincing facilitates this melting method - does the food processor method allow the same end product?

---

Also, I've backheeled suet recently in my search for a nicer fat, which is more like cream/butter and gladly, I've discovered a fat cut that's creamier and with more of a yellow tinge. My farm/butcher calls this fat "top brisket fat", which usually comes in cuts almost as long and slender as my arm. Personally, I find this fat to be (consistently!)the creamiest and most delicious fat of all - has everyone tried this fat, with mixed opinions (given that it seems to have a relegated position alongside suet)?

Maybe this is the "back fat" that RawZi was referring to (I think I used to go in the shop and initially ask for "back fat", which is a term I borrowed from Fat of the Land, but they never knew what I meant)...In that case, if you're in the UK, simply ask for "top brisket fat" (I can usually secure up to 1.5kg per week).

Just my two penneth/cents...;-))

Good question and something I've asked myself...

What about procuring an ozonator for yourself and then soaking the meat in the ozonated water? Anaerobes don't like ozone, but I'm not so sure about other so-called pathogens (just something to think/research about anyway).

Haha, thanks for the quick responses.

It was probably more experimentation than rushing, hehe. I'm a curious party...

Really, it's borne out of a will for those fat-soluble vitamins - the enamel on my teeth is diminished/weakened from my apple cider vinegar + citrus + burgeoning fruitarian days, so I'm just trying to avoid those fast sugars and acids in my locally available fruits. Without the concentrated carbs or abundance of fruits, I was seeking slow-burning, stable energy from fats (with those great vitamins).

I will definitely ease up on the fats/meats now and transition slowly. Does anyone have any hints about good energy sources without the fast moving sugars in hybrid fruits or concentrated grains/neolithic foods.

Did anyone use neolithic foods while transitioning like pure, raw gluten-free (although not avenin-free!) oats with milk kefir/yoghurt/miso? You get the idea...

I have noticed since eating more fats/meats that I have gained some healthy weight back, which I lost over a couple of years while raw vegan/fruitarian.

So does anyone have a good measure of fats/meats per day, which works for them or is it down to experimentation? Usually, I'm measuring out 200g fatty meat plus 150g suet/back fat twice per day, which I consume as meals with a couple of egg yolks. I tried having cooked egg whites as a transitional thing, but found they were difficult to pass out of the other end!

Hey all,

I've been away from the forum for some time, trying to go with my intuition and attempting to transition of low/zero carb RAF.

However, this last week, after eating mainly meat, fat and egg yolks (usually 60% fats - for last 2 weeks), I've noticed some aching in my upper left quadrant and often an almost hypertensive/tachycardic state. I've been using my training heart rate monitor to check my resting/walking pulse, which is generally between 85-105. My breathing also seems to be more pronounced/hyper when I'm conscious of it. I've also been drinking coconut water with a few drops of ConcenTrace (trace elements without the sodium) for extra minerals, as well as taking a few capsules of french clay + shilajit.

Is this a typical effect of transitioning to keto-adaptation and should i fall back to a certain weight of carbs again to gauge the effect? I know there are posts on here documenting various ill effects from immature transitioning to zero carb RAF but I don't recall when anyone/everyone posted now.

I've never known my heart/circulation to be this restless before, so I'm wondering if anyone has any insights.

Cheers,

MrBBQ

Hey all,

Hope everybody's good...I've not been on here in a week or two, mainly because I've not been near my PC...

I was wondering if anyone had experimented with fermenting meats/organs, such as with biotic marinades like unpasteurised, soured whey or sauerkraut water etc. I've been marinating meats and organics in whey, which seems to tenderise the fleshy/fatty parts quite nicely (it's not something I do all of the time). Obviously, there are other options like kombucha, mother of vinegar etc., but I've not tried them.

Raw liver soaked in soured whey at ambient temperature for 1-2 days seems to come out quite nice. I tend to mix the whey with more water and the meats in a jar, which I then place in a sealer/ziplock bag on my worktop/counter.

Of course, with whey, there's the dairy element, but if it's rinsed to some extent afterwards, I'm not sure if this would constitute anything worth even thinking about.

I started experimenting after my great experiences with lacto-fermented/preserved cod liver oil from Green Pasture - one of the so-called "sacred foods"! Of course, I understand that the ferments are native/wild around that particular medium, but it's always good to introduce cultures into things...

I spoke to the main man at Green Pasture and he said that they couldn't even measure a peroxide value after leaving the cod liver oil at ambient temperature with full oxygen exposure for days on end, so the lactic acid and possibly other elements in the fermented mix must be keeping those polyunsaturated oils pretty darn stable. One wonders if other vegetable-based oils (i.e. small doses of flax, hemp etc.) couldn't be complexed with similar preservatives/cultures to keep them nicely, even in the GI tract and beyond.

On the subject of vegetable-originated lipids, has anyone ever read about black cumin seed oil - pretty amazing stuff! I'm lucky to have someone who will press it to order for me (same as my flax and hemp oils), so it's super fresh/safer.

Any ideas/counter-ideas would be cool, thanks.

All the best,

MrBBQ

Doesn't all dairy contain these fiercely allergenic caseins (amongst other things), that break down into even weirder peptides (in some cases) in the human GI tract?

I suppose I would endorse homemade ghee from grass-fed butter if it weren't for the potential for oxysterols and the like.

I make my own ghee from grass-fed butter, which I use sparingly on a daily basis. If I could get unpasteurised biodynamic goat butter/cream, I might not bother with ghee. The only reason I make ghee is because I only (currently) have access to grass-fed cow's butter, which I find to be very allergenic in it's raw form.

I (and my parents/sibling) love to have certain things with yoghurt (I love the taste from bulgarian yoghurt strains), so I make my own home made unpasteurised goat's yoghurt. Originally, I bought the "bulgarian yoghurt" starter from Natren, cooked up some raw goat's milk to ~55°C (yes, sterilised it, so the milk was not containing "rival" cultures), cooled the milk to ~40°C, introduced a teaspoon of the culture (can't remember the right word for that now - begins "in...") and let it culture over 24 hours. I then poured this derived starter into an ice cube tray and placed in the freezer. I doubt that the original starter was from an unpasteurised product (yoghurt cultures are eventually/gradually overtaken by the abundance of native cultures), so I have no bones (haha, literally!) about making my derived starter in this manner.

I then introduce one ice cube of derived starter into my raw, biodynamic goat's milk and let both sit in the yoghurt maker for 8-12 hours, before setting for a day in the fridge (I'll often sieve the clumps out to make a kind of "yochee").

I usually consume 2-4 tablespoons (if anything) per day of my bi-weekly yoghurt batch, but I realise that it's not optimal, even in these bitesized quantities (just enjoy the taste/texture).

I recommend making a derived culture from the Natren starter for anyone who loves yoghurt - it's the best kind! (haha, I don't work for them, but it's the only source for this Bulgarian strain, unless you'd like me to send you some of my derived culture for the cost of postage - I'm in the UK!).

Enjoy!

MrBBQ

Homo sapien as exclusive frugivore is a myth...Accept that self-evidence as manifest in your tooth compromisation (I did!)...

Fruitarians are always thinking how they can select correctly tree-ripened wild/heirloom fruits or adopting mouth rinsing protocols to keep the pH of the mouth's microenvironment balanced...Typically, this pathetic practice is far removed from the rugged survivalism that brought us thus far in the complex of Earth's challenges (to the point of undermining our nature!). Gaia does not respect human fruitarianism (there's only nature's version of animal welfare, which is kill naturally, or be killed (or defend/poison/paralyse/run/hide/etc.))

It's all nonsense when you realise that your teeth can match any offense, given correct nutrition, particularly an abundance of fat-soluble vitamins - those same vitamins that past tribes presented in abundance to their burgeoning/young families (knowing that their so-called equivalent precursors in the plant kingdom were far less than equivalent (or available/bio-available) by many measures!). Some tribes even file(d) teeth to increase sharpness, which heal(ed) quickly on their traditional diet abundant in animal lipids.

Surely, after some ass-kicking from nature already, you'd understand that your dietary principles do not reconcile with her good will?!

Your long-flogged, futile argumentation now constitutes a waste of time and surely now, the thread must be reaching its conclusion...

I suppose that good people can be at different points in their journey, but given something as severe and previously well-recognised as fruitarian tooth loss, you must really be uttering your cry for help with the intention of changing your ways given the appropriate prompting...

I'd urge you to be open-minded and ignore the fruitarian propagandism (a la durianrider, 80/10/10 crew et al)...Listen to the internal/innate voice of reason and load up on your already massively depleted store of vitamins, before more metabolic manifestations begin to take their toll on you...