If you consider cold as a therapy, you should move here. It`s winter around the year. 

In their newest TV-program, Extreme Dudesons (group of fool finnish people) competed who dives the longest way under ice, naked. Besides that, they competed who survives the longest time in freezing frost (almost -30), naked again.

OT.

    No doubt a continuation of The Polar Bear Club.

http://www-ssc.igpp.ucla.edu/~wgoedeck/polarbear/. We have received many inquiries about other Polar Bear Clubs and related topics. Please submit any information about clubs that you might know about to trygveb@powertech.no  so that we can both add and update information. We will credit contributors, unless requested not to do so. There is a similar list on Trygve Bauge's website, Links to icebathing clubs world wide .
# Belgium, Boom. ROYAL SWIMMING CLUB "DE IJSBEREN" ("THE POLAR BEARS"). During wintertime the swimming-pool of Boom (15 km south of Antwerp) is open, but not heated.  Along with the New Year's Day Plunge, this pool is open 4 days a week for regular ice swimmers.
# Ottawa Polar Bear Club, Canada. This is an offshoot of the Rideau Osgoode Karate Club.  Come join us on January 1st 1998, for this newly created yearly event, and help raise funds for the Children Hospital of Eastern Ontario. Contact Albert Ethier.
# Perth, Ontario, in Canada (about 1 hr west of Ottawa). There are several polar bear swims on Jan 1st in and around Ottawa, as reported by Don Clinton (12/30/98).
# Harbin, China. There is the annual winter Ice Carving Festival in this northeast city of China, also known as "Moscow of the Orient", and "Ice City".  The ice-carved sculptures are very elaborate.  Part of the festival includes trained winter swimmers partaking in aquatic shows.  For more information: http://www.netten.com/harbin.htm http://visit-china-97.com/4season/winter.htm#2 http://134.190.5.41/harbin/harbin.html
# Denmark has several clubs including one in Helsingør (Source: Trygve Bauge).
# Finland has thousands of saunas and icebathers associated with most of these (Trygve Bauge).
# The Boulder Polar Bear Club, Colorado. (Listed here for completeness.)The club was founded in 1983 by: Trygve Bauge , at trygveb@powertech.no  The club has since 1994 been run by: Walter Goedecke, at wgoedeck@mines.edu. The club's main event is the New Year's day dip at which 200-250 icebathers participate each year.
# Western Illinois University, in Macomb, Illinois. A new polar bear club to tentatively start in Macomb, by Brad Nadziejko
# North Beach Maryland Polar Swim Club, North Beach, Maryland. This was the first plunge (1998) held at North Beach, on the Chesapeake Bay. There were about 20 participants, and 150 onlookers. Next year we hope to have more participants, many said they'd bring a friend. Reported by Roy Crockett, at: roy@chesapeake.net
# The Hampton Chapter of the Polar Bear Club, an offshoot of the Midnight Swimmers , Hampton, New Hampshire. Yes, there is also a web page, so check it out! Founded this year (1998) by Dan Edgar.

    A sad lot, they're just children.  They were raised on Kraft macaroni and diet soda unfortunately and are mixed up.

    I like being whole.  I did become vegan and stay vegan for decades, but even in the exact same moment I became vegan I did it with not only animal health in mind but my own too.  I knew I had worth so I not only imparted my worth on the animals, but what they deserve I deserve.  We all die sometime.  They get to live, I get to live.  They get to eat what makes them healthy, I get to eat what makes me healthy.  Animals shouldn't feel guilty for eating and I won't either. 

    Maybe we're more evolved than the 80/10/10ists.  Maybe they are an earlier stage.  Maybe like almost all embryos of all animals look alike but develop differently afterward, maybe one group of humans is like that from another.  Maybe humans were frugivores.  Maybe the 811ers got that right.  Then maybe humans evolved further to eating meat.  I do not believe that eating natural raw meat puts extra stress on the Earth.  I have to add that; because the Grahamonites may be reading this, and get the wrong idea.  Anyway, if evolving to being more advanced went from frugivore to us, and embryos start through the same stages then develop to look like various animals, then maybe we are able to learn their way and still do what's right, but they cannot even try to comprehend our way; because we are the future, their brains are just not developed enough. 

    It's like us thinking we can think like bottlenose dolphins.  We can't.  We have a different complexity of connections between the brain cells.  We are not them.  We are each made differently for reasons.  Some 811ists believe and teach that means we don't have a right to live.  I believe differently, that each has beauty.  We are human and might do well to support each other in best of health.         

    I just feel sorry for Faychesca.  I saw that look in his eyes in his video.  He had a sadistic get-off-on-her fear look when he told of how she was surprised when he told her that other humans eat animals.  Then he looks so insecure when he talks about other things on video.  I hope baby Fay only gets the good.  I felt for her, she must have felt scared when dad got so happy saying outside people eat her friends that she feeds bread to.  I wonder too, why did they have bread in the house after he wrote Grain Damage?

    Sure Doug's skin looks terrible, but his body is fairly muscular.  He manages on his diet, but it's certainly not for everyone.  You're right.  He and his followers push their diet on other people for stomach/guilt chakra's sake.  That is not a right thing to do.  They need healing in their guts.  They have to eat 3,500 per day at least in fruit fiber just to push things along; because their peristaltic muscles don't work.  They get very worn out.  It shows on their faces and organs.  They are full of fear and disgust.  They may jump around like they are on cloud nine, but they can't handle any other emotions.  They are very imbalanced.  I wish them healing.   

RawZi, I think your comment points out well the problem that a number of our critics seem to have. I don't have a problem with their not wanting to eat like us, but that is not sufficient for some of them. Some of them want to tell us how to eat as well, and if we don't follow their prescriptions they label us as fanatics or fools before they've even learned ...

... ethical rather than for health reasons. Their intentions appear to be good. Our critics don't seem to put nearly the effort into learning about us that I did in learning about them and their WOE (which I also knew something about from past brief vegetarian experiences).

    Thank you.

    And no, if you thought I was upset about anything, I'm not.

I like that quote.

My point completely failed to get across to Tyler and possibly others. I'm not saying those photos prove that an obligate or near-obligate carnivore diet is the way to go for everyone or anything like that. I have never said that. As a matter of fact I have frequently explained that I never intend that in any way, shape or form. In general I'm not about promoting things for others (unless they ask--and even then I try to encourage them to seek and decide for themselves) and telling people what to do. I'm not into dogma. I'm about asking questions, refuting extreme claims, posing hypotheses and looking for data. Doug Graham and his followers make extreme claims which his photo vs. Art's call into question. They don't prove anything, but they should make you go "Hmmmm."

...

I'm not promoting any particular diet for others, but In the interests of promoting fairness and avoiding misunderstanding, I'll note anyway that Dr. Cordain and Dr. Harris don't look as good for their age as Dr. De Vany does. I think they would probably admit that, too.

When I do something like posit that maybe humans are facultative faunivores or meat-oriented omnivores, I'm not telling you what to eat, I'm hypothesizing and inviting folks to add data pro or con so I can put my speculations to the test. I don't have a firm opinion and the opinions I do have can change as I receive more data.

When do I think we can "know for certain" that we've found an optimal diet? Never. Instead I seek what works best for me and hope for the best. I may act like I've found the certain "truth" for practical reasons, but I recognize that new evidence or changing circumstances may change what seemed like the "truth." I hope that this time I've cleared this up.

I had hoped that my current signature would have helped make this clearer, but signatures are pretty small, so maybe no one noticed mine. Admittedly, I often don't read other people's signatures until long after I've been reading their posts.

I love chewing on bones of all kinds - I always have, even though for nearly all of my life the bones were cooked and some could splinter dangerously.  (People used to tease me about being a caveman.)  

    I used to chew on all the bones too.  Before I became VEGAN FOr NEARLY 30 Years, I remember someone said to me "I don't have to tell you there are children starving in Africa".  I didn't like meat back then, unless it had a bone in it.  Thinking back, although I didn't like meat, I did like bones.  I found the marrow, tendons, gristle, and cartilage to be nice to chew on and swallow bits.  I chewed open whatever bones I could, like chicken.  I chewed on fish bones (and fish skin).  I don't think I was like a caveman, more like a skinny canine that somehow disliked the meat every single dinner and lunch.  I did like sweetbreads when I tried them as a child, I liked them a lot.  I (accidentally) frustrated my parents to no end maybe, them buying good meat, me not really enjoying it and going gaga over the bones.  I had never had the opportunity for raw bones back then.

    Thirst for minerals?  Need for connective tissue?  

Is it safe to eat them raw or better to be boiled ?

    I've never seen them.  I assume most (natural) animal products if not all are better raw.  If you are accustomed to cooked foods, this would be a good one.  It would have to be cooked all through, not just whatever meat or skin might be on them.  Like I said, not having seen them, I have little conception.   

point seemed to be that a society where a female had open continuous free choice of multiple partners could not work.  

    I think it could work, and work out very harmoniously.  Of course the "continuous free choice of multiple partners" would have to be something she developed.  Everything has to come "organically".

    Monogamy, monoandry and monoamory are not in everyone's genes.  There are people whose ancestry is much different.  We all especially including them would do well to respect that in them.  One problem is that some people are not true to themselves.  They don't even communicate with themselves if they don't have to.  

    It's hard to have a relationship with even one other person when people don't even think enough or care enough to love themselves.

    To be poly would not only not be only free, but it would involve lots of caring and other energy.  Like they say, you are not given liberty, you take liberty.  I think it's the same.  I don't think poly would work if taken upon haphazardly.  I think it needs a great awareness.

  No, I was simply stating that I didn't believe in polyamory/free-love. I didn't have anything against the notion of Inuit offering their wives to guests etc., I just wanted to make clear that there were more important reasons behind such activities than swinging.

    I too believe that groups like the Inuit need to get new genes added to the pool sometimes, not to mention it was so frigid there that it may save the guests life.  I imagine most of the guests were men, so it makes sense they shared their wives.  If women had been travelers instead, I bet they might have offered their husbands as blankets instead.  Not to mention, hopefully it gave fun to the spouse.  Fun should help make health.  It must get boring in isolated places sometimes.  Too much boredom would not be good for health.

 Pig's trotters, the feet as I recall. I think I had a couple of those in europe once or twice, pre-rpd diet in cooked form. At the time, I just loved the taste of all the globs of congealed fat on them. Now, I'd almost immediately vomit afterwards.

    Oh, thank you Tyler.  I got a trotter in a soup one time.  I didn't touch it.  It was at a restaurant.  I mis-read the foreign menu.  I thought I was ordering vegetables.  When I saw the pig foot as the main part of my soup bowl, I sent it back and I was confused and re-read the menu.  I had gotten one of the letters wrong and wasn't even familiar with their foot word.

    I have smelled a gelatin dish made freshly of feet at a place I worked.  I didn't like the dish, but it was heavily seasoned and I didn't like the seasoning to be paired with that dish.  The gelatin alone did not smell bad.  It was made from grassfed animals I believe.

    I think my grandmother made soup with feet, but I think she took them out before serving the broth.

I see. Yeah I read about that also but he's in Ontario. I'm in Montreal...

100% with you on this... it's (literally) making me sick.

    You can move to the right state or province, and get yourself well.  So SAD that people have to move because of unfounded laws, or be sick.  I guess there's always some sort of choice.

Yes, the relative I mentioned had very much the same colour. Well if it's related to grains-consumption or whatever,  then I fear it's an unhealthy trait for humans.

    I had a teenage friend who had blue and pastel yellow eyes.  They were pre-diabetic and smelled "sweet".  Otherwise were healthy.  They did eat wheat and eat commercial grainfed dairy, but not in front of me.  The mother was not big, ate those foods too, had breast cancer and gave birth only to very large newborns.  That didn't last for long though.  There were other health signs.  Looking back now, I know they needed raw meat.  I haven't talked with them recently.  Maybe I'll call.   

There's a photo on the web of kieba with Aajonus in Hawaii. Can't remember where, ah:-

http://www.bodytemplebootcamp.com/images/Aajonus-JohnWood-0811.jpg

There are plenty of others, just use google image.

    Googled.  Right on the same site.  With Kiebs also.  The same November visit.  I believe this was eight months after a very serious incident, I direct you to the accounting of injuries and recovery care, refusal of surgery etc.  I also saw him after the injuries, about three months later or four months before the photo.  Kieba practices her Retro Raw diet.  She eats raw meat, raw milk, raw fruit, raw green salad and up to twenty percent of her diet is steamed vegetables, pop corn and coffee (from what I have heard).  She wrote recipe books and sells them on raw foods, a book for adults, a book for children, etc.

    
    "Kieba and Aajonus Speaking at the Raw Game 2008 Kickoff"
    in the picture he is 61 +xmos she is literally about 50 y/o (they both started raw meat         after long close brushes with death)

    Sure, if you can eat a diet that gets you doing
 whatever exercises you want to, fine, do it.  In some situations you may need raw diet, but one that will work whether you exercise or not.  

    The Doug Graham all raw diet, you have to exercise or you will fail right away.  He charges $10,000USD/3wks water fasting, a good time to program you when your brain receives no glucose nor other energy.  

    With cooked meat you need extra exercise too.  

    With RAF based diet all raw exercise is easy but even without the exercise muscles grow and maintain.  

    Aajonus is busy fighting chemtrails, fighting for raw food rights for the US (as politicians act as tricksters over and over at opportune times to take them away), and he travels to several countries each year (it seems to me) and not "just for fun".  He also does experiments to learn more about raw foods and publishes it in newsletters, so if he prefers not to exercise, I excuse him.  He doesn't even try to make money on most of these things, from what I know.  

    Raw milk is made by mothers for babies that sleep more than adults that make hormones for growing.  That's what raw milk does, it gives certain energies that some people need for a time or prefer.  

    I don't suppose many of the people reading or responding to this have developed multiple stage four system cancers at the same time before taking up raw foods.  It's more than food that is needed to cure.  Some may feel better than curing themselves quickly than their roll is to help more people in whatever capacity they are set up to.  Each person has a different role.  Pretty much, it's all good (IMV).  

edit: changed months part of their ages to be more vague. @__:09 PM time 1/29/2010 Fri

Do you think it is worth it to relocate to the US for that reason alone?

    Depends on which state.  I know some states are referred to as "Nazi states" by the big raw milk farmers, as the laws are really ridiculous in some.

    You're in Canada, right?  Didn't milk farmer Mike Schmidt just win a big court case there, and he's still distributing milk?  I think I read something about it today.

    There are other fats anyway.  You should do fine on any grass grazed fat.  It doesn't have to be dairy cream, does it? 

    Dairy can be really expensive here.  Suet is much less expensive.  I just grate it, and mix it with chunks of meat.  It's your choice.  If you want dairy, pick a place where you can get it.

    I can't believe this "free world".  They tie us up trying to find edible food.  How evil is that?  Only those that can survive a while on cooked sick SAD food are free to eat.  They do this for our own good.  What would we do with abundant health?  That may be the question.

Do you live in California? It's the only state where you can buy raw dairy products in the US right?

    Every single US state has completely different dairy laws from the state next to it.

    Example:

ARIZONA

Summary:

Arizona permits the sale of raw milk and raw milk products as long as they carry the required warning label. Their sale can take place on the farm and in grocery stores. Farmers selling raw milk and cream must obtain a producer-distributor license. Selling other raw dairy products requires obtaining a producer-manufacturer license in addition. There must be state approved bottling equipment on the farm. There are currently two licensed farms selling raw milk and raw milk products in the state.

    I think there are twenty-eight US states where you can buy raw milk.  Very few of those can you buy it from a store.  There are "cow shares", religious exemptions etc.