Hello again all, this thread is regarding Ketosis and Ketones So if you are not interested I'll bid you a polite farewell for now .

One thing i have noted is that when people first enter Ketosis ( not Ketoacidosis which is Very different ) they end up becoming very sluggish or tired and unable to workout as hard or long as they used to and then decide that it's not for them. I think what it has to do with is modernization causing people to "trim the fat", in terms of what's really causing the root problem here.

The point of Ketosis is to burn fat, over carbs, for energy and depending on Ketones over glucose. However, people don't do the math right and till this day it still confuses me. Though it varies from person to person the rule of thumb is that LEAN MEAT is often very deficient in fat, although heavy in Protein. The problem with that is that your main energy source is Fat, as protein can only be broken down into glucose and only 58% of it can at that.

You can only use so much protein at a time though, before causing horrible distress to your body, which inevitably shows up over time if you don't get the balance correct.

Now let's get an example, you get a relatively fatty cut of beef and notice that the protein to fat ratio is something like we'll say ... 2 to 1. But read on, if you look at the CALORIC CONTENT, then read the Calories which are from Fat and you will see the TRUE ratio. Little amounts of fat are High in calories Because fats are VERY ENERGY DENSE so a little bit goes a long way.

 However, if attempting to achieve the benefit of Ketones over Glucose, Too much protein and not enough fat signals your body to make the protein into glucose, rather then focusing on its Nutrient capacity instead.

Therefore on a Caloric scale if one were to be in Ketosis, generally gained from low to zero carb lifestyles, one would need a Caloric content of at least about 60% from fat. If trying to build muscle you would not change the ratio, but you would only add in more calories always making sure to consume your FAT WITH your PROTEIN so as to make the protein more usable for what YOU want instead of Fuel in the form of Glucose.

Bottom line is, in the long run, Extra lean is counterproductive to Ketosis. The high caloric fat intake is what gives you untold amounts of expendable energy. You dont get nearly as tired if you watch your numbers and eat enough caloric fat in at LEAST a 60% fat - 37% protein, 3% carb ratio on a purely CALORIC scale; Or cut ALL the carbs and up the protein. This is also why, if you adapt an extra lean lifestyle, its important to have Other sources of fat like bone marrow, suet, straight up fat, Raw butter, virgin coconut products, etc. etc.

I posted this because I feel so bad for the bodybuilders who are dead tired and drained relying so heavily on protein and not enough on fat. I have experience with Ketosis and bodybuilding and I have trained with others who do it as well. Once they understand this and add this small tweak to their diet they almost Always notice an energy boost and higher capability. Be well all, and comment if you like farewell for now.

Edit: I wasn't saying the only factor in bodybuilding or exercise of any kind was just the caloric ratio. It indeed varies from person to person, and it takes the body, depending on the body, time to adapt to turning fat into energy. Its nowhere near as readily simple as I may have made it seem, I was only giving a general rule of thumb .

With that said, it seems like first time bodybuilders in Ketosis would benefit from starting with a slightly increased protein to fat ratio for the glucose, and then slowly up the fat to overcome it.

Hello again all. Recently i was doing a bit of everyday research and i found out more info about the grain-fed grass-fed, grain finished grass finished debate. Now its obvious to me that Grass fed cows have a better Omega 6 to Omega 3 ratio. They dont produce those evil strains of E.coli because their stomachs are not as acidity. And to some, they taste better too, although have less fat which is good to some but not everyone.

Also, unless it says no antibiotic used, many grass-fed or grass finished/both cows are fed antibiotics through their life. This is not because they need to kill stuff, but because when given in bulk anti-biotics have a steroidal effect which makes the cows huge, and since it Is a business this works out well for the sellers involved. But thats just a side note.

My solution to the many problems of fully grain fed beef ( illustrated here http://www.thekitchn.com/thekitchn/food-politics/grassfed-vs-grainfed-beef-whats-the-difference-and-why-does-it-matter-079032 among many other sites) would be to grass finish them.

This is because even after only 5 days of grass feeding, grain raised cows end up shedding almost all of the E.coli in their bodies, and instantly have better nutrient value as well. Since the finishing period is generally 90 days at Least, that would certainly be a compromise to the, fatten them up fast with corn ideology.

However, if that option is Not used, you will note that start to finish grass fed cows can cost Very large amounts of money to the average commoner, specifically here in America as its the only place I know of. So, if we are to be raw meat eaters, especially if you are the vlc or ZC variety ... and since grass fed from start to finish cows can takes literally years to harvest not to mention the shortage of grass in harsh winters with the need to buy large amounts of hay to supplement ... could the entire world subsist on even 50% beef as their choice of food if they were nothing but grass?

The bottom line is, before industry got hold of the Cow, the worlds ever-growing desire for meat, specifically beef, could never be satiated if we were to go back in time with our current bloodlust. So without the grain feeding strategy it seems it would be slim pickings. So are you all, the grass enthusiast, more interested in grass fed ... Or, does my above proposed grain-fed/grass finished work out better to you, as a compromise if more people were to jump on the raw paleo diet?

Thanks for the suggestion on Half the raw egg, I'll definitely have to give that one a try.

WoW ... that was quite an image ... shitting my brains out would be Very painful. Uh, might i ask why chicken is a tad different? I mean i thought the whole point was that if its raw and enzymes are intact, it is easy digestion.

So like ... why would i poop like a mad man and lose my brains? I guess the meats are different, and its a matter of me finding out what works for me and what doesnt i suppose. So yeah, I'll try it, and if I DO get wet, creamy, bubbly poo ... I wont freak out ... i'll just let it pass.

Edit: Man, of all the cool people i've met on this Forum, I wish Paleo Donk would post in my thread, I wanna meet ALL the awesome people! The ones i have met so far are amazing, but with a name like Paleo Donk ... ya just GOTTA grace my thread every Now and then eh?

Well ... I just got back from the meat market, and uhhh ... well i bought some pork top sirloins for cheap, Some beef liver, some Bone marrow bones very thick in marrow, some Boneless chicken thighs and breasts, Beef Shanks with the marrow filled bone intact, Some Fresh Eggs, And some pork back fat which is cured so not perfect but i'm not stressing over it as i'm already gonna be doing better than I was and the back fat is mainly just a garnish.

So ... i stored everything, froze half, refrigerated half ... uhhh ... well, gonna have Beef Shank tonight, going to Blue Rare it since its not grass fed, and then uhh ... eat it. Scared as all hell right now. Um ... about the marrow bones, do i fridge those and follow the sell by date? Or is it ok to freeze em cuz if i cant freeze em i have to eat them within 4 days.

Also how do i eat the stuff, I mean ... i cant very well Blue rare it ... right?

Edit: now i am reading that beef shank is not tender even if cooked, unless slow roasted for like 8 hours. In that case can i even eat it Raw or blue rared or would it be too tough for me?
I didn't really have a manual when i went out and the only beef I've ever eaten in my entire life, besides maybe 3 steaks and some liver as a kid, has been ground. Therefore I'm not so good with the cut choices, but it was cheap and if i can cut it into tiny pieces and swallow it whole I will.

However, my Wife wants her part medium rare or medium since she is not ready for blue rare or raw yet ... but i thought you could use a pan to cook dang near anything so i just figured i could cut it in half, figure out how to eat the marrow, and then blue rare my half while mediuming hers. Is that even friggin Possible with the meat being so tough? Or did i waste 6 dollars on two pounds of beef shank i cant even eat raw?

Following your advice, i just tried some dairy i normally eat, it was cheese, and when it hit my body it felt heavy and slightly unwelcome. I also tried some milk, guess what ... it didnt feel good when it hit my stomach. Also, even though i have been eating dairy my whole life, as a young boy i was Lactose intolerant. With close attention paid, it seems i may still be. Now that my body is more sensitive to what it wants and doesnt want as a result of zero carbing before my plunge today its easier to pay attention to. So there, no more dairy sources for me.

I also noticed the overcooked chicken i made tonight, before trying raw tomorrow and just getting over my fear of botulism, was unappealing and felt dead in my stomach. I am learning ... what SHOULD be basic things about myself. I will continue and eventually i hope to find a mealplan and lifestyle that fits me. I'll see how i take raw meat as well, if it is indeed enzyme rich nature should take its course and it should have little to no impact on my digestive system.

However, i did eat Raw eggs 2 days ago and though i felt pretty good, i was not hungry all day long and slightly bloaty. Was this because of the probiotics i took? Or am i simply not so good with eggs? One thing i have always felt amazing with is medium rare meats. I think thats a good indication that raw or close to raw might be good for me. My body hates fiber ( which is undigestable) and i feel full and bloaty when i eat non hydrogenated oil peanut butter.

I feel better when i eat, or Ate in the past, refined grains then when i ate whole wheat high fiber grains, i think this is because you cant digest insoluable fiber and refined grains have little to none. I still dont feel good with grains, just noting a difference there. SO there, i am paying attention, and it looks like in the end i may end up being a raw meat enthusiast!

Considering my natural instinct to drool over raw animal and/or raw meat as gross as it sounds, and rapid desire i've had even as a child to tear into the flesh ... it seems raw might be for me. So i'll give it a try, and see how I feel . All is not lost just yet ^_^.

ok, well i mean ... the Wild Caught, frozen salmon is in a bag in the freezer section of wal mart. There are alot of the same companies bags that dont say wild caught though so I think there is at least Some main distinction. Either way though, i'm interested in these other methods of preparation. I don't eat raw veggies for fear of E.coli from soil its been in.

My main thing is that i dont know what it feels like to get all my vitamins, which is what this is about right? I mean when you eat meat correctly and dont pwn it with high cooking temperatures or just plain eat it Raw instead, you keep the nutritional value intact. Meaning, vitamins, enzymes, or other healthy things. But since my goal is not so much to honor a particular lifestyle, but rather just be healthy i have a Very honest question to ask that i hope for unbiased responses to, and will ultimately decide this whole thing for me.

If i was to eat cooked food ( i fear botulism still which needs about 210 degress F for 25 minutes to kill, and lives In the meat and not outside of it.) then i would obviously lose out on alot of the nutrients and basically be mal-nourished. However, There are huge friggin body builders that eat cooked meats constantly, so the protein is obviously still usable to a certain degree, but i dont have enough science to understand that.

So lets say i Don't get enough protein or vitamins or enzymes from cooked foods, lets say they basically Suck. Here is my question, if i were to, in an obviously non pure paleo way, Take Supplemental vitamins that were professionally extracted from raw food source ( not those Crappy USP totally artificial things toted by the FDA ) and ready for digestion.
Then if i took raw cod liver oil for omega 3 fatty acids, DHA, ALA, and EPA which, remember, you buy these things monthly for way cheaper than an entire diet based on grass fed beef would be and they are actually not that expensive depending on where you go.
Then if i take well gained, trustworthy sources of probiotics to sort of mimic the good bacteria mentality of high meat.
Then, most importantly, if i took a good source of liquid Amino Acids/ Enzymes everyday to supplement for the ones i was losing by cooking, not overcooking which produces carcinogens, the meat. Then stayed away from sugars/grains and large amounts of carbs ...

Would i rule out the need for a raw meat diet? I realize this may be a controversial question for this forum, though i truly hope it wont be viewed negatively because this seems the best place to ask it as well. But if i were to do all the above mentioned things i can Speculate i would get the same things ... but I ask because honestly i have been studying this now no less than 11 hours a day for about 3 days and still can't get all these answers without bias involved.

HAHA! Research has helped me! So! it seems raw fish does not have nearly the same amount of potentially lethal bacterial strains that land animals do! And i can get it frozen, though sadly they tend to take off the skin when its frozen.

But hell, raw fish is what the Inuit thrived on and if its a matter of getting high fat sources i can eat coconut meat.

Raw fish is NOT cheap here in Ohio, but at least the salmon is only 4 bucks a pound. Tilapia is 3 bucks a pound but not as beneficial as salmon but thats a whole nother bit of research. I mean still, its cheaper than grass fed beef. And shoot man, if i need to, i been meaning to relocate anyways so lol, I'll just freakin move to Massachusetts for cheap fish whenever the heck i want it!

Whenever I want grass fed beef i can buy it, but sparingly. Ha, i'm not scared of Fish! Woo. Wild caught salmon, wild caught fish in general. Frozen sure, but raw? Hell yeah.

In Response to KD, Its nice to know that there isn't really a perfect way to go about this. Bottom line is to do what i can and retain caution as a significant factor in my choices. With grain fed ground, freezing may cause the need for patience but i guess i wouldn't have to freeze it for long to pwn the potential E.Coli. So i will take your heed and be patient.

Edit: Oh, Damn it ... -_- "E.coli 0157:H7 At a Glance

The bacteria E.coli 0157:H7, also known just as 0157, is a rare but dangerous type of E.coli. It lives in the intestinal tracts of mammals and man. Some cattle carry the bacteria. It can be transferred from animal to animal, animal to man, from animal to man on food and from person to person through close contact or food.

NOTE: 0157 can survive refrigeration and freezer storage. If present, it can multiply slowly even at 44 F. Thorough cooking to 160 F is the best safeguard against infection."

A side note, i just read a forum that was referenced to me here, and there is a woman there who buys and immediately consumes raw grain-fed ground beef. Yet i heard ground beef was dangerous if you dont grind it yourself and she doesn't even freeze the stuff first lol. At what point is the need for caution exaggerated and at what point is it accurately verified? I mean it would help me loads if i were able to eat it ground considering the fats are easier to chew and its cheap as hell. And Since mah tough guy advisor, Savage, eats grain fed ground beef it encouraged me to do it also.

The only reason i ask this is because Freezing meats takes time, and i dont want to have to wait for my first bit of meat. I plan to freeze eventually to store in bulk but i want to eat the first batch as soon as i get it home.

So instead of buying ground beef, and then freezing it right away, i'd love to just be able to pick the stuff up and suck it down. But with the way westerners pwn the meat before we get it i'm sure i can jump straight into it without having to freeze it. I am so psyched honestly either way, Tomorrow I try my first Raw flesh! IT WILL BE A DAY OF RECKONING FOR ALL!!! ( Not really, just for me, but I'm Still PSYCHED!!!)

So, my whole life i have been able to ingest grains or high amounts of sugar/carbs yada yada. However, as many of you know i started a no grain/no or incredibly small amount (20g or less) carb, high fat/protein diet. I started it about a week ago, i felt changes, some were painful but overall my body did feel more regular.

Today, i had a relapse and ended up getting a pizza from Little Caesars with my wife. We ate it and it tasted so good but oddly enough ... after the Very first slice i started to feel bloated and full. It was the weirdest thing in the world, as i could eat a whole pizza to myself only a week ago.

However, like a drug addict, i continued to eat it and uhh ... yeah. My stomach is killing me, i feel like crap because I am pretty good at paying attention to my body. I have anal leakage from the mucous being created in my body thats trying to push the grains out of me. And i have had gas and been burping all day. That was 5 hours ago.

Let me also mention that i bought a soda with the meal, it has high fructose corn syrup in it ... Ladies and gentleman thats ALSO a grain lol. Not to mention the high sugar content ... and everytime i take a sip of it, including 5 minutes ago ( i need to throw it away because i keep forgetting and sipping ) I immediately bloat and begin to feel like crap.

So there you have it ... relapse is bad. Dead animal is good, not too dead of course. I will take this as encouragement to get back on my diet and Not ever do that painful experience again lol. Thanks for listening all , farewell for now.

Ah i see heheh, seems i still have quite a bit to learn before i go rushing into everything. The purity of the raw foodists lifestyle is in the lack of processing or treating. I suppose in that case i'll have to basically cleanse my brain of what i was raised on and accept this new mentality. I will admit i am scared to death of getting sick, but i wont let that fear stop me from seeing how far I can go with this and at least trying it. I already don't touch grain and take enzyme/amino acid supplements and well made cod liver fish oil everyday, and eat sea kelp for its massive mineral and vitamin category.

However, i've only been doing the above stated for about 1 week. Therefore i cant tell much of a difference just yet. I still have so many questions and so many misunderstandings you know? I am genuinely weighed down with a sense of confusion about health in general. I know if i ever get sick i'll grab a chunk of high meat instantly because i believe in its healing properties, much like the probiotics i take i'd guess.

But the thing that keeps hitting me in the face is, why is it that people are able to be relatively healthy with moreso, not fully, cooked foods; living to be 90 or older without eating raw meat or animal fat. I think whats getting me is my stupid question, what is THE way to live, but it seems smarter for me to assume there are Many ways to live. 

I am an overweight guy, at about 312 pounds, i am not a couch potato as i move around loads and used to bodybuild constantly so i'm still able to bench my own weight and do straneous exercise. However, I fear getting diabetes soon and am always tired and lethargic which is why i stopped the grains/sugars or carbs. Then i get jealous when i see people who are much older living happy lives who dont deny themselves carbs or grains/sugars. In the end i am miserably pissed off, some say its exercise that does it, others say its lifestyle and food choice or a mix of both.

I think i am trying to find a formula to lose the weight, gain more energy, and be happier with how i feel. I guess when i compare a no carb/grain/low sugar lifestyle with my crazy "eat whole wheat its good for you" entire life brainwashing ... i should feel amazing soon once my body gets good at converting fat to energy. But after upping my protein and fat i hear they can be overcooked and how they are dangerous/worthless and so i jumped to this new to me idea of raw, and it starts all over again.

In the end, it seems the questions i have for this life are taxing and incredibly personal, as well as hard to answer. So many X-factors and impossible genetic coding ... it tends to drive me to insanity. But either way, i am going to give this raw meat a try. Who knows, i may feel amazing and shed pounds, but i may also be an unlucky booger who just sucks in this aspect of life. As always, thanks for the info, i'll give it a shot as soon as i can.