I realize this forum is not what I suspected. The paleo diet does not include a vegan approach. So I'm leaving for good. I still believe in an all raw vegan approach, though I don't discredit the use of animal products as being helpful for some. Sometimes it might be what the body needs for healing, etc. I just don't see it as a long term thing.

I may just be on another level. Just because it's rare to see a raw vegan who practices a good diet does not mean it's not possible. There are many ways/approaches to raw veganism, obviously other than what's popular.

Regards

interestingly I also read somewhere that replacing saturated fats with PUFAS seems heart healthy.
http://www.bidmc.org/YourHealth/HealthResearchJournals.aspx?ChunkID=487731

Im sure though that is just a generalization, as they haven't tested out all the variations of intakes of fats one can have. I think saturated fats can be healthy if raw. Even animal meat,but it's probably like comparing apples to oranges in terms of health effects. If you can do a raw vegan diet correctly it can be done. I just don't agree with how some people say that ALL PUFAS are bad (and veganism is bad, etc.) when all I've read about them are things about the omega 3/6 ratio, their relation to how unsoaked/unsprouted nuts contain lectins and such. Macronutrient ratios, lack of exercise, nutritional deficiencies based on the toxicity of an ignorant modern way of life and all the 'non-foods' in cooked vegan 'foods'. All of these factors can be modified to make an optimal fat intake from these plant foods if one could live in a community that supported this way of life, and the people in it all worked together to make it happen. Not much research has been done on raw food diets.

Even sprouting has been found to reduce lectins/antinutritional factors up to 100% depending on how long one sprouts,the nutrients given, etc. Sure some or in fact most people might still have sensitivities , but that's genetic. Our human ancestry was almost all omnivorous. It could take some work to make sure the next generation doesn't have these sensitivities if one works at it. I think sprouting is a God sent.

I forget to mention the Hippocrates Institute. My latest inspiration - all the people associated with the Hippocrates Institute. I now consider it essential to become a sproutarian. It does take work, but communities can live this way, self sustainably.

Robert Morse is another I've become recently interested in and he  shows how fruits are not all that bad. Its just when it is consumed in excess,and/or when it's taking place of other essential nutrients. It's a bit extreme. Though most of the fruitarians that are all about 100% fruit and nothing else it seems like they don't want to accept that humanity has evolved now to live in communities. We no longer have to live as nomads, living in seasons that fruit may not even be available at the times. We now have to learn to live self sustainably. I kind of see the same mindset in meat eaters and even raw meat eaters. Of course we may have a genetic predisposition but that doesn't mean it can't be worked around.

David Jubb is another leader in the raw food movement, and I'm very impressed in a lot of the things he says.

So I'm not saying raw meat eating is wrong. I'm sure one can live healthily. Though I simply choose to not want to kill animals to eat. I would only do so to survive if I can't do anything else. otherwise,if it's not necessary, why do it?

My Last reply: I dont take supplements. Only b12 and vitamin D. Maybe at the Tree of Life a lot of people have take supplements. I figure they were only recommendations and usually for people with diseases or deficiencies at the time. It's an institute for cleansing. But I assure you, you can do it with minimal supplements like seriously only b12 if you can deal with it and get enough sun for vitamin D. The other thing he mentions is DHA, but I dont know if he can believe that if we stay within the ratio of 4:1-1:1 omega 6-3 the body will provide for it enough DHA.

RawZi: Kidneys... hm I didn't know RAFD could really help the kidneys. I dont understand why a vegan diet couldn't help the kidneys, if the fats/proteins are raw, and one takes care not to have extra carbs/proteins it's supposed to be good for the kidneys. The animal fats thing: if one just takes care for the omega 3s shouldn't one be fine? And of course sprouting/soaking nuts seeds to get rid of lectins and converting less usable and/or crude forms of fats to more easily digestible fats. Raw fats are SO important, doesn't matter where you get it from. Cholesterol is supposed to be made in the body. If for some reason a person cannot make enough because of genetics (high dependence on external sources of cholesterol/saturatd fats?) then saturated fats are good for that. Saturated fats are harder to get on a plant based diet but there are options--and only if you eat high fat. The body also makes saturated fat. If one needs saturated fats (some people actually need them more than others) you've got coconuts, macadamias, brazil nuts etc (those last ones if eaten in larger quantity).

Goodsamaritan, not all religious/spiritual peoples are like that, not all are fearful of reproduction, even the vegans.

Simple because you are trying to make me look weaker than you with your harsh words while I'm being calm doesn't mean I'm "fearful". And I've never said I ate meat.

I simply took Paleo for being a simple branch term that could mean any kind of diet that reflects a primitive diet not, a specific diet.

For the 'veganism is harmful' comment, I obviously disagree. If you're talking about simple b12 deficiency that's no reason to discount veganism as b12 comes from fermentation and we've simply lost our ability to ferment it in our systems... besides that our society does not live quite as naturally like we did back in the ancient days. What if by living naturally we can get this function back?

Vitamin k2? I don't worry about that, greens have a Ton of vitamin k, and as long as your gut flora is healthy I wouldn't worry about not having enough k2. Again another product of fermentation, and enzymatic reaction.

If veganism is so wrong why even listen to a vegan such as Gabriel Cousens then?

as for the aging factor like glycation products, well as you said also, high carb diets lead to these kinds of things. Gabriel Cousens finds a way to minimize that by moderating carbs, and fats when necessary.

I'm done with this forum. if this is what is represented as a paleo diet: a person who cannot even deal with others who don't share the same opinion as you, I'd rather not be a part of this.

You didn't even try to point out any faults, and try to provide info as to why you think "I'm wrong", instead you chose to insult me. I would have actually been interested.

yea,again.. I'm not attacking anyone here, why would you want to attack me?

Just because you think durianrider has trolled these forums or even some people from his 30bananasaday have come on here to troll these forums too, it doesn't mean every raw vegan here is the same.

I for one disagree with just how most of these fruitarians are always coming on to the forums with the goal to dominate and ridicule every non-fruitarian in all the raw forums. Not all of us are the same.

lol only one I know of is jicama.

Wouldn't grains/beans be better than tubers eaten raw?

And of course sprouted.

But don't nuts upset this omega ration completely?

And your digestion is working fine with such meals??

Löwenherz

Yea. It just takes some planning with the meals, ie food combining.

As for the nuts and upsetting the omega 3-6 balance: it doesn't upset it if you combine it with flaxseeds/chia seeds in the right proportion.

Look if you go on nutritiondata.com and make a recipe, of lets say, how many nuts you can have in a day... and I eat a calorie restricted diet also. make a "recipe" where you will have lets say a cup of whatever nut you want. I'll say pumpkin seeds, sprouted of course but nutritiondata.com doesn't have the info on that so I use regualar 1 cup of pumpkin seeds to just 1/4 cup of flax (4 tablespoons) and the ratio of omega 3 to 6 is roughly 1:3-1:4. So it's still in good range. Of course you dont even have to have a cup of pumpkin seeds.

It's not a good recipe I know, it's not even meant to be a recipe. it's just a function I use on nutritiondata.com to see how much nuts I can have in a day combining it all together, with chia/flaxseeds so I can maintain the ratio of 1:1 to 1:4 omega 6 to 3s.

As far as I have read.. it seems the whole thign about nuts/seeds being bad is that they can contain a lot of omega 6s, and when unsprouted, lots of antinutrients/lectins/hemagluttinins/enzyme inhibitors, etc. I think even sprouting might alter the ratio of any other "poorly rationed" nutrients contained within.

So, if I can just portion my meals accordingly are nuts/seeds really that bad?

unfortunately this is where I stray from "paleo". I only really follow it where it comes to the macronutrient ratio. But I am all for the use of technology like agriculture, sprouting, etc. I mean really, I think evolution occured for a reason so I'm ok with agriculture. Besides it brings humans together to live in society. When you soak/sprout seeds they become superior foods, there's no doubt about that. Legumes might still contain some of their indigestibility if eaten in excess. That's why only mung, adzuki and lentils are best to sprout and eat raw. I mean really we don't need that much.  same with nuts/seeds. If you keep each to handful portions it's not bad. Greens (focus on the baby greens and the non-goitrogenic) /veggies/microgreens/leafy sprouts on the other hand are really good to have as much as you want. Veggies less so.

Making preparations I try not to use too many preparations, especially like using a blender. Better to grind in some way with less frictional heat. Same with juicing. I don't use too many oils. I think it's only good for special cases like medicinally or to supplement. Maybe even the once in a while gourmet dish. Same with butters or ground food.

Fermented foods are good.

As for supplements, I dont use supplements. All I use is b12 and vitamin D when I'm deficient. As for the others who used lots of supplements: that's them. I'd say it's probably because they might make use of the supplements due to their ailments."Colonics for all the high fats intake".. well the food at the Tree of Life Insitute is gourmet. I don't have problems with digestion though I have run into them when I either eat too much fats first before eating the veggies, too many spices, not enough water and don't follow proper food combining principles.
Coffee had also made it worse for me, but when I stop that my digestion goes back to normal.

IMO yea maybe there's too much fat, and/or too little carbs at the Tree of Life institute. But if one sticks to eating simple without as much preparation aside from agricultural techniques like sprouting you won't be getting in too much of the fats or carbs. Just eat the food as is. Drying might be ok. Sun drying is best.

On nov. 19 Gabriel Cousens will broadcast live another series and focus on how a person can succeed on a diet of 30-50% fat.

oh yes as for some that do high fruit and succeed, it really depends on your lifestyle. Dr. Morse is really good with his advice on using fruits although I don't agree on some points, like being totally 100% fruit. Though I agree that fruits can be healing and can be good for detoxing. So I use a mixture of the principles in the Hippocrates diet, Gabriel Cousens' Rainbow Greens.

Soon though I'll be lookin up what David Jubb and Robert Morse has to see.

The above I believe are the top people in the raw food movement when it comes to the advice.