I also believed he was full of it, but right on some things. And as time goes by I keep discovering that he was right about more and more things. So now my default position is that he was right on just about everything, until proven otherwise. The only claim I really can't get behind is the spontaneous generation.

Let me tell what the shortcut is. If most or all of the longtime raw foodies here agree with something about nutrition, it's almost certainly true. The consensus knowledge here is far more reliable than any one guru.

There's a reason so many of us hang around here for so long. It's because we've discovered the value of this place's consensus knowledge.

Psychotherapy and meds are notoriously useless, and are often very dangerous. One serious possibility other than what I recommended above would be cognitive behavioural therapy.

I was actually including all such methods under the larger umbrella of "psychotherapy". I think that, in fact, CBT, as well as the method Eve mentioned, would generally be defined as forms of psychotherapy.

But it's a moot point. These people seem to be from a culture that would not tolerate or relate to any such methods.

Brings up a huge quandary in the livestock world: the tradeoff between quality and quantity. Yes, if you feed animals food that allows them to make higher quality eggs or meat, odds are they will make less of it. On the flip side, if you feed them so as to maximize egg (or meat, or milk) production, you won't end up with as high quality an end product.

Reminds me of a grass farmer I worked with a few years ago in the US northeast who ran a purportedly 100% grass fed dairy. After a few years I asked to see his production rates, and saw his herd of ~70 milkers was producing on average about 19,000 pounds of milk per cow per year, which is good for a grain fed dairy in this area but so high as to be nearly unheard of for a grass-based dairy. Needless to say, after a few conversations with him he finally let on that he wasn't really 100% grass fed and was feeding his cows grain every day to supplement their forage. He kept his stash of grain hidden so that when the buyer (I think he was selling to Horizon's 100% grass fed label) visited they wouldn't see it and so he was always able to pass his inspections.

And the more extreme the profit motive, the more extreme the deceptions will be. Farmers aren't exactly rich, and our society is not exactly going out of its way to help them survive. *shrug*

Gross

I raised chickens and ducks on trays or green spouted grains and seeds for years,, lots of work.  The ideal scenario would be do find a way, an Easy way, to raise bugs for them.     You can cover moist ground and discover all sorts of bugs that move in,, however everything I could think of is toxic, like plastic, and plywood, etc..

I think the black soldier fly larvae method is probably the easiest. Wasn't Eve doing that at one point? And Dorothy was talking about doing it.

I wonder why the intake of blood or no blood, or dry versus fresh meats makes no difference as to your water intake sabertooth, since blood is 92% water and fresh meat is probably around 85% water and the dry aged meat is probably 45% water or even lower.

I also wonder if there is truth to the idea that if one needs to clease the body of a substance that is normally eliminated through urine, that one needs more water to increase urine volume. It could also be that our body could just increase the concentration in the urine of whatever wasteproduct or toxin is being eliminated, without a need for increased volume.

Is anyone aware of carnivores such as lions consuming water in vast amounts? I know lions will gather at the watering hole during the summer, but I was under the impression that they were there mainly if they haven't caught any prey recently, to replenish their fluids, and because they are waiting for prey who eat dry grass and thus are forced to drink large amounts of water.

Most mammal carnivores, such as felines and canines, don't even have the ability to suck in water with their lips. Instead they must wet their tongue on the water and bring a small amount back up. This to me suggests that drinking water in vast amounts is probably not something they would normally do, but I could be mistaken.

Traditional Inuit drink very large amounts of water. So does every VLC or ZC person that I know of, unless they are drinking a water-based beverage instead.

Stefansson lived among the Inuit for an extended period, and confirmed that they drink a great deal of water. Have you looked into Stefansson's work?

Are you kidding me?

This is the primal diet section of the forum.

Thats exactly what this place is.

Those categories are 10 years old. We've just never changed them, but ALL the long-term members who experiment with raw dairy end up regretting it. I use it from time to time, but generally have to stop after a few months, because the allergic reactions get too bad. It's just reality. Just because you want it to work doesn't mean it actually works.

I'm not saying I WILL use it to embarrass you later. I'd just like to have the option, you know?

When you disagree with the local consensus here, YOU are the one expected to provide evidence. Don't like it? Find somewhere else to troll.

To give me a stack of 50,000 posts most of whos information is totally irrelevant to a question being discussed is not proper presentation of evidence.

I did the work. What's stopping you?

Psychopathy (/sa??k?p??i/), also known as sociopathy (/so?si??p??i/), is traditionally defined as a personality disorder characterized by persistent antisocial behavior, impaired empathy and remorse, and bold, disinhibited, egotistical traits.

you are on the biggest bandwagon of all, the germ theory bandwagon.

I'm on no such bandwagon. I simply admit the truth is more complex than either side admits. I am comfortable staying open on the issue and using my common sense to guide my daily life as regards germ exposure. I'm anything BUT a germaphobe, I never wash my produce, and I eat plenty of high fish. Aggghhh. Shut UP about this.

And as regards psychopathy, I was just telling my wife that I feel bad about hurting your feelings, but that you are so aggressive in so many threads that I don't know how else to handle you. Being gentle with you would be far too exhausting, something I'm sure your mother can relate to.

The evidence I present is the accumulated consensus knowledge from the long-term members of this forum. All you have to do is read 50,000 posts or so, should only take you about 6 months if you devote 2-3 hours a day.