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Messages - Erasmus

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1
Journals / Re: Lex's Journal
« on: September 27, 2008, 06:20:40 am »
Yes, Charles confirms that the recovery time is longer on zero carb meat and water.  But at the same time, he finds that less exercise is required to maintain fitness.  Charles only runs twice per week.  He doesn't jog.  I believe he does mostly interval work.  He also lifts twice per week, but he has been running alot of races lately, so he has not lifted for several weeks in a row.  He found that even after going several weeks without lifting, there was no loss of strength.  Charles is in his early 40's.

Yeah, no sooner than I posted, I popped over and saw those posts.  However I believe his point is more about muscle rebuild and over training rather than one of fuel.  Of course it really doesn't matter WHY you need to wait 3 days if 3 days is what you need to wait.  The only valid reason to find out for sure is if you wanted to optimize your training.  In this case (Lex's) and in fact most cases the training is for general conditioning so "optimizing" is not needed.  And, I suspect, optimizing is probably bad as it most likely comes at the expense of something else, the general health.  Probably.  ;)

-E

2
Journals / Re: Lex's Journal
« on: September 26, 2008, 07:32:32 am »
Have any of you younger folks who have transitioned to mostly meat found that your recover period between intense periods of activity has been affected by your dietary change? 

I have no personal experience to add here. But it seems you could test this out very easily by using the much advertised glycogen reloading window and having a "sports drink".  I would think that a single test would be enough to know based on your rather dramatic decline in jogging ability, assuming it is due to "fuel" that is.

Charles over at Jimmy Moore's forum doesn't seem to have your issue though.  He eats the same as you except that he cooks it.  He is, I think, a good 10 to 15 years younger than you.  He runs half-marathons.  I'm not a member over there so I can't post, but I'm sure there are more than few that read this thread that CAN post your question over there to get his response.  Maybe even that Jeff guy who is everywhere.  ;)

-E

3
Journals / Re: Lex's Journal
« on: September 20, 2008, 02:34:20 am »

E., how did you know I've been lurking about?   Indeed, I have been.

Because this is WAY too interesting and informative a thread for you let go by.

OK, actually I just lost track of all places I keep seeing you and assumed you were here too.  ;D

-E

4
Journals / Re: Lex's Journal
« on: September 10, 2008, 04:09:30 am »
I've eaten at Greenfields, Roda Vida (no longer in business), and Amazon (in Fullerton) and all their food is quite salty.  May I offer an alternative?  I'll take you and your wife to Wood Ranch.  I think their steaks are better than Ruth Chris, Gulliver's, Morton's, or any other high-end steak house.  Last time I went I had two 16oz ribeyes, and a full rack of Baby Back ribs.  I was a major topic of conversation among the staff at that visit. No one had ever eaten that much food before, much less all meat.  One of the issues with the Brazilian BBQs is that I can't order the meat rare.  At best it's medium well.  I much prefer my beef as rare as possible.

A valid point about the well-doneness.  Being a BBQ fan, I forgot about that point.  Though you can get to med-rare if you limit yourself to the larger hunks of meat and have the servers bring the spit to you before they would normally put it back on the fire.  But enough of that silliness, better that Ruths Chris you say?  I think I could forgo the salt experiment. :)  I'm sure I could talk the GF into a steak outing.  At the very least it would stop her from pestering me for yet more steak.  You see we only eat it 3 or 4 times a week.  I'll get back to you when the schedule lightens up.  It would seem the GF will be out of commission due to a surgery late this month.  Nothing serious, just annoying.


I'm no longer convinced that paleo humans ate as much plant material as we've been lead to believe.  Take a look at this link: http://www.biblelife.org/woman7700.htm  and 7,000 years was not all that long ago.  I have no idea if there is anything further on this subject, however, it is interesting that the idea that humans have always included significant amounts of plant foods, especially seasonal fruits, in their diet, is seldom challenged.  If the information in the above link is accurate, then maybe we are really top level carnivores and not omnivores at all. 

I have no doubt that we are top level carnivores.  But by the same token, I have no doubt that we ate whatever we could.  This would in part explain why we exist everywhere.  In the wild, most animals eat whatever they can just to survive.  Plants, I suspect specifically tubers, would have provided survival rations when game was sparse.  Then there is the whole sweet tooth thing.  Nature is not one to be frivolous.  Of this is all conjecture.  Just like all the other "experts".

Think about our pets.  Today we routinely feed our dogs and cats commercial pet food that is comprised mostly of grains.  Because they've eaten grain based food from the time they were weaned, know no other food, often reject raw meat in favor of the more familiar grain based food, and don't immediately die from eating a diet of grains, does this prove that dogs and cats are vegetarians?    How is this different from the environment that we humans are raised in today?  We grow up eating grain based foods from the time we are weaned, we don't know anything else, and we pass the same dietary aberrations on to our children generation after generation after generation.

I'm well aware that cats and dogs occasionally chew on grass, but if you observe their feces, you'll find that it passes through undigested.  The total amount of grass consumed is such a small part of their diet that is is almost unmeasurable in terms of volume or weight and truly infinitesimal as percent of calories.

I feed my dogs raw meat.  My GF really enjoys the uh... sound of bones being crunched. :)  They are absolutely healthier and happier on raw.  They would probably be even better off if I were to use Slankers and the like.  But I go through 4 pounds of food a day, they'll make due on commercial critters. 

Like most raw food feeders, I am very well acquainted feces.  So much so that I pay attention to the stuff I find on our walks.  Coyote scat often contains berry seeds when the are available.  And "theBear" not withstanding, canids are more carnivore than we are.  Does it amount to a lot of calories? No.  But it does show that carnivores will eat what they can.  Why wouldn't we?

If we reject the premise that humans are omnivores, and adopt the idea that we may have evolved as top level carnivores, then why would we want to eat carbs at all, unless our meat supply were to disappear and it becomes a matter of survival?  Food for thought.....

I hate the term omnivore.  It's a silly thing.  If you go out into the woods a look around, nearly everything you see is edible by something.  And yet 99% of all of that "food" is completely inedible to us.  1% is hardly "omni" in my book.  Nope, we are carnivores plain and simple. 

As to why we should eat carbs?  In a vacuum we shouldn't.  But we don't live in a vacuum as you pointed out.  All I was saying was that if we want to go with the flow socially, then it might be best to keep our bodies in a state that the occasional social gathering doesn't make us pay the price for good week afterward.  Your symptoms were hardly mild.  And as bad as you felt on the outside I'm sure the inside was taking a beating as well.  The real questions are, "how much is enough?" and "is that too much to be worth it?".  As for the first, I have no idea.  The second, well that's a personal call.

-E

5
Journals / Re: Lex's Journal
« on: September 09, 2008, 03:09:50 am »
I agree with Lex about the social nature of foods and feeding.  I have been often labeled as "high maintenance" when I opted simply not to eat.  This was always without complaint on my part.  People always felt obligated to adjust to my "needs" even though I was VERY CLEAR that they should do no such thing. So even asking for NOTHING is a burden to a lot of people.  In fact nothing is the one thing I'm not allowed to have on my birthday here in the office.  Goofy. 

On to the carb consequences that Lex reports.  I absolutely believe everything Lex reports.  Still, I have a hard time wrapping my mind around the severity of his reactions when going off the reservation.  While there are most certainly confounding factors, it seems to me he has covered most of them to make his claim that is primarily due to what is essentially a bad diabetic reaction.  It's rather disturbing.  And his warning should listened to.  There more than a few of us out there that are VERY LOW carb, but not Lex's ZERO carb.  I wonder if we (the VLCers)  are holding on to sufficient carb processing reserve to avoid Lex's reactions.  Or at least his severity. At 8 months in, I suspect I am still too early to test that out.  But Jeff, who I believe is lurking about, has been VLC for long enough I think to make a valid test of it.  Of course the LA County fair is on right now, it would be real easy for me to a carb out just see where I stand right now, funnel cake and deep fried snickers, for science you understand.  ;D 

Lex,
  I make you an offer, just to help eliminate the salt thing completely for MY mind, my girlfriend and I would be happy to have you and your wife as our guests to dinner at Greenfields Brazilian BBQ in West Covina.  Any time that fits your dietary experiments is fine, preferably after the fair later in October or even in November.  Besides what what would be I'm sure a stimulating and informative dinner conversation, I really want to see a skinny guy put a real hurt on the "all you can eat" experience.  ;D

Lex,
 I also think you are wrong about how long it would take adapt to carbs to avoid your symptoms.  We keto adapt at least most of the way in as little as a week.  Sure it takes quite a bit longer to FULLY adapt, but I shouldn't think full adaption would be needed to deal with the carbs adequately.  It doesn't quite make sense in a paleo world where I'm certain we would have seasonal carb ups well in advance of what you did.  In temperate climate there would be periodic fruit explosions where I'm sure we would have eaten till we popped.  It's a lot easier to hunt fruit.  Perhaps in those climates we have also supplemented hunting with various tubers and such thus keeping us ready for the seasonal sugar fest.  I don't know.   Of course there is also the BG rise that you get while on meat only.  That would make it seem that you are at least a bit in the game of processing carbs.  Lots of questions still unanswered.  I'm sure there are lots questions left unasked. 

At least for now, it seems the best course for the zerocarber is to periodically (such period, yet to be determined) have sufficient carbs to keep the metabolism ready to successfully handle the occasion social event.  Assuming of course it doesn't knock you off the wagon that is.

-E

6
Journals / Re: Lex's Journal
« on: September 08, 2008, 07:38:59 am »
Lex, I'm really glad you posted on this follow up experiment.  I was just about to ask about your insights on the whole caf ordeal. 

While I fully believe that you are correct to a point about carb adaption, I can't help but thing that another common item is salt.  Salt would account for the thirst and the fluid retention as well.  In fact probably more so as carb based fluid retention is should be in the muscle and liver due to glycogen but salt would raise all fluids. 

-E

7
Journals / Re: my so called journal
« on: September 05, 2008, 11:42:30 pm »
Been doing good but I'm having a little trouble including too much carbs with my meat mix. The blending fruit in thing is turning into a problem it seems. Without it though the meat mix tastes very boring and is not appealing.

Speaking as the voice of zero experience...  ;D

Rather than mix your fruit in, which does sound problematic, why not try making your meat mix a "spread" that you put onto fruit "crackers".  I would think that crisp pears or apples cut into planks would hold quite a bit of meat.  Raw Paleo canapes!  Throw a party!  Invite the neighbors!

-E

8
Journals / Re: Lex's Journal
« on: September 05, 2008, 11:31:06 pm »
I've seen those propane flame throwers they use out doors for deep frying turkeys and the like.  They don't look as though safety is the first consideration in their design.  Considering my expertise (or lack thereof) I'd probably burn the house down if I tried to use one of those.  I much prefer the flameless approach of induction.

Yeah, I was at a medieval recreationist event some years ago and I tripped on a turkey fryer that was at full temp ready for the bird.  It very nearly dumped on me.  Even without the turkey in it, some of the oil hit sloshed out.  The last thing I wanted to do that day was to explain to the ER docs WHY I was dressed up all medieval and boiled in oil.   ::)   

For all of you raw foodists I guess you can add this to your list why raw is better and cooked food is "dangerous".   ;D

-E

9
Journals / Re: Lex's Journal
« on: September 05, 2008, 04:12:20 am »
Wow.  DI water and iron based cookware?  Don't you find the DI water a bit corrosive?  I figured you were cooking in glass, if for no other reason than someone that goes to the trouble of getting REALLY clean water would opt for REALLY clean cooking vessels. :)

With a top grade induction unit the advantage of the lab hotplate is mostly nullified.  But if you like to make sauces...  it's really cool to have that third hand do the stirring all the while being able to PRECISELY heat the stuff.

Myself, I've got gas.  Your chocolate thing requires my 1/4 inch slab of aluminum I keep around for such occasions.  ;)  I got you beat on the 5 gal water boil thing, but I gotta go outside to do it.  I've got a portable propane restaurant grade wok burner.  Now that's a party!  :)

Induction would be easier...

About the tap water. I thought Norwalk pulled it's water from the San Gabriel river aquifer.  That *should* be relatively clean and tasty.

-E

10
Off Topic / Re: Kung Fu Hustle
« on: September 04, 2008, 01:38:46 am »
Yes.  Great flick. 

-E

11
Journals / Re: Lex's Journal
« on: September 04, 2008, 01:35:58 am »
Lex, I'm a bit surprised to read that you drink DI water.  I find that the stuff "tastes" awful.  Do you add salts back to make it have whatever mineral balance you prefer?  This opens up, like a thousand questions.  :)

You continue to amaze me.  I thought I was extravagant to consider getting a magnetic stirring hotplate for the kitchen.  I haven't done it yet, but you really kind of shame me into doing it.  lol.

-E

12
Journals / Re: Lex's Journal
« on: August 28, 2008, 06:32:30 am »
Erasmus,
Not sure exactly what you mean by this, nor am I sure that anything conclusive related to the body's use of protein could really be measured effectively by the simple tools I have available.

First, I believe that the protein I eat is digested, broken down into amino acids, and then circulated throughout the body via the blood stream.  As the amino acids flow around and through the various tissues, any specific amino acids needed at the cellular level will be pulled out of the bloodstream and used by the cells for repairs, cellular division, or whatever cells may do with the various amino acids.  I would expect the amount of amino acids used directly by tissues to be relatively small and even if it doubled (due to damage caused by exercise or whatever means) I doubt that it would be enough to measure via the tests I have at my disposal.

Any amino acids not used by the various body tissues will ultimately be circulated through the liver where some portion (and here I suspect that it is only certain specific amino acids) is converted to glucose.

Part of my reasoning here is that damaged tissue is broken down by the body and the protein is recycled.  Also, the body can easily sacrifice its own lean muscle mass that is not seen as important (read seldom used) to help provide the necessary building blocks to repair and build tissues that are seen as more important.  In my case, jogging uses lower body muscles more than upper body muscles so the upper body of runners tend to atrophy and waste away as the lower body muscles become more toned - hence runner's physique.

There are swings in BG that I occasionally encounter that can't be explained by my food intake and/or activity patterns, and BG is something that I can directly measure.  How could I possibly draw any useful conclusions about protein utilization when I have no way to directly measure it, and must infer any conclusions from BG readings which are heavily influenced by the breakdown of body fat, absolute grams of protein consumed (and probably type of protein consumed), absolute grams of fat consumed, amount of activity, muscle uptake of glucose vs fatty acids vs ketones, and a host of complex biochemical reactions that I know nothing about nor can I measure?   As an example, sometimes after jogging my BG rises 8 points and sometimes it falls 10 points ( I take 3 readings to make sure that the reading aren't just a bad test strip etc).  Since I eat the same food everyday, the same amount everyday, at the same time of day everyday, and jog at the same time of day, I've been unable to come up with any useful explanation to account for this relatively simple observation.  I've also tried to vary the number of days off between jogging from 1 to 3 days and unfortunately the rise and/or fall of BG from a jogging session seems to have no correlation to the rest period between periods of activity.   

At this point the only thing I can tell you for sure is that after a meal, BG does seem to consistently rise over about a 3 hour period, and the amount of the rise seems to be consistent with the general amount of protein I consume - more protein in the meal the higher BG rises.  But be aware, I notice this effect when the amount of protein is significantly different from the norm.  In other words, it became noticeable when I consumed about 3 times the normal amount of protein, (200+g vs 70g).  A change of 20-30g does not produce a consistent measurable change in BG.

Unless you can think of a protocol that will account for all the metabolic interactions that can influence BG so as to be able to extract and isolate the amount of BG contributed by gluconeogenesis, trying to equate BG readings to anything more specific than general observations seems a hopless task to me. 

Lex

A day at 40g, 30g, or even 20g would show either the same rise in BG (or a proportional rise) and thus that protein is burned at or near the 58% regardless of the body's need to rebuild itself - OR - it would not show a rise in BG at some point thus showing the body's TRUE protein requirement.

But you bring up an interesting point.  Namely, what happens to all of those AAs that are freed up when protein reconstruction happens?  I mean, the protein may be damaged or no longer needed, but those AAs are quite sturdy and fully reusable.  In a steady state the only NEW protein requirement we should have is to replace what we shed.  I have a hard time thinking we flake off at a rate of 42% of 0.8g/Kg optimal weight.  That's assuming the common protein requirement number of 0.8g/Kg and the 58% GNG rate as written about and experienced by you.  Anyway in my case, my protein replacement need would be 25g/day.  That would be about 2 tablespoons of me casually being scattered about during the day.  Seems like a bit much.  Maybe not. We do lose quite a bit.  It really makes tracking with my dogs easy. :)

It's all a rather esoteric question.  Just musing on my part really. 

OTOH, if you did do such a test AND found that you could drop your postprandial BG rise, you could be in position to nearly guarantee that you would be shifted over to fat burning metabolism rather than a glucose one.  Unless your hormones are such that you start stripping your lean mass to keep you on the glucose path.  Who knows?

-E

13
Journals / Re: Lex's Journal
« on: August 26, 2008, 08:12:40 am »
I hadn't thought of using the isolate powders that body builders use.  I guess that's because I tried them several years ago and I just didn't feel very good after ingesting them.  I used the pure protein powders, not the flavored ones with all the sugar and/or sweeteners added, and made my own concoctions with various combinations of milk, cream, fruit, and veggie juices - sometimes with raw eggs added.  I can say that it wasn't the best experience I've ever had.  I tried several of the top rated powders, all of which were very expensive at $100+ for a 3 or 4 lb tub.  I tried soy, casein, and egg based as well as "balanced" blends and all made me light headed and a bit queasy feeling after taking them.  I did try just taking the juice/milk/egg mixtures without the protein powder added and these did not cause the negative effects, so as far as I'm concerned it was the protein isolates that caused the problems.  Needless to say, I'm not wild about repeating that experience - even in the name of science...

Lex


LOL  I suppose you could always  have the fish.   ;D

-E

PS.  On a more serious note...  An AA composition test would be rather pointless.  However testing the lower limits of this 58% thing would be easy and somewhat revealing.  I see two possibilities, one there is no lower limit and two there IS one.  Assuming there is a lower limit, I would think that it would be showing the test subject's (you)  ACTUAL protein requirements, for that point in time anyway.  This could be further tested by going sedentary for a day or two and ramping it up by extra hard bodybuilding type workouts for a day or two.  I would think that meaningful data would next to instantaneous on the meters so any form of long range experiment would be unnecessary, a day or two at most with a return to baseline for few days between tests.

14
Journals / Re: Lex's Journal
« on: August 23, 2008, 07:33:55 am »
E,
One of the interesting corollaries to my idea that specific amino acids are converted to glucose and others are not, is that I would expect the amino acid profile of meats to be similar and therefore have roughly the same conversion rate.  However, the amino acid profile of plant proteins vary all over the place and the conversion factors would vary significantly depending on the source.  Very difficult to test as I know of no vegetable protein source that doesn't come with a carbohydrate load far exceeding the protein content.

Lex

Not that I'm suggesting it for now, but should the time come, you could do your BG tests after a "meal" of one of the various protein isolate powders out there.  You could even keep these "meals" isocaloric by adjusting the fat content by making them with cream.  (It'd probably pretty tasty too)  You could try a soy as well as a casein based powder.  This is assuming that they do in fact have worthwhile differences in their AA profiles.  This I don't know off the top of my head.  Also, even if the AA profile is different, switching out an AA with another AA that is equally glucogenic would confound the test.  Problems problems...  ;)

-E

15
Journals / Re: Lex's Journal
« on: August 23, 2008, 12:11:23 am »
I really have no clue about the upper limit or even if 58% is a reasonable conversion factor.  I do know that I've observed that the more protein I eat at a meal the higher my BG rises and the longer it stays elevated.  I used 58% as this seems to be the accepted number and it is the number used on the Saturated Fat Forum as well.

I’m also guessing that only certain amino acids can be converted into glucose and this is what sets conversion factor and/or the limit.

Well it seems your anecdotal evidence seems to support the 58% number.   I suppose it could be a maximum conversion factor OR it could be simply that the AA content of YOUR diet lends itself to a 58% conversion. 

I suppose that both options would be easy to test, if you were inclined, when you are finished with this experiment, after you get all of those other experiments out of the way.  You know, in a decade or two.   ;D

-E

16
Journals / Re: Lex's Journal
« on: August 22, 2008, 02:47:37 am »
I had an interesting experience day before yesterday.  I took my wife out to eat and ordered two 16 oz ribeye steaks as rare as they would make them.  I ordered them without any seasoning.  My wife was unable to finish all of her steak so I ate about another 8 oz of medium rare steak for a total of 2 1/2 lbs.  I felt rather thirsty for several hours after the meal, which we ate a bit earlier than usual at around 2pm, even though the steaks were not salted or seasoned in any way.

I checked BG in the early evening and before going to bed and it had risen about 30 points well into the 100's.  When I got up in the morning I did my usual weigh-in and was up about 1 3/4 lbs.

The USDA website says the average ribeye steak is about 20% fat and 17.25% protein.   2.5 lbs of steak would then be about 225 grams of fat and 195 grams protein.  If 58% of the protein were converted to glucose this would work out to about 113 grams of glucose.  I've read where each gram of glucose causes the body to store an additional 6 grams of water.  Therefore 113 grams of glucose would cause the body to hold and additional 678 grams of water (113 x 6) for a total weight increase of 791 grams (113 glucose + 678 water).  791 divided by 453 to convert back to pounds equals 1.75 lbs which exactly matches my increase in weight.

Since I lowered my food intake to 500g per day my normal protein intake is about 70 - 75 grams .  As you can see, eating those steaks gave me almost 3 times my normal protein for one day and I believe it clearly created a significant increase in glucose based both on the weight gain and the rise in BG.

I also found that I had no trouble eating the 2.5 lbs (1.15Kg) and I assume that this is because of the difference in the ratio of fat.  My normal food is over 30% fat so it takes much less for me to feel satisfied with the significantly higher fat level of my normal food.  In fact, there is no way that I could eat 2.5 lbs of my regular high fat food.  Doing so would make me nauseous.

I thought the observation and the math were interesting.

Lex



Interesting.  Remembering that this is a single data point with a multitude of potential confounding factors and highly imprecise measurements (both the restaurant's version of "16oz" and your own scale)....

It would seem that 58% is an upper limit of of conversion as your meal was well past the point of having intake being a limiting factor.

As a side note, were I thinner, you and I are about the same size.  I *can* eat that much, but boy howdy would I be uncomfortable for quite some time.  If I could do that consistently, I would spend my time at the local all-you-can-eat Brazillian BBQ rather than the steakhouse.  :)  But then I prefer my food cooked, rare, but cooked.  And I like salt.

As a side side note to the forum, I don't see anything wrong with raw.  In fact I suspect it is better for you.  I'm just not there yet.

-E

17
Journals / Re: Lex's Journal
« on: August 16, 2008, 01:27:27 am »
Thoughts on 58%...

This is all strictly conjecture  (you have been warned)

Idea 1)
58% is based on a average 100g intake meaning that our absolute protein need 42g (based on the mythical average human) and any additional protein is simply fuel.

Idea 2)
On a ZC diet, glucose needs are met FIRST by dietary protein GNG.  The next use of dietary protein is for structural needs, followed by fuel.

Idea 3)
58% may be the running average of SUPERFLUOUS amino acids in the diet.  That is, the body needs certain AAs to rebuild, not just the ones you eat.

Idea 4)
What happens that makes us need new protein even a body that is at a steady state?  And where does THAT old protein go?  Maybe, on average, the minimal fasting states that we all normally have result in a running average 42g of protein catabolism, requiring a 42g replacement.  In such a case, another 58g or so would most like be needed when on a ZC diet.

Idea 5)
Basic chemistry requires that 58% is at best an average of a very narrow band of dietary conditions.  Assuming an unlimited desire to convert protein:  If the body's capacity to convert is a limiting factor then as dietary protein approaches zero the percentage of conversion approaches 100%.  And if dietary protein is the limiting factor then the conversion is always near 100%. 

Idea 6)
We know that the body CAN utilize far more than 42g of protein a day, weight lifters and children do it all the time.  There may however be an upper limit to this rate that is reached when in a single meal per day environment.  I doubt we reach this when in a steady state.

I don't know.  I tend to think that we need to eat a certain amount of protein to meet our specific AA requirements and that the consequence of that is the GNG of the unneeded AAs.

Just my thoughts.  I could be totally wrong.  ;)

-E

18
Journals / Re: Lex's Journal
« on: August 14, 2008, 01:37:21 am »
Howdy!  Been reading this for months, both here and elsewhere.  Fascinating!

I just had to chime in on the ketostick issue.  I hate "off-scale".  You can extend your ketone measurement range by simply diluting the urine before measuring it.  I know this adds a bit of inconvenience (and mess) to the process, but it would allow you to trend yourself even when you are off the charts.

-E

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