please forgive the typos, i will fix them very shortly

there were a couple of taoist extremists who thought that meat was poisonous too...
I agree with you entirely by the way

I would really like to be able to refute their 'meat is toxic' 'science' both to annoy them but also for me though. Being an ex vegan, much of the nutritional ideology is stuck in me and gives me anxiety about the new food I am eating.

It doesn't bother me what fruigivores say because its just an impossible diet in the wild - even high fruit diets of the equator need animal foods and starches anyway it seems... But I am going just south of the arctic circle... so maybe with some environmentally destructive agriculture (defeating the purpose of living wild if you ask me) I could be a vegan but certainly not a fruigivore - but im just not sure its the best choice for my health or the environment - and i have nil ethical concerns about bugs or fish (and being the wierdo I am believe plants are conscious in some ways and dont want to die either - science backs this up), am reasonably fine with poultry, and some days fine with ruminants and some days a little iffy about killing them - i think it comes more down to the ability to see ourselves in other life than what life actually is more important - im sure the bugs and potatos we happily eat don't like being killed...   

I just want from a nutritional perspective to be able to look at raw meat and feel 'this is healthy, cleansing, and healing' rather than 'this is toxic'.. There are just a few claims from vege 'scientists' about meat being bad, and a few claims from members here about raw meat being healing and raw protein being cleansing - that I would like to understand better - dispute the vege science, and learn the science behind cleansing meats.

The ethics are something id rather keep personal and figure out myself

I became obese and unhealthy on a vegan diet.
I have been doing lots of research into raw paleo (still with lots of plant foods) as the optimal human diet...

BUT have so many vegan friends and lots of 'vegan science' shoved down my throat, and the constant bold statements (language is very powerful, these statements are like affirmations my subconsciousness is making true) about animal protein and fat...

I would like to start a forum to debunk all the vegan nonsense surrounding animal foods.
And maybe even fire back at the alternatives (high fructose, high starch, high lectin, antinutrients, low fat) etc.

I feel what we subconsciously believe affects how our food works more than anything else... and i want to be able to be comfortable knowing what is true and what isn't, but some of these claims (most likely fear mongering, but I would still want to know for sure) are effecting me, creating anxiety about what I eat, despite going against the bulk of my research...


So i'll get the ball rolling, copy some vegan 'science' about animal protein and fat, and hopefully we can start a debunking thread

"After eating a fatty meal, your blood gets fattier for hours before your liver can clean it up, and subcutaneous fat produces estrogen"

"Animal fat produces inflammatory cytokines which inhibit insulin receptors"

"These two factors inhibit proper glucose absorption in the cells, causing type 2 diabetes - switching to a plant based diet can reverse type 2 diabetes"

"Eating meat fuels gut bacteria which produce TMAO which is an endotoxin which causes leaky gut"

"Meat rots in your gut and stays in your colon"

"Meat and starch create mucus which is the cause of all diseases"

"Meat causes inflammation"

"Meat heats your blood which promotes inflammation"


I'll post more as I hear them, which I undoubtedly will thanks to all my asshole vegan friends :p


 

Okay, i'm not to sure where to put this - because the diet I am trying in preparation for the wild diet I will be transitioning too in a year or so does not fit the instincto/primal/carnivorous categories well (or even paleo as I occasionally, with emphasis on occasionally - eat whole oats and fava beans) - but does share many similarities to some of these diets...

Living wild I wish to live without an agricultural set up so my people and I can live over the full 100skm territory we have been eyeing up, mostly for ethical and environmental reasons (take that agricultural vegans/fruitivores), but also to avoid being caught as what we are doing is highly illegal BUT what we call 'wild agriculture' - i.e. planting and storing seeds in liable wild locations and letting nature take its course - rather than clearing land, diverting rivers, protecting crops from animals, starving the soil, or crowding out the native flora. Potatoes, kale, cannabis, fava beans, oats, carrots, potentially blueberries if they aren't growing native in our area, amongst certain other herbs we use in food, medicine, and ritual. In autumn the deer and elk are fattening up for winter, in summer the trout and salmon are in abundance in the lakes and sea, the perch are biting in the rivers, the berries are ripe etc etc Insects/bugs are likely abundant (havent foraged for grubs or grasshopers there as of yet), and in winter the snow ground dwelling birds are still out and about. Maybe even some wolves or bears to compete with or scavenger off of - and the pines/spruce/birch/fir trees offer potential high carb famine food in their inner bark. Spring has an abundance of wild ripe flowers and buds from a variety of species... Hazelnuts are native - and a tree or two will be planted if we cannot find any in our local - so long as we can avoid harming the environment in doing so

So the diet will be pretty darn paleo and wild barring the oat grains and fava bean legumes (although we certainly wont be using the quackgrass grain for food - but possible in the soaking solution for oats to help get rid of the phytic acid?). My main questions come about what to cook and what not to cook, portion sizes, and WHY  as well as refuting some vegan claims about animal foods. But I will suck you all in with further talk of the diet to begin with

Both diets are seasonally dependant.
NOW:
50% from briefly blanched leafy greens and cruciferous vegetables (kale, spinach, cauliflower, cabbage, collards, cos lettuce)
20% from animals - muscle meat from cows, cow liver, sheeps brain, cow marrow, butterfish fillets
10% from what I classify as vegetables (which probably has nothing to do with the official classification): the plant itself (not its foliage or fruit or seed) - asparagus, potato, sweet potato, celery, carrot, beetroot.
10% from seed/nut (and occasionally certain grains or legumes - oats and fava beans from the garden - soaked, sprouted, boiled, drained, slow cooked)
10% from raw fruits (capsicum, apple, pear, orange, berries, banana, plum, chili)

Wild/Soon:

50% from briefly blanched leafy greens/foliage and cruciferous vegetables (nettle, dandelion, cannabis, kale, seaweed, thistle etc)
20-30% from animals - lots more marrow, bone broth etc plus a serve of animal protein 5 days a week - potentially:
wood grubs, crickets, grasshopers (all purged first), ants (roasted), shellfish (oysters, clams, mussels, barnacles - cooked or raw?), crayfish (crabs, crays, prawns), squid, trout, salmon, redfin perch, cod, mackeral, herring, potentially shark and tuna if we can obtain sailing capabilities, hare, squirrel, snow grouse, duck/goose, red deer, caribou, moose/european elk, wooly sheep/goat/ox...  not sure how I feel about raw snails or slugs - but of all meats to eat cooked - they seem like the worst in terms of toughness and difficulty to digest... (maybe leave them be or use for bait instead?)

Far more seasonally depending:
Vegetables/plants: Carrot, potato, cattails, lots of other roots i cannot be bothered listing (there are heeeeeaaps).
Fruits (unless we decide to plant some - probably dwarf citrus, or tart apples) if liable in the natural ecosystem) mostly berries  blue, straw, rasp, cloud, rowan, bear - all kinds - but not always available or in abundance.
Nuts, legumes, seeds, grains: oats, hazelnuts, broad/fava beans, and any fatty edible seeds we learn about in the future that grow wild.




Question time:

Fruitarians claim mucus (and thus mucus forming foods like meat and starchy vegetables) are the root of all diseases... On one hand, it makes sense to me that SOME mucas is needed (just as SOME acidity is needed and that attempting to 'alkalize your system' is a long term dangerous fad) - and on the other hand have heard that cooking foods produces intestinal mucus which stops nutrient absorption - and that raw foods - including raw starches and meats do not produce mucus/excess mucus... What are people's thoughts here? Along with alkalinity/acidity - I am seeing a bit of a yin yang principle here. Those with overly acidic/mucus-y caused illness (or yang (hot and moist) overloads in tcm) are being cured with raw vegan and fruitarian diets BUT in the long term having deficiencies if they dont switch to something more balanced - and vice versa - many pure carnivores here - even those not getting animal starch from pre-rigor mortis organs, muscles, or high meats and thus on keto diets are healing their conditions - but in the long term doing damage and needing to come back to something more balanced... Again - what are people's thoughts?

I have even heard that raw meat/raw protein is an even better cleanser that raw fruits and fruit juices... I am very intrigued - and would love someone to fill me in as to why this may be the case...
Does this include mucus cleansing?

In regards to vegans/fruitarians: "Animal protein is toxic, plants are healing and perfect"... I would like to know where this idea that 'animal protein' is some kind of disease causing food? Ideology aside- what are their beliefs? Is it because TOO MUCH methionine produces toxic compounds (despite not enough damaging the liver and t's ability to detox the body)? Is it because they believe (and I am open to) too much protein being harmful? Or is it the acid alkaline diet thing? I'm open to acid forming (or excess alkaline forming) foods stressing kidneys slightly more whilst they try to maintain a healthy blood PH, but otherwise dont buy into the diet... Is it worth mixing alklaline forming kale and spinach with acid forming raw beef? Or best to eat separate? Why?

Does it have something to do with rigor mortis and lactic acid? And how does lactic acid affect the meats digestion, effect on kidneys and liver, and whatever else. Where I want to live, cold shortening will also be unavoidable, what are the pros and cons of cold shortened meat?

Also, how exactly are raw meats both healing and cleansing - what is the mechanism? I would love to be able to turn around and explain to a vegan why they are wrong

Lastly, sugar, fructose, starches, lectins, anti nutrients, cooked beans vs raw beans, cooked starch vs raw starch, mixed first vs mono food, plant toxins making some of the carnivores here feel sick... what is the deal, what is going on? I know this might seem like basic paleo knowledge, but i get mixed answers everywhere I go, and would like to be able to read a summary all in one go, if that isn't too much to ask of people of course If not, disregard the question please


Thanks everyone

And when it comes to shellfish and bugs, I am well aware of keeping them alive and 'purging' them of nasties before eating. I just prefer some stuff cooked anyway