Salted meat and scurvy

[majormark]

@Michael: One 'evidence' that we probably dont need salt should be the wild animals which cant purchase healthy himalayan salt and still do very well.

I still consume some, if I feel like making something more tasty, but generally do not preffer it.

[goodsamaritan]

Besides AV's quack science in which I have no faith gs, do you have any further sources of how salt causes the body to be wasteful of vitamins and minerals?
I'm still utilising celtic sea salt or himalayan salt in my meals and water but am conscious that it may not be the best idea.  As far as I'm aware, most other vlc/zc raw paleo dieters on here such as Lex, Andrew, PaleoPhil and van are not using salt.

What is the general consensus on salt?

Dr. Henry Bieler the healer is against salt.  See his book, Food is your best Medicine.
He says we need organic sodium to feed our liver's health.
Bieler says you get organic sodium from:
1) Grass fed raw red meat (mainstay)
2) Zucchini as in Bieler's soup (zucchini + string beans + parsley) (treatment)

I personally do both and this has satisfied me and eliminated any hunger for salt.

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Same opinion with the Gerson Institute.  Max Gerson heals people with a paleo diet (vegs + raw liver).  They are against salt for many reasons as well.

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I eat raw sea weed regularly - which is sea salty.
I eat Dulong - small ocean fish 1 centimeter long - which is salty too. (can't eat too much of this, too salty).
Raw oysters are somewhat salty.
Raw live clams are delightfully salty.
Raw ocean prawns are somewhat salty too.

[Michael]

@Michael: One 'evidence' that we probably dont need salt should be the wild animals which cant purchase healthy himalayan salt and still do very well.
I still consume some, if I feel like making something more tasty, but generally do not preffer it.

Yes, it's this kind of thing that bothers me majormark.  I wouldn't have access to it if living in the wild in a landlocked region.  I guess that should be the only evidence I need.  But, what about some of the old tribes that went to great lengths to obtain it such as the mountainous peruvian indians?  Was this due to a physiological need beyond addiction or use of cooked foods?

I've done 2 weeks on, 2 weeks off salt to test out what works for me (right now).
At least for now I need a bit of supplemental salt to maintain my most optimal health I can right now. It's not much, basically a dash or two of a shaker (fine grained sea salt) over two meals so couldn't be more than 1/16 of a teaspoon, but if I don't do it I start experience hypostatic orthotension and occasional muscle cramping. My issues could be my typically low blood pressure or salt absorption problems, not sure.

I'm the same djr.  Certainly, my adrenal problems pre-RAF led to salt retention issues and dangerously low blood pressure.  I certainly needed salt then!  But, following years on RAF I'm not sure these are still issues so maybe I'm clinging onto a psychological memory of previous illness?  The other problem is I am repelled by my meals without salt.  I guess that's an addiction to it.  I will experiment with weaning myself off and/or conducting similar trials to your own.

Dr. Henry Bieler the healer is against salt.  See his book, Food is your best Medicine.

I eat raw sea weed regularly - which is sea salty.
I eat Dulong - small ocean fish 1 centimeter long - which is salty too. (can't eat too much of this, too salty).
Raw oysters are somewhat salty.
Raw live clams are delightfully salty.
Raw ocean prawns are somewhat salty too.

Thank gs.  I read Bieler about 10yrs ago and used to worship his work before I got into RAF.  Actually, I have a vague recollection now that the initial thought of consuming raw animal meat was implanted in my mind by Bieler's work?!  I no longer consume cooked vegetables (very little at all actually as I'm vlc/zc now) but would probably benefit from reintroducing some more seafood into my diet.

Thanks guys.

[raw]

your body would be the main monitor if you need more salt . this is not a mistake. i have an addiction with salt (still now). but when i started eating raw meat, i didn't crave a bit salt right away and i just so surprise by that. it's like within a day i felt that. than i got more curious to find out what happened to me and i saw that if i eat any starchy food, my body ultimately craves salts. so, i'm talking from my own experience that i don't need any table salts (not even the best one).

[Michael]

Thanks for your thoughts, raw.  I agree that it's wise to listen most attentively to our own bodies over the experiences and needs of other's bodies.  I will experiment, as I said.  I'm glad for you that you seemingly have no need for it.  It's probably a good sign that you're in a healthy state.

[raw]

Thanks for your thoughts, raw.  I agree that it's wise to listen most attentively to our own bodies over the experiences and needs of other's bodies.  I will experiment, as I said.  I'm glad for you that you seemingly have no need for it.  It's probably a good sign that you're in a healthy state.

i've never been seriously ill in my life and people like me to come to this kind of restricted diet its very rare i guess. i just want to be more healthy in true way. probably it runs in my family to live clean life in general.  thanks michael.

[Michael]

i've never been seriously ill in my life and people like me to come to this kind of restricted diet its very rare i guess. i just want to be more healthy in true way. probably it runs in my family to live clean life in general.  thanks michael.

I'm really pleased for you that this is the case.  As you suspect, you are in a minority as I think it's safe to state that most people eating this way are doing so, initially at least, due to ill health or a myriad of problems.  I look forward to hearing of your experiences and gains for yourself and your family.

[goodsamaritan]

Michael,

Does the red meat you eat come with a lot of blood?
I heard the frozen meats in some countries are squeezed out of blood.

[djr_81]

I'm the same djr.  Certainly, my adrenal problems pre-RAF led to salt retention issues and dangerously low blood pressure.  I certainly needed salt then!  But, following years on RAF I'm not sure these are still issues so maybe I'm clinging onto a psychological memory of previous illness?  The other problem is I am repelled by my meals without salt.  I guess that's an addiction to it.  I will experiment with weaning myself off and/or conducting similar trials to your own.

Yeah, I only have 3 1/2 months RAF under my belt so far so I can't say what will resolve itself naturally and what won't.
I'm perfectly content eating without salt though so I don't think there will a bias or addiction tempering my findings.
I'll keep regular updates in my journal so we can all follow along.

[jessica]

ive always avoided salt in the past, which may be partially to blame for my failed adrenals?
i use salt now and have developed a taste for it, not necessarily a craving but i do find seaweed or chewing on celery even more satisfying then sea salt so maybe it is a just a need for those minerals.

[goodsamaritan]

Celery is good.  It is the russian casanovas' secret.

[Michael]

ive always avoided salt in the past, which may be partially to blame for my failed adrenals?
i use salt now and have developed a taste for it, not necessarily a craving but i do find seaweed or chewing on celery even more satisfying then sea salt so maybe it is a just a need for those minerals.

Hi Jessica,

To be honest, I doubt that a lack of salt would've been responsible for failed adrenals.  The most common culprits, I believe, are the sugar and high-carb diets of modern man.  My mention of sodium in respect of the adrenals was more related to the large part the adrenals play in maintaining sodium balance which - of course - they struggle to achieve when dysfunctional.

Likewise, I didn't used to use salt at all.  But, I guess the junk stuff is so loaded into SAD foods that I had no need to add it myself!  I have noticed that it does become an acquired taste or 'addiction' but, as you said, not in a sense of cravings.  I used to find the celery juice I'd make as part of the primal diet most satisfying too.  A need for the minerals is indeed a big factor most probably.

Yeah, I only have 3 1/2 months RAF under my belt so far so I can't say what will resolve itself naturally and what won't.
I'm perfectly content eating without salt though so I don't think there will a bias or addiction tempering my findings.
I'll keep regular updates in my journal so we can all follow along.

Thanks djr.  That will be helpful.  I didn't realise you were so new to RAF!  You're making great strides already!  I've been eating this way since 2001!

Michael,
Does the red meat you eat come with a lot of blood?
I heard the frozen meats in some countries are squeezed out of blood.

Hi gs,  I do actually avoid frozen meats and all of the grass-fed meat I consume is fresh.  Thankfully, this does also mean that it comes with some quantity of blood in it's vaccum packed bag.  Only very recently - I think as a response to your own comments on the subject elsewhere, in fact - I have started drinking this blood!  I must confess that I found it a very psychologically difficult act to partake in initially.  It was as if it was the last great bastion of civilisation after which I would be committing myself to the life of an animal!     I expect it is indeed a wise thing to consume nutritionally speaking.  I wonder how many others here are drinking the blood of their meats?

[djr_81]

Thanks djr.  That will be helpful.  I didn't realise you were so new to RAF!  You're making great strides already!  I've been eating this way since 2001!

It's been a long time coming due to narrowing plant matter choices as my allergies and intolerances worsened. I'd been eating ~95-99% cooked chicken for most of a year before switching to cooked beef when I began noticing issues with the chicken. At the same time I had found the site so moved right into RAF as my tastes for the beef progressed to rarer and rarer states.

[Michael]

It's been a long time coming due to narrowing plant matter choices as my allergies and intolerances worsened. I'd been eating ~95-99% cooked chicken for most of a year before switching to cooked beef when I began noticing issues with the chicken. At the same time I had found the site so moved right into RAF as my tastes for the beef progressed to rarer and rarer states.

I can relate to your issues djr as, likewise, I was at a point where I was allergic/sensitive to virtually everything and thought I was going to be one of those people that have to live in a bubble and be fed special foods!  Take confidence my friend that this diet will ensure your recovery.  It gave me back my life!   

[van]

Hey Michael,  not to sound like a worry wart, but I have doubts about vacuum sealed bags.  Unfortunately I get most all my meat in them, but I do rinse and scape the outside of the meat with a knife.  This may sound obsessive, but the bags without the meat do smell.  They are designed to seal properly, and hold a vacuum. This makes me question that in the chemical engineering of the plastic, that some shortcomings may result in their ability to be plastic safe for humans.  I haven't researched the plastic myself, but since everything I eat comes in contact with them,  I am more comfortable with playing safe by at least minimizing the exposure to possible leaching chemicals.       After I rinse meat with warm water while gently rubbing it,  I then put it in the fridge on a stainless steel wire rack to dry.  In a couple of hours you'd never know it had been washed. 

[raw]

dear van, thanks a lot of sharing this important info. i'm just guessing that when you order your meat online, can you ask them to cover the meat with paper, than put them into the plastic? please, let me know. when i go WF, they always do that for me (i never asked them). thanks again.

[goodsamaritan]

ive always avoided salt in the past, which may be partially to blame for my failed adrenals?
i use salt now and have developed a taste for it, not necessarily a craving but i do find seaweed or chewing on celery even more satisfying then sea salt so maybe it is a just a need for those minerals.

Here is an article that satisfied me regarding the issue of adrenals.
http://www.curemanual.com/blog/2009/08/dr-henry-bieler-the-endocrine-glands-are-the-3rd-line-of-defense-against-disease/

It is only when the 2nd line and 1st line of defenses have been breached do the adrenals come into play. 

[RawZi]

    When we buy meats in a regular market or from online, I think if it has red fluid in the meat package, that is not scientifically blood.  It's slightly different, and it is called interstitial fluid.  I've tried both interstitial beef and chicken fluid and buffalo blood.  Psychologically yes it was difficult.  I'm not sure if I will try more.  I might.  I have to think about it, but I probably will take more.  I think it is really healthy (if it's good blood), and a shame when the slaughterer basically flushes it down the toilet.   

Hi gs,  I do actually avoid frozen meats and all of the grass-fed meat I consume is fresh.  Thankfully, this does also mean that it comes with some quantity of blood in it's vaccum packed bag.  Only very recently - I think as a response to your own comments on the subject elsewhere, in fact - I have started drinking this blood!  I must confess that I found it a very psychologically difficult act to partake in initially.  It was as if it was the last great bastion of civilisation after which I would be committing myself to the life of an animal!     I expect it is indeed a wise thing to consume nutritionally speaking.  I wonder how many others here are drinking the blood of their meats?

[Michael]

Hey Michael,  not to sound like a worry wart, but I have doubts about vacuum sealed bags.  Unfortunately I get most all my meat in them, but I do rinse and scape the outside of the meat with a knife.  This may sound obsessive, but the bags without the meat do smell.  They are designed to seal properly, and hold a vacuum. This makes me question that in the chemical engineering of the plastic, that some shortcomings may result in their ability to be plastic safe for humans.  I haven't researched the plastic myself, but since everything I eat comes in contact with them,  I am more comfortable with playing safe by at least minimizing the exposure to possible leaching chemicals.       After I rinse meat with warm water while gently rubbing it,  I then put it in the fridge on a stainless steel wire rack to dry.  In a couple of hours you'd never know it had been washed. 

Thanks for the warning van.  I'm obsessively concerned about my food/water coming into contact with plastic myself so I don't think you're being a worry wart.  Strangely, I hadn't actually thought about the vacuum packs.  But, I will be thinking about them now!!    I will experiment with washing my meats (although water is another thing I worry about and I'm not sure if I'd rather my meat be contaminated with potential bag plastic chemicals or tap water chemicals?!  ) or asking if they can be wrapped in paper first as raw suggested.

    When we buy meats in a regular market or from online, I think if it has red fluid in the meat package, that is not scientifically blood.  It's slightly different, and it is called interstitial fluid.  I've tried both interstitial beef and chicken fluid and buffalo blood.  Psychologically yes it was difficult.  I'm not sure if I will try more.  I might.  I have to think about it, but I probably will take more.  I think it is really healthy (if it's good blood), and a shame when the slaughterer basically flushes it down the toilet.   

I'm not sure it's a practice I want to continue.  I would rather not be eating meat at all to be honest but do so because, intellectually, I understand it to be our correct food and because it's restored my health.  Drinking blood feels like a bridge too far and is too disconnected from where I'd rather be (tending my own goats, chickens, fruit/veg and eating lacto-ovo-vegetarian).

[goodsamaritan]

I thought about the blood drinking because my son was diagnosed with tuberculosis and raw meat blood is part of the old time cure.  I can get my 8 year old boy to drink beef blood.  You can too.

Traditionally, Filipinos eat cooked pig and chicken's blood in a dish called "dinuguan" aka "blooded."  Many people find this delicious and special.

Also street vendors sell cubes of blood barbecued.  Blood is quite popular cooked.

[Michael]

I thought about the blood drinking because my son was diagnosed with tuberculosis and raw meat blood is part of the old time cure.  I can get my 8 year old boy to drink beef blood.  You can too.

Traditionally, Filipinos eat cooked pig and chicken's blood in a dish called "dinuguan" aka "blooded."  Many people find this delicious and special.

Also street vendors sell cubes of blood barbecued.  Blood is quite popular cooked.

Barbecued blood?!  I can't imagine that catching on in the UK!!   

How's your son doing now gs?

[goodsamaritan]

getting better, here is his latest progress report http://www.myhealthblog.org/2009/11/22/8-year-old-boys-primary-complex-tb-cure-progress-solid-stools/