How long does it take to clear excess protein from the blood?

[ys]

So, how much raw meat can a person eat safely on a daily basis? I know that there is no hard proof, but is someone consuming 1 kg of beef daily? More than that?

no one ever can answer this very generalized question.
it'll be very different for 120lb person and 250lb person. it will depend on activity and energy spending.  there are simply too many factors.

the right amount is the one that makes you feel the best.

[TylerDurden]

 I agree with the above statement.  Just eat as much as you think you need. I only add that adding raw spices might make you eat more than you actually need, that's all.

[William]

It is not just US Wellness.
Slanker's meat does not have yellow fat as well.  Suet has hint of yellow and sometimes orange, but meat almost exclusively has pearly white fat.

I've heard somewhere that very yellow meat fat comes from old animals who are not efficiently converting beta carotene into vitA.

The yellow fat that I used only once to make good tasting pemmican came from what the farmer called a "mature" animal. This means more than 30 months old, but I don't think it could be considered old compared to average life span of oxen. It takes at least 3 years on abundant grass for a grass-finished animal to have an appreciable amount of fat - this from a farmer in Virginia.

[William]

So, how much raw meat can a person eat safely on a daily basis? I know that there is no hard proof, but is someone consuming 1 kg of beef daily? More than that?

From the archive of the paleofood list:


Re: Was Pemmican cure, Now Protein to Fat Ratio

Thu, 9 Apr 2009 07:58:11


1) Please see this excerpt from Phinney's review "Ketogenic Diets and 
Physical Performance":

"The third dietary factor potentially affecting physical performance 
is adjusting protein intake to bring it within the optimum 
therapeutic window for human metabolism. The studies noted herein 
[13-15,20] demonstrate effective preservation of lean body mass and 
physical performance when protein is in the range of 1.2 – 1.7 g/kg 
reference body weight daily, provided in the context of adequate 
minerals. Picking the mid-range value of 1.5 g/kg-d, for adults with 
reference weights ranging from 60–80 kg, this translates into total 
daily protein intakes 90 to 120 g/d. This number is also consistent 
with the protein intake reported in the Bellevue study [9]. When 
expressed in the context of total daily energy expenditures of 2000–
3000 kcal/d, about 15% of ones daily energy expenditure (or intake if 
the diet is eucaloric) needs to be provided as protein.

The effects of reducing daily protein intake to below 1.2 g/kg 
reference weight during a ketogenic diet include progressive loss of 
functional lean tissue and thus loss of physical performance, as 
demonstrated by Davis et al [21]. In this study, subjects given 
protein at 1.1 g/kg-d experienced a significant reduction in VO2max 
over a 3 month period on a ketogenic diet, whereas subjects given 1.5 
g/kg-d maintained VO2max.

At the other end of the spectrum, higher protein intakes have the 
potential for negative side-effects if intake of this nutrient 
exceeds 25% of daily energy expenditure. One concern with higher 
levels of protein intake is the suppression of ketogenesis relative 
to an equi-caloric amount of fat (assuming that ketones are a 
beneficial adaptation to whole body fuel homeostasis). In addition, 
Stefansson describes a malady known by the Inuit as rabbit malaise 
[8]. This problem would occur in the early spring when very lean 
rabbits were the only available game, when people might be tempted to 
eat too much protein in the absence of an alternative source of 
dietary fat. The symptoms were reported to occur within a week, and 
included headache and lassitude. Such symptoms are not uncommon among 
people who casually undertake a 'low carbohydrate, high protein' diet."


2) Also, Ron Rosedale in his book recommending a "high fat, low 
nonfiber carbohydrate, moderate protein diet," has charts that start 
on page 207 to help you figure out daily protein requirements.   
Basically, for those who are not overweight, the number is half your 
weight.  There are a few more calculations involved for the 
overweight -- but the gist is the same as Phinney above.

Here's a quote from the book:

"The fact that protein is essential for life... doesn't mean that you 
can eat it in unlimited quantities.  When you eat more protein than 
your body needs to replace and repair body parts, excess protein is 
largely converted  into glucose and burned as fuel.  It turns you 
into a sugar maker and sugar burner!  This is not desirable or healthy."

Jim Swayze

[luis]

Thaks WIlliam,that is very interesting information indeed.

[carnivorous]

Nora Gedgaudas writes in her book that around 40-50g of protein is absolutely plenty for most people.  She says 60g is fine for huge athletic individuals under heavy duress (!).  I actually began my protein-limiting experiment at around ~120g, and have now dropped it to about half that.  I'm somewhat worried about the idea that less than 96-120g of protein will hinder performance and cause muscle loss, but something about these protein estimates seems off to me.

I cannot help but think that there is an enormous difference between the types of protein (and thus amino acid makeup) ingested.  Surely a vegan's 120g is the polar opposite in terms of muscular availability compared to an enormous fatty herbivore's flesh (buffalo, mammoth, seal...)  Chicken, fish, and other smaller/ harder to live off of animal proteins probably lay somewhere in the middle as far as quality-to-quantity ratio goes.  This could possibly play a huge role in the "required" amount of protein; likewise, be of importance in possible life-extension benefits from limiting protein.

Certainly this viewpoint isn't alien to those of us who have chosen raw animal foods.  We cannot simply reduce things to nutrient A and nutrient B, and all-encompassing macronutrients.  Perhaps 40g of grass finished beef protein goes further than 300g of soy protein.

William, do you have a link to that original thread?  I can't find it with google.

[KD]

the gripe I have with NG on this is that, although on PD it is possible to maintain a low protein level while maintaining total energy needs through pure animal fats, marrow, or possibly high fat raw dairy, these things are fairly absent from her diet of high vegetation, cooked muscle meat and limited amounts of pasteurized dairy. In a nutshell, I tried to work this out with someone on another board, and its physically impossible to eat a diet within her parameters at such low protein that is NOT severely calorie restricted. As additional nuts/eggs or any other non-pure fat source garner more protein, so I have a hard time taking such low protein recommendations/ceiling from her.

[carnivorous]

the gripe I have with NG on this is that, although on PD it is possible to maintain a low protein level while maintaining total energy needs through pure animal fats, marrow, or possibly high fat raw dairy, these things are fairly absent from her diet of high vegetation, cooked muscle meat and limited amounts of pasteurized dairy. In a nutshell, I tried to work this out with someone on another board, and its physically impossible to eat a diet within her parameters at such low protein that is NOT severely calorie restricted. As additional nuts/eggs or any other non-pure fat source garner more protein, so I have a hard time taking such low protein recommendations/ceiling from her.

I'm certainly not taking her word as gospel; her book has no shortage of speculation.  That said, I think Phinney's requirements are absolutely ignoring the quality of the protein.  Also, when he notes reduction in V02 max, I wonder if the animal protein doses included critical animal fats that he may have ignored.  I would not be surprised if the fat they gave the subjects was some flavored vegetable-oil concoction with a poor fatty acid/fat soluble vit. profile.  Ex: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/e/ea/Liquigen_edit.jpg  I have a hard time imagining Phinney sucessfully feeding SAD cyclists 80%+ of their calories from raw suet, or even butter/cream for that matter.

[Paleo Donk]

Yes, I like completely agree with you about the quality of protein and the enormous difference it would make for daily requirements. I've also seen a study that showed slightly more nitrogen excretion for diets higher in malliard products. This would suggest raw protein would be superior and even more bio-available. Unfortunately I don't think one good study exists that uses what I would define as quality protein and so daily requirements are really just a guess and left as usual to self-experimentation.

I also think that there are probably quite a few study's with ketogenic diets that use really horrible vegetable oils high in omega-6 that could be really devastating to the true nature of the outcomes. Namely those that focus on childhood epilepsy as I've seen a special on tv where the parents of the epileptic child were measuring out canola oil...

[William]

William, do you have a link to that original thread?  I can't find it with google.

 Paleofood archives are searchable here: http://listserv.icors.org/SCRIPTS/WA-ICORS.EXE?S1=paleofood
search term was:Re: Was Pemmican cure, Now Protein to Fat Ratio
I found the post here:http://listserv.icors.org/SCRIPTS/WA-ICORS.EXE?A2=ind0904&L=PALEOFOOD&P=R1948&I=-3&d=No+Match%3BMatch%3BMatches

I think that I am eating too much meat, but am already eating =>80% fat as tallow; any more fat and the taste puts me off.

[Paleo Donk]

I just found something interesting I'd like to share from the following paper - http://www.landesbioscience.com/journals/cc/article/BlagosklonnyCC5-18.pdf

It's a paper on finding out what paths cause cells to age.

It may seem tempting to soften the thesis, by suggesting that some age-related diseases are due to primary loss-of-functions. However, I am unable to give an example of any age-associated disease caused by a primary loss of function. (I will be happy to analyze any examples provided by the readers and posted on the Cell Cycle Blog). Loss of functions seems to be secondary to initial hyper-function of damaging factors. And hyper-functions eventually damage. Diseases of aging such as hypertension, cancer, stroke, atherosclerosis
all result from hyper-function, hyperplasia and hypertrophy

He uses a great analogy for uncontrolled hyper-function - that if you wanted to make a cup of hot water, a simple program for this would be to light the  stove, fill a pot with water and then retrieve the water when its hot. There does not have to be a mechanism in place for shutting off the stove and so the excess water in the pot will eventually evaporate and the pot will absorb collateral damage. He thinks that cells function like this and that there is no genetically pre-programmed off switch in place for cell function.

Earlier in the paper the author discusses two strategies that are used to defend against aging - one being using antioxidants for free radical prevention and presumably other nutrient supplementation and the other "(known as hormesis) is to “stimulate intrinsic
capacity for self-maintenance and repair"

I haven't finished the paper and must leave for now but this all seems brilliant to me, that instead of constantly providing your body with overnutrition(excess protein, excess vitmains and minerals) which to me would seem like a burden (and as the author states "hyper-function") - it would be best to have as little repair as possible, especially if the cell is functioning properly to begin with.

I'm thinking this paper is going to lead down to a path of moderate protein consumption, or even intermittent protein intake where we fast for some period of time before intake. Modern humans have an enormous advantage as we can have food any time we want. Paleo man did not have this luxury and so he would have been forced to consume at more constant intervals to insure survival. So maybe modern humans can hack out a method of consuming protein intermittently that can enhance both quality of life and longevity.

[MrBBQ]

Some people even speculate that the required amino acids can be produced endogenously by symbiotic organisms in the GI tract, particularly in the context of tight protein recycling. However, the loss of muscle mass is very telling.

There's also the proposition that muscle meats have excessively unbalanced tryptophan, which may be balanced more with the amino acids in collagen/gelatin - this has impact on endocrinological balance. So some people may be alternating between muscle meats and regular bone broths, as well as organs.

This all has the direct implication that we should be eating the entire animal as the whole food, just like the various tribes did around the world.

The other question would be, how discreetly would we like to monitor these processes/effects - as if our moment-to-moment livelihood depends on it. Remember that we're humans with a penchant for fun, despite having lost our natural appetite, so maybe a half serious, half scientific and half fun approach is most productive. Maybe we should just listen more to the quiet voice inside about what we want, instead of stuffing down ratios of this and that in mechanistic fashion - like, "oh, I feel like that tonight".

Maybe we can acknowledge that obsessing over food is a bit weird, yet the obsession is born out of the junk that's been peddled to all humans in our era, so typically, weirdness is virtue...

Also, on another note, hypermetabolism and fast protein cycling is another indicator in longevity (not hypometabolism in the case of calorie restriction), so that may undermine the point about "enough for maintenance" - an example would be rate of hair/nail growth (1 inch or 1cm per month?!)

[Paleo Donk]

The other question would be, how discreetly would we like to monitor these processes/effects - as if our moment-to-moment livelihood depends on it. Remember that we're humans with a penchant for fun, despite having lost our natural appetite, so maybe a half serious, half scientific and half fun approach is most productive. Maybe we should just listen more to the quiet voice inside about what we want, instead of stuffing down ratios of this and that in mechanistic fashion - like, "oh, I feel like that tonight".

Yeah, this is the answer. Maybe one day I'll have access to entire carcasses so that my natural appetite will be restored. Weirdness is completely virtue - never do I feel so free when I am confident enough to be as weird as I want.