BOTULISM

[primalgirl]

I was just having a discussion with a friend about raw primal and he's all freaked out about me getting botulism poisoning. What about that?

[TylerDurden]

I was just having a discussion with a friend about raw primal and he's all freaked out about me getting botulism poisoning. What about that?

There was some vague possible scare re eating raw, aged foods that have not been exposed to the air since that might encourage the botulinism toxin. If your food is exposed to the air, it's not an issue.

[Adora]

Botulism is one of the most dangerous/deadly types of food poisoning. Totally agree with what Tyler said and want to pass along that canned food is usually the culprit from this type of food poisoning. If your cooked food friend is concerned tell him to be picky and not choose cans with dents/pin pricks/rust or bulging/lids they are all high risk. Home canning of low acid (like green beans, one of my old favorites) cooked foods can be problematic as well.
   Raw canning, for pickles and sauerkraut is safe because they are very acidic, especially if lacto-fermented, or Kiefer whey.
    The raw honey and baby thing used to upset me, but now I avoid carbs so that seems better for babies to avoid it too. Again it is linked to acid, the botulism in the soil is transmitted to bees so it gets in they're honey. The form is different from other types of food poisoning (sorry I don't understand this well), and is safe after our stomachs produce acid, 1 year and older.
    A sweet girl I worked with suffered from it after eating canned soup. She tries hard to be healthy (although we have different ideas of what is healthy),  so she was miffed about landing in the hospital after eating soup.
   Interestingly, she was always a little pudgy, but after the food poisoning (which I don't recommend), she has been slender. I for weeks I figured she would gain it back, but it's been over a year, and I wonder if the bacteria exposure affected her figure long term.

[Wolf]

Botulism is about the only thing that really scares me about eating raw food.  The reason it is so dangerous is because botulism, which is caused by some sort of spore, causes paralysis.  What happens is that your entire body becomes paralyzed over time (I think over the course of hours to maybe a day or two at most, not sure exactly, how long, you can look it up.) until your lungs/heart or brain or something get paralyzed and you die.  However it is also the ingredient used to make botox.  Yeah, that stuff that all the movie stars use to make their face look younger, you see it get made fun of in movies where the person's face gets all stiff and they can't make any facial expressions.. it's made with botulism.

Botulism will only develop in air-tight or anaerobic environments though, that's why they say if you air out you meat it will be fine.  It seems to be caused a whole lot worse and much easier when in metal containers.  Some say it happens more in plastic too, but I'm not sure.  Safest is glass and ceramic type containers, of course.  Just make sure they get lots of air and there will be nothing to worry about.  Though I don't think I would trust meat in a metal container even if it gets aired out a lot.  That's just me though, I don't know if anyone here has done it without problem or would want to risk it.  But I would take e.coli and salmonella any day over botulism.

[jameweights]

This worries me SO MUCH!

[CatTreats]

Wouldn't this be like any other parasite/bacteria where a good immune system (which most of us can claim to have) would shrug it off if you were exposed?

[eveheart]

Wouldn't this be like any other parasite/bacteria where a good immune system (which most of us can claim to have) would shrug it off if you were exposed?

Botulin toxin is a toxin, not a bacteria. Here is a useful rundown:

Clostridium botulinum is a bacteria found in the soil. Adult digestive juices kill the spores, but the neurotoxin can be formed in wounds and in infants' immature digestive tracts.

The neurotoxin botulinum is a very deadly toxin produced by anaerobic action of the living C. botulinum spores. Anaerobic means "no air" must be present for botulin neurotoxin to be produced. The condition is commonly associated with improper preservation of foods, such as canning foods that haven't been heated enough to kill C. botulinum spores and foods stored in plastic without oxygen.

When eating paleolithic foods, be sure you are not using botulism-friendly food storage environments. If you are preserving foods, make sure you know how to avoid botulin toxin. If you are storing foods, make sure you have air circulation.

Summing it up: the bacteria is okay, the toxin is never okay.

[CatTreats]

Thank you for the breakdown. Learn something new everyday and I appreciate that!

What would be the best way for me to be storing food? I'm on a budget, so I've been using ziploc baggies (I know its BAD) for freezing my portioned organs that I know I won't eat fast enough. I never worried about any serious problems with plastic, so this is sorta news for me. Never had heard of botulism until now. >.<

[eveheart]

I've never heard of freezing-related botulism. What is the source of your concern?

[CatTreats]

I've never heard of freezing-related botulism. What is the source of your concern?

Because I freeze in plastic baggies. Isn't botulism related to keeping food in plastic? Or maybe I'm misunderstanding.

[TylerDurden]

Because I freeze in plastic baggies. Isn't botulism related to keeping food in plastic? Or maybe I'm misunderstanding.

No, botulism is linked to meat that is nonfrozen and has not been exposed to air/oxygen for some time.

[eveheart]

Because I freeze in plastic baggies. Isn't botulism related to keeping food in plastic? Or maybe I'm misunderstanding.

You can learn about Clostridium botulinum (a bacteria that exists in nature), botulinum toxin (the toxin produced by C. botulinum under certain circumstances), and botulism (food poisoning from botulinum toxin) on Wikipedia.

You can learn simple food practices that may cause botulism on sites that teach food preservation with canning. Here's a simple generic site: http://www.wikihow.com/Prevent-Botulism. I learned about this in home economics classes that were taught before women's liberation, when all women were expected to know the kitchen arts, including how to can foods and how to defrost and clean the refrigerator weekly.

[sabertooth]

Does anyone know of anyone who was severely sickened by botilizm while on a raw paleo diet?

All the cases I have read were of people who ate contaminated cooked foods?

And not everyone who consumed the tainted food during such outbreaks becomes ill?

I believe that millions of people experience some form of it every year, but because their constitution is strong they may only experience it as a minor discomfort or single episode of diarrhea, and only if the food is "extremely" contaminated would it make a healthy person seriously ill.

Botulism should not be a problem for people following a raw foods diet..... Even for those of us who dont air out the high meat often enough.

[eveheart]

Does anyone know of anyone who was severely sickened by botulism while on a raw paleo diet?

The "famous" case that has many versions is about Alaskan Native methods of burying meat underground to ferment. Their traditional method was to use a moss-lined pit or an animal skin (in other words, porous materials), but this method had been modified by the introduction of Western containers like tupperware and plastic bags, which create an anaerobic environment that C. botulinum favors.

The cases they warned us about in school had to do with non-acidic vegetables, like tomatoes and mushrooms, being canned in a boiling water bath instead of a pressure canner and eaten straight out of the jar without boiling. Cases of botulism in commercially-canned food is very rare nowadays, but like any other unfortunate occurrence, it happens.

[CatTreats]

You can learn about Clostridium botulinum (a bacteria that exists in nature), botulinum toxin (the toxin produced by C. botulinum under certain circumstances), and botulism (food poisoning from botulinum toxin) on Wikipedia.

You can learn simple food practices that may cause botulism on sites that teach food preservation with canning. Here's a simple generic site: http://www.wikihow.com/Prevent-Botulism. I learned about this in home economics classes that were taught before women's liberation, when all women were expected to know the kitchen arts, including how to can foods and how to defrost and clean the refrigerator weekly.

Thanks for this. I'm really not concerned about it anymore. I think I was misreading or misunderstanding a previous post that made it seem like plastic bags or containers = botulism. :p

Does anyone know of anyone who was severely sickened by botilizm while on a raw paleo diet?

All the cases I have read were of people who ate contaminated cooked foods?

And not everyone who consumed the tainted food during such outbreaks becomes ill?

I believe that millions of people experience some form of it every year, but because their constitution is strong they may only experience it as a minor discomfort or single episode of diarrhea, and only if the food is "extremely" contaminated would it make a healthy person seriously ill.

Botulism should not be a problem for people following a raw foods diet..... Even for those of us who dont air out the high meat often enough.

The "famous" case that has many versions is about Alaskan Native methods of burying meat underground to ferment. Their traditional method was to use a moss-lined pit or an animal skin (in other words, porous materials), but this method had been modified by the introduction of Western containers like tupperware and plastic bags, which create an anaerobic environment that C. botulinum favors.

The cases they warned us about in school had to do with non-acidic vegetables, like tomatoes and mushrooms, being canned in a boiling water bath instead of a pressure canner and eaten straight out of the jar without boiling. Cases of botulism in commercially-canned food is very rare nowadays, but like any other unfortunate occurrence, it happens.

Sounds like this is another issue that, while something to think about, isn't limited or heightened by consuming specifically raw meat. Considering it's from soil, raw veggies are not out of the question either, correct? But no one is screaming botulism whenever a raw vegan is eating a salad. Just like no one screams at the people eating raw veggies or peanut butter, yet I eat raw beef and people come in crowds to inform me of "salmonella."

Also sounds like something that only became an "issue" when we started introducing abnormal things into a normal process.

All in all, I don't think I'm going to worry about it. I'll still use my plastic baggies (since I have like 200 left), since anything that goes into them gets frozen immediately and/or will be eaten within a day or so.