ketosis and athletics

[Raw Kyle]

Is there a midway point between glucose driven and ketone driven metabolism? If I have to sacrifice explosive power for long term cardio I really don't know which way to go.

[lex_rooker]

Kyle I think you just hit the nail on the head.  I've chosen a zero carb (or even a VLC would be acceptable) lifestyle as it promotes better overall health and freedom from the degenerative diseases that are running rampant in our culture.

Life is a complex web of trade-offs and opportunity costs.  Most choices are mutually exclusive which is just a high falutin way of saying that you can't have your cake and eat it too.

My guess is that our Paleo ancestors depended on superior endurance more than exceptional strength for daily survival. No matter how strong you are you aren't going to overpower an elephant, wild pig, buffalo, or any other wild beast.  However, you could seriously wound them using moderate strength, a bit of cunning, and simple weapons like rocks and spears, and then follow them for hours or days until they finally dropped.  It would also take considerable endurance to move any significant portion of the kill back to a base campsite - assuming they did that.

There is a big difference between "functional" strength that helps us take out the trash, mow the lawn, and perform everyday work without injury, and "vanity" strength with its hyper-sized muscles that look great but don't accomplish much.  I've known several Gym Rats that could benchpress about 300 pounds, but were often laid up with pulled muscles and other injuries.  I even had a guy in his early 30's that worked for me who worked out often and looked like the God Adonis.  I asked him to help me move a heavy printer once and he refused saying he didn't want to risk pulling a muscle.  What good is that? 

Lex

[Raw Kyle]

I used to lift conventional weights but switched to kettlebells because it's more function oriented. I also do martial arts which is 100% functional and no vanity. The thing about martial arts is that you usually compete in weight classes, so unless you're unusually strong for your size it doesn't make much of a difference, but endurance can be very different between two people the same size.

[TheWayCreatesTheWarrior]

Yep! There's better info out there but this will have to do for now.  No need for insulin to metabolize fructose but don't go overboard because the liver turns fructose directly into triglycerides.

What are the differences in the way glucose and fructose are metabolized by the body?

Even though commonly consumed sugars provide basically the same number of calories, they are metabolized and used by the body in different ways. For instance, glucose from dietary sources is digested, absorbed, transported to the liver, and released into the general blood stream. Many tissues take up glucose from the blood to use for energy; this process requires insulin. Fructose is predominantly metabolized in the liver, but unlike glucose it does not require insulin to be used by the body.

Does fructose cause diabetes?

Diabetes is a disorder affecting the way the body produces and uses insulin and how it handles blood glucose. Insulin is essential for aiding glucose transport into cells. People with type I diabetes do not produce insulin, whereas those with type II diabetes either do not produce enough insulin or cannot efficiently use the insulin their bodies make. Factors such as overweight and obesity, lack of physical activity, and genetic predisposition all increase the risk for type II diabetes.
People with diabetes must pay attention to the amount of all carbohydrates—sugars and starches—they consume.

Because fructose does not increase blood glucose and does not require insulin, individuals with diabetes can often tolerate it better than other sugars. In fact, studies show that small amounts of oral fructose may actually improve glycemic control in people with diabetes.

http://www.ific.org/publications/qa/fructoseqa.cfm

sweet!(no pun intended  ), probably 99% of my carbs come from Berries.

[TheWayCreatesTheWarrior]

Is there a midway point between glucose driven and ketone driven metabolism? If I have to sacrifice explosive power for long term cardio I really don't know which way to go.

i dont think youd have to sacrifice one of them if you keep eating some carbs, alot of the guys that i see fight in the UFC seem to have incredible explosivness and great endurance as well, and i doubt they are in Ketosis, and they still maintain cardio.

i would recommend, pretty much like Lex said, to just maintain a low-carb approach, staying below 100grams(above 50grams works best for me), although ive never done MMA-style workouts, i do interval training as well as explosive training(sprints and whatnot) as well as typical weight-lifting, and i feel like i maintain an excellent anaerobic and aerobic capacity.

[Raw Kyle]

i dont think youd have to sacrifice one of them if you keep eating some carbs, alot of the guys that i see fight in the UFC seem to have incredible explosivness and great endurance as well, and i doubt they are in Ketosis, and they still maintain cardio.

i would recommend, pretty much like Lex said, to just maintain a low-carb approach, staying below 100grams(above 50grams works best for me), although ive never done MMA-style workouts, i do interval training as well as explosive training(sprints and whatnot) as well as typical weight-lifting, and i feel like i maintain an excellent anaerobic and aerobic capacity.

The thing about fighters cardio though is that it is only ever tested for 25 minutes. I would like to come as close as I could to the best of both worlds, being able to explosively perform for about 25 straight minutes with little fatigue, and also being able to aerobically perform (like a triathalon) for hours with little fatigue.

Nick Diaz for example does triathalons, but he does not look very explosive in his fights. I doubt he's in ketosis because he doesn't even eat meat (land meat that is, I believe he eats fish) but he seems to have sacrificed explosiveness for long term cardio.

[TheWayCreatesTheWarrior]

Nick Diaz for example does triathalons, but he does not look very explosive in his fights. I doubt he's in ketosis because he doesn't even eat meat (land meat that is, I believe he eats fish) but he seems to have sacrificed explosiveness for long term cardio.

yeah but he has a fierce confidence and some sweet accuracy. 
i still believe when he whooped Lawlers ass it was one of the best fights ive ever seen, just cause i doubt many people thought he had much of a chance, but he totally won, mostly, through mental cleverness. he's always been my favorite fighter to watch, even over GSP, just cause of his confidence.

[Raw Kyle]

Try to see if you can find a copy of The Ketogenic Diet: A Complete Guide for the Dieter and Practitioner by Lyle McDonald.  He's pretty much the Guru when it comes to the sports related aspects of the ketogenic diet and  how to implement a CKD so that you (in theory) have the best of both worlds.

I found this on googlebooks:
http://books.google.com/books?hl=en&id=JtCZBe-2XVIC&dq=The+Ketogenic+Diet:+A+Complete+Guide+for+the+Dieter+and+Practitioner+++by+Lyle+McDonald&printsec=frontcover&source=web&ots=dMJPh5BRAB&sig=Sut9f1_DrYVcI3m3wTmXNoY4Hvk&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=1&ct=result#PPA1,M1

[Satya]

Ya Da Man, Kyle!  Wow, all 323 pages of The Ketogenic Diet: A Complete Guide for the Dieter and Practitioner, by Lyle McDonald.  You just saved me 50 bucks!

[Elli]

I'm also of the understanding that running totally on fat for fuel is not a good strategy for longevity, but that a low carb ( 50g/day) or very low carb (less than 30g/day) diet that is high in fat but keeps the muscles and possibly the brain running on mostly glucose is more conducive to a longer life span.

Lex

I think Lex might be on the right track about this.

First of all, I would like members to know that I don't think dietary carbs are necessary by all means. There are many, including Lex and Inuits living few hours above me (yes, I'm in Canada ) who are in marvelous health without it. Every one on this forum knows that low carb, high fat, and preferably raw eating plan is lot superior. However, because there is no longterm study that compares levels of carbs, proteins, and fat that is optimal, we should be open minded about possibility of moderate amount of carbs of maybe 20-50g a day could be beneficial than no carbs at all despite the obvious harms they could do as well. As Lex mentioned in later post, life is all about trade-offs. Maybe carbs are so evil that we should do everything in our reach to eliminate them or maybe little bit of fructose is needed to metabolize dietary fats better. Those so called anti-oxidants are maybe indeed helpful that it may be worth eating few veggies and fruits or maybe the anti-nutrients in them do more harms than good. The point here is that because we're not the one who created the world, we would never know the absolute truth of one perfect diet that fits all.

I have an abusive history with carbs; I fear them and wanted to eliminate them from my life entirely. Unfortunately, I'm not as strong willed as Lex or Crag, so I tend to stay very low carb for few days then binge on carbs (..oh dear, I didn't want to admit this) when my muscles start to give out, I can't concentrate nor think clearly, and my sugar craving get so intense that I feel suicidal. So I have been doing CKD unintentionally, I suppose. I wish I could be more strict with myself that I would actually adapt my system to run on fatty acids and ketones, however, knowing that having a glucose-based metabolism may not be the end of the world makes me somewhat less miserable.

Interesting point is that Dr.K of optimal diet, who advocate very high fat eating plan, suggests enough carbs of 30-60g a day that will be used by brain, and good quality animal protein in moderate amount coupled with lots of animal fat. He insists that too much protein strains the body and that his plans focus on optimal health and well-being of the individuals rather than just weight loss or muscle growth. He has apparently cured many diseases including cancer and many reported tremendous improvement in terms of their health. Is his plan superior to any other WOE including high-protein, VLC, or zero-carb? We don't know. But I'm trying to stay open-minded about possibility of moderate amount of carbs from good sources may be beneficial and Lex's comment about possibility of the brain running on mostly glucose is more conducive to a longer life span could be true as well.

[boxcarguy07]

I think Lex might be on the right track about this.

First of all, I would like members to know that I don't think dietary carbs are necessary by all means. There are many, including Lex and Inuits living few hours above me (yes, I'm in Canada ) who are in marvelous health without it. Every one on this forum knows that low carb, high fat, and preferably raw eating plan is lot superior. However, because there is no longterm study that compares levels of carbs, proteins, and fat that is optimal, we should be open minded about possibility of moderate amount of carbs of maybe 20-50g a day could be beneficial than no carbs at all despite the obvious harms they could do as well. As Lex mentioned in later post, life is all about trade-offs. Maybe carbs are so evil that we should do everything in our reach to eliminate them or maybe little bit of fructose is needed to metabolize dietary fats better. Those so called anti-oxidants are maybe indeed helpful that it may be worth eating few veggies and fruits or maybe the anti-nutrients in them do more harms than good. The point here is that because we're not the one who created the world, we would never know the absolute truth of one perfect diet that fits all.

I have an abusive history with carbs; I fear them and wanted to eliminate them from my life entirely. Unfortunately, I'm not as strong willed as Lex or Crag, so I tend to stay very low carb for few days then binge on carbs (..oh dear, I didn't want to admit this) when my muscles start to give out, I can't concentrate nor think clearly, and my sugar craving get so intense that I feel suicidal. So I have been doing CKD unintentionally, I suppose. I wish I could be more strict with myself that I would actually adapt my system to run on fatty acids and ketones, however, knowing that having a glucose-based metabolism may not be the end of the world makes me somewhat less miserable.

Interesting point is that Dr.K of optimal diet, who advocate very high fat eating plan, suggests enough carbs of 30-60g a day that will be used by brain, and good quality animal protein in moderate amount coupled with lots of animal fat. He insists that too much protein strains the body and that his plans focus on optimal health and well-being of the individuals rather than just weight loss or muscle growth. He has apparently cured many diseases including cancer and many reported tremendous improvement in terms of their health. Is his plan superior to any other WOE including high-protein, VLC, or zero-carb? We don't know. But I'm trying to stay open-minded about possibility of moderate amount of carbs from good sources may be beneficial and Lex's comment about possibility of the brain running on mostly glucose is more conducive to a longer life span could be true as well.

I just wanted to say I thought this was a great post!
Welcome to the forum Elli! 

[Raw Kyle]

I concur, good post. For now it doesn't seem like the immense trade offs (mostly the discipline and discomfort) of going zero carb is for me. My sport is more anaerobic anyway so I'm probably better off doing cycled ketogenics. I haven't read the book yet.

[wodgina]

Sugar cravings can be very very serious, there's no doubt it and going off sugar should not be taken lightly, the effect emotionally and physically is strong.

Do what you have to do with your diet and be careful.

[Elli]

I'm quite underweight; this may has to do with the severe sugar craving since
my set point is probably above my actual weight and that my body wants to
store more fat. And of course it knows what is needed to gain body fat rapidly!

Very low carb, though I prefer it very much, leaves me with no energy and
I can't think clearly. Even my vision gets very blurry. I know I have to give it
at least few weeks for the body to make transition and adjustments, however,
it certainly is a struggle. Hope I had the willpower

[wodgina]

I was just watching a documentary on the Boston marathon and they mentioned a 150 pound woman will only burn 2600 calories over the whole marathon!

Also to all carnivores, how far into a run do you feel you get past the first wall and into that second wind feeling? I get it pretty quick although I don't seem to run very often at the moment, I hit my stride early on and feel pretty good..
My explosive paddling is really struggling though, I feel like I have a lot of work ahead of me to rebuild muscle.