Salt / Hydrochloric acid

[Nicola]

I was and am still wondering about our need for salt and how the body makes "hydrochloric acid". This is an answer I got from Peter's "Hyperlipid Blogg" (vet):

Nicola said...
Hi Peter,

It is said that we need extra salt to digest cooked meat / protein.
I don't know for shore and when I ask others some believe we need salt but don't know for shore. Those following a raw meat diet claim that salt is not needed.

How do animals on a natural diet of raw meat make hydrochloric acid?

 Peter said...
Nicola,

I'm not really sure where the question comes from. As I understand it the enzyme carbonic anhydrase splits H2CO3 in parietal cells to give a bicarbonate ion (which ends up in the plasma pool in exchange for a chloride ion) and an H+ ion which is pumped in to the gastric lumen with the Cl- ion. The bicarbonate ion, as NaHCO3, is used to neutralise the HCl in the small intestine giving NaCl. NaCl is easily absorbed from the intestine. I can see no net loss of sodium or chloride here. So is the cooked meat supposed to be doing something to this cycle which raw meat doesn't?

Beyond me.

BTW extracellular fluid is sodium and chloride rich, there is a fair amount in meat, especially if you drink the gravy. Our kidneys have phenomenal powers of sodium retention on a zero added salt diet. Serious sodium disturbance is fatal. I spend half my life pouring salty water of assorted compositions in to the veins of patients in which the control system has gone wrong for various reasons.

Peter

 Nicola said...
Hello Peter,

The real human diet is a totally carnivorous one...but when it comes to salt?

http://tinyurl.com/6kouyp

http://tinyurl.com/589yul

Do you believe/know if raw or cooked meat needs extra salt for our body to produce hydrochloric acid and meet all body needs?

Nicola

 Peter said...
I would agree that it is possible to be healthy eating a totally carnivorous diet but I personally doubt very much that it has been the pattern for humans world wide.

To reject vegetable food complepetely would be too wasteful of available resources. This seems as contrarian as the vegan approach, except the full vegans do not seem to be healthy long term (not that I know any) unless they supplement, where as full carnivory allows this.

Re salt, digestion cycles salt. Those who suggest cooking increases total body salt requirement need a mechanism. Without that it smells like religion to me. Full carnovores are perfectly well able to extract the 160mmol of salt from extracellular fluid and a few more mmol from intracellular fluid. Zero sodium urine is well within the ability of humans, dogs and cats.

Where is the physiology to base the discussion around?

Peter


So how do you people understand Peter?

Nicola

[Satya]

Hi Nicola,

First off, I do hope that you have received permission from Peter to reproduce the email or comment exchange on this forum.  Also, it might help if we had a link to the exchange if it is part of his blog and not private email, as there may be more pertinent points to consider.

I agree with him that humans have probably been omnivorous historically, with varying degrees of plant to animal percentages.  That said, obviously some modern humans can thrive on an all animal diet.

I disagree with the salt comment, if I understand him correctly, mainly because he is not considering the sodium lost through sweating.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perspiration

"Sweat is not pure water; it always contains a small amount (0.2 - 1%) of solute. When a person moves from a cold climate to a hot climate, adaptive changes occur in their sweating mechanisms. This process is referred to as acclimatisation: the maximum rate of sweating increases and its solute composition decreases. The volume of water lost in sweat daily is highly variable, ranging from 100 to 8,000 mL/day. The solute loss can be as much as 350 mmol/day (or 90 mmol/day acclimatised) of sodium under the most extreme conditions. In a cool climate & in the absence of exercise, sodium loss can be very low (less than 5 mmols/day). Sodium concentration in sweat is 30-65 mmol/l, depending on the degree of acclimatisation."

[Nicola]

Hi Satya,

All I am doing is to try and work things out; we have discussions about "heart palpitation", "cramps", "digestion" and no answers.

So now I have to have a bad conscience for copying the question and answers from a vet, who has a grate blogg and is a cool person!!!

Let's look at the answer; I get heart palpitation in connection with salt. You sweat so you replace with salt, to sweat again.

We are not looking for "the right" or "the wrong" way to live/eat; natural animals have a healthy balance in nature - we have lost this nature and have found many (comfortable/unhealthy) replacements.

Peter's blogg:

http://high-fat-nutrition.blogspot.com/

and my questions and answers can be "tracked down" :...

https://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=36840063&postID=3196396413779800694

Nicola

[Satya]

So now I have to have a bad conscience for copying the question and answers from a vet, who has a grate blogg and is a cool person!!!

No, don't feel bad, especially since it is posted on his blog.  And thanks for the link, it helps out tremendously.  I will read the full text later.

I guess I am just thinking of consideration for Peter.  He might like to know that we are discussing his opinions over here, and that way, if he wishes to clarify the context of his remarks, or something like that, he is able.  That is all.

[Nicola]

I am still not shore about our need for salt - who has normal formed poo; never runny with bits of suet?

In 2006 Tyler mentions:

Well, Aajonus Vonderplanitz, the nutritionist behind the Primal Diet, tends to take a very harsh line on salt in both of his Primal Diet books, as it raises blood-pressure etc.. I've  usually been recommended to eat tomatoes  instead for the necessary sodium.

I would normally agree with Aajonus re the lack of a need for salt on a raw diet. However, these days I often go to the gym and use the sauna - since sweating is known to cause the loss of salts from the body, I've started taking very tiny amounts of salt with my raw meats to replace it(only a couple of pinches of salt every 3 days or so). However, I tend to react  rather badly to higher amounts of salt.

Obviously, it goes without saying that you should only buy non-chemically-processed sea-salt or rock-salt, and not the iodised table-salt that is usually sold. Personally, at the start of going raw, I preferred pepper and raw garlic for seasoning my meats, but, again, I found it much easier on my stomach, if I kept them to very small amounts.

I also found this page:

http://www.sunrisefarms.org/celticsalt.htm

Can some of you say how body/digestion works with salt vs. with out salt when just eating meat and fat (if you like a little fruit) = paleo diet?

Nicola