A lil' update.

[kurite]

Didn't have time to read up on all the replies but have you been lifting while low carb?

[TylerDurden]

nooo...cats fed exclusively FROZEN meat will develop problems later in life JUST like on cooked meat...that is why ALL recipes for frozen raw cat food stress the fact of putting taurine in it, and fish oil as well, and calcium  because they will get similar problems to cooked diet. Frozen meat may be "healthier" for you, but not for your cat. I personally like fresh or aged meat above frozen, and I prefer rare and preserved/salted/smoked over frozen. Even though for humans its ok.

  Please provide a link to a scientific study proving this assertion. Until today, I had not come across such a claim. A quick check online mentions someone who's been feeding their cats prefrozen raw meats for years without issues, and some comments stating that, while cooking has been proven to destroy taurine, that claims that freezing destroys taurine are still unproven.

I don't doubt that cats cannot handle meats that are very cold, but once thawed , they should not be an issue.

Here is another comment to a question re taurine and frozen meats, making a pertinent point:- "i Robin,

I don't know of any evidence that taurine should self-decompose or seriously react with air, for instance. It is generally classified as a stable chemical, under "normal" temperature and pressure. It does contain a sulphonic acid group in the molecule, though, and that makes it a fairly powerful oxidant. This means, it will react with flammable materials - and you won't find those in a freezer... :-) But freezing will not affect it. But if you heat it above body temperature, it can easily find other chemicals to react with, so in cooked foods, it will be destroyed.

It is opposite of what the case is for vitamin E, for instance. Vitamin E will react with oxygen in the air, and thus destroy itself.

In all principle, freezing will cause everything in chemistry to become LESS ACTIVE, because lower temperature simply is the same as less vibration and less rotation of chemical molecules. It makes everything MORE STABLE. "

http://www.voernatuurlijk.nl/forum/viewtopic.php?t=16903

[ForTheHunt]

Didn't have time to read up on all the replies but have you been lifting while low carb?

Not low carb. Either high fat or raw carb.

[ForTheHunt]

 I previously came across this reference:- "Martin Short's character Uncle Jack is based loosely on real-life 90-year-old fitness guru Jack LaLanne. Speech mannerisms, style of dress, and even the dyed jet-black hair are all trademarks of LaLanne, who, unlike Short's character, remains extremely mobile and agile at the time of this episode's airing." from:-

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0367279/trivia

As for the open-heart surgery, I recall Schwarzenegger also being forced to  have some similiar form of heart operation. Not sure, but I think some suggested, at the time, that it was due to S's past steroid abuse or some such.

No. Like I said. Most people who have heart valve surgery are born with a defect. Schwarzenegger was born with a bicuspid aortic valve which is said defect.

Don't know why I bother arguing with you. Can't beat crazy.

[kurite]

Have you tried 50% fruit and the rest from animal protein and fat? It seems to work for me.

[ForTheHunt]

Have you tried 50% fruit and the rest from animal protein and fat? It seems to work for me.

Yeah, I tried it for weeks. It gives me indigestion, doesn't go well together in the same day for me

[yuli]

@TD its common knowledge, you MUST add taurine to frozen meat and taurine reduces drastically in meat by freezing. I am not going to find specific comment and studies I have no time now, I joined the "rawcat" yahoo group and of course people there supplement with fresh meats and taurine, every cat lover knows to do it. You can supplement with fresh heart as well thats high in taurine. Many people do that.
Some cats may be ok eating frozen meat only, many cats are ok on high grade commercial foods too (like the expensive grain-free ones), so what, for every claim you find that a cat can eat all frozen without supplements I'll find you plenty that they can live fine from grain-free commercial food, but no one feeds all frozen without supplementing, if you wanna try it with your cat go ahead, I wouldn't, my cats get fresh meat, and cooked or frozen meat as treats only.

[TylerDurden]

@TD its common knowledge, you MUST add taurine to frozen meat and taurine reduces drastically in meat by freezing. I am not going to find specific comment and studies I have no time now, I joined the "rawcat" yahoo group and of course people there supplement with fresh meats and taurine, every cat lover knows to do it. You can supplement with fresh heart as well thats high in taurine. Many people do that.
Some cats may be ok eating frozen meat only, many cats are ok on high grade commercial foods too (like the expensive grain-free ones), so what, for every claim you find that a cat can eat all frozen without supplements I'll find you plenty that they can live fine from grain-free commercial food, but no one feeds all frozen without supplementing, if you wanna try it with your cat go ahead, I wouldn't, my cats get fresh meat, and cooked or frozen meat as treats only.

Well, clearly some do and have fed their cats on only frozen meats, given mention thereof online. I suspect this is an urban legend. Even some sites making a vague claim re taurine and frozen meats seem to be sure that freezing only degrades part of the taurine, unlike cooking. Well, it's an interesting matter, so I will ask some prey-model-oriented experts re this issue. maybe I'll get a response in a few days.

[TylerDurden]

Seems there are plenty of prey model experts for dogs, but no easy way to ask questions re cats and prey model diets. All I can find are vague comments about freezing not degrading taurine to any appreciable extent, and the point about raw, ground meat enabling taurine to degrade rapidly, due to oxidation.

[kurite]

Yeah, I tried it for weeks. It gives me indigestion, doesn't go well together in the same day for me

Im assuming you were mono-ing? I always make sure I only eat meat about 45 minutes to an hour after a fruit meal. And if i eat meat I wont eat fruit for 3-4 hours after. Otherwise my stomach hurts! If you have tried both of those I guess your body just wants starch, nothing wrong with that.

[RawZi]

    Cats and dogs need bone meal added to their meat: http://www.caberfeidh.com/NaturalDiet.htm   
    Cats need arachidic acid http://www.annualreviews.org/doi/abs/10.1146%2Fannurev.nu.04.070184.002513
    Cats should not have more than 1.50% "units dry matter basis" in their food of methionine.
    Cats should not have more than 2000 "units dry matter basis" in their food of zinc.
    Cats should not have more than 750000 "units dry matter basis" in their food of vit a. Their A should also be animal based.
    Cats should not have more than 10000 "units dry matter basis" in their food basis of vit d. Their D should also be animal based.
    All cats need dietary taurine to live a normal length lifespan.  Humans only have to have it with certain heart and nerve conditions. 
    Cats should avoid being given fresh water fish, it can be low in vit b1 or thiamine (similar to PD for humans all advised not to eat fresh water fish started several years ago).
    They don't need as much carbs or fat to eat as we do. Cats also need to eat certain organ meats more than we need to.
    Excellent info: http://rawmeatcatfood.com/category/cat-nutrition/page/2/ I don't fully agree, but I'm no expert.

cats fed exclusively FROZEN meat will develop problems later in life JUST like on cooked meat...that is why ALL recipes for frozen raw cat food stress the fact of putting taurine in it, and fish oil as well, and calcium  because they will get similar problems to cooked diet. Frozen meat may be "healthier" for you, but not for your cat. I personally like fresh or aged meat

    Cats have a number of needs nutritionally different than most people.  Also, fewer felines live in arctic environments that canines and humans.  Maybe that's why we may do better on frozen meats than them.  I don't eat frozen meats (as per PD).  I bought some nice halal pasture raised chicken a while back, and something happened to my fridge and it froze it.  I didn't want to try frozen, so I gave it to my cats.  They wouldn't eat it either.  We and dogs can eat aged meats and may even prefer or do better on aged meats.  Cats prefer fresh meat. 

[yuli]

Thanks for the links, I notice most of the cat "recipes" concentrate on grinding and blending it all into mush. Its nutritious but doesn't allow them to use their teeth, I often just give my cats large pieces, either half a fresh chicken leg, or very large meat chunks, this has the benefit of allowing them to exercise and clean their teeth - which is very important. My female cat throws up easily (shes been like that all her life), she is very small, eats fast, never chews and will sometimes (not always) throw up right after eating, this happens when she eats raw meat too fast too. But she rarely does that when I feed her large chunks, cause she can't inhale them so fast! I think something happens when they are chewing and working their teeth and saliva instead of just inhaling a rawmeat fudge, I think its good to alternate, give them ground mush with all the supplements and then give them big fresh chunks for their next meal, I love seeing them chew and rip at it too... 
I use eggshells instead of the bonemeal, my male cat has been getting very muscly and shiny lately, they both love the raw meat by now, as long as its fresh or even slightly aged. If its good meat they will eat it even after it has sat out in my room for a day and dried a bit.
On the rawcat group, I see mostly people feeding large whole chunks, like whole chicken legs and whole baby chicks!

[RawZi]

Thanks for the links, I notice most of the cat "recipes" concentrate on grinding and blending it all into mush. Its nutritious but doesn't allow them to use their teeth, I often just give my cats large pieces, either half a fresh chicken leg ...On the rawcat group, I see mostly people feeding large whole chunks, like whole chicken legs and whole baby chicks!

    Like I said, I don't agree with it all.  There were other parts like that too.  I'm writing recipes for all the family tonight.  I'm leaving the cats out.  I don't believe recipes are really good for them.

[Hannibal]

In the northern regions eating prefrozen meat is 100% natural.
Right now it's -8 degrees C outside my house, so how do you imagine eating only fresh meat in paleo times?  

[majormark]

Regarding the "natural color" of Jack Lalanne hair...

From this video, it looks like Jack's hair is actually somewhat gray:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iEdClu1KeC8