What Vitamins Are Absolutely Essential??

[magnetic]

I have reading a good deal about vitamins lately, and I have started tracking my nutrition totals, as best as I can, here:

http://nutritiondata.self.com/

Now, there are some problems, such as the fact that there is no food for grass-fed lamb (what I have been eating the last month).  However, if you look here:

http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/lamb-veal-and-game-products/4693/2

All the way at the bottom is the analysis for fats and fatty acids, which drops down and voila, omega-6 and omega-3.  The ratio is 3.24:1, which is probably near what it should be for grass fed domesticated meat, correct?  So I suppose it is useful for me after all.

Here is my current dilemma.  You can track a daily total, which I did for 28oz. of ground lamb.  I am also eating organ meats and other cuts, but I chose just ground lamb for simplicity. 

What startles me are all of the holes if you scroll down to the daily values chart.  There are deficiencies for:

Vitamin A
Vitamin C
Vitamin E (Alpha Tocopherol)
Vitamin K
Thiamin (only slight)
Vitamin B6 (only slight)
Folate

And the minerals:
Calcium
Magnesium
Potassium
Sodium
Copper (only slight)
Manganese

I am trying to figure out how these deficiencies are met, if they are met at all.  Obviously I am getting added nutrients from raw bone marrow, heart, liver, kidneys.  But will it be enought to fill these gaps? 

Now I know that the RDA values can't be taken for face value, some may be needed only in much smaller quantities while others may be entirely unnecessary.  But I would like to get the big picture so I can explain to others how meat can meet all or most of the body's nutritional requirements.  Also, while I am eating fruit at the moment I am interested in eating less carbs and more meat.

[laterade]

IMO targeting vitamin and mineral levels is of no use.
Continue eating a variety of real food and things will undoubtedly get better.

[magnetic]

Okay, so I think a large factor in the IF rating is the amount of Vitamin C, as lamb lungs, brain and kidneys are all quite anti-inflammatory, and they are the only organs with significant Vitamin C content...

[magnetic]

IMO targeting vitamin and mineral levels is of no use.
Continue eating a variety of real food and things will undoubtedly get better.

I agree with you, however I have an inquiring mind and want to get to the root of this whole RDA thing.  I suspect a good amount is based on bad science, or politics, or both.  I cannot quiet my inner scientist.   

[kurite]

Liver almost fills the gap for all the vitamins that you missed. It is basically the most nutrient dense food you can eat. Also theres a lot of data pointing out that huge amounts of calcium even from raw paleo sources are not good for bone health.

[laterade]

I agree with you, however I have an inquiring mind and want to get to the root of this whole RDA thing.  I suspect a good amount is based on bad science, or politics, or both.  I cannot quiet my inner scientist.  

I think it is a rat race. There is validity to is for sure, but the solution is very simple.

Liver almost fills the gap for all the vitamins that you missed. It is basically the most nutrient dense food you can eat.

I agree, add in heart, tongue, eggs, and maybe some veggies and there is nothing to worry about, ever.

[magnetic]

Liver almost fills the gap for all the vitamins that you missed. It is basically the most nutrient dense food you can eat. Also theres a lot of data pointing out that huge amounts of calcium even from raw paleo sources are not good for bone health.

Yeah, I have discovered that both factually and physically!  I love liver, it always gives me a big boost.  But I have checked liver against what the RDA lists as deficient and it misses many gaps.  Also, liver has little vitamin C.  However, I have so far come up with Brain, Kidney, Lungs, Pancreas and Spleen as excellent sources of vitamin C.  

Liver has Vitamin A, Vitamin B6, Folate and Copper, which are lacking in muscle meats.

The gaps that I cannot fill with any cut of lamb are:

Vitamin E (Alpha Tocopherol)
Vitamin K
Thiamin (only slight)

and minerals

Calcium
Magnesium
Potassium
Sodium
Manganese

As you pointed out, I think that it may be the case that only the moderate amounts of Calcium in meat may be necessary for good health.  But what about the other vitamins and minerals?  

There is very little Vitamin E or Vitamin K in any meat products that I could find.  Is there another source or are they also only required in small amounts?  Why are the recommended amounts as high as they are?

[magnetic]

I think it is a rat race. There is validity to is for sure, but the solution is very simple.
I agree, add in heart, tongue, eggs, and maybe some veggies and there is nothing to worry about, ever.

As I mentioned, I am not eating only meat, but I am curious what the nutritional profile looks like.  I did a profile for my current diet, where I eat fruit in the morning and meat the rest of the day and the results were through the roof in almost every category, while at the same time it said I was eating hundreds of calories less than my body requires!

That made me think that my metabolism must be different than normal because how could I be eating until I am stuffed at each meal but not eating the "required" calories, and not be losing weight?  Crazy!

[CHK91]

Vitamin A: Livers will provide you 100% RDA in one ounce. Amazing, really.
Vitamin C: Certain organs have this vitamin in good quantity when raw. Fruits obviously will always have the advantage here.
Vitamin E: Your need will be variable here. If you avoid highly unsaturated fats, your need will be less. Grass fed meats will have much more E.
Vitamin K: Now... This is probably more tricky to get. Fermented foods tend to have more of these in the superior K2 form. You can get it from egg yolks, cheeses(If you insist on dairy.), and I would assume fermented meat would have it, but I'm not sure about this. No data is available on K2 content of spoiled meat. There is a lot of K1 in leafy greens.
Thiamine: If you eat meat in high quantities, you should meet the requirements. Kidneys and livers are good sources. If you have no squeamishness about eating raw pork/boar, you could eat them as the muscle meat is high in thiamine.
Vitamin B6: Eating enough meat/organs should give you no problem in getting enough. Eating over 300g of muscle/organ should meet the requirement.
Folate: It is not found in good quantities in muscle meat. You should eat organs often to keep up. Egg yolks are also a good source.

Calcium needs are overestimated. There is no way one can get 1000mg of calcium without copious dairy consumption, which is not recommended.
Magnesium: Grass fed/healthy animals will likely have more of this mineral. Keep in mind minerals are more bioavailable in meats than in plants. Also, plants have antinutrients that inhibit absorption of minerals besides magnesium. Without these antinutrients and the bioavailability of the mineral, you probably would not need as much as others would.
Sodium: Need will vary. Keep in mind that in a ketogenic state there is accelerated sodium loss. This will manifest as dehydration despite drinking a lot fluids and muscle cramps. Blood provides sodium/potassium in proper ratios. Unfortunately, this is not a commonly sold item. There are some here that seem to be against added salt to the diet, but it can be an option if you feel deficient while on an extremely low carb diet. Just use celtic sea salt and not refined BS. In my experience adding celtic sea salt to my water has been more hydrating than plain.
Copper: Lower copper in my opinion is a good thing, but if you want a good source liver will provide a LOT. Too much maybe to eat regularly in fact.

[kurite]

As I mentioned, I am not eating only meat, but I am curious what the nutritional profile looks like.  I did a profile for my current diet, where I eat fruit in the morning and meat the rest of the day and the results were through the roof in almost every category, while at the same time it said I was eating hundreds of calories less than my body requires!

That made me think that my metabolism must be different than normal because how could I be eating until I am stuffed at each meal but not eating the "required" calories, and not be losing weight?  Crazy!

Because for the first time in your life your body knows what it wants and it what quantities is necessary.

Vitamin E (Alpha Tocopherol) - Berries, greens, papaya, almonds
Vitamin K -  Greens have huge amounts of vitamin k, even an oz of it is enough.
Thiamin (only slight) Don't know too much about it but you can probably google it quickly.

and minerals

Calcium- As I said not needed as in large amounts as RDA specifies.
Magnesium- Again greens and nuts/seeds and in lesser amounts in certain organ meats.
Potassium- A lot of fruits have plenty of it, so does kidney, also the RDA is a maximum not a minimum
Sodium Once again a max not a min and theres waaaaay to much sodium in a SAD diet anyway.
Manganese - Abuundant in plenty of fruits

[magnetic]

Vitamin A: Livers will provide you 100% RDA in one ounce. Amazing, really.
Vitamin C: Certain organs have this vitamin in good quantity when raw. Fruits obviously will always have the advantage here.
Vitamin E: Your need will be variable here. If you avoid highly unsaturated fats, your need will be less. Grass fed meats will have much more E.
Vitamin K: Now... This is probably more tricky to get. Fermented foods tend to have more of these in the superior K2 form. You can get it from egg yolks, cheeses(If you insist on dairy.), and I would assume fermented meat would have it, but I'm not sure about this. No data is available on K2 content of spoiled meat. There is a lot of K1 in leafy greens.
Thiamine: If you eat meat in high quantities, you should meet the requirements. Kidneys and livers are good sources. If you have no squeamishness about eating raw pork/boar, you could eat them as the muscle meat is high in thiamine.
Vitamin B6: Eating enough meat/organs should give you no problem in getting enough. Eating over 300g of muscle/organ should meet the requirement.
Folate: It is not found in good quantities in muscle meat. You should eat organs often to keep up. Egg yolks are also a good source.

Calcium needs are overestimated. There is no way one can get 1000mg of calcium without copious dairy consumption, which is not recommended.
Magnesium: Grass fed/healthy animals will likely have more of this mineral. Keep in mind minerals are more bioavailable in meats than in plants. Also, plants have antinutrients that inhibit absorption of minerals besides magnesium. Without these antinutrients and the bioavailability of the mineral, you probably would not need as much as others would.
Sodium: Need will vary. Keep in mind that in a ketogenic state there is accelerated sodium loss. This will manifest as dehydration despite drinking a lot fluids and muscle cramps. Blood provides sodium/potassium in proper ratios. Unfortunately, this is not a commonly sold item. There are some here that seem to be against added salt to the diet, but it can be an option if you feel deficient while on an extremely low carb diet. Just use celtic sea salt and not refined BS. In my experience adding celtic sea salt to my water has been more hydrating than plain.
Copper: Lower copper in my opinion is a good thing, but if you want a good source liver will provide a LOT. Too much maybe to eat regularly in fact.

Thanks for the suggestions!  I am continually making little adjustments to my diet, I will try some suggestions and see what works.

Re sodium/potassium, my potassium continually runs much higher than my sodium.  Could this be a problem in the long run??

I am eating zero vegetables because of antinutrients, I don't want to cook and I don't like them!  So it sounds like all of my nutrient requirements will be met with either meat or meat/fruit combo, assuming I don't need much calcium or vitamin E, and the other minerals.  

Interestingly, there are fruits that are high in vitamin K: avocado, grapes and kiwi!  I have been eating grapes and avocado over the last month, so whether or not I need it I have been getting it.  2 large kiwis provides 100% of vitamin K for me.

I have found that I drink much less water now that my food contains so much water, whether it is fresh fruit or raw meat.  The site I referenced above gives you the amount of water in your daily totals, I think I am getting most of the water I need in my food.  I used to drink water compulsively but now I wait until I am thirsty.

Yes liver is like a miracle food, I was lucky enough to get several with my lamb as other buyers didn't ask for any organ meats with their lambs.   But I am upset that they threw out some organs, next time I will specify every one just to make sure that they are saved.  I am getting blood also.

Incidentally, I was read that waterskins can be made from the bladder.  Does anyone know if there is a site online that describes the process?

[magnetic]

Thiamin (only slight) Don't know too much about it but you can probably google it quickly.

Yeast extract is extremely high in thiamin.  Wonder what I would do with that.

Calcium- As I said not needed as in large amounts as RDA specifies.

That's what I think.

Magnesium- Again greens and nuts/seeds and in lesser amounts in certain organ meats.
Potassium- A lot of fruits have plenty of it, so does kidney, also the RDA is a maximum not a minimum
Sodium Once again a max not a min and theres waaaaay to much sodium in a SAD diet anyway.
Manganese - Abuundant in plenty of fruits

Magnesium is low but probably sufficient to not have to hunt down other sources as long as I eat a variety of meats. 

So it comes down to certain fruits if I decide I should obtain more Vitamin K, Vitamin C and Magnesium.

[miles]

Okay, so I think a large factor in the IF rating is the amount of Vitamin C, as lamb lungs, brain and kidneys are all quite anti-inflammatory, and they are the only organs with significant Vitamin C content...

Spleen has by far the most Vitamin C of the Major Organs... About 90% RDA per 100g. Vitamin C is also in Kidneys, Heart, Lungs and Liver, as well as glands such as Adrenals and Thymus.

Liver almost fills the gap for all the vitamins that you missed. It is basically the most nutrient dense food you can eat.

What is this? I don't even...

[magnetic]

Spleen has by far the most Vitamin C of the Major Organs... About 90% RDA per 100g. Vitamin C is also in Kidneys, Heart, Lungs and Liver, as well as glands such as Adrenals and Thymus.

Actually lung has more vitamin C, looking at the nutrition data:

Spleen
http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/lamb-veal-and-game-products/4683/2

Lung
http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/lamb-veal-and-game-products/4674/2

It is the highest I have come across.

[miles]

What is this? I don't even..

Actually lung has more vitamin C, looking at the nutrition data:

Actually spleen has more vitamin C, looking at the nutrition data:

http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/beef-products/3476/2

http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/beef-products/3471/2

Beef>Lamb

[magnetic]

What is this? I don't even..

Actually spleen has more vitamin C, looking at the nutrition data:

http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/beef-products/3476/2

http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/beef-products/3471/2

Beef>Lamb

That's a close race.   

If I had both I might get out the meat grinder and mix them together for a vitamin C mega meat mix.