What's your idea of a perfect society?

[SkinnyDevil]

I think one of my favorite anecdotes about having a conversation with a libertarian (raw fooder, but not to typecast ALL libertarians of course) was similar. I asked him if within a libertarian (say world) system, if any group of people could create a democratic representation based system within that as a sort of mini state, particularly if their situation was not working per their needs. He said of course not, that would be illegal as it is immoral.

Your friend is wrong.

That is exactly the argument that explains why (I'm being extreme to make the point) an individualist-anarchy is morally (& pragmatically) superior to a collectivist-anarchy. To wit: There is no way for an individualist model to exist within the framework of a collectivist model; however, a within an individualist model, individuals are free to set up collectives.

Similarly, within a libertarian (or even quasi-libertarian) model, groups are free to form co-operatives of all kinds. That is a cornerstone of libertarian thought - so long as the group consists of individuals who freely join (are not coerced of forced to become members), they can start, join, & leave any group they wish; set up their own rules; and the like. Even socialist (or other collectivist) groups.

Hence the moral & pragmatic superiority of individualist systems to collectivist systems.

You can't opt out of collectivism, and by it's very nature, collectivist systems DE-crease (rather than IN-crease) individual choice & liberty.

[majormark]

Gary Johnson is the only example that comes to mind in terms of the executive office (though there may be smaller-scale examples of mayors who are libertarian or libertarian-leaning).

However, at the national level, there are 2 groups of interest.
...

It would be interesting if any of those groups grab some significant power. However, changing things at the national level, would be much harder.

Many politicians today (even in my country) talk about reducing the size of the state because they probably realize it's not going to last forever.

Here's an interesting read of what happens when government tries to influence the free market:
http://mises.org/midroad.asp

[majormark]

... This is where my anger stems from, no matter who you are or what you believe in you just can run against the type of machine that is in place, and expect to be effective, there are forces greater than the heart of the people at play.

I think this is actually the wrong attitude to have, because being angry about something only consumes your energy in vain. Not really productive.

There IS something you can do right now and that is to live with moral integrity. This also means to stop associating with people that have self contradictory beliefs which do not agree with the non-aggression principle. Ask them, face to face: "Do you support the use of violence against me if I choose not to pay takes to support a war/law x,y,z, etc?". If enough people will start doing that, the concept of a state will become history. The state is just an effect of people's willingness to attack each other ("divide et impera" comes to mind).

The real progress begins on the personal level and nobody is going to do that for you.

[SkinnyDevil]

The real progress begins on the personal level and nobody is going to do that for you.

Well said.

[sabertooth]

I am about as fond of uplifting proactive rhetoric as the next man.

My attitude may not be at its best when I try to express the total despondency I feel towards the state of affairs, But I assure you I have taken a personal stance against the injustice that righteously angers me. Anger is healthy and natural so long as it has constructive outlets and is based on real grievance.

I talk to people about issues that matter, the quality of the food is piss poor; the quality of education is abominable, we have such great technology that is being stolen from the people and put on some shelf in order to produce artificial scarcity and monopoly's over resources. I can see the far off calamity's and the very real possibility of a new dark age.

Deep down I often get discouraged and feel that all is in vain and the motions of the living society are as beyond my ability to influence as the movements of the stars ( a fatalistic disposition has always haunted my aspirations) I am personally outspoken and speak out to all who will listen, Its very discouraging to have to bare falsehood after falsehood being uttered by good natured but ill informed people, and I feel obligated to wake up the poor fools of the world , only if I had better means to do so.  

[pioneer]

I am about as fond of uplifting proactive rhetoric as the next man.

My attitude may not be at its best when I try to express the total despondency I feel towards the state of affairs, But I assure you I have taken a personal stance against the injustice that righteously angers me. Anger is healthy and natural so long as it has constructive outlets and is based on real grievance.

I talk to people about issues that matter, the quality of the food is piss poor; the quality of education is abominable, we have such great technology that is being stolen from the people and put on some shelf in order to produce artificial scarcity and monopoly's over resources. I can see the far off calamity's and the very real possibility of a new dark age.

Deep down I often get discouraged and feel that all is in vain and the motions of the living society are as beyond my ability to influence as the movements of the stars ( a fatalistic disposition has always haunted my aspirations) I am personally outspoken and speak out to all who will listen, Its very discouraging to have to bare falsehood after falsehood being uttered by good natured but ill informed people, and I feel obligated to wake up the poor fools of the world , only if I had better means to do so.  

And the thing is, we are not all alone, turns out I just met a good friend last week who has all the beliefs as me and knows all the info we know, saw the red pill, and many G. Edward Griffin movies, knows how the US dollar really is not money but just a federal reserve note. Thats what we should be calling them from now on, and anyone who asks why? we'll just tell them "because it is made out of thin air by a privately owned bank, and is not backed by anything valuable such as gold or silver". Then, people may start to wonder.

[sabertooth]

Its truly astonishing how the intelligent minded working poor and white colloar workers are still so totally unaware of the total corruption at the global monetary systems they live under. Its seems almost deliberate that most people don't study to much about the nature of money. The middle class of the western nations seem to be isolated from the pillaging of the money Masters and are content to receive their kickbacks and live there yuppy existence as gatekeepers that act as a curtain for the money manipulators to hide behind. My own father has a masters in biology and owns his own business and is mortgaged up to the neck, and yet He doesn't even comprehend the way the federal reserve and other banks create counterfit fiat money that steals wealth from those who actually try to earn an honest living and funnels it directly into the coffers of forgen banking dynasty's.

Robert Heinlein was a science fiction writer and a true prodigy who thought out alternative financial systems that were designed to provide real prosperity to the working people while keeping the money vultures at bay.  His book "Stranger in a Strange Land" is a good introduction to his utopia.
His wit and Amoral attitudes are refreshing

Don't ever become a pessimist... a pessimist is correct oftener than an optimist, but an optimist has more fun, and neither can stop the march of events.

I am free, no matter what rules surround me. If I find them tolerable, I tolerate them; if I find them too obnoxious, I break them. I am free because I know that I alone am morally responsible for everything I do.

Robert A. Heinlein

[majormark]

I liked this one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ngpsJKQR_ZE&feature=player_embedded

[SkinnyDevil]

Nice video.

[majormark]

Really interesting video about the inefficiency/corruption of a government system:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=064YTtSxVSo

Looks like Mises Institute has a lot of those.

[proteus]

oh well here is my article on a perfect society:

http://www.diy-av.net/?p=36