Amount of Fat to Maintain Weight or LOSE? Whats the latest consensus?

[riy freeman]

OK, so when I first embarked on ZC, I held the assumption that I need not be afraid of consuming any amount of fat (in the form of beef backfat) and weight/adipose gain wouldn't be an issue. I figured appetite would guide my instincts on when to stop eating and such.

I tried it both ways, high fat and moderate protein, and moderate fat and higher protein. Here's what I found:

High fat/ moderate protein: WEIGHT GAIN. But great sustained energy. Body deviates from being lean.
Amount eaten (probably 1/4 pound fat to up to 1 pound chuck meat)

High protein/ lower fat: Weight gain also.... because I ended up eating a lot more meat because my appetite wasn't fulfilled as quickly. Eenergy did not last as well throughout the day.
Amount eaten (probably 1/7 pound fat to up to 2 pounds chuck meat)

If I eat NO meat and STRAIGHT fat, I can only stomach about 1/7-1/8 pound maybe? It doesn't taste too good by itself and appetite is killed fairly quickly. Perhaps I should eat fat until my appetiete is slightly killed, then consume the meat?

Bottom line is, I'm wondering what the latest agreed general consensus is on fat and meat ratio... There are some contradictory info in the Journals... For example, Lex states high fat causes weight gain for him. Kristel's journal begins by reflecting the same opinion, but then her last posts before she went inactive in 2008 states she advocates HIGH fat.

My experience with raw paleo ZC has been weight gain ONLY, I have not lost any weight at all... I don't really like to keep gaining endlessly if it it isn't lean mass. Am I just eating too many calories? WHat do I need to do to get a balance between energy and relative leanness?

Any inputs appreciated...

[klowcarb]

I have been ZC for 2 years. I'm 5'4", 108 lbs., 15% bodyfat (for a woman). I'm very lean.

I count calories. It is fun. I do not EVER trust appetite, and I have zero interest in listening to my body. Try using fitday.

[CHK91]

I count calories. It is fun. I do not EVER trust appetite, and I have zero interest in listening to my body.

Same here.

[jessica]

Quote from: klowcarb on Today at 03:29:33 am
 I have zero interest in listening to my body.

Same here.

this is sad

[alycia]

KLOWCARB-

I have been ZC for 2 years. I'm 5'4", 108 lbs., 15% bodyfat (for a woman). I'm very lean. I count calories. It is fun. I do not EVER trust appetite, and I have zero interest in listening to my body. Try using fitday.

[/td][/tr][/table][/glow]

What does your daily food intake look like? 
what do you eat, how much, calories etc...
sense you count your cal's 
I have been easing my way into this and have gained weight in the past on more of a cooked version of this diet - i felt and looked terrible.  i am 5'2, but still pretty close to your size.

[Ioanna]

is there still a benefit of zc to you?

if i eat too much fat on a regular basis, which i did trying to listen to what is the 'correct fat/protein ratio', then i'll feel that i'm losing leanness and eat less fat for a few days. so yeah, i think it's entirely possible to be gaining weight on zc.  sometimes i eat pretty low fat, sometimes just regular 65%-ish, and occasionally i just crave a lot of fat and that will be a high fat day.  just go by what i feel like.  i don't count calories, i just know how i feel and how my clothes fit and judge by that.  mostly my weight is even, but if it goes up or down by even a couple pounds i feel it and make a change to either increase of decrease fat % for a day or two to get back on track.  mostly, i stay pretty even, though.  

but, yes, it's too many calories for you if you are gaining.  as for energy, i think that is just finding the percentage ratio that works for on a given day.  if i just eat high fat, but wasn't hungry for it, it feels heavy.  if i'm craving fat, i can eat a bunch and still feel light.  but then there are plenty of people who claim zc doesn't work for them energy-wise, so don't just be dogmatic about it.  fwiw, the energy issue never phased me.. for better or worse.  

[RawZi]

    I have to eat nearly all fat to lose weight.  I've never tried ZC for an extensive time though.  I don't know about generalizing.  I find differences among people.

[michaelwh]

It's unlikely that you will keep gaining endlessly. You will probably reach a certain equilibrium that your body is happy with, and stay there. But that equilibrium may not be the "6-pack abs" that you see on the cover of Men's Fitness.

I've done experiments with over-eating, under-eating, over-exercising, and under-exercising, and I've come to the conclusion that it's very hard to force your body to carry less or more weight than it wants to.

As an aside, I think that having some extra fat is probably a good thing. When travelling, good-quality food is often hard to come by, so it's useful to be able to eat lightly or fast for an extended period of time.

Another thought -- maybe your appetite is abnormally high because you're missing some micronutrients. You could try adding more nutrient-dense foods such as shellfish, organs, CLO/BO, wild berries, and wild herbs into your diet. (If you're strict ZC, then disregard the last 2 on that list).

[Ioanna]

oh michael just reminded me.. when i eat organs, i get full very quickly (few hundred calories) and have no appetite for at least 24 hrs, sometimes more.

[riy freeman]

I'm trying like ultra high fat to protein ratio for a few days to see how I feel...

When I eat lots of fat along with the meat I don't have the urge to eat as much meat so....

Maybe the fat will keep my energy up and in some counter intuitive fashion I may end up eating total less calories this way?

I'm also eating my meat in bigger chunks since when I eat them in smaller chunks I feel like I could just keep on eating forever.

michaelwh- i understand your argument, but I still feel like a relatively lean individual is still healthier. I feel and move differently (in a good way) when I'm leaner... There has to be a way to achieve that through RPD...

Ioanna- how often do you eat organs?

klowcarb- how do you account for calories from backfat? I searched for it on fitday and it didn't have a category for raw fat...lol...

[FoxWoman]

When I was on zero-carb, my weight was the highest - about 10 pounds more than I usually weigh. I slowly gained that weight in the course of several months, and felt horrible on that diet - no energy, dizziness, etc. The percentage was about 20% to 30% protein and 80% to 70% fat. I lost that extra weight and regained my energy when I returned several fruits back to my diet, maybe about 10-13 percent carbs. I find that it is difficult in practice to eat different percentages of protein than 20%-30%. However, "portion control" is important. A smoothie with egg yolks and avocado for breakfast can easily be something like 800 calories, and then you are hungry again in a couple of hours. A rib steak can be a 1000 calories. Therefore, I now try to eat smaller portions and watch the calories, and make sure that I eat some plant foods - usually about 2 cups of fruit a day.

[Ioanna]

foxwoman, when you were zc were your calories significantly higher or do you think about the same as with carbs?

[sabertooth]

I was a bit emaciated when I started this diet, so I gained about 30 pounds in the first 4 months on  low carb, high fat . My weight finally leveled off and now it seems impossible for me to gain much weight, my weight fluctuates between 160 to 170, but I never have been able to gain over the 175 mark.
My cravings regulate my eating habits now. I simply cannot eat meat without enough fat trimmings to go with it. Right now I eat somewhere around 70% of calories from fat.

[klowcarb]

this is sad

Look at my avatar. Do I look sad?

[klowcarb]

KLOWCARB- [/td][/tr][/table][/glow]

What does your daily food intake look like? 
what do you eat, how much, calories etc...
sense you count your cal's 
I have been easing my way into this and have gained weight in the past on more of a cooked version of this diet - i felt and looked terrible.  i am 5'2, but still pretty close to your size.

On non lifting days, I eat 1600-1650 calories. On lifting days, 2000-2100 calories.

I eat grassfed 85/15 ground beef as the base of my 1 large meal a day. Once in a while a steak, but I like the $5.99/lb. grassfed 85/15 I can get. Sometimes 90/10.

I eat copious amounts of eggs, with extra yolks. I also eat these organs: heart (pork, beef, lamb), liver (veal, lamb), pig ear, occasional chicken gizzards, tongue (pork/beef).

Grassfed butter and coconut oil for fats.

I do 67-69% fat, 0-1% carbs (organ meats, eggs) and the rest protein.

[FoxWoman]

foxwoman, when you were zc were your calories significantly higher or do you think about the same as with carbs?

I think my calories were about the same - average of 2000 a day.