Raise your paleo baby diaper-free (from birth) - Elimination Communication

[Cinna]

There is a lot of information on EC (Elimination Communication) online, including personal journals, etc. (just google), but here is a great summary. What better way to bond with your baby, save the environment from mountains of "disposable" diapers, and keep baby happy, healthy and clean - no sitting in his/her own pee and dump for who knows how long.

From http://nourishedmagazine.com.au/blog/articles/raising-baby-nappy-free:

{GREEN LIVING}
Raising Baby Nappy-Free
By Sam Pearson

With the debate still current as to whether disposable, eco-disposable or cloth nappies are best, there is another alternative that many people are unaware of. It’s the cleanest, greenest and probably the oldest way of dealing with babies’ elimination. Elimination Communication (EC), also referred to as Infant Potty Training or Natural Infant Hygiene, is rarely practiced in Western society but it is the most common way of managing infant hygiene in the world today. While ECing makes good sense where water is scarce or disposable nappies are unavailable, there are many other advantages that babies and parents can also enjoy.

What is Elimination Communication?

Parents carry their babies before they can walk. Mothers help their baby to the breast before they can lift our shirts and self-serve. We help babies get to sleep when they are tired until they are old enough to do this unassisted. With Elimination Communication we are simply helping the baby to eliminate, just as we do, into a receptacle and not into their clothing until such time as they are capable of using a toilet independently. When a baby is never trained to use a nappy or taught to ignore the body’s signals that tell them they need to eliminate, they never have to learn to use a potty or re-recognise their body’s urges at a later date.

We are commonly told by doctors, child health experts and other parents that children develop bladder and bowel control between the ages of 18 months and 3 years. We also assume that babies are unaware of the sensation of having the need to eliminate before this age. Human knowledge of anatomy and physiology reveals both of these beliefs to be misconceptions. Not a new practice; the use of EC has been the norm in many non-western cultures for centuries and is still widely practised today.

We know that babies have bladder and sphincter control from birth. All mammals, including the human newborn, instinctively avoid soiling their nest and will follow the lead of their parents as to what is expected of them to achieve this. All babies are born capable of feeling the need to eliminate and if consistently given the opportunity, can easily learn to communicate to us when they need to eliminate as well as understand when we would like them to eliminate.

In contrast to toilet training, Elimination Communication is primarily about parent training. A close bond between baby and primary carer is essential as the adult must learn to recognise when baby needs to “go” through timing (regular elimination patterns), baby’s cues (body language) and intuition. For this reason, it is consistent with Attachment Parenting as the parent and child are in-tune with each other. This is achieved by being rarely separated, co-sleeping, baby-wearing and parenting instinctively and responsively.

Different parents approach EC differently but a common factor is the adult teaching the child a cueing sound (e.g. “ssss”). When the baby is newborn, the parent makes the cueing sound as baby eliminates and baby soon learns to associate this with elimination. Once this cueing sound has been learnt by the child, the parent can hold their baby over a suitable receptacle and ask the child to eliminate by making the cueing sound.

In time, babies learn how to clearly communicate to their parent their need to eliminate through their body language, baby talk or in some cases by using a hand signal that they have been taught or have invented on their own. Most ECed babies clearly signal either a full bladder or bowel from around 3-4 months onwards and are able to wait long enough for their carer to get them to an appropriate spot to eliminate.

Parents practising Elimination Communication might occasionally use a nappy as back up e.g. for long car trips or when baby is ill with diarrhoea. Some parents choose to EC part-time, perhaps during the day using a nappy only at night or perhaps only when at home. The human body in any healthy person excretes an anti-diuretic hormone during sleep which lessens the need to eliminate during sleep.

Contrary to popular belief, with the exception of people with medical conditions, humans don’t eliminate in their sleep but become semi-conscious when they need to eliminate. The mother who co-sleeps with her child and who is in tune with her baby can awaken to their stirring as they come out of deeper sleep and can respond to their baby’s elimination signals.

What are the advantages of Elimination Communication?

Avoiding nappy changes

The most obvious benefit is avoiding the time and effort involved in frequently changing wet nappies and the sometimes unpleasant task of dealing with soiled nappies. It is much easier and generally quicker to take a child of any age to the toilet than it is to change their nappy. Avoiding using nappies means that there is no need to pack a nappy bag and lug it about whenever out of the home.

Elimination Communication is the cleanest choice for the environment

Disposable nappies and the plastic bags they are usually wrapped in once dirty are a major contributor to landfill. For those environmentally conscious parents who choose cloth over disposable nappies, ECing saves the environmental cost of nappy production plus the extra laundry detergent and water involved with washing 6 to 12 reusable nappies per child daily, nappy covers and soiled clothes from nappy “blowouts”.

It’s cheaper

With Elimination Communication we avoid the financial cost involved in both the initial purchase of the nappies plus all the other nappy changing essentials such as change mat, baby wipes, creams and nappy liners. For users of cloth nappies as well as the initial outlay there is the associated costs of laundry powder and running the washing machine which can add up over the years. Clothes fit for longer without the bulk of a nappy.

EC is the healthiest choice for babies

There is no doubt that EC is kindest to babies’ delicate skin. A baby in nappies will have them next to their skin almost continually for many years which can lead to irritations. With disposables there is the issue of chemicals used in the production and in the absorbent gel which can enter a baby’s bloodstream and in the case of girls get into their vagina. With cloth there is the constant issue of keeping baby dry so they are more comfortable and sleep better. With both cloth and disposable nappies there is the age old problem of nappy-rash which can be painful and difficult to clear up. An ECed baby will never have nappy rash and ECing parents will never have to purchase nappy rash salves or preventative barrier creams. Elimination Communication reduces the risk of UTI’ and constipation plus enables parents to take closer note of baby’s elimination patterns to develop a better sense of a child’s digestive system and potentially react to allergens more quickly.

Elimination Communication supports positive child development

EC is considered to be the approach to toileting that optimises healthy sexual development. A baby who is constantly wearing a nappy becomes to an extent desensitised to that area of the body and can’t get in touch with their bodies uninhibited by a nappy. EC respects babies’ abilities to communicate their needs from birth which builds the baby’s self-confidence. Older siblings can be involved in the EC process thereby reducing rivalry and also helping them to develop healthy attitudes about bodily functions.

Elimination Communication leads to enhanced bonding

Perhaps most importantly, the development of a trusting relationship between the parent and the child is enhanced through communication about a basic human need. Baby feels more secure: “Mummy and Daddy listen to what I am saying and respond to my needs.” Parents learn to trust their instincts through accurately reading their baby’s body language building their confidence in their parenting ability. They have an additional parenting tool under their belt because they understand that a baby may be crying due to the need to eliminate and can therefore respond in the appropriate way.

What happens when a nappy free baby is old enough to use the toilet?

Achieving toilet independence for nappy free babies means a gradual transition from needing help to confidently using the toilet on their own. One big advantage for families is that many children are dry at night from around 12 months of age and have achieved complete toilet independence by 14 months. However, while early independence is common with ECed babies due to their increased awareness of their bodily functions, that is never the aim and indeed some ECed babies are independent from an age that might be considered late.

While the focus of being nappy free is primarily on being responsive to our babies and respecting their awareness of their elimination needs and ability to communicate those needs from an early age, the benefits to the whole family as well as to society are many.

[wodgina]

I always thought if I had kids I'd just hose them down in the back yard.

[Cinna]

I always thought if I had kids I'd just hose them down in the back yard.

That method works too.

[Ioanna]

thanks for posting!

[Michael]

Interesting post Cinna.

As you may have read in other threads, I have a 14 month old son who has been occupying much of my time - hence my long absence from the forum.  We were planning on experimenting with EC and, like you, have read much about it on the net.  We never did get around to ordering the book and have not yet tried it out but it's still the intention - albeit rather late now!

Do you have any children?  If so, did you experiment with EC?

As a matter of interest you may be interested to know that my son has never experienced any nappy rash either.  Being very eco-conscious, I've always detested the whole nappy thing.  We've only ever used re-useable washable nappies and never invested in all of the paraphanalia that seems to be thrust upon new parents.  No dispoable nappies, no changing mat, no wipes, no changing bag etc.  A little organic cotton wool dipped in Scottish mineral water for cleansing and raw virgin coconut oil for the rare occasion a little moisturising is required.  All very low impact on the environment (well, perhaps not the coconut oil from the Philippines?!) and healthy, chemical free for the child.

[raw-al]

Hey Cinna,
Another excellent post!

My neighbour read a book about this topic and their child is being raised this way.. sans diaper.

I have noticed that their daughter does not walk bowlegged, presumably because her legs are not being forced outward constantly. She is healthier as she is not like a CAFO cow sitting in her own... well yu know...

I wish I knew the name of the book she read, but it tells the story of the doctor who was heavily invested in the company that makes Pampers, when he was going around telling everyone that diapers and indeed disposable diapers were the only way to have a happy, disease-free, healthy baby.

It's amazing how society gets convinced of things by some slick Doctor type or huckster (closely linked) selling something that you have "Got to have". They sell their lives down the toilet (sorry, couldn't resist) for the sake of a supposed "convenience".

There are various and sundry issues caused by structural misalignment. With a diaper the legs are forced apart and thus the pathway of the nerves, spinal cord, excretory channels and blood vessels are artificially misaligned and so growth, motor control, sense development and thus agility are affected. Really there is no way to assess the damage to the child. Added to this is the fact that the poor thing is being forced to sit in sh*& and P*&s .

Funny that us First World people like to think that we are so superior because we have no open sewers, but we have a closed loop sewer around the most precious thing we have... our children.

Thanks for your post. I was going to post about it actually. I hope that you have sparked some interest.

[Michael]

Good points there raw-al!

I meant to mention the gait issue!  This has been my main concern especially as my son is now beginning to walk.  The nappy forces them to walk in an entirely unnatural way, as you said, with bowed legs!  How many generations have been raised this way and have the postural, muscular and skeletal problems to show for it?!! 

Without in any way intending to defend the use of nappies, I would like to add that it is possible to ensure one changes them as soon as they've 'utilised' any nappy so they're not sitting in bodily waste.  We're also trying to let him go nappy-free as much as possible now (particularly when walking!) but, of course, there are a fair few mishaps thus far!   

Sadly, as is often the case with many of these kind of issues, the way we've designed modern society makes it extremely difficult to 'do different'.  But, nappy/diaper free certainly has to be the ultimate aim and EC is one route to achieving this. 

[raw-al]

BTW I hope I do not sound condescending as prior to seeing/talking to the neighbour I was not aware and both our children were raised using disposable diapers. Times change.

[Michael]

No, don't worry.  You didn't sound condescending at all.  I hope I didn't sound defensive?! 

You're right.  Times change.  It's probably not something I would've thought about either if the information wasn't out there and so easily accessible in the information age we now live in.  On the whole, parents tend to do the best they can with the means they have at their disposal.

[Cinna]

Interesting post Cinna.

As you may have read in other threads, I have a 14 month old son who has been occupying much of my time - hence my long absence from the forum.  We were planning on experimenting with EC and, like you, have read much about it on the net.  We never did get around to ordering the book and have not yet tried it out but it's still the intention - albeit rather late now!

Do you have any children?  If so, did you experiment with EC?

As a matter of interest you may be interested to know that my son has never experienced any nappy rash either.  Being very eco-conscious, I've always detested the whole nappy thing.  We've only ever used re-useable washable nappies and never invested in all of the paraphanalia that seems to be thrust upon new parents.  No dispoable nappies, no changing mat, no wipes, no changing bag etc.  A little organic cotton wool dipped in Scottish mineral water for cleansing and raw virgin coconut oil for the rare occasion a little moisturising is required.  All very low impact on the environment (well, perhaps not the coconut oil from the Philippines?!) and healthy, chemical free for the child.

Michael, your son is so lucky to have such awesome parents.   Interestingly enough, I actually don't want children of my own. I can barely take care of myself and the cats in my charge.   I would like to be with someone (my ideal romantic partner) and care for him - we would take care of each other. I might consider adoption - whether human, stepchildren, or animal - especially of older kids/animals, but it would really depend on how I felt in the future, if it were financially possible, etc. I don't know if I could be with someone, care for someone, or raise someone properly unless I were healthy, autonomous, self-sufficient, whole, integrated, happy, creative, and authentic... I know we're all works-in-progress, but comparatively, it always takes me longer to do my homework.

If I were to be a mother, I would for sure go EC because I'm very eco-conscious as well. I would also mostly just be a mom - I would still need some alone me-time (passions, interests), but I'm not a super driven multi-tasking miracle worker... I couldn't juggle motherhood and career. As much as I love little creatures (like baby goats), I get overwhelmed easily, can be somewhat noncommittal (how could I commit to raising an actual person?) and have a history of depression.   (And I say this after half a lifetime of excellent therapy and holistic and alternative healing - I know myself.) I have a lot of love to give, but the world doesn't need my spawn.

[Cinna]

Hey Cinna,
Another excellent post!

My neighbour read a book about this topic and their child is being raised this way.. sans diaper.

I have noticed that their daughter does not walk bowlegged, presumably because her legs are not being forced outward constantly. She is healthier as she is not like a CAFO cow sitting in her own... well yu know...

Thank you, Al! Also, LOL - CAFO is sad, but your usage was funny.

I wish I knew the name of the book she read, but it tells the story of the doctor who was heavily invested in the company that makes Pampers, when he was going around telling everyone that diapers and indeed disposable diapers were the only way to have a happy, disease-free, healthy baby.

It's amazing how society gets convinced of things by some slick Doctor type or huckster (closely linked) selling something that you have "Got to have". They sell their lives down the toilet (sorry, couldn't resist) for the sake of a supposed "convenience".

I grew up assuming that diapers and BOTTLED baby food were healthy and normal and natural! Just because of the commercials I saw as a kid. It never occurred to me (until I was much older) that babies could eat fresh, pureed, real food. I thought bottled baby food and formula were the only suitable foods for babies.

There are various and sundry issues caused by structural misalignment. With a diaper the legs are forced apart and thus the pathway of the nerves, spinal cord, excretory channels and blood vessels are artificially misaligned and so growth, motor control, sense development and thus agility are affected. Really there is no way to assess the damage to the child. Added to this is the fact that the poor thing is being forced to sit in sh*& and P*&s .

I hadn't even considered the effect of diapers on physical development!   Thank you for pointing that out.

Funny that us First World people like to think that we are so superior because we have no open sewers, but we have a closed loop sewer around the most precious thing we have... our children.

When I was in Nepal in the late 90s, for a time I stayed in a small, high-elevation town and the mother of my host family had a huge baby and the baby was almost always wrapped on her in a huge blanket. Whatever she did (including work/chores), the baby was on her person (or another family member). That really struck me. No stroller, no nothing. So low-tech/non-tech and intimate. I barely saw him not attached to somebody. Interestingly, when I was back in the states, those things (I'm not sure what they're called) where the baby can ride in back or front of you - they were just starting to get in fashion. I don't remember ever seeing them when I was younger.

I thought, what an improvement! Baby is always close, they can see each other, good exercise for the parent - but STILL, to me, it isn't as close as the baby wrapped against his mother in my homestay town because the only thing separating their bodies was cloth - and sometimes just her clothing if he wasn't wearing any. Sure, she had to adjust the wrapping every so often, sometimes he was on her front, on her side, on her back (he was pretty huge, I don't know how she did it), but they were always in close, direct (except for cloth/clothing) contact. With the baby carriers I've seen in the US, there is still space between the baby and parent carrier (air, the material the carrier is made of) - at least from what I remember observing. I'm sure some carriers are better than others. Not that strollers or carriers or putting baby down for a breather are bad things - just that old school/developing country ways are sometimes oldies, but still goodies.

Thanks for your post. I was going to post about it actually. I hope that you have sparked some interest.

We're on the same wavelength.

[raw-al]

When I was in Nepal in the late 90s, for a time I stayed in a small, high-elevation town and the mother of my host family had a huge baby and the baby was almost always wrapped on her in a huge blanket. Whatever she did (including work/chores), the baby was on her person (or another family member). That really struck me. No stroller, no nothing. So low-tech/non-tech and intimate. I barely saw him not attached to somebody. Interestingly, when I was back in the states, those things (I'm not sure what they're called) where the baby can ride in back or front of you - they were just starting to get in fashion. I don't remember ever seeing them when I was younger.

My neighbour from Tibet's wife carries the baby the same way. She doesn't use diapers. She is white Anglo-Saxon.

[Michael]

Michael, your son is so lucky to have such awesome parents.

Aww, thanks Cinna!   

As you quite rightly said, we are indeed all a work-in-progress.  I'm certainly not doing a perfect job by any means.  I know if I'd waited until I felt ready and prepared it would never have happened! But, it's good that you're aware of your own weaknesses and honest with yourself about your ability to cope.  That's so refreshing when all around me I see many parents who are not only incapable for far better reasons than you insist upon yourself but who also genuinely don't really care!  But, I've spent too long in Social Work! 

I would also mostly just be a mom - I would still need some alone me-time (passions, interests), but I'm not a super driven multi-tasking miracle worker... I couldn't juggle motherhood and career.

Nature's way in my opinion.  It's brave to adhere to that view in a modern world that enforces parents to work as a method of building an army of drones and disenfranchised children with emotional ties only to establishment.

As much as I love little creatures (like baby goats), I get overwhelmed easily, can be somewhat noncommittal (how could I commit to raising an actual person?) and have a history of depression.   (And I say this after half a lifetime of excellent therapy and holistic and alternative healing - I know myself.)

As I mentioned in the other thread, I've had a similar background.  You're on the right path to make these things, truly, a thing of the past!

I have a lot of love to give, but the world doesn't need my spawn.

Unnecessarily self-depreciating Cinna.  You have a lot of love to give AND a lot more besides.  It's another spawn by some of the families I have to deal with in my work that the world doesn't need.  We need as many of the 'good guys' as possible!    Of course, it's your decision and I respect it entirely but be careful that you don't deprive yourself of one of the most joyous things in the world for the wrong reasons.

[Michael]

My neighbour from Tibet's wife carries the baby the same way. She doesn't use diapers. She is white Anglo-Saxon.

Your neighbour has much to teach, raw-al.

[Michael]

When I was in Nepal in the late 90s, for a time I stayed in a small, high-elevation town and the mother of my host family had a huge baby and the baby was almost always wrapped on her in a huge blanket. Whatever she did (including work/chores), the baby was on her person (or another family member). That really struck me. No stroller, no nothing. So low-tech/non-tech and intimate. I barely saw him not attached to somebody.

Wow!  Cool that you spent time in Nepal, Cinna.  It remains one of my dream locations along with, of course, Tibet.
This makes so much sense to me.  It was my intention with my son to do exactly this.  We tried so many of those modern carriers we could've opened our own shop!    You're right that most of them just aren't the same.  Unfortunately, we could never get to grips with the basic asian cloth used to tie the infant on using a variety of methods.  Also, I'm ashamed to admit that I found it excessively physically demanding as he got bigger even though I'd consider myself quite fit (running, cycling, hiking, weights etc).  It's a further indictment of how far we've allowed ourselves to fall in the so-called 'developed' world.

[Cinna]

I know if I'd waited until I felt ready and prepared it would never have happened!

I understand what you mean, Michael. I do tend to hold back until everything is perfect (i.e., until I'm perfect), so of course, progress is slow. Or seems slow... This is my journey though, these are my processes, and I have come a long way in understanding that it's OK not to be like everybody else - or rather, it's necessary to be oneself.

This is one of my favorite Seth quotes: "I have one message for our friend over here, however, and it is quite simple. When you do not know what to do, relax and tell yourself that other portions of yourself do know; they will take over. Give yourself some rest. Remind yourself that in many ways you are a very successful person as you are. Success does not necessarily involve great intellect or great position or great wealth; it has to do with inner integrity. Remember that."

We need as many of the 'good guys' as possible!    Of course, it's your decision and I respect it entirely but be careful that you don't deprive yourself of one of the most joyous things in the world for the wrong reasons.

With all this baby talk, I started thinking about it again... When I imagine myself pregnant, my assumption is that I'm alone and I can't do it by myself. That is weird/sad! I had (have?) a core belief that men don't hang around, they don't stay, they always leave when they can't stand the fire (so of course I kept bringing that experience into my reality). I think that is partly why I don't/didn't really allow myself to consider the possibility of having a baby. Because I couldn't do it by myself (financially, emotionally, etc.). And I've always found the prospect of childbirth (pain) terrifying.

I haven't felt the security that it's safe and feasible to bring a baby into this world. Moreover, I'm not expecting someone to come into my life and prove to me that men stay, thus changing my belief that men don't stay. I don't think it works that way. I feel that I must change my belief first in order to attract the person who wants to stay. Even then, I don't expect people to stay forever... I value freedom over security. I abhor feeling trapped; I would never want my partner to feel trapped with me. Freedom comes first - then there can be love.

This past year, for me, has been about not leaving myself, not giving up on myself, not abandoning myself. I think all my hard work will manifest the one who wants to hang around; the one who can't imagine being anywhere else; the one who doesn't peace out at the first sign of conflict/difficulty/messiness/inconvenience; the one who truly loves, adores, and respects me. The one who lets me be me... no - encourages me to be me. The one who knows himself - the one who is courageous enough to look at himself, know himself, and love himself.

I think everybody for the most part just wants to be truly loved and approved of - I don't quite buy into "bitches" and "assholes." I think people act bitchy/assholey when their needs aren't being met and they don't know how to get their needs met. If people are bitchy/assholey all the time, then imagine how much lack they feel. (For sure, SAD makes things worse.)

I'm creating my own security... and like attracts like.   I've gotten a bit off topic, but as you can see, our discussion prompted me to take another look at the workings of my brain/heart and I appreciate that.

Quote from http://people.tribe.net/vidourle/blog/0efb86ef-1ad8-4686-89e6-662b887eefc0:

When we look at other people, we see many of their qualities in innumerable and seemingly random combinations. However, the qualities that we see in the people around us are directly related to the traits that exist in us. "Like attracts like" is one of the spiritual laws of the universe. We attract individuals into our lives that mirror who we are. Those you feel drawn to reflect your inner self back at you, and you act as a mirror for them. Simply put, when you look at others, you will likely see what exists in you. When you see beauty, divinity, sweetness, or light in the soul of another, you are seeing the goodness that resides in your soul. When you see traits in others that evoke feelings of anger, annoyance, or hatred, you may be seeing reflected back at you those parts of yourself that you have disowned or do not like.

Because we are all mirrors for each other, looking at the people in your life can tell you a lot about yourself. Who you are can be laid bare to you through what you see in others. It is easy to see the traits you do not like in others. It is much more difficult to realize that you possess those same traits. Often, the habits, attitudes, and behaviors of others are closely linked to our unconscious and unresolved issues.

When you come into contact with someone you admire, search your soul for similarly admirable traits. Likewise, when you meet someone exhibiting traits that you dislike, accept that you are looking at your reflection. Looking at yourself through your perception of others can be a humbling and eye-opening experience. You can also cultivate in you the traits and behaviors that you do like. Be loving and respectful to all people, and you will attract individuals that will love and respect you back. Nurture compassion and empathy and let the goodness you see in others be your mirror.

[Michael]

Hey Cinna!

You know, you seem like a most intelligent, reflective, sensitive, loving and emotionally aware girl.  How could you ever consider that "the world doesn't need your spawn!" 

(Tyler, I realise we're getting a bit off topic here so feel free to move this thread)  or perhaps we should continue this conversation by PM?

I thought the Seth quote you mentioned was fantastic!  Thanks for sharing that.  In part, it ties in with an MIT lecture I downloaded from iTunes-U recently by Father Thomas Keating called 'Contemplative Dimensions of Human Experience'.  It's 1hr 40min long but I think you would absolutely love this and cannot recommend it highly enough!  In it he touches on evolution, paleontology, neuroscience, religion, developmental psychology...  He's one of the most engaging and wisest men I've ever seen and his lecture is potentially life-changing.

With all this baby talk, I started thinking about it again...

That's good.  I'm glad this conversation has got you thinking, Cinna.  Even if it changes nothing, it will at least re-affirm your own feelings and reasonings which can only be a positive thing.

It seems as though you have, indeed, done a good deal of reflecting on these subjects already and drawn what I consider to be wonderfully informed conclusions.  I agree that it's critical for anyone to attain the right positive belief system before they will attract the right person- in fact, in order to attain any general level of genuine happiness.  What Seth refers to as 'inner integrity' and Father Keating refers to as transcending beyond the childish needs recognised in developmental psychology as the need for security, being loved and power.

As you have said already, we are all a work in progress but I am confident that the extensive work that you have been doing on yourself this last year has been time very well invested and it will begin to reward you infinitely.  As you have realised, it is absolutely imperative that we do not look externally to other people or groups, to material possessions / wealth, or to attaining positions/situations for providing us with security.  Again, as you have realised, this includes our partners with whom we may or may not share the entirety of our lives.  We are all a part of the same big human family and we are all free spirits.

I can totally understand your entirely reasonable assumptions and fears about being alone and the prospect of raising children alone.  Many men don't hang around.  Nor women for that matter!    Long-term, many if not most relationships fail (to use terminology of which I do not agree).  Raising children is difficult but you could do it alone if necessary.  Childbirth doesn't have to be painful (we had Charlie with no drugs, just hot towels & breathing, hypnobirthing, yoga etc).

Having said that, it IS your journey and it is only necessary for you to be yourself.  Having children is not for everybody.  Being in a life-long relationship is not for everybody.  Ultimately, all we can do is seek and honour our own truths.

I'm happy to continue this conversation by PM if you wish? 

[Cinna]

Thank you so much for your response and kind words, Michael. I just wanted to address a couple points here (on the forum) - anything more than that, I will take it to the PM.

Yes, I'd love to hear that MIT lecture - I will look it up.   I'm very fond of the wisdom of Osho, don Miguel Ruiz, Seth-Jane Roberts, Abraham-Hicks, and any wisdom that resonates with me and brings peace and comfort to my very core. Speaking of don Miguel Ruiz, it's been awhile since I read "The Mastery of Love" - I might reread it.

I agree that it's critical for anyone to attain the right positive belief system before they will attract the right person- in fact, in order to attain any general level of genuine happiness.  What Seth refers to as 'inner integrity' and Father Keating refers to as transcending beyond the childish needs recognised in developmental psychology as the need for security, being loved and power.

Lost in the jungle (by Osho)

The joy of love is possible only if you have known the joy of being alone, because then only do you have something to share. Otherwise, two beggars meeting each other, clinging to each other, cannot be blissful. They will create misery for each other because each will be hoping, and hoping in vain, that "The other is going to fulfill me." The other is hoping the same. They cannot fulfill each other. They are both blind; they cannot help each other.

I have heard about a hunter who got lost in the jungle. For three days he could not find anybody to ask for the way out, and he was becoming more and more panicky--three days of no food and three days of constant fear of wild animals. For three days he was not able to sleep; he was sitting awake on some tree, afraid he may be attacked. There were snakes, there were lions, there were wild animals.

On the fourth day early in the morning, he saw a man sitting under a tree. You can imagine his joy. He rushed, he hugged the man, and he said, "What joy!" And the other man hugged him, and both were immensely happy. Then they asked each other, "Why are you so ecstatic?"

The first said, "I was lost and I was waiting to meet somebody." And the other said, "I am also lost and I am waiting to meet somebody. But if we are both lost then the ecstasy is just foolish. So now we will be lost together!"

That's what happens: you are lonely, the other is lonely--now you meet. First the honeymoon: that ecstasy that you have met the other, now you will not be lonely anymore. But within three days, or if you are intelligent enough, then within three hours... it depends on how intelligent you are. If you are stupid, then it will take a longer time because one does not learn; otherwise the intelligent person can immediately see after three minutes: "What are we trying to do? It is not going to happen. The other is as lonely as I am. Now we will be living together--two lonelinesses together. Two wounds together cannot help each other to be healed."

We are part of each other--no man is an island. We belong to an invisible but infinite continent. Boundless is our existence. But those experiences happen only to people who are self-actualizing, who are in such tremendous love with themselves that they can close their eyes and be alone and be utterly blissful. That's what meditation is all about.

Meditation means being ecstatic in your aloneness. But when you become ecstatic in your aloneness, soon the ecstasy is so much that you cannot contain it. It starts overflowing you. And when it starts overflowing you it becomes love.

Meditation allows love to happen. And the people who have not known meditation will never know love. They may pretend that they love but they cannot. They will only pretend--because they don't have anything to give, they are not overflowing. Love is a sharing. But before you can share, you have to have it! Meditation should be the first thing.

Meditation is the center, love is the circumference of it. Meditation is the flame, love is the radiation of it. Meditation is the flower, love is the fragrance of it.

As you have realised, it is absolutely imperative that we do not look externally to other people or groups, to material possessions / wealth, or to attaining positions/situations for providing us with security.  Again, as you have realised, this includes our partners with whom we may or may not share the entirety of our lives.  We are all a part of the same big human family and we are all free spirits.

I can totally understand your entirely reasonable assumptions and fears about being alone and the prospect of raising children alone.  Many men don't hang around.  Nor women for that matter!    Long-term, many if not most relationships fail (to use terminology of which I do not agree).  Raising children is difficult but you could do it alone if necessary.  Childbirth doesn't have to be painful (we had Charlie with no drugs, just hot towels & breathing, hypnobirthing, yoga etc).

You're right, women leave too.   I agree, I don't believe relationships "fail." We gain from everything - especially "failures." I believe we're in each relationship for a reason and the more we "fail," the better we become... like forging metal with fire. It's hotter than hell, but the fire momentarily "softens" us and allows us to shape ourselves and become better, stronger, wiser, more compassionate people. Nevermind "failing" - we are experiencing, sharing, feeling, expressing, growing, and polishing our mettle.

Ultimately, all we can do is seek and honour our own truths.

Exactly!

[Michael]

No problem Cinna.  I wasn't specifically trying to be kind but just felt it was important that I pointed out to you what a great girl you clearly are and how many wonderful gifts you already have to be proud of and content with yourself.  I do think your work on yourself has enabled you to appreciate this already.

I hope you manage to find the MIT lecture.  Let me know if you have any problems and, more importantly, what you think of it!  I'd value further discussion with you about it.

Hey, you're obviously far more 'educated' and well read on this stuff than I.  I plead ignorance!   My own understanding and wisdom is, simply that, gained through my own experiences and reflections on life and, particularly, gleamed from my years of social work.  It's amazing how much we can learn from other's difficulties as well as our own and how much this can help bring us the peace & comfort you speak of.

I really like many of the wisdoms you've shared so will make a point in reading further work of some of the people you've mentioned.  Thanks for sharing those!

I don't believe relationships "fail." We gain from everything - especially "failures." I believe we're in each relationship for a reason and the more we "fail," the better we become... like forging metal with fire. It's hotter than hell, but the fire momentarily "softens" us and allows us to shape ourselves and become better, stronger, wiser, more compassionate people. Nevermind "failing" - we are experiencing, sharing, feeling, expressing, growing, and polishing our mettle.

Absolutely!  I also really like the philosophy and observations of Cinna! 

I look forward to those PMs.

[raw]

When I was in Nepal in the late 90s, for a time I stayed in a small, high-elevation town and the mother of my host family had a huge baby and the baby was almost always wrapped on her in a huge blanket. Whatever she did (including work/chores), the baby was on her person (or another family member). That really struck me. No stroller, no nothing. So low-tech/non-tech and intimate. I barely saw him not attached to somebody. Interestingly, when I was back in the states, those things (I'm not sure what they're called) where the baby can ride in back or front of you - they were just starting to get in fashion. I don't remember ever seeing them when I was younger.

this is the way i grew up and so does my brother. even now, i see all my cousins' children are raising like that without diaper in non-tech environment. only different between them and myself is, if they have access of all these things which i have, i bet u that'll be something else.

[raw-al]

The thread has morphed a bit but another excellent book on relationships that I was recommended to read,so my GF and I listened to is "Getting The Love You Want" by Harville Hendrix.
http://gettingtheloveyouwant.com/
Fascinating look into the psyche. It agrees with my philosophy on life in general. We have listened to the audio-book version and are doing the exercises. Lots of fun to discover things about ourselves.

One thing he gets you to do is list the things that you feel should change in your beloved .

Then he suggests swapping the lists and having the other one work on doing the suggestions. He explains all this in huge detail and then suggests that we all have rough corners that only others can see clearly. Fascinating thought although I had kind of figured that out in my own way.

[raw-al]

.......
When I was in Nepal in the late 90s, for a time I stayed in a small, high-elevation town and the mother of my host family had a huge baby and the baby was almost always wrapped on her in a huge blanket. Whatever she did (including work/chores), the baby was on her person (or another family member). That really struck me. No stroller, no nothing. So low-tech/non-tech and intimate. I barely saw him not attached to somebody. Interestingly, when I was back in the states, those things (I'm not sure what they're called) where the baby can ride in back or front of you - they were just starting to get in fashion. I don't remember ever seeing them when I was younger.

I thought, what an improvement! Baby is always close, they can see each other, good exercise for the parent - but STILL, to me, it isn't as close as the baby wrapped against his mother in my homestay town because the only thing separating their bodies was cloth - and sometimes just her clothing if he wasn't wearing any. Sure, she had to adjust the wrapping every so often, sometimes he was on her front, on her side, on her back (he was pretty huge, I don't know how she did it), but they were always in close, direct (except for cloth/clothing) contact. With the baby carriers I've seen in the US, there is still space between the baby and parent carrier (air, the material the carrier is made of) - at least from what I remember observing. I'm sure some carriers are better than others. Not that strollers or carriers or putting baby down for a breather are bad things - just that old school/developing country ways are sometimes oldies, but still goodies.

We're on the same wavelength.

Cinna,
Haven't heard from you in a while.

I just read the book that my neighbour read about this. The book is called "The Continuum Concept" "In Search Of Happiness Lost" by Jean Liedlove. The book was written around 1965.

The book starts out a bit ponderous, but if you persist it is a wonderful description of what you just recounted. She delves into how this carrying the babe around constantly creates an inner comfort and also teaches the child how to act as an adult, so the child doesn't have to go through the figuring out later in life because they have acquired the maturity within a year of birth. The child doesn't go through the tantrum/insecure problems that are endemic in out society.

I highly recommend the book. I am not finished reading it as I read half yesterday.