Thin/Runny Honey Batch (Honey Pacifica)

[RogueFarmer]

Hee hee, raw honey has a longer shelf life than any of us do!

perhaps not comb, but I think it does too!

There was raw honey that was unearthed out of the pyramids that was still good.

[PaleoPhil]

Why would comb honey be heated?  That's just more work.

The reason for selling most things is because people think they'll make more money selling it that way. Whether they really will is another question, but they are apparently convinced that they will. I think that intentionally heating any honey is idiotic, but honey marketers don't go by my opinion, they go by what they think will generate the most profit for them. Ignorance seems to be part of the problem. There's a beekeeper forum where not one of the beekeepers were aware that fermented honey is a good thing and that they could sell it for more money, not a reason for throwing it out. Some of them didn't even seem to be aware that raw honey is FAR superior to heated honey and that anyone who bothers to take one taste of raw honey instantly knows this. I find this stupefying coming from beekeepers. WTH???

[cherimoya_kid]

The reason for selling most things is because people think they'll make more money selling it that way. Whether they really will is another question, but they are apparently convinced that they will. I think that intentionally heating any honey is idiotic, but honey marketers don't go by my opinion, they go by what they think will generate the most profit for them. Ignorance seems to be part of the problem. There's a beekeeper forum where not one of the beekeepers were aware that fermented honey is a good thing and that they could sell it for more money, not a reason for throwing it out. Some of them didn't even seem to be aware that raw honey is FAR superior to heated honey and that anyone who bothers to take one taste of raw honey instantly knows this. I find this stupefying coming from beekeepers. WTH???

Do any of them heat their comb before they sell it?

[PaleoPhil]

Apparently so. Tyler has warned about this repeatedly in the past, as I recall, and gave an additional warning above. It would explain why all the comb honey I've seen for sale in local stores and farmers markets was thin, runny, pale, clear, and looked and tasted like commercial heated honey. International shipments can also be heated, apparently. I was able to order some comb honey shipped within the US that arrived in very good shape. Look for comb honey that is made by the bees right in the container, so that there's no heating by the beekeeper at all, and try to find one that is not pale and clear but has more of a mottled appearance, with dark spots, and looks more like wild honey. I think Tyler and I may have provided example images in the past, but maybe I'm dreaming. I think the "pure" appearance without mottling and such is one possible reason why honey sellers heat even most honey comb. It's like the way people like to buy pure-red apples instead of mottled apples. This is yet another case where it pays not to follow the preferences of the ignorant masses.

[cherimoya_kid]

I had no idea. That's some scammy shit.

[TylerDurden]

PP is being far too pessimistic. The raw honeycomb I get in farmer's markets is often pale and clearish. That is due to the type of plants the bees feed on, such as borage, and the honeycomb is perfectly raw. Darker honeycombs are due to bees eating other kinds of plants such as heather. True, though, processing/heating the honeycomb usually leads to lighter colours.

Buying honeycomb from abroad is a waste of time, since they virtually always  pasteurise it to take into account any potential laws in the country being exported to.

[RogueFarmer]

Honey made from fire clover is insanely expensive and almost 100% clear. Doesn't taste as good I hear either. People are willing to pay for "purity" I guess.

[PaleoPhil]

Thanks for the additional details, Tyler. I guess I must have gone overboard with the language, but I thought it was important to warn people that not all comb honeys are raw or even good tasting. I know there are naturally lighter and thinner honeys, but the raw light jarred honeys I've tried have tended to be much tastier and not as overly sweet as the light comb honeys. I mainly was trying to emphasize that not all comb honeys are raw, thick, or tasty. Overall I've had much better luck with the jarred honeys than the comb honeys. The only comb honeys I've had any good experience with have been the ones where the bees make the comb right in the container and thus the comb honeys are not heated or processed at all. It seems like more than just coincidence. It was thanks to your tips that I searched for and found a comb honey that was made by the bees right in the container and had a darker and more mottled appearance along the lines of what you had recommended. As a matter of fact, I think I even looked for an American comb honey that looked as close to the image you shared as I could find. It was much tastier and thicker than any other comb honey I had tried before and it wasn't sickeningly sweet like all the other comb honeys I had tried.

Darker honeycombs are due to bees eating other kinds of plants such as heather. True, though, processing/heating the honeycomb usually leads to lighter colours.

Yes, I remember you saying these points and this is what I meant. I should have mentioned that the darker honeycombs also likely taste better because of the plants that the nectar comes from, thanks for pointing that out too. It's a good idea to experiment anyway and try a variety of honeys and see which ones you prefer. There's no single simple rule like all comb honeys are good or that you'll necessarily like all honeys that are claimed to be raw or unheated. Honey making is a tricky business that even most beekeepers don't seem to fully understand. At the beekeeper forum I've seen beekeepers ridicule their customers for preferring unheated or fermented honey. I felt like saying to them, "Don't you want the extra money you can charge for it--are you against making more money?" Even though one of the beekeepers was raving about how he was making more money by making unheated honey, others continued to ridicule it. And they think their customers are stupid? Give me a break!

Buying honeycomb from abroad is a waste of time, since they virtually always  pasteurise it to take into account any potential laws in the country being exported to.

Thanks, I knew it was something like that, but couldn't remember the precise detail. So it's heated to meet potential foreign importation laws, presumably with the idea of killing off potential organisms, right? I remember buying from an American company partly on the basis of your tip.

Given that many honey makers, including such as Honey Pacifica, aren't even aware that their honeys are apparently not truly raw (at least by Aajonus' standard), it can be difficult to find the best honeys just going by claims. I don't even know for sure if centrifuging is really that damaging. I only have people's claims to go by on that. So I also try different honeys and compare how my body reacts. If my body does best with a particular honey and I like it, does it really matter that much how it's made? :shrug: I do use the claims to help weed down the candidates (if they don't even claim that their honey is raw, that's a quick and easy way to weed them out), but in the end it comes down to the actual testing of the product on myself. In other words, so-called self experimentation.

Honey made from fire clover is insanely expensive and almost 100% clear. Doesn't taste as good I hear either. People are willing to pay for "purity" I guess.

I think you're onto something there. Maybe people think that clearer looking honey is more "pure" and thus buy it based on looks rather than taste? Like the way people buy shitty tasting apples because they look more uniformly red and feel firm. If you follow Tyler's tips like I did, I think you should be able to find a tasty and truly raw comb honey. It was expensive, though. IIRC, I think Tyler very fortunately has a local seller that provides dark and tasty raw comb honey at a reasonable price. I wish I had something like that locally.

[Honey Pacifica]

Hi, I came across this forum post the other day and thought I might be able to help answer some questions. I work for Honey Pacifica as their website developer, live down the street from them, and yes it’s one of the most delicious jobs I’ve ever had.

“Different plant nectars (flowers) apparently produce different honeys of different thicknesses. Usually honey makers and sellers strive for consistency within a particular variety.”

Each hive can have vastly different thickness of honeys, even if they are going to the same flowers. As we extract and bottle the honey there can be differences in the thickness of the honey from jar to jar. There are so many variables involved it can be tough to get the exact thickness every time. Even the taste of a honey can change from year to year. Like any crop some years are better than others based on rainfall, sunlight, the bees, the soil and other factors. If you prefer thick honey, it’s best to note that on your order.

“One thing to watch out for is whether they use a centrifuge or not.”
As you can see from our video that was posted a page back, we do indeed use a centrifuge to spin the honey out of the comb. The centrifuge itself doesn’t create heat, but some beekeepers heat the centrifuge to make the honey thin and speed up the extraction process. We do not heat any of our honey in the extractor. I’ll take a measurement of the honey coming out of the extractor next time it’s running.

“Honey can be certified raw and still be heated...there are quite a few conversations and peoples experiences here that point to that”

Indeed this is a problem; you need to trust the beekeeper you are getting your honey from. Make sure your definition of raw matches the beekeepers definition. We view raw as unheated, unprocessed and unfiltered.
“The Honey gets hot during shipping”
Depending on where you live this could happen during the summer. If you’re really worried about the summer heat, stock up in the winter with a 60 lb. pail. Honey never spoils so you can always have it on hand throughout the year. Also buying in bulk will get you the best price.

"The most bizarre thing about the whole process is that most beekeepers and honey sellers discard the best parts of the honey hive--the cappings and stray bee grubs/larvae and when the honey gets really good (fermented) most of them say it has "gone bad" and throw it out."

Our customers asked us for this a few years ago so we have Cold Packed Chunky Honey with cappings, royal jelly and propolis mixed in. This is about as raw as it gets.

“Why would comb honey be heated?  That's just more work.”

Seems silly to me, this would add a lot of time to simply cutting it up. I agree with the thoughts on foreign honeycomb and they might have to do this due to import/export laws.

“Some of them (beekeepers) didn't even seem to be aware that raw honey is FAR superior to heated honey and that anyone who bothers to take one taste of raw honey instantly knows this.”

We still have a fairly large market that love our honey but can’t taste the difference or afford the additional price of the Cold Packed honey. While this is slowly changing we continue to have both Regular Raw and Cold Packed. Our Regular Raw is gradually heated over 2-3 days in a box with light bulbs to allow for ease of bottling, while preserving the quality of honey. Yes both types of honey take a lot of time to bottle but we take pride in only offering the best tasting raw honey around.

If you have any more questions or comments I’d be happy to answer them. Thanks for reading through this all if you made it this far. 

Best,
Tim Footdale
Honey Pacifica

[eveheart]

After this topic came up, I attended a monthly meeting of the local bee guild in my area. There were about 60 people there, ranging from large commercial beekeepers to amateur backyard enthusiasts. I asked about my runny honey concerns, as well as my curiosity about fermented honey.

On the runny honey topic, I got the same answer as Tim just provided - honey can be truly raw and still be runny, depending on other factors.

When I asked about deliberately fermented honey, I got the response that such honey would be dangerous to consume (as dangerous as raw meat? LOL). Well, I asked for and got their honest opinion, so I'm not sitting in judgment here.

I talked to the amateurs, too, and listened to their questions to the experts, and I decided that I would never eat honey from an amateur beekeeper because they "try" things that may later prove to be bad ideas.

[PaleoPhil]

On the runny honey topic, I got the same answer as Tim just provided - honey can be truly raw and still be runny, depending on other factors.

Yes indeed. The idea that honey must be thick to be raw appears to be one of the common misguided myths of the Internet.

When I asked about deliberately fermented honey, I got the response that such honey would be dangerous to consume (as dangerous as raw meat? LOL). Well, I asked for and got their honest opinion, so I'm not sitting in judgment here.

LOL I continue to be amazed by the ignorance of beekeepers. I'm tempted to enter the profession myself to put this nonsense to rest and to capitalize on the best honey of all--fermented honey, which traditional Africans well understand. What utter nonsense to call fermented honey dangerous. It's the best by far of all. Where do they get these inanities? They've obviously never tried it. American beekeepers have so much to learn before they are fit to lick the shoes of African beekeepers. It's a disgraceful scandal.

[cherimoya_kid]

American beekeepers have so much to learn before they are fit to lick the shoes of African beekeepers.

What do you expect?  The African beekeeping tradition has an unbroken line going back probably 5000 years or more, back into very paleo-eating times there, in many cases.  The American beekeeping tradition has been coopted by Big Ag and general Western scientific ignorance/arrogance. 

Have you tried the Honey Pacifica Cold Packed Chunky honey, Phil?  I've been enjoying the Really Raw fermented honey this week that you suggested. It's quite nice, I just wish it was even more heavily fermented.

[PaleoPhil]

As you can see from our video that was posted a page back, we do indeed use a centrifuge to spin the honey out of the comb. The centrifuge itself doesn’t create heat, but some beekeepers heat the centrifuge to make the honey thin and speed up the extraction process. We do not heat any of our honey in the extractor. I’ll take a measurement of the honey coming out of the extractor next time it’s running.

Excellent, thanks and thanks for the info. How do they heat the centrifuge, does it have electrical wiring in it? I think someone might have mentioned that once somewhere.

Depending on where you live this could happen during the summer. If you’re really worried about the summer heat, stock up in the winter with a 60 lb. pail. Honey never spoils so you can always have it on hand throughout the year. Also buying in bulk will get you the best price.

Good idea, thanks.

Our customers asked us for this a few years ago so we have Cold Packed Chunky Honey with cappings, royal jelly and propolis mixed in. This is about as raw as it gets.

Cool. Your customers are smart.

Have you tried the Honey Pacifica Cold Packed Chunky honey, Phil?

I ordered some today.

I've been enjoying the Really Raw fermented honey this week that you suggested. It's quite nice, I just wish it was even more heavily fermented.

You might like mead then.

[cherimoya_kid]

I ordered some today.

Me too..

Re: mead, do you think if I just add a little more water to the fermented honey, that it will ferment more strongly?

[PaleoPhil]

No, I tried that. If you do have success, though, please do share it. I think the main problem was insufficient heat. I wonder if there's some sort of apparatus of reasonable cost which would enable one to store honey with mild added heat to bring it up to fermentation-encouraging temperature without damaging it by overheating it and thus ferment honey at home?

I did also look into what's involved in making mead, to see if I could make a low-heated or perhaps even near-raw version of mead along the lines of traditional cultures like the Maasai, who reportedly just warm their mead near a fire, rather than heat it directly and at higher temps as in modern mead processing, but the complexity involved caused me to decide to put that off to a future project.

Some of the honey is distributed among the people of the enkang' and the rest is used to make mead. The girl's mother mixes honey with water and pieces of osukuroi (Aloe myriacantha) in a large gourd (ormosori) and puts it near, but not too close, to the fire to ferment. This mead is called 'enaisho e siret'. From Drinking: Anthropological Approaches, by I. de Garine, Valérie de Garine, p. 92

[KD]

Best,
Tim Footdale
Honey Pacifica

Sweet.

---

Tests Show Most Store Honey Isn't Honey : Ultra-filtering Removes Pollen, Hides Honey Origins by Andrew Schneider | Nov 07, 2011
http://www.foodsafetynews.com/2011/11/tests-show-most-store-honey-isnt-honey/

In the U.S., the Food and Drug Administration says that any product that's been ultra-filtered and no longer contains pollen isn't honey. However, the FDA isn't checking honey sold here to see if it contains pollen....

Concocting a sweet-tasting syrup out of cane, corn or beet sugar, rice syrup or any of more than a dozen sweetening agents is a great deal easier, quicker and far less expensive than dealing with the natural brew of bees.

[cherimoya_kid]

No, I tried that. If you do have success, though, please do share it. I think the main problem was insufficient heat. I wonder if there's some sort of apparatus of reasonable cost which would enable one to store honey with mild added heat to bring it up to fermentation-encouraging temperature without damaging it by overheating it and thus ferment honey at home?

I would think just putting it on top of your refrigerator, or over a heating vent would probably work.

[Honey Pacifica]

Excellent, thanks and thanks for the info. How do they heat the centrifuge, does it have electrical wiring in it? I think someone might have mentioned that once somewhere.

I talked to our extractor this week and there are a few ways beekeepers extract honey with heat. In one situation some use steam in the extractor to heat the honey, which makes it easier to pump into barrels.

The other option is to use a heat exchanger, which is a hot water jacket hose that heats the honey and makes it easier to pump into barrels. The reason most beekeepers do this is the pumping is the slowest part of the extraction process. Since we don't use heat we have to take an extraction break occasionally for the pump to catch up and give us room for more extracted honey in the catch tray. These are only two of the many ways, each beekeeper has their own idea and tools that works best for them.

Here is a decent rendering of a tube heat exchanger. The Honey would be in the middle and hot water on the outside.



Tim

[PaleoPhil]

Interesting, thanks Tim.

[Honey Pacifica]

No prob. Let me know what you think of the chunky honey.

[PaleoPhil]

Sorry, but so far it's a bit too sweet and strong tasting for my taste, and I start to get the same nausea I get when I eat too much of certain other honeys (I can eat unlimited amounts of the raw fermented honey without nausea, which is less sweet and contains bacteria that may help somehow, I guess, though even that honey took some adapting to before I could eat large quantities in one sitting) though it's possible I might adapt to that over time, and I didn't expect it, but there's too much wax for my taste. I guess the optimal for me would be a bit more wax and stuff mixed in than is in the Really Raw brand honey, but not as much as the Honey Pacifica chunky honey. I could see people who have a real sweet tooth and love wax candy liking it. Next I'll try mixing some of it with the fermented honey.

Strangely, the plastic lids of the two jars I bought were both cracked despite them being packed in what looked like more cushioning than I thought necessary and more than the other honey brands I've ordered. Maybe the lids are particularly susceptible to cracking?

[Honey Pacifica]

Sorry, but so far it's a bit too sweet and strong tasting for my taste, and I start to get the same nausea I get when I eat too much of certain other honeys (I can eat unlimited amounts of the raw fermented honey without nausea, which is less sweet and contains bacteria that may help somehow, I guess, though even that honey took some adapting to before I could eat large quantities in one sitting) though it's possible I might adapt to that over time, and I didn't expect it, but there's too much wax for my taste. I guess the optimal for me would be a bit more wax and stuff mixed in than is in the Really Raw brand honey, but not as much as the Honey Pacifica chunky honey. I could see people who have a real sweet tooth and love wax candy liking it. Next I'll try mixing some of it with the fermented honey.

Thanks for trying it, the sweetness and taste can vary from batch to batch, it's a collection of chunky parts from all our honeys combined. I'll ask about fermented honey, I'm not sure if it something we get enough of to offer as a product.

Strangely, the plastic lids of the two jars I bought were both cracked despite them being packed in what looked like more cushioning than I thought necessary and more than the other honey brands I've ordered. Maybe the lids are particularly susceptible to cracking?

I let Danny our shipper know that they broke during shipping, we use those for all our larger glass jars. Hopefully it was just a bad batch.

[B.Money]

Thanks for coming in Tim, I'm glad to have caught your attention!

I would also be interested in trying this fermented honey if at some point it will be offered.

[PaleoPhil]

Thanks for trying it, the sweetness and taste can vary from batch to batch, it's a collection of chunky parts from all our honeys combined.

Thanks for the explanation. I tried it again the next day and it tasted somewhat better to me, so I apparently already adapted a bit to it.

I'll ask about fermented honey, I'm not sure if it something we get enough of to offer as a product.

Thanks. I've been surprised by how much of a difference in both taste and health benefits that fermenting the honey makes. It seems to be largely lost knowledge, with only the Weston A. Price Foundation, Really Raw and some traditional peoples being aware of its benefits.

There are mead-makers in the USA and mead is actually experiencing a bit of a revival, but I don't get the benefits from mead that I get from raw fermented honey. Maybe American mead could be better if it weren't directly heated. Traditional mead, such as of the Maasai is just warmed near a fire, rather than directly heated, and probably doesn't reach as high temperatures. I also doubt that it's filtered like American meads.

I let Danny our shipper know that they broke during shipping, we use those for all our larger glass jars. Hopefully it was just a bad batch.

Thanks.