Do you guys totally dismiss veganism as a healthy lifestyle?

[PaleoPhil]

It's not quite moot, because the reported "fruitarian" claims that Nigella is "fat" are rather revealing if true. I eat some fruits and plenty of honey and I'm not making any positive claims about meat-heavy diets based on these images, but if there's an ounce of truth to the reported reaction, then it is rather telling (and it does match what I have witnessed in the past and I haven't noticed Rawzi to be untruthful or mean). If they had reacted as you did, talking about how a couple images don't prove anything, that would have been understandable (though I have seen vegetarians and vegans use images to make claims about vegetarianism or veganism being healthy for all, so it would merely be giving them a taste of their own medicine at worst, which doesn't justify it, but does put it in context), but for them to claim that Nigella looks fat in that image? Disturbing.

[KD]

One example of one woman that looks good at a certain age and one that doesn't no matter what they eat means little. I've seen people that eat nothing but SAD look great into their 50's. You're talking about someone in the industry who is obviously going to be photogenic by nature and endowed naturally.

I don't see why every time someone presents an example on this site like here that we are all assuming we could eat like them and get their results. Likely what people are saying usually and in this comparison is that at the very least there are problems with the philosophy claiming to be healthy if it can't match up to what is constantly being blasted as unhealthy. That it puts into question which things matter, not solves anything about which way is even best.

Of course some people have 'natural' health and beauty AND resilance that many people - on a raw site in particular - do not, but some people simply have better health solutions than others. Some lead people down the wrong path obsessing perhaps over the wrong problems. There are enough inspiring tales in all aspects of humanity (including natural health) to suggest that many things can be surmountable. Hate to disagree with you D. I mean, people should be given credit based on the gains they have made -if they have made them- and not expect that they should exhibit some ridiculous mainstream plastic standard, true, but many people do make claims that their diet is THE BEST at reverse aging, creates the clearest healthiest skin etc..meanwhile bashing even healthy fats, meats, butter etc...so I don't think it's that unfair of a backlash. If we are talking about a poet laureate or someone on a forum who just believes the way they eat is OK and doesn't advise people than that is a different story.

Here is a candid photo (by a member) of aajonus supposedly around his worst point.

http://www.rawpaleodietforum.com/primal-diet/going-to-meet-aajonus-on-monday/msg16121/#msg16121

Whatever people feel about his explanations of that there indeed have been photos I've seen taken casually in group setting which clearly are too small-res to be photoshopped professionally and he looks way better and that has been pointed out by people I know personally who have met with him since. Nontheless in this photo even though it isn't the slick intense bookjacket photos he still -at his claimed worst- clearly has a vibrance that many people his age do not. I do not see why people can not use a photo like this as some kind of positive (or negative) talking point. Obviously if someone wants to compare it to Harrison Ford as far as which is more 'handsome', this is slightly unfair given Aajonus' extreme health history and Harrison's never ending sex symbol status, yet he might weigh out as a 'winner' depending on one's subjectivity to various signifiers. I don't think McKeith gets the same pass, but I'm willing to agree that it carries some level of subjectivity.

http://inyourface.ocregister.com/2008/05/21/indiana-jones-star-harrison-ford-is-showing-his-age-but-rejects-plastic-surgery/

note that Harrison is almost 5 years older..but pics here @ 65.

[PaleoPhil]

That it puts into question which things matter, not solves anything about which way is even best....many people do make claims that their diet is THE BEST at reverse aging, create the clearist healthiest skin etc..meanwhile bashing even healthy fats, meats, butter etc...so I don't think its that unfair of a backlash

Exactly. I'm glad someone in this forum understands. When vegetarians and vegans make outlandish claims that EVERYONE will experience fantastic health from a vegetarian/vegan diet and horrendous degeneration from eating animal foods, then photos of Nigella, Art De Vany, Tyler Durden (surely no one's going to claim that Tyler's image was photo-shopped?), Movnat Paleo dieters and others raise interesting questions about their outlandish claims. If eating meat is so terrible, why do these people not look fat, sick and overall horrible, like the vegans/vegetarians claimed they would?
Movnat participants--obviously sickly meat eaters 

I doubt that Rawzi was trying to imply that the photos "proved" anything about positive benefits from eating meat and I don't understand why she can't be given the benefit of the doubt until proven otherwise. I don't think she or her intended message is necessarily stupid or mean based on the images, nor do I assume that about whoever originally posted them somewhere on the Internet (who knows what if anything the image was originally in response to?), and I welcome any images of Nigella that people wish to proffer. I wasn't aware of her at all and I am quite thankful for having been made aware. Bless you zbr5 and Rawzi! 

If someone claimed that the images of Nigella and Gillian proved anything about the whole human race, then yes, that would be dumb, but I haven't seen that yet, so I don't understand why I should make that negative assumption about anyone's intentions or message. Anyone who knows Rawzi will know that she is a very positive person and surely deserves the benefit of the doubt, and zbr5 doesn't strike me as stupid or mean either.

Question everything, even vegan/vegetarian dogma, not just images.

If anyone thinks the images are photo-shopped, then by all means offer up the worst image of Nigella and the best image of Gillian that you can find that you think are real (or any other images or data you wish to proffer) and let us decide for ourselves instead of complaining. Thanks.

A plant-heavy diet can be healthy for some people as long as it includes certain nutrient-rich animal foods (see Denise Minger and Stephan Guyenet for evidence on this). I suspect that it's only vegetarian/vegan extremism that zbr5, Rawzi and KD are raising questions about. No harm in that.

[Dorothy]

I don't have time tonight to read both PP and KD's posts so this is just to KD.

You proved my point exactly. If they had posted before and after shots of the same woman  at least there would maybe be even a shred of pertinence, but this is about two completely different women! The comparison of these two women is meaningless and cruel. I have no idea what if any claims the first woman makes about reversing aging  - does she make such claims or is she just saying that detoxifying is healthier than not?

I had thought that this group seemed a bit kinder and gentler than the raw groups, but alas, looks like none of you are ever going to see a picture of me either!

[PaleoPhil]

What about the cruelty of the thread in which Rawzi said people "kept making fun of how awfully fat Nigella is"? Seems like a double standard to only complain about the posting of Gillian's image, which is hardly a horrible crime, and not about the insults directed at Nigella, which seems more blatant and egregious.

[Dorothy]

Phil, RawZi did not originally post the pictures when I commented and I don't know the other posts and I am not commenting on vegans making claims nor calling anyone stupid, just the idea of such pictures prove anything is stupid and just that to make fun of any person for not looking as good as a wealthy, naturally attractive star proves nothing at all. The rest of the issues brought up here I have not commented on nor on the pros and cons of any diet. I just don't like unfair criticisms of anyone.

You are comparing before and after pictures of one individual and I know enough about photography to pick those apart too - but won't - because it's not my point and showing pictures of healthy and attractive people eating any diet is not pertinent to what I said.

All this going back and forth about the diets means nothing. I said the same thing on the vegan forums and this forum is sounding just illogical atm.

I'm starting to think that if I were to post my picture here if you liked it you would say it's because I'm eating RAF and if you didn't you would say it was because I ate a different diet before.

The pictures people post here of their before and after shots or pictures of themselves looking and feeling healthy are nothing but positive.

Please don't accuse me of making points that I did not make.

[Dorothy]

I would like to add something:

I don't think this negative approach does raw paleo service.

 If I wanted to make a point with such an approach that RAFs are bad all I would have to do is post lots of pictures of me looking great and much healthier (and dramatically younger) of my self with my earlier diets (taken professionally with amazing lighting and I have some with the best professional makeup as well) and then myself now by any Joe Schmo. My hair suddenly turned very gray, I gained between 20 and 30 pounds and I look terrible (which could easily be made to look worse just by not having a good photographer, bad posing and head tilt, bad lighting, no tan and no makeup). How bad I look has started since adding RAFs to my diet. Without any more information and just pictures it would be an open and shut case against RAFs which was the only difference in my diet. But....... what would be left out is that I went through a horrible trauma and an amount of stress that I didn't think was sustainable by a human, while going a week at a time without sleeping and then the death of my mother that I was caring for 24 hours a day in a situation that was so traumatic that I wouldn't even want to describe it. What also would not be evident from a picture is that when I was up all night for about half a year the only thing that kept me going and helped me not to die and preserve my brain and sanity (in my own opinion) was wanting to eat and only eating salmon and raw egg yolks all night. When I stopped having to stay up all night my weight suddenly shot up. Since adding red meat to my diet I look even worse because I started to eat red meat right after my mother died and I was in shock, mourning and collapse from the stress.

That lady on the left that I know absolutely nothing about and for all I know might have healed herself of an incurable disease from which she would be dead 10 years ago or might have been a life-long cripple until she started doing what she is doing or have gone through some real stress when the lady on the right didn't or even lead a life of leisure and had health starting in the womb - I know almost nothing about either of them from those pictures or the statements below them let alone their genetics or how their parents ate. I know nothing of her claims and to assume that every vegan, raw vegan or vegetarian claims to be able to get younger as they age is blatantly not true because I never even heard of such a thing until recently and the only reason I ate that way was because I felt better than when I didn't. Attacking a person for something without showing that they claim that their diet makes someone look younger and younger, is very unfair.

I saw in the other raw forum I was in before coming here that raw vegans make all sorts of claims based on pictures of how good or bad people look including RAFers and meat eaters. There are some raw vegans that look better than some meat eaters. It proves nothing and I used to argue this logical point all the time on those forums until I realize that there was no talking logic with firm believers of a certain approach.

So, if this is going to be about the belief that a certain diet is better and pasting in the pictures that support that belief and not on logic, then I will likely get myself just as frustrated here as I did with the raw vegans.

[TylerDurden]

Couple of obvious points to make:-

It is generally the case that the fatter a person is, the better looking their skin is when they are older, because extra fat in the skin means  having fewer wrinkles. Why do you think there is a fad among some men for BBWs, for example? So, whether Nigella is fatter than someone else is relevant. The extra fat on her could well be extremely unhealthy, but she might look better on a  superficial  level than someone a lot skinnier or emaciated who happens to be healthier.

Here is a photo of "ugly" Nigella Lawson:-
http://www.magxone.com/uploads/2010/10/Nigella-Lawson-Magazine-2.jpg

 It just goes to show that if one takes a photo in a different lighting etc. , one can get an entirely different appearance in the photo. Most other photos show her to be more gamine and pretty. I think it's a certainty that she has used plastic surgery. A 51(?) year old woman that high-profile on TV who depended far more on her appearance to get her  TV audience than any other "attribute", just has to have had some botox, nose job etc. etc. Simply put, a woman on an unhealthy SAD diet is extremely unlikely not to show some signs of serious aging past 40. Men can often get away with not looking aged for longer, due to their having thicker skin, regardless of diet, but that's rarer for women - by contrast, I've heard reports of middle-aged RVAFer women looking at least 10 years younger than their SAD-eating contemporaries.

Secondly, the photos that Paleophil showed of me actually harm his points.  First of all, the photo of me with a shirt on shows me to have seriously bloodshot eyes and looking supposedly haggard and sickly. I think it was taken after c.6 months or so of doing the raw, palaeolithic diet. By contrast, photos of me a few months before going in for RVAF diets showed me looking very fat but jolly. The truth was, though, that before RVAF diets I was suffering from appalling ill-health and a lot of extreme pain, and, while I looked rather grim, in that photo on the left taken 6 months into this diet, I was far happier and in far better health than in  previous years, with no constant, awful stomach-pains, no dizziness, no chronic fatigue etc. etc.

The photo of me on the right, provided by Paleophil from rawpaleodiet.com, is also highly deceptive. If you look at the whole photo, you would see that I was, at the time, actually extremely thin and had very skinny arms. Indeed, in the photo I made a humorous self-mocking-pose a la Schwarzenegger, with arms upraised, precisely because I was well aware of my own  skeletal appearance. I should add that, at the time, I had been experimenting for many months with the concept of caloric restriction/fasting diets, which was why I was so emaciated-looking. Granted, though, I looked healthier than in the other photo, as this one was made c. a year or so later into this diet.

[RawZi]

I had thought that this group seemed a bit kinder and gentler than the raw groups, but alas, looks like none of you are ever going to see a picture of me either!

    I saw a picture of you on GI2MR, hair, clothes etc, not face I think.  Eventually Dhru either stopped banning my IP or it's because I moved.

    I was concerned when I made a comment here about the side by side photo that I'd look bad for saying anything, but .. I'm stating some of what I've been through.

    Over on GI2MR, unlike other basically vegan raw online communities I was and am still in under same name RawZi all along, there were some cruel people.  Some thin beautiful models pictures were posted, but non-raw vegan, so there was tearing apart by posters looking for one drop of cellulite so they could insist whatever woman should be raw vegan fruitarian etc or just plain feel guilty lol.

    I didn't mind DurianRider calling me a sumo wrestler.  Number one, I have been a creative and performing artist, and constructive criticism or what we accept as such can help, nothing hurts if able to take it right.  Plus I'm far from a Sumo, although lol I'd like to try wrestling now.  At that time I was so in synch and really looking great, firm, trim, shapely etc, but still I wouldn't post my picture; because I don't need any group or anyone to pick on my looks.  I've been around long enough, even pretty old people can be immature and never stop saying "too fat" "too skinny" etc etc.  They have their own self image problems, and I don't need their words to describe me after they see my picture.  I like better when they see me in person and hug me and tell me I smell good and say they wish they had my eating history cause I look great etc, and I have beeeeen through lots of parts of many levels of hell.

    I gave an incredible amount to many on that forum, and many wanted me back, but some were just so repeatedly non-stop cruel, I have a limit.  Sigh, that's all for now.

    Yes, I know all too well what it's like not to sleep for years helping loved ones (or not to sleep for years due to other stresses or to be through incredible things only one in a trillion could accept live through etc).  I'm glad you could bring it up here.  I hope you are feeling better.  There is some good, even after loved ones are gone, it's worth it, that they knew you were there for them through the worst times.  Also learn things, the bonds, you will still experience beautiful things from it for years.

    Hey, gray hair isn't ugly.  It can obviously have someone appear older, but it doesn't have to detract from natural beauty.  I think we all know you are beautiful, even if we have no idea what you look like.

     

   

[KD]

We all know even on seemingly 'poor' diets that a few average joes/sues with no plastic surgery will hold up better than many people in the WHOLE spectrum of alternative health. However, certain parts of that spectrum seem to hold up worse than others yet make the MOST claims.  We also see people on diets antithetical to certain aspects of this forum (like cooking) and not all these people take on serious health issues right after looking good into their 70's. Painting such a picture is just not 100% true. Assuming people MUST be cheating in someway by default is also therefore untrue and morally dubious. To consistently 'rationalize' this disconnect is problematic regardless of which 'lifestyle' we are talking about. People just have to sift through which aspects and trends are working and which are not and be honest about it and not defend their ideology to the death.  Instead, It would be nice if people show SOME humility towards that fact that when considering a 'life' and not a piece of paper, no one really knows what the best factors for natural beauty,longevity etc...are. Generally what is easier (and so what people like to focus on) is which ones LIKELY will accelerate more problems. Often it is people that clearly have accelerated problems that think they have all the answers for other people, and this is not unique to veganism unfortunately.

The comparison is 'fair' as it is linked to a 'conversation' about which things facilitate what. I do not personally believe for a second that Nigella would look in any way the way she does following McKeiths diet and cleansing protocol and that is all that matters to me. At the end of the day if people are going to die at the same age, I think they would have rather lived lives like Nigella than had a little more mecury in their systems. Ironically folks like Aajonus who actually factor in those things heavily into weighing someones health have said that extremely overweight alcoholics ended up having less internal damage (in their organs) due to such living (fat) than countless former alt-health advocates of other systems who religiously avoid cooked food and/or animal food. Which back to the topic, is exaccerbated more by being veg -which offers no true mechanisms (according to him) for getting rid of those poisons.

The constant making of claims that veganism, general raw food eating, or cleansing or 'leaving out this or that' or any other EFFORTS people will go into as automatically having better results is what is unfair. This is always under the assumption that it is better than basically (stupid - always implied) people who live their lives more or less following conventions (a range of the least healthy to the most). Evidence comes out all the time showing this is not true. This evidence is not just in photo form, but supplemented by other information. It seems people do not want to acknowledge the possibilities that energies are possibly wasted on things that do not matter, OR a nutritional science itself is severely flawed, particularly when one rationalizes not even meeting RDA's or basic other minimums of nutrition or are unable due to ideologies about what is good to eat food that actually can BUILD healthy tissue and fat etc, not just AVOID 'bad things'. Of course this generally becomes way more prevalent in veg, raw veg etc...

If poople want to 'cherry-pick' images of 'celebrities' like AV, Sisson, or google: "Robb Wolf got a gut?", etc..and show a 20 year old 1-year veg that they claim is 80 I don't really care personally. If I had time I might get in there and argue if one image is indeed cherry-picked but it just isn't a big deal to me. I doubt in this case either of the two parties will notice or care. I don't think of this forum as being gentler personally. I do think most people try to get to the 'meat' of an issue and sometimes its probably very 'cut-throat'  in that way for better or worse. Of course using random individuals from a forum without their say is somewhat different/poor taste than people who are basically 'celebrities' who suggest their diet is something to be modeled or individuals that make or imply claims that their approach will certainly give people greater outward and inner results.

[Iguana]

Without any more information and just pictures it would be an open and shut case against RAFs which was the only difference in my diet. But....... what would be left out is that I went through a horrible trauma and an amount of stress that I didn't think was sustainable by a human, while going a week at a time without sleeping and then the death of my mother that I was caring for 24 hours a day in a situation that was so traumatic that I wouldn't even want to describe it. What also would not be evident from a picture is that when I was up all night for about half a year the only thing that kept me going and helped me not to die and preserve my brain and sanity (in my own opinion) was wanting to eat and only eating salmon and raw egg yolks all night. When I stopped having to stay up all night my weight suddenly shot up. Since adding red meat to my diet I look even worse because I started to eat red meat right after my mother died and I was in shock, mourning and collapse from the stress.
 

Very true, other issues than food also determine our health state and appearance. Moreover, as TD pointed out, you can’t tell by the look of someone. I’ve a very healthy looking neighbor, but he already had an open-heart operation and as I met him just a few days ago, he told me he was one week in hospital. He still looks fine!

[TylerDurden]

KD, here is talking about exceptions to the rule, people who look amazing  regardless of their actual health, which are merely "exceptions to the rule".

Thnaks, KD, for that last sentence, which seems to me to illustrate PP's choice of my own photos!

[Dorothy]

KD, I understand your personal experience with people making claims about a diet that were false and selling an idea that has done you harm and how pertinent that is to you when discussing diets and I realize that veganism is the theme of this thread. I, want to make clear though that I am simply referring to whether or not it is logical, pertinent, in the best interest of this forum or as you put it "in good taste" to compare such photos when making a point about our diets as compared to any other diet. It makes us appear just as attached to an idea to the point where we attack individuals without basis - just like RawZi was attacked. It should not matter if they are members here or will see this conversation or not. The picture is of an individual and with that picture had no account that she said her diet would make people look young. It says nothing. To make everyone that is vegan fit into the same box makes no sense and to attack a whole group that would be the most likely to be interested in investigating our diet makes even less sense. She is a human being worthy of giving basic respect to and besides -- it's more about what it says about US when we make such comparisons.

I could say a great deal more - but Iguana gave me the good advice to try to make my posts shorter. 

RawZi, I'm so sorry you had to go through that. I bet you would whip the ass of anyone who attacked you before in a wrestling match now! And yes, thank you, day by day I am rebuilding my stores of nutrients that were used up and doing little things to rebuild. I'm unfamiliarly delicate, but each day a bit stronger. And YOU'RE RIGHT! I did post a picture of my BACK sound asleep with my beagle upside down equally knocked out that makes me smile ear to ear now because of my friends there that made uproarious fun with it. I do miss the good folks, but the crazies - were just too off the wall scary crazy!

Tyler - I'm so glad you spoke of your pictures. I could go into an analysis of them, but you said enough. The good part is that you are feeling better and better and I appreciate it that you shared your pictures.

Iguana - you understood me!