detox

[svrn]

I am confused about the whole issue of detox. I hear that for the first year or so of raw paleo, people usually have intermittent bouts of detox. I usually have several days where I feel better than I ever have before interspersed with a day or two sometimes of what many describe as detox. What I want to know is why should I think these symptoms are a sign of something good rather than bad? Shouldnt vomiting and such because of your diet indicate that you are doing something wrong? If not that, then what other thing would possibly indicate that what I was doing is wrong? It seems to me a bit counter intuitive to not take the signals my body gives in the natural instinctual way of "this is making me feel sick, I shouldnt do it anymore". I feel like I am going against my body somewhat when I label my illness just detox rather than a signal of pain from my body indicating to me that I should cease said painful actions.

In other words, what is the proof that this indicates healing rather than indicating me poisoning myself, which would be the standard reaction?

[eveheart]

My personal opinion: detox is too harsh to be of general use to me. I prefer a slow health improvement by eating right each day. My previous experience with radical measures such as fruit-only or juice-only routines is that my body got too weak to be healthy.

Aajonus's WWTL was the first raw paleo book I read, then I found this forum and adopted a more moderate approach. I'm eliminating problems such as arthritis, hip/mobility problems, psorasis, constipation, hemorrhoids, water retention, and symptoms of gallbladder and diabetes with a RVAF routine. I tried using raw dairy, but I quickly stopped after some problems with so-called detox. Moderation just seems so, well, moderate(!), that I think it has to be right.

[svrn]

In what ways are you moderate? Are you not doing the normal raw paleo diet? If so, I thought that that was supposed to have detox as well? If not, tell me what you are doing to have a more moderate health transition.

[eveheart]

"Normal" raw paleo to me means approximating how and what a person ate in the old stone age - before the agricultural age - so I avoid the advice of what I call "primal" gurus. For example? the ones who advocate raw meat plus grand amounts of juices or butter or some such thing that I don't have around my cave. Maybe I'd consult such a healer if I were at the last stages of a for-sure fatal illness, but I was only on the verge of being an invalid, not on the doorstep of death.

Sure, I must be eliminating toxins, or else how would I explain that my joints aren't painfully inflamed any more, or that my feet and ankles aren't swollen? My skin looks great. My former bald spot from imbalanced hormones has plenty of hair for a normal hairstyle.

There is no stone tablet with "normal" raw paleo handed down from a bazillion years ago. It's just me eating clean, identifiable foods in appetite-sized amounts. I would rather have a slow detox, not release large amounts of toxins into my system and then suffer through the elimination of those toxins. Like the saying goes, if you improve just 1% per day, you will improve 365% in one year. That's fast enough for me.

[TylerDurden]

When I first started on RVAF diets and reading online RVAF diet groups, I noticed, gradually, that the people reporting the most frequent, violent "detoxes" were ones who were consuming lots of raw dairy. I eventually realised that these were not genuine detoxes, and cut out all raw dairy from my diet, and my health improved quickly after that.

Basically, a genuine detox should (usually but not always) be minor or moderate in effect, and one should feel slightly better afterwards than before. In my own case, I felt fine mostly on RVAF diets, except for my raw-dairy-phase. I did have one detox in the first 2-3 days of going RVAF, which resulted in me having to go to the toilet every 30 minutes or so, and had green diarrhea. After that, I had minor flu-like symptoms once every 2 to 4 months, lasting from 2 to 7 days, until these health-detoxes finished after 2 years. I know they were genuine since I always felt a little better afterwards.
 I still sometimes get a minor detox after the occasional eating of cooked foods, if I don't also eat some raw food around the same time, but, in that case, it's just the body getting rid of toxins from that cooked meal.

[svrn]

Eveheart, how long did it take for your joint to not be inflamed anymore?

Anyway, wwhat im really trying to get at is, where did this concept of sickness=detox come from? Where can I read something scientific that proves this is detox of past toxins or just detox of toxins im currently ingesting?

[eveheart]

how long did it take for your joint to not be inflamed anymore?

My hips were badly inflamed, with a painful limp. At work, I was accommodated with a golf-cart for transportation between buildings. For the distances where I had to walk, it was slow and painful, and I constantly felt like giving up, lying down on the ground, and dialing 9-1-1. I started RPD in mid-April 2011. Now it's 6 months later, and I can walk at normal speed with co-workers. I no longer use the cart. I can do my own housecleaning. I still have some healing to do, but I'm not on the verge of needing a wheelchair.

I had frozen shoulders, too. They have much more range of motion, but not 100% yet. The pain in my shoulders is a fraction of what it used to be - I'd wake up in pain every 2 hours, now I sleep through the night. I don't take pain medication any more. Moderate exercise makes me feel better now, not worse.

I can't advise you on your request for scientific proof of what is being detoxified. That is a question that does not interest me, so I've never looked into it. I'm cynical when it comes to written proof - it seems that everything has written proof, and then you can look and find written proof that all the other written proof is wrong. I'm satisfied that I am getting all good results, and that my body, my mind, and my appetite aren't rebelling against what I am doing, as if to tell me, "This is right."

[TylerDurden]

Hmm, if you don't mind, eveheart, I would like to use your above post and show it to some members of the older generation. A lot of these fools think that they shouldn't change etc., so the few who are least affected are forced to take pain-medication etc., while the others are basically handicapped one way or another.

[svrn]

Im not looking for written proof so much as just some information about where this idea of detox originated.

[HIT_it_RAW]

My hips were badly inflamed, with a painful limp. At work, I was accommodated with a golf-cart for transportation between buildings. For the distances where I had to walk, it was slow and painful, and I constantly felt like giving up, lying down on the ground, and dialing 9-1-1. I started RPD in mid-April 2011. Now it's 6 months later, and I can walk at normal speed with co-workers. I no longer use the cart. I can do my own housecleaning. I still have some healing to do, but I'm not on the verge of needing a wheelchair.

Thats simply amazing! Congrats on that!

How did your colleagues' family etc react to that? I know that if I saw that transformation I would want to know what you are doing.

[HIT_it_RAW]

When I first started on RVAF diets and reading online RVAF diet groups, I noticed, gradually, that the people reporting the most frequent, violent "detoxes" were ones who were consuming lots of raw dairy. I eventually realised that these were not genuine detoxes, and cut out all raw dairy from my diet, and my health improved quickly after that.

It is at least possible that those people experienced faster and therefore extremer detox because they used more animal fat. Dairy fat is so easy to get/and eat in large quantaties as AV indeed suggest.

Dont get me wrong though I'm fully aware that dairy is disastrous for some people. For me its just fine. I tried a few months without dairy and noticed no difference. Now I use just raw kefir and butter.

[HIT_it_RAW]

I did have a rather severe detox when I started rvaf and a few less severe later on. AV suggest thaat if rapid detox is wanted certain fruits combined with lots of raw fat will do that. I think he is right there. If I ate pineapple with lots of raw fat I got a detox. Haven't tried it recently though. Could also be that the combination digest very bad and thus gives detox symptons. Feel lik a real detox however. Headache, diarhea, fatique, sweating.

[svrn]

So lots of fat=detox? What is the mechanism by which this happens? Does aajonus say the fat in dairy is good for detox?

How much of my diet should be fat?I usually eat a good amount of fat everyday and on the day I had lots of pineapple i remember having somewhat of a detox.

[TylerDurden]

Lots of raw fat did nothing for me re generating detox. My detoxes occurred at random, and I would be suspicious of any food consumed automatically generating "detox". The only exception to this was when I first consumed edible clay and immediately got a detox - clay is a well-known detoxifier, though, as studies show.

[cherimoya_kid]

My hips were badly inflamed, with a painful limp. At work, I was accommodated with a golf-cart for transportation between buildings. For the distances where I had to walk, it was slow and painful, and I constantly felt like giving up, lying down on the ground, and dialing 9-1-1. I started RPD in mid-April 2011. Now it's 6 months later, and I can walk at normal speed with co-workers. I no longer use the cart. I can do my own housecleaning. I still have some healing to do, but I'm not on the verge of needing a wheelchair.

I had frozen shoulders, too. They have much more range of motion, but not 100% yet. The pain in my shoulders is a fraction of what it used to be - I'd wake up in pain every 2 hours, now I sleep through the night. I don't take pain medication any more. Moderate exercise makes me feel better now, not worse.

Wonderful.  It's very heartening to hear your story.

[Adora]

I think I may be having a detox right now. I had some bone marrow delivered today and I've been wanting to eat fat badly. So, I ate all I wanted, which was just 4 bone marrow middles from about 1inch bone, but I added mustard and egg yolks and mixed it up. Then I dipped my venison heart and some hamburger in it. It was so good. The best meal I've had. I don't think I over ate, but I ate all I could. Now I feel like the mustard is sitting in the back of my throat and I want to go to bed. Also, the fat isn't digesting the same as what I've experienced. Usually I feel satisfied but, flat tummied, right after eating. I ate about 1 hour ago and I still feel like it's there, in a sloshy way. This said, I don't really feel bad. Just not good.  I also packed this for lunch tommorrow and I won't eat much if I'm still feeling this way.

[eveheart]

How did your colleagues' family etc react to that? I know that if I saw that transformation I would want to know what you are doing.

People have a strong self-identity with their own habits and their own ailments (my arthritis,  my diabetes, my coffee). I perceived a benefit from illness and a reward from certain foods, and that bound me to the habits and symptoms, and prevented me from eating right.

Family and co-workers admire my results, but they still say things like, "I'm not giving up my frozen yogurt!" or "I can't live without my soda." They see what I'm doing, but they don't see themselves making any changes. When their time is right, changes will happen.

I made changes because I reached my personal threshold of pain. The last straw was realizing that my granddaughter had an invalid grandmother who couldn't do much of anything with her.

Hmm, if you don't mind, eveheart, I would like to use your above post and show it to some members of the older generation. A lot of these fools think that they shouldn't change etc., so the few who are least affected are forced to take pain-medication etc., while the others are basically handicapped one way or another.

Be my guest. Remember, being stubbornly closed-minded is an Olympic sport for many people. Don't nag.

[letsdoiteczema]

@eveheart

I wonder why nobody posted after your amazing post. I just want to say that your post was so funny and true. "Olympic sport" indeed. I have also seen this in my family members. I do what I can by ordering natural  (as natural as possible) shampoos, makeup products, hair gel for them as they insist to use them, no matter how many links detailing toxicity I send them.

Open-mindedness is definitely a rare thing, but I do believe that most people, when given solid evidence in the form of scientific reports etc, are more likely to believe in something. Of course, it is really not entirely their fault for being close minded, western medicine has been brainwashing them since their birth.

[joej627]

Yea it really is hard.  It takes something fairly extreme to shake people from the "box" that they grew up in.  I mean think of the commercials, ads, etc today hitting kids from birth on.  If it doesn't fit that box then its not really real.  To go "outside" of the box means to challenge or question everything about the society we live in.

[Dorothy]

Troll - part of what might be a confusion is that many of the people (I think including Eveheart) already transitioned off of most of the worst offenders of the standard american diet before arriving to raw paleo. When I first started eating better I got rid of say coca cola and spam first. It's a lot different going from a raw vegan diet to paleo than going from SAD to paleo.

Where the ideas originated from I do not know but there is a great deal of scientific data on what is known as the herxheimer reaction - which is more of the scientific word for detox that causes sickness and even kills. Perhaps that will give you a hint for a way to start your search for origins.