Metasexuality (split from "Can we do w/o vegetables/greens?")

[Dorothy]

I tried to present what I consider some of the most interesting points in GCB’s theory. Questioning is welcome: he never pretended to detain the ultimate and definitive truth. You’re free to present your own point of view, and you largely did.

Cheers
François

Interesting that you have determined that I have largely presented my point of view Iguana. How could you know the parameters of my point of view - especially when you don't seem to understand even the most rudimentary of things I have tried to discuss?

I've been trying to get through just a couple of tiny points but have not been able to, but that's ok. You have gotten through to me some of the basics of what GCB put forth and I can read his treatise later for more details if I think it will add anything to my understanding of psychology. I have increased my knowledge of the Instincto movement and some expansion of the tenants of psychoanalytic theory and generally my sense of the man and his experiences that put forth those theories. I'm afraid I wasn't able to add much at all even though my thoughts are pretty vast on the subject after studying it myself in such detail for so long. A basic desire to want to understand each other is necessary for a conversation to work. I don't have a need to be understood here or a desire to continue to attempt to get my most basic points across with more time and words. Better not to use more of your time with something you are not interested in or waste my time either putting forth something with no interest to you or likely others since no one else has commented.

Again - thanks for the education. If anyone wants to discuss any of this further with me - pm me - as I'm going to bow out of this conversation now. 

Another ancient Hindu word that I love is Namaste. It has similarities to a Hawaiian word that also has great meaning to me -- Aloha. I send the essence of the meaning of these two words to you Iguana. Sometimes the English language just doesn't express well enough even with all it's masses of words.

[cherimoya_kid]

... my thoughts are pretty vast on the subject...

What if noone is interested in them?  Will you attempt to inflict them upon us anyway?

Maybe this isn't the best moment to have this discussion, but I've been wanting to ask anyway--is it your intention to just inflict your philosophies and beliefs upon the forum, whether anyone cares what you think on non-nutritional subjects or not?

[Dorothy]

What if noone is interested in them?  Will you attempt to inflict them upon us anyway?

Maybe this isn't the best moment to have this discussion, but I've been wanting to ask anyway--is it your intention to just inflict your philosophies and beliefs upon the forum, whether anyone cares what you think on non-nutritional subjects or not?

Is it your intention to be nasty Cheri?

I said above since no one had responded and it didn't seem like Iguana was interested that I would not waste any more of anyone's time - I think that was pretty clear. I also think it's telling that you wanted to make sure that you spoke for everyone and to put in some abuse while you were at it. If you weren't interested - why read it? Do you feel like you have to like everything that is said on the forum even in the Hot Topics and similar sections? I did not start this subject - I just participated.

Where does all that hostility come from? 

Are you trying to tell me not to post any more Cheri because you think I "inflict" by responding? Are you trying to intimidate me into leaving? Congratulations, your bullying will make me stop posting. Now the forum can be quieter and more in agreement with you.

So little kindness and so much aggression here.

Perhaps I inflict by posting ideas that you and perhaps others aren't interested in or don't like - but in my opinion you inflict cruelty. I'd rather not be wanted than to carry such things as it seems you do in your heart Cheri.

I've been wondering if it's the Paleo diet that makes for so much hostility or if it's just certain people's aggressive natures that make it so that others are afraid of posting so that an aggressive impression is left by default. Well, the bullying will make me not post any more and I have met at least a few very compassionate and loving people here - so I bet like me others are intimidated. I would rather avoid being bullied and spoken to cruelly - so you get your wish.

I leave you with namaste as well.









 

[van]

Yeah, I have to stand up for Dorothy.    Cherimoya, what's with your words to her?  Why the seeming harsh attitude?  She basically was having a discussion with Iguana.  May I suggest you reconsider what you said and see if you wish you hadn't said that.  Just a suggestion.  Attacks like  yours will squelch the free nature of this forum, and it will eventually turn out like so many others,,,  chasing people away.   Doesn't speak well for what and  who we believe we are;  healthy and open.   

[Inger]

Dorothy.. I just wanted to say that I am seeing you in this discussion about Metasexuality.
I have the papers (and have read them years ago) from Burger about Metasexuality, and they have lots of deep insight but there is something very dangerous with them in my view too... and that something makes it to a lie.. sadly. I also do not personally like/believe in the "animalistic approach" that is surrounding it.. I am thinking we are, even if we are mammals for sure, but at the same time something very different. I did not wanted to chime in in the discussion before because IMHO the instinctos have kind of "their religion" what they will not discuss other than explaining their believes what they say are scientific. And I never discuss religion. It just makes zero sense. I am sorry for outing my opinion now because I am not meaning it to be an attack. I just need to tell.. it just does not work that way how they preach at least often not. Many true and good things but also stuff that is doing harm because it is leaving things out. very important things.. This is just my own opinion and experiences and what I have seen personally.

[Projectile Vomit]

Cherimoya-kid, I have to say you're the most abusive moderator I've ever experienced on an internet forum. How did you get your moderator privileges in the first place? And even more, why do the other moderators let you keep them?

I think it's past your bed time.

[Iguana]

I hope Dorothy will stay with us. We had some disagreements, but if everyone agrees on everything there would be no reason to have forums.

I know it's difficult to clearly separate subjects because there are always something connecting them and it's necessary to have some leeway. But anyway, it would perhaps have been  better to open a new topic with a title like « A theory about love and chakras" or "Dorothy's  theory about love and chakras"  since this one is dedicated to GCB's metasexuality. Then we could have selectively moved  the concerning posts over there.

[Iguana]

Dorothy.. I just wanted to say that I am seeing you in this discussion about Metasexuality.
I have the papers (and have read them years ago) from Burger about Metasexuality, and they have lots of deep insight but there is something very dangerous with them in my view too... and that something makes it to a lie.. sadly.

What papers do you have? We took some notes during the seminars, he gave us a few photocopies of papers published in scientific publications such as “Nature” or psychoanalytic specialized magazines on connected subjects. There was also fascicules with photocopies of pages of Freud, Jung, Reich and Plato annotated by himself. But AFAIK there was no papers explaining synthetically and globally the whole theory. You had to follow the seminars and discuss it in group along with him to understand the whole thing and question it.

What is a lie, please? What is dangerous? In analogy, is eating raw food more dangerous than cooked food? Are the conventional dogmas about love and sexuality safe? How may people suicide because love fails? How many love dramas end in murder? How many live alone and sad, divorce in anger, start to drink or take drugs, etc, etc? 

I also do not personally like/believe in the "animalistic approach" that is surrounding it.. I am thinking we are, even if we are mammals for sure, but at the same time something very different.

It’s funny, because it’s exactly what he says! Your above paragraph makes me casts a serious doubt whether you properly understood or remember  what you read. No wonder because of what I mention above: one could hardly understand the whole thing without the explanation,  discussions and questioning that filled one week of intense brainstorming along with some well learned  participants. I followed twice the stage 1 seminar and never went further: there was more than enough to assimilate and following it twice was not even enough.

I did not wanted to chime in in the discussion before because IMHO the instinctos have kind of "their religion" what they will not discuss other than explaining their believes what they say are scientific. And I never discuss religion. It just makes zero sense.

Neither do I.
 
There’s no such species as “instinctos”. But there are various individuals who more or less practice a kind of instinctonutrition or instinctotherapy. Some are clever, some are complete morons, most vehemently disagree which GCB about his metasexuality theory (without properly knowing what it is) and are furious with him because he doesn’t drop it.

Most of the first day of his “meta 1” seminar was bestowed to make clear that a theory is never the ultimate truth, but nothing more than a provisional, approximate and imperfect model which has to be relentlessly questioned and will be completed, modified or abandoned in the future if and when a new theory better explaining the known facts or newly known facts will be provided. So, his position is exactly opposed to a religious one, which is in another indication that you know what you talk about only by heavily distorted hearsay. 

Do you thing the text BODY PLEASURE AND THE ORIGINS OF VIOLENCE by James W. Prescott from "The Bulletin of The Atomic Scientists" of November 1975 which I  linked here is religious? J.W.Prescott is “a neuropsychologist, health scientist administrator at the National Institute of Child Health and Human Development in Bethesda, Maryland. He is a member of the Board of Directors of the American Humanist Association.” Didn’t you notice this guy is saying almost exactly what GCB says in his “meta” theory? Is such a man a religious moron like you seem to imply I am? Are atomic scientists interested in religious thinking, heh? 

Cheers
François

[Inger]

You know Francois.. it seems to me that at some points one can claim we are so not animals but in another issue then that we are, in a way that just do not fit together.. in my world. This must read very confusing.. I am so sorry. I just do not have the skills to explain it better and I know I failed already to make anyone get it.. probably. But it is also not what I am after right now.. I do not try to convince anyone about my view. I have so much others issues I have to use my energies on right now. My own healing.
I never questioned raw is better! Now the thing about eating what smells and tastes the best.. that this is the best for us.. that I disagree with from own experience. For me it just did not worked that way. I would never have tried fishheads or rotten meat if I would have thought that way. Maybe that is a way to do it when we are totally healed but I know no one that is. So then comes the issues.. do you see what I am trying to say Francois?
I would actually love to debate with you on this issues in depth when I have the time for it.

Oh.. and the papers I have.. I got them from a instincto in Germany per mail. I printed them out. I do not remember exactly what the name was but I think it was just Metasexuality? It was a bunch of papers.. not only a few papers. He told me to keep it secret.
I could dig in my stuff to look for it but I have no idea where they are after all these moving back and forth.. huh.

[TylerDurden]

The idea behind Instincto is that exposure to cooked, processed foods make one loathe the taste of healthy, rawpalaeo foods. I'm a classic case in point. When I went rawpalaeo and before that, the taste of raw wild game was foul to me, and raw wild organ-meats tasted the most disgusting. However, after being mostly rawpalaeo for a a couple of years, I found that the taste of raw wild organ-meats became far richer and tastier than anything else, barring raw wild seafood.

[cherimoya_kid]

I've been wondering if it's the Paleo diet that makes for so much hostility or if it's just certain people's aggressive natures that make it so that others are afraid of posting so that an aggressive impression is left by default. Well, the bullying will make me not post any more and I have met at least a few very compassionate and loving people here - so I bet like me others are intimidated. I would rather avoid being bullied and spoken to cruelly - so you get your wish.

I leave you with namaste as well.

 

I personally feel that Hinduism is unduly influenced by cooking and grain-eating, and therefore needs to be approached with a skeptical attitude, to avoid the tainted aspects of it.  Certainly there are valuable practices in yoga, acupuncture, Ayurveda herbology and nutrition, energy work, etc..  However, it needs to be taken with a grain of salt, as do all Neolithic spiritual systems...and indeed, all spirituality period.

Hinduism, as an example, doesn't even recognize the existence of the "multiple-soul" theory, which is common to nearly all Paleo spiritual systems.  Even the Chinese, Neolithic as they are, recognize the reality/possiblity of having multiple souls in one person.

For that matter, I don't really think this should become a spirituality forum, and I have, as you'll remember, from the very beginning of your time here, resisted your efforts to turn it into one.  You are not ready to be a spiritual teacher, in my humble opinion, and I don't think it's appropriate for you to try to turn us into your unwilling disciples.

And as for your comments above, about Paleo making people aggressive....did you really think that would go over well?  I'm honestly curious.  I mean, feel free to engage in honest speculation and inquiry, but...questioning the very basis of a forum is rarely the way to convince it's membership and moderation, maybe, don't you think?  ROFL

Also, GCB is just theorizing.  He's not trying to use the weight of a 5,000-plus year-old spiritual system to give extra support to his statements, unlike you.  It's apples and oranges, and it's not entirely fair to try to compare the two, again, IMHO.

However, never mind all that.  This isn't a spirituality forum, and I don't think it should become one. 

I'm not trying to be nasty.  Nasty would be threatening to reban you.  I didn't do that, and wasn't even threatening that in a veiled way.  However, I'm not open to this becoming a spirituality forum, especially NEOLITHIC spirituality.  Healing practices are one thing, feel free to share those.  Sexual mores, though, should have to prove themselves, if they're going to be accepted unconditionally. Don't you think that's fair?  We force nutritional systems to prove themselves.  Why not moral and spiritual ones?

[Iguana]

I never questioned raw is better! Now the thing about eating what smells and tastes the best.. that this is the best for us.. that I disagree with from own experience. For me it just did not worked that way. I would never have tried fishheads or rotten meat if I would have thought that way. Maybe that is a way to do it when we are totally healed but I know no one that is. So then comes the issues.. do you see what I am trying to say Francois?
I would actually love to debate with you on this issues in depth when I have the time for it.

Ok, we can talk more about it later because anyway I will be without Internet connection next week.

The theory about smell and taste is just a rough draft not to be taken for the only and sufficient thing. The training with experienced others is essential to discover new foods, get used to it bit by bit, overcome cultural and psychological blockings by perhaps closing our eyes and carefully test a bit of something which doesn’t smell good initially, even if we have to spit if its taste is bad. That seems to be what you did and you’ve well done. Not everybody is able to discover that alone and I was unable myself. We would do it in nature when sufficiently hungry, and in our civilized world we never have a chance to be really hungry.

[van]

hostility, aggression, something other than peaceful and kind.   I had that when I really started eating meat more than a couple of times a week.  Hard to tell exactly why.  My guesses;  in line with instincto,,  the raw protein molecules were aggressive cleansers and I started to eliminate cooked protein molecules from who knows how old,,, probably nasty little molecules.   Just as likely I might have been eating animals that hadn't been humanely killed.  I can remember eating elk that had to be tracked for many hours and then reshot again, when found.  That meat definitely caused me emotional instability.  So much so I called the hunter, suspicious, and asked about that elk.  He then told me how the animal had suffered for so many hours before dying.  Another reason is that it's easy to overeat in the beginning, and many simply don't have the stomach acids to digest large portions,,, as well as improper food combining,,, leading to undigested protein which will then rot, with associated organisms as aftermath.  I also suspect that those who complain that they faired poorly when trying low carb, also may be eating too much protein as a substitute for carbs, not completely trusting that there desire and ability to digest and use fat for fuel will increase with time.  I do believe that there is an adjustment period to shift to fat burning.   Just a hunch.  But more and more I am lessening my protein intakes and increasing my fat percentages.  And finally eating when not hungry, or eating to fill the time.  Again leading to toxic amounts of protein.   

[Inger]

Ok, we can talk more about it later because anyway I will be without Internet connection next week.

The theory about smell and taste is just a rough draft not to be taken for the only and sufficient thing. The training with experienced others is essential to discover new foods, get used to it bit by bit, overcome cultural and psychological blockings by perhaps closing our eyes and carefully test a bit of something which doesn’t smell good initially, even if we have to spit if its taste is bad. That seems to be what you did and you’ve well done. Not everybody is able to discover that alone and I was unable myself. We would do it in nature when sufficiently hungry, and in our civilized world we never have a chance to be really hungry.

Ok Francois, nice! I just have some real heavy stuff to solve in my private  life right now so I need my energy there..

About the taste and conditioning.. yes.. I see it as very important, the cultural and psychological blockings. They are almost impossible to come over or it will take years. That is why I believe one have to force oneself to get stuff down, or find a way to make it more plesurable, meanwhile.
I do this with my fishheadsmoothies, I close my nose.. so non instincto..lol and I also make delish dishes with some spices and raw onion and such. I am on my way. If I did not this I would still be addicted to sweet stuff like non local fruits that did me no good.
Maybe it is just psychological, to treat oneself and what tastes one is used to. My life certainly was stressful.
I am not sure either if it is any wrong to make delish dishes from raw foods if they are clever made without any negative effects (I do not mean  raw food cakes and stuff!).
It might be because we are human. It might be because we like to create. It might not be a bad thing at all as long as we use our brain and choose things that are good for us... I am just thinking out loud here..

[Inger]

The idea behind Instincto is that exposure to cooked, processed foods make one loathe the taste of healthy, rawpalaeo foods. I'm a classic case in point. When I went rawpalaeo and before that, the taste of raw wild game was foul to me, and raw wild organ-meats tasted the most disgusting. However, after being mostly rawpalaeo for a a couple of years, I found that the taste of raw wild organ-meats became far richer and tastier than anything else, barring raw wild seafood.

Tyler I must be weird then because it does not work that way on me at all. If I have had something (healthy) cooked I start to crave raw foods a lot! I never ever had the problem I started to eat more and more cooked and got away from raw. I just like raw better. It is juicier, crispier.. tastier.. I also have no ill effects so far if I eat some cooked mussels or fish. From meat I do feel some not so good effects. But I eat more fish anyways. I feel so good from it. It soothes my nerves. It calms me down.