Where to get started?

[Giantsbran]

I am a 22 year old battling chronic fatigue syndrome, along with several other ailments. I am bedridden and my health is in absolute shambles. I am very interested in trying out a raw primal diet but am not sure where to start. Any good books or websites you guys can recommend? I have terrible brain fog and its tough for me to sift through all the threads on this forum. To be honest Im still not even sure if this diet is legit. It seems very few people do it, and those that do end up quitting. It's tough to find stories of actual people who have recovered for serious illness using this diet.

Also most people I have talked too believe that a keto diet is not right for treating CFS. I was thinking of going low carb but using fruit and honey to stay out of ketosis.

Where should I buy my meat from? Will grass fed beef from whole foods be safe for consumption? Fortunately I have a place nearby where I can acquire raw dairy. Good sushi restaurants nearby where I can get sashimi too. I was also looking at ordering meat from grasslandbeef.com, do you think this will be safe to eat raw? Thanks for any help.

[TylerDurden]

Actually, most people who start this diet stick to it permanently. The reason is simple:- due to silly media-scares, most people only try a raw, palaeolithic diet after they have tried and failed  with virtually every other diet. This diet provides certain benefits which no other diet is capable of providing which is why it is becoming  gradually more popular.   Raw vegan and fruitarian diets are more likely to have people quit on them, as unlike a raw, palaeolithic diet, they do not provide all the nutrients a human body needs.

Here are a few threads to read through:-

http://www.rawpaleodietforum.com/important-info-for-newbies/

and this one:-

http://www.rawpaleodietforum.com/display-your-culinary-creations/high-meat-recipe-preparation-for-more-advanced-rafers/

I had chronic fatigue syndrome for many years prior to doing this diet, among many other illnesses. It took about 4 months for me to get rid of some of the worst health-problems I had, including the  chronic fatigue syndrome. I only got fully healed of all issues  after  c.2-3 years on the diet. My biggest regret was that I did not have the guts to try eating "high-meat" until after 3 years on the diet. This was a grave mistake as the impressive boost it gives to the brain would have sorted out my CFS issues much earlier. I would suggest trying "high-meat"(details in that 2nd link)

Incidentally, I do NOT recommend doing Aajonus's primal diet but simply a raw version of the palaeolithic diet. So, imho, avoid ALL dairy(raw or otherwise) as many rawists encounter problems with it and avoid those veggie-juices.

Lastly, there are far more RPDers around in the world than you might think. The Arctic tribes eat mostly raw and the Japanese eat a lot of raw fish(they prefer the fish to be raw). And there are tons of raw-animal-foodists in the US, it is just that we do not have any prominent diet-gurus right now so we lack visibility in the media. What we really need is  a good PR agency and a decent number of charismatic gurus.

[edmon171]

There is no need to over-complicate matters with books and other people's ideas, but as far as books go, the closest thing to the complete unbiased truth about diet I've ever seen has been good calories bad calories by gary taubes.

I would start by looking at this diet from a different perspective. Forget everything you've ever heard about food and health and safety for a moment. Imagine looking to nature with a clean slate. What diets do you see being followed in the animal kingdom? Out of these options, which of these animals do you want to be more like? Or where would you like to be on the food chain, and what kind of diet is followed by those animals in the position you seek.

Presumably, you'd want to be highly intelligent, social, incredibly strong, and full of limitless energy. Enough energy to chase down an animal twice your size and wrestle it to its death. In that case you want to follow in the footsteps of a hunting carnivore and the feeding pattern you should strive to emulate involves eating large amounts of fresh raw meat, with preference for the organs, then fat and fatty muscle, and having a day or three of rest and fasting between meals or feeding days. - The hunt yourself or farm direct raw carnivorous full keto paleo diet with intermittent fasting. = ultimate health.

Maybe you're not so ambitious and the very top of the food chain is not for you, but you still want to be near the top and not be considered prey. You will need lots of energy to track down food and compete with others for leftovers. Then you might follow the ways of a hunting scavenger. You are left with the lean muscle meats and some fat and skin. Maybe some fermented plant matter or fresh greens in the leftover stomach contents. Sometimes your food is fresh, sometimes it has aged a bit in the open air. You would eat this whenever possible and if not available, maybe some extra berries or whatever you find. - The raw, sometimes keto, paleo diet. = excellent health.

Or maybe you don't want too much out of life, but still want to be strong and able to defend yourself and your family when needed. The ways of a grazing animal will suit you. Eat plenty of greens and other plant foods that may have fallen to the ground. Maybe even some small game that is easily caught. The raw near-vegan paleo diet with meats on occasion = Pretty good health.

Perhaps you want no more health than a captive slave or farm animal. Then you should follow the human diet. Cook the living hell out of your stale or spoiled food, microwave it if you can, eat plenty of grains, dairy, sugars, lean cuts of factory farmed beef, pork, and chicken, chemicals, and do whatever else your masters tell you to and provide for you easily. If you can't even recognize what plant or part of the animal your food came from, even better. The Standard american diet. = not being dead is all the health you can hope for, if you are young or lucky.
 

[Giantsbran]

Perhaps you guys can explain a few questions I have....

First- What studies show that consuming raw meat is any better than cooked meat?

Second- Why is it that the "blue zones" all eat a diet high in starches, grains, legumes, while relatively low in animal products (ikaria, okinawa, sardinia, loma linda, etc.)?http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Zone

I have some more questions but lets start with those. I look forward to your answers! Thanks

[TylerDurden]

Iceland is known for having the highest longevity rates:-

http://digitaljournal.com/article/252701

 A while back, a study showed that the longest-lived nations were ones like Iceland  and Japan with most of their regions near the coast and having high amounts of seafood in their diets. A recent study mentioned by the Daily Mail  credited Japan's advanced average lifespan  as a result of eating raw fish.

There are virtually no studies on humans eating raw animal foods as such, other than studies done on the intake of a little raw cows' dairy(or maybe babies breastfed on human milk vs babies fed on bottled, pasteurised milk). This is as a result of insane health-and-safety laws and the lack of interest in raw products by large corporations as the latter far prefer that the public constantly consume  vast amounts of heavily-processed foods.

All that said, there are many thousands of scientific studies done on the actual harm created by cooking. Here's a typical example with lots of references to various scientific studies:-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raw_foodism#Toxins_created_by_cooking

Basically, cooking  destroys valuable enzymes and bacteria. It also creates nasty heat-created toxins such as advanced glycation end products(AGEs) which greatly  contribute to advanced aging effects and increased inflammation,  and advanced lipoxidation end products(ALEs), heterocyclic amines and polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons(both HCAs and PAHs are also components of cigarette-smoke and car-exhaust fumes), and  nitrosamines.  Cooking also drastically reduces the levels of vitamins and minerals in the relevant food and is seen as contributing to global warming due to wood-fires being started in the 3rd-world.

[eveheart]

Why is it that the "blue zones" all eat a diet high in starches, grains, legumes, while relatively low in animal products (ikaria, okinawa, sardinia, loma linda, etc.)?http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Zone

The Blue Zone's Power 9 includes only two food-related common denominators - and one of those has to do with not overeating. It's up to you whether or not you want to make the eat-plants "rule" so highly important. I think the other seven factors are vitally important, and other longevity studies bear this out.

Human pre-history has much more evidence about diet alone as a factor in health and longevity. There is something completely believable about health coming from the consumption of uncooked, unprocessed, natural foods. It's not hard to start - just buy and eat food that looks like food.

[Giantsbran]

Thanks for the replies. I am coming off of a raw vegan low fat diet. For a year I have fed my mind with John Mcdougall, T Colin Campbell, Durianrider, Neal Barnard, Joel Fuhrman, etc.... It is very hard for me to just turn that part of my brain off about how evil fats and animal foods are. It's definitely going to take some time.

[eveheart]

It is very hard for me to just turn that part of my brain off about how evil fats and animal foods are. It's definitely going to take some time.

I came from the same brainwashing, but my conversion was instantaneous. You have said that

I am a 22 year old battling chronic fatigue syndrome, along with several other ailments. I am bedridden and my health is in absolute shambles....

I'll ask you this: "How much worse are you willing to let your health decline?" I'd say that bedridden and shambles is far enough!

Are you familiar with the origin of veganism in the Western world? It started as vegetarianism a  mere 150 years ago - hardly a track record considering the natural diet of humans for a bazillion years. Vegetarianism was an ideological import from colonial India, where abstention from killing animals and using animal products was practiced as a form of religious asceticism. From there it rose to veganism in the last century.

If you are a religious ascetic, then I can see your reluctance to embrace a meat-including diet. In his autobiography, Gandhi wrote of abstaining from animal products against his doctor's orders when he was very ill, which was a noble thing to do, considering his religious convictions. If you really feel that way, then you can welcome your illness as a test of your faith.

Otherwise, do a "180" and give your body what it needs to heal and abstain from anything that might be making you this sick at 22 years of age.

[Giantsbran]

I came from the same brainwashing, but my conversion was instantaneous. You have said that
I'll ask you this: "How much worse are you willing to let your health decline?" I'd say that bedridden and shambles is far enough!

Are you familiar with the origin of veganism in the Western world? It started as vegetarianism a  mere 150 years ago - hardly a track record considering the natural diet of humans for a bazillion years. Vegetarianism was an ideological import from colonial India, where abstention from killing animals and using animal products was practiced as a form of religious asceticism. From there it rose to veganism in the last century.

If you are a religious ascetic, then I can see your reluctance to embrace a meat-including diet. In his autobiography, Gandhi wrote of abstaining from animal products against his doctor's orders when he was very ill, which was a noble thing to do, considering his religious convictions. If you really feel that way, then you can welcome your illness as a test of your faith.

Otherwise, do a "180" and give your body what it needs to heal and abstain from anything that might be making you this sick at 22 years of age.

I wasnt a vegan when I got sick. I ate a high protein diet but it was full of processed food and junk. It was similar to a "If it fits your macros" bodybuilding diet. I went vegan in an attempt to heal and found that I could only function on such a low fat high carb diet for a few days. My anxiety skyrocketed, body temp dropped extremely low (and its already way too low without veganism) and my digestive issues really flared up. Could never do it longer than a week at a time.

It really seems like the vegans have science on their side though. I just read a few weeks ago from a new study put out that meat consumption was as dangerous as smoking cigarettes.... Along with that there are hundreds that I have read from various vegan books and what not and to be honest based on the paleo info I've seen thus far, the vegans have far more evidence on their side. I mean hell just compare the appearances of those on both sides... Sally Fallon, Loren Cordain, William Davis, Barry Sears, Atkins, etc... these people are all overweight, and quite franky look far from healthy. Looking on the other side of the spectrum guys like Mcdougall, Esselstyn, Barnard, Fuhrman, these guys are all lean and look fantastic for their ages.

[goodsamaritan]

Aajonus Vonderplanitz healed people with diet... he wrote about it.

I heal people with diet + other things.  My proof is experience hands on.

Raw paleo diet is absolutely effective in healing people.  You just have to know how to use it.

[eveheart]

I went vegan in an attempt to heal and found that I could only function on such a low fat high carb diet for a few days. My anxiety skyrocketed, body temp dropped extremely low (and its already way too low without veganism) and my digestive issues really flared up. Could never do it longer than a week at a time.

Personally, my similar experience was enough evidence for me to swear off veganism.

It really seems like the vegans have science on their side though. I just read a few weeks ago from a new study put out that meat consumption was as dangerous as smoking cigarettes.... Along with that there are hundreds that I have read from various vegan books and what not and to be honest based on the paleo info I've seen thus far, the vegans have far more evidence on their side. I mean hell just compare the appearances of those on both sides... Sally Fallon, Loren Cordain, William Davis, Barry Sears, Atkins, etc... these people are all overweight, and quite franky look far from healthy. Looking on the other side of the spectrum guys like Mcdougall, Esselstyn, Barnard, Fuhrman, these guys are all lean and look fantastic for their ages.

Suppose all the vegans are correct. Veganism still doesn't work for you. Everybody is going to feature their own evidence - even the tobacco companies can provide studies of the salubrious effects of tobacco - but I'm not going to be swayed by a short-term experiment that doesn't work for me and wasn't a diet option for most of mankind until 150 years ago.

Why not try RPD for six weeks? Six weeks won't harm you. It took me three days on RPD to go from bedridden to up-and-about, and I didn't need to read a book to improve my health. All I did is start eating the way a caveman would have eaten. My only learning curve was how to buy and store raw meat and seafood.

[TylerDurden]

It really seems like the vegans have science on their side though. I just read a few weeks ago from a new study put out that meat consumption was as dangerous as smoking cigarettes.... Along with that there are hundreds that I have read from various vegan books and what not and to be honest based on the paleo info I've seen thus far, the vegans have far more evidence on their side. I mean hell just compare the appearances of those on both sides... Sally Fallon, Loren Cordain, William Davis, Barry Sears, Atkins, etc... these people are all overweight, and quite franky look far from healthy. Looking on the other side of the spectrum guys like Mcdougall, Esselstyn, Barnard, Fuhrman, these guys are all lean and look fantastic for their ages.

  This is all rubbish. I recall photos of Loren Cordain, for example, and he was in no way overweight and looks way handsome and glowing in health. Plus, others have pointed out how many vegan gurus look much much older than their chronological age. Admittedly, though, I disregard all such reports and just prefer to rely mainly on  my own dire experiences on raw vegan and fruitarian diets - after all photos of gurus will always have extra lighting and will always be edited to make the guru look way better than he really is, so photos are deceptive.

As regards the anti-meat studies, that, again, is incorrect. ALL those studies focus on the ill-health caused by COOKED meats as raw animal foods are routinely excluded in such reports. Also, some of those  studies routinely point out that the less one processes the animal foods and the less one cooks them, the less unhealthy the patients will be, all of which has been already  stated by pro-raw-animal-food -advocates for many years.

[edmon171]

The fats and animal foods being bad for you issue comes down to basically this:

Yes, they can be bad for you if they are cooked.

If they are grain fed, they are not optimal.

They can also contribute to weight gain if you are not in ketosis and prone to gaining weight.

So if you are on a high carb diet, the fat becomes bad for you in that situation and you should stay low fat if you must have carbs.

if you are on a low carb diet that is low enough to be ketogenic, animal fats are the healthiest possible thing to eat, especially raw, and you can eat them in unlimited amounts, if you were so inclined, and would find it very difficult to gain any weight unless you were having enormous amounts of protein as well.