Starting out with budget...

[riy freeman]

Hi guys,
I'm a 25y male from PA, USA. I'm new to the forum but I've spend several hours reading the forum for several days and started omnivorous raw paleo last week. Like many people on the forum I arrived on the Vegetarian/Vegan/RawVegan/80/10/10 train which was a disaster...

Anyway to get to the point, I was wondering if I can ask a couple of questions? This past week I have been eating about a pound of grass-fed ground beef with 4 spoonfuls of ghee mixed in... is this okay as a staple in my diet?

I have a budget of around 45-50 dollars per week and my local wegman's foodstore sells grass-fed beef for $5 a pound. Chuck is $6 a pound. I believe grain-fed but "organic" chuck at my local supermarket is $4 a pound. I don't eat grain-fed GROUND beef. Egg yolks do not fill me up at all and I don't eat raw chicken thus far due to the water contamination... I eat a small portion of beef liver every other day.

So I have 2 issues...

1. Given the info above, how can I construct a diet that is within or close to my weekly budget? of $45-50
So far I've been thinking:
Each day consume 1 lb of grassfed ground beef = 7 x $5 = $35
Eat a additional half a pound of grain-fed organic chuck = 7 x .5 pound x $4 = $14
Total for meat only: $49
Beef liver I only buy occasionally in a pack so negligible.

Is this calorie range appropriate for a moderately active 5'5 125lber?

2. BUT, I have a need for making sure I have all the nutrients (vitamins and minerals, choline, etc) I need so in addition to the above my breakfast is a "green juice" consisting of cabbage, spinach, or kale, and I eat 1 or 2 pieces of fruit (apple or pear). And at night if I get hungry I will steam broccoli lightly and eat it. The cost for said  amount of vegetables and fruits per week is about $13. Should I keep these non-meat items on my menu? Should I nix the fruit to buy more ground beef? Should I not eat ground beef some days and eat the grainfed chuck instead (which would lower some cost)? Should I add seafood? Should I ditch grain-fed all-together and buy grassfed only and also go no carb?

Thanks in advance for any help you guys can offer.

Ray

[TylerDurden]

it is really better, healthwise, to buy nonorganic grassfed meats than organic, grainfed meats. Many so-called nonorganic grassfed meats come from farmers who raise their animals mostly or wholly organically, but cannot afford to officially convert to organic status due to onerous regulations and costly inspectors etc.

Re fruits:- On a limited budget it is a bad idea to overindulge on raw fruits. On the other hand, cutrting out all raw plant foods may cause problems as some people do not do well on 100 percent animal foods diet. You would have to experiment with raw zero carb(all animal foods) diet to see if that works for you, of course.

I am surprised that you can afford a juicer for veggie-juice(even the cheapest ones are rather expensive, IMO) but cannot afford to spend more on your raw animal foods.

I suppose a pound of raw meat a day is fine. I usually have twice that per day, not counting occasional whole-day fasts. But 1 pound a day is fine, I should think, if on a limited budget.

Oh, and you might consider getting rid of the ghee and seeing if you do better without, and also try buying some raw grassfed organ-meats like raw kidney, raw tongue etc., if you can.

[riy freeman]

Hi TylerDurden! Thanks for your response!

it is really better, healthwise, to buy nonorganic grassfed meats than organic, grainfed meats. Many so-called nonorganic grassfed meats come from farmers who raise their animals mostly or wholly organically, but cannot afford to officially convert to organic status due to onerous regulations and costly inspectors etc.

Unfortunately I only have access to organic grainfed chuck OR grassfed and organic chuck/ground beef.


Re fruits:- On a limited budget it is a bad idea to overindulge on raw fruits. On the other hand, cutrting out all raw plant foods may cause problems as some people do not do well on 100 percent animal foods diet. You would have to experiment with raw zero carb(all animal foods) diet to see if that works for you, of course.

Is having 2 apples or pears in the morning considered overindulging in fruit?


I am surprised that you can afford a juicer for veggie-juice(even the cheapest ones are rather expensive, IMO) but cannot afford to spend more on your raw animal foods.

I don't own a juicer, I have a blender which I use to chop up the veges and then strain with a sieve.


Oh, and you might consider getting rid of the ghee and seeing if you do better without, and also try buying some raw grassfed organ-meats like raw kidney, raw tongue etc., if you can.

The reason I use ghee is because I know 1 pound of ground beef (93% lean is only kind I can get) per day is not going to be enough for me calorically or micronutrient-wise.  I also read that I need a good amount of fat intake withe the protein consumption for digestion. And, also unfortunately only have access to non-organic grain-fed beef liver or chicken liver as far as organ meats go...

[TylerDurden]

No, 1 or 2 fruits is not overindulging on fruit, I just was saying that if you did increase your fruit-intake in the future, that it would also lead to an increase in appetite and therefore a higher amount of food eaten per day, most likely.

I never found it necessary to worry about fat-issues as long as I was eating fruit regularly. It is only really an issue, IMO, if one is eating raw zero-carb with no plant foods at all. If you have no dairy-allergies and you are still improving despite the ghee-intake, I suppose it's fine for now. But, if you can, you should get rid of it, if you don't find you benefit from it.

[bharminder]

Ghee is a heated fat and worse than pasteurized butter. I would not eat it, especially if you are into raw foods.


Some tips:
kiwis have an extremely high amount of vitamin c, and are inexpensive compared to many fruits. 1 kiwi has as much vitamin c as 2-3 oranges.


Shop around for better prices.


Ditch the grain fed meats.


Consider 1 -day fasts(or semi-fasts) every now and then. (Once a week max)


Eat some high calorie cooked foods like rice or unbleached, unenriched bread.


Eat bananas(cheap, 100 calories per banana)


Raw Seafood is generally more expensive than raw beef.

[kurite]

I agree with everything bharminder said except for eating the high calorie cooked foods. But like TD said you can always buy fatty organ meats like tongue. Its high in claories and really cheap.

[Hannibal]

kiwis have an extremely high amount of vitamin c, and are inexpensive compared to many fruits. 1 kiwi has as much vitamin c as 2-3 oranges.

Not extremely high - it's overestimation
93 mg of vitamin C per 100 g
They pale in comparison with blackcurrants (183 mg) and definitely with wild rose canina fruits (2000 mg).
But kiwi fruits would be probably easier to buy and cheaper.

[djr_81]

Buy the grassfed chuck and eat a bit less meat each day. The chuck should have a higher fat content so while getting less volume you should be getting more calories.
I'd keep the fruits and veggies as well if you do well with them. They do have a tendency to cause cravings for more like TD mentioned but everything is best in moderation. While I personally eat "ZC" I feel VLC/LC should be best for most unless someone has real problems with carbohydrates.

You will feel hungry in the beginning unless your body is used to burning fat for energy. This will make you want to eat more. Be aware that you might end up spending more than the $45-$50 a week to feel sated for the beginning of your transition. Eventually your appetite will reduce.

FWIW at this point in time, close tp 18 months in, I eat ~1 1/2 pounds of very lean grassfed meat with some additional suet and do just fine. The days that I eat brisket as opposed to ground meat I eat about 2 pounds of meat and no extra fat. I'm supplying energy for a 6'-3" 184 pound body and I'm fairly active to highly active.

[bharminder]

Not extremely high - it's overestimation
93 mg of vitamin C per 100 g
They pale in comparison with blackcurrants (183 mg) and definitely with wild rose canina fruits (2000 mg).
But kiwi fruits would be probably easier to buy and cheaper.

Ah, I was wrong.

[riy freeman]

Thanks for your input guys.

So far, I haven't increased my fruit intake.

I took up your advice in kiwis for Vitamin C and I eat maybe 2 of them in the morning which brings me close to 140% DV. The kiwis were a good find since they are $.25 a piece at my supermarket.

As far as ditching the grainfed meats... it turns out that my supermarket was having a sale the day I last bought my organic grainfed so the normal price is HIGHER than my organix grassfed beef that I get, which boggles my mind. Needless to say, I will only buy grassfed under these circumstances.

I guess I can cut back on the veges a bit to buy more meat instead. Should I add bananas into my diet if I---> once had some metabolic issues and then went on the 80/10/10 eating LOTS of bananas and feeling good overall but had to eat CONSTANTLY? I'm not sure whether to toss in banana to bulk my calories if so many people are suggesting I get close to zero carb...

Raw seafood I think I will buy if I can afford to spurge a little some weeks. I think DHA and EPA are essential for health and our brains. My brain is my trade! (I'm a premed undergrad! )

I guess I can also incorporate some day fasts during the week at some points. I've waster fasted for 13 days before and it was hard but I think it was worth it. The problem is that fasts make me very weak and lethargic. I'm studying my butt off right now for my classes and MCATS and so I can't afford any down time...

At this point the only organ meats I have found in my area are grainfed chicken and calf liver. I've been eating the calf liver in small chunks sort of like a supplement ever other day. So far I haven't seen a source of suet (and if I eventually find it I think it might be grainfed only...) or cow tongue. Also interestingly, I read a wiki source that cited that cow tongues have a high chance of containing the prions which cause Mad Cow Disease... which I think is a legit point when referencing American grainfed beef.

In conclusion, thanks again all for your input so far. It looks like as of now my daily menu is 1 lbs of the organic grassfed ground beef plus 1/2 pound more groundbeef or 1/2 pound grassfed chuck steak. Mixed with ghee for now for the calories(?) Also 1-2 kiwis in the morning and a small amount of green juice.

Do you think this diet covers my nutrient base? Do I need a source of calcium or Vitamin E? Should I look for fish markets to eat fish organs? Should I eat bone marrow (how do you eat bone marrow)?

Thanks for your support,
Ray

[Iguana]

Should I eat bone marrow (how do you eat bone marrow)?

Hi Ray, welcome. Yes, you can eat marrow if you like it (with the mouth!). Seriously, you can break the bones with a hammer to reach the marrow. I think you'll find the answers to all your questions here: http://www.reocities.com/HotSprings/7627/ggindex.html

Cheers
Francois

PS : I don't know who has translated that book but I just notice at least one inconsistency:

vegetables ans sprouted cereals,

There might be several others differences with the original French text.

[djr_81]

Do you think this diet covers my nutrient base? Do I need a source of calcium or Vitamin E? Should I look for fish markets to eat fish organs? Should I eat bone marrow (how do you eat bone marrow)?

I think you should be fine. Definitely keep your eyes open for another source of grassfed fat but you should be OK in the short-term with the ghee.
You shouldn't need to worry about calcium. I'm not sure how much E you get with what you eat but I eat purely carnivorous and haven't noted any issues so you should be fine.
I definitely recommend sourcing some good seafood. Whether it's an occasional treat or a supplement of sorts it's nice variety.
I definitely advocate some marrow if you can source grassfed. I just scrape/push out the marrow with a butter knife.

Good luck Ray. Let us know how you do.

[bharminder]

Spinach is high in calcium and Vit. E.


I still think the ghee, which is high heated, is oxidized and prone to rancidity and can cause free radical buildup in the body.

[dsohei]

with a limited budget, do your best to save up a buffer of money. do any odd jobs you can to save up a few thousand dollars that you won't spend. from there you can easily buy in bulk mail-order meats, any kind you want, and with shipping the most you will pay is 6 dollars a pound and wont have to compromise.
you can buy a cheaper meat grinder and grind the meat yourself as well.
bulk seaweed is very healthy for minerals. bulk coconut oil as well.
if you want to do veggies or fruits just buy some sea salt and ferment them!
switch the ghee for egg yolks from real eggs from the farmers market.

[TylerDurden]

I find (grassfed) bone-marrow to taste great and to be very nutritious(it's a hell of a lot healthier than that ghastly ghee!).The catch is that most people only buy it for their dogs so you have to specify to the sellers that you want only marrow-rich bones.

  Caclium is irrelevant on a rawpalaeodiet. Studies have shown that even Bantu women on low-calcium diets had much healthier skeletons/bones than Western women. The vitamin E issue will not be  a problem as long as you occasionally eat some raw grassfed organs such as raw liver etc.

I actually find bananas to be very filling and stop me from overeating too much, unlike many other carbs. I don't personally see them as a problem.

[riy freeman]

Thanks Iguana for that info link. I already read a lot of it already. Doesn't seem to delve into calories or eating specifics as pertaining to Paleo, tho. Basically most of it is justification for eating raw paleo but doesn't say things like "eat this this and this".

So okay, I will supplement from time to time with raw seafood (fish) if I can. Basically sashimi I guess

I'll stop worrying about the calcium and Vit. E.

TD, I will look for grassfed beef cheaper from meat markets in my area but I'm crossing my fingers. If I happen to find one I'm going to ask if they have bone marrow as well. From physiology, I know flat bones contain red marrow (makes blood cells and is active) and long bones (like legs) contain yellow marrow (fat and non-active. Which kind are you suggesting I should eat?

Also TD, I'm curious as to why your opinion of ghee is so bad?
I've read some positive studies on their effects including:

Effect of dietary ghee—the anhydrous milk fat, on blood and liver lipids in rats .

The Journal of Nutritional Biochemistry , Volume 10 , Issue 2 , Pages 96 - 104
Abstract
Dairy products are important sources of dietary fat in India. Anhydrous milk fat, viz., ghee, is consumed as such in the diet and also is used for frying the dishes. Ghee contains high levels of saturated fatty acids and cholesterol, which are considered risk factors for cardiovascular diseases. In the present study, ghee, at levels ranging from 0.25 to 10%, was included in a nutritionally balanced AIN-76 diet fed to Wistar rats for a period of 8 weeks. The serum lipid profiles of these animals showed a dose dependent decrease in total cholesterol, low density lipoproteins and very low density lipoproteins cholesterol, and triglyceride levels when ghee was present at levels greater than 2.5% in the diet. Liver cholesterol and triglycerides also were decreased in these animals. When ghee was included as a sole source of fat at a 10% level, polyunsaturated fatty acids in the serum and liver lipids were reduced significantly. Similar results were observed when ghee was subjected to a higher temperature (120°C) to generate cholesterol oxidation products and fed to the animals. Although cholesterol oxidation products were not accumulated in serum, significant amounts were accumulated in liver only when ghee was fed as a sole source of fat at a 10% level. This study revealed that the consumption of ghee up to a 10% level in the diet altered blood lipid profiles in such a manner as not to elevate the risk factors for cardiovascular diseases.


And dsohei, is it okay if the farmers market eggs are still grain-fed? I think even those farmers chickens are grainfed.

And finally would someone please direct me to the right book or web resource where I can read up on the "saturated fat and cholesterol is bad" theory that modern nutrition promotes? Is my understanding correct in that generally saturated fats are good but only if in its raw form?

Thanks,
Ray

[TylerDurden]

Thanks Iguana for that info link. I already read a lot of it already. Doesn't seem to delve into calories or eating specifics as pertaining to Paleo, tho. Basically most of it is justification for eating raw paleo but doesn't say things like "eat this this and this".

So okay, I will supplement from time to time with raw seafood (fish) if I can. Basically sashimi I guess

I'll stop worrying about the calcium and Vit. E.

TD, I will look for grassfed beef cheaper from meat markets in my area but I'm crossing my fingers. If I happen to find one I'm going to ask if they have bone marrow as well. From physiology, I know flat bones contain red marrow (makes blood cells and is active) and long bones (like legs) contain yellow marrow (fat and non-active. Which kind are you suggesting I should eat?

Also TD, I'm curious as to why your opinion of ghee is so bad?
And dsohei, is it okay if the farmers market eggs are still grain-fed? I think even those farmers chickens are grainfed.

And finally would someone please direct me to the right book or web resource where I can read up on the "saturated fat and cholesterol is bad" theory that modern nutrition promotes? Is my understanding correct in that generally saturated fats are good but only if in its raw form?

Thanks,
Ray

AFAIK,I can only get marrow from leg-bones.

As for ghee, first of all, it contains heat-created toxins derived from cooking/heating. Secondly, one common claim is that ghee contains no lactose or casein in it - this claim, however, is completely false as ghee still contains trace amounts of those in it which can cause problems for RVAFers who are particularly sensitive to lactose/casein. Given that many people turn to RVAF diets because they have problems re immune-systems/increased rate of allergies etc. due to ill-health, ghee ought to be avoided.As for that 1 study, it is meaningless. What matters is the sheer number of studies damning heat-created toxins in cooked foods. 1 lone study  can always be faulty or wrongly focused(in this case the experiment was done on rats not humans, for example). I will grant that ghee is "less worse" than pasteurised dairy because of the stuff removed by the process of making ghee, but that's all.

Re grainfed eggs:- from what I have heard, farmers have to feed their chickens on grains in order to get them to lay eggs all year round. The best one can expect is eggs from pasture-fed chickens who are only fed on some grains, but also on earthworms etc.

As for the saturated fat issue, the studies done on saturated fat appear to be correct in terms of stating that foods high in (cooked) saturated fats are harmful, but it seems they wrongly focused on the fat aspect and didn't acknowledge that it was the heat-created toxins in those saturated fats that was the real problem, so raw saturated fat is fine:-
"The formation of exogenous (outside the body) advanced glycation endproducts (AGEs) and oxidation products generated during cooking may be a confounding factor that some studies may not have controlled for. It has been suggested that, "given the prominence of this type of food in the human diet, the deleterious effects of high-(saturated)fat foods may be in part due to the high content in glycotoxins, above and beyond those due to oxidized fatty acid derivatives." The glycotoxins, as he called them, are more commonly called AGEs.[32]"

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC21074/?tool=pmcentrez

[Hannibal]

Spinach is high in calcium and Vit. E.dy.

100 mg of calcium in 100 g of spinach.
But how much would he eat the spinach? From my experience - not very much.
Besides it has got lots of oxalates (that are antinutrients)

[dsohei]

when you talk to the egg farmers/sellers, ask what the chickens eat. it should include insects and weeds and herbs, as the chickens roam freely outside. yes, some will be fed flax and other seeds like alfalfa, and this is not so bad. it gets bad when they are fed (gmo non-organic) corn and wheat. smart farmers who love their jobs will feed the chickens as natural a diet as possible, and some dont even feed them, just let them forage for food on their own outside - this is the best and most natural way.
and yes, because of this, chickens will lay less eggs in winter.

remember that healing takes time and happens in stages, often confusing to our "rational" minds. nature is circuitous, not linear.
real top quality fat and protein will help the most, though this is general info and individually you may need some additional support. whether thats fermented seaweed, or whatever, is up to you to find out.

[riy freeman]

Ok so I'm the learning curve is hitting me right now.

I'm consuming 1.5 lbs of grassfed ground beef per day but I've been adding roughly 10 spoonfuls of ghee to it because I'm paranoid I won't get enough calories and I need fat for proper digestion of the meat. I know TD is probably shaking his head right now about the ghee but...

I ordered 5lbs of beef back fat (they were out of bison) from Northernbison and it cost me $48! Yikes! But I will order from slankers which is cheaper slightly next time I think. Only, they have a minimum order of 15 pounds and I don't know if I can fit 15 lbs of foot into my freezer with the rest of my family's stuff in there as well. (I live at home to commute to college). I hope the back fat tastes as good as bison back fat that so many people love on this forum.

I plan to eat the back fat with the ground beef to replace the ghee I've been consuming. How much back fat should I eat with the ground beef do you think?

Also, today I ate 2 kiwis and 2 pears and I was fine. An hour later I went to lift at the gym, and afterward I ate 2 more pears (to replace my glycogen). Then after another hour I was dead tired. After a lunch of half pound ground beef+spoonful of ghee I felt fine initially and then was even more exhausted after another hour. I don't understand whats going on. Is this a sign that I should eat less fruit? Consume less fat? Or take out the ghee but still consume a good amount of raw fat?

[dsohei]

 get your own small freezer off of craigslist or something

[bharminder]

There are many variables as to why energy levels aren't at your desired state. It might not be diet - related. But, in regards to diet, you could switch up when you eat what. Consider eating the meat before the workout, and the fruit afterwards. I find meat to be much longer energy providing than starches or fruits, but not vegetables, necessarily.