Dairy Dangers

[wodgina]

It seems that high palates are a feature of all these syndromes.

[TruthHunter]

 Compared to pasteurized  homogenized dairy, raw natural dairy is so much of an improvement,  I suspect  it should be encouraged.  Think for a minute at how bad most food is. Any easy improvement is a step in the right direction.  If the dairy industry maintained their cows  in a condition that raw milk could be safe, everyone would be healthier. Goats milk is much better for humans than  cow's milk.

Perhaps it should be sold in silver plated recyclable containers to please germ phobic  regulators. 
 
    If you don't digest milk well, you probably aren't adapted to it and should avoid it.  If it doesn't agree with you don't eat it.

Personally, I've never had a chance to try raw milk. When we had goats in my childhood, my mother insisted on pasteurizing it.  I am certainly allergic to normal cow's milk

John

[rawrock2]

Personally, my big thing is if it is natural or not.  I simply look at mother nature.  Humans are the only animal that consumes the milk of other animals.  (to my knowledge)  No other animal does that naturally.  Therefore I think we should be drinking only our own milk.  I was thinking, you know, what if we drank human milk like we drink cow's milk.  Filling up gallon jugs and putting it in the refrigerator for daily consumption as long as it stays fresh.  I mean it's possible, the mammary glands in a woman can continue to produce milk as long as they are stimulated.  (per an article I read about a lady breastfeeding her son for eight years)  Maybe this is what we should be focusing on. 

[boxcarguy07]

I saw a video on Youtube about a mother who still breast-feeds her two daughters even though they're pretty old (I forget the exact ages)
They children looked very healthy and seemed very intelligent.

Ah, found the video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B68bt4v4xPg

[Squall]

I doubt that video will be on You Tube much longer. I'm sure someone with fragile sensibilities will complain to the admins that they were offended by the woman's nipple or something! Yank ...

Concerning Price's book, I was surprised to find that although he was quick to point out that the isolated Inuit were some of the healthiest of the tribes he studied, he seemed to go to great lengths to not point out that they were in fact eating raw. The most he said about their diet was that it included organ meats. The only entry on actual preparation concerned the smoking of wild salmon. In fact, the smoked wild salmon was a recurring feature of the chapter if I recall correctly. I thought that was odd considering that his subjects' diet was so dependent on raw food. Kinda made me feel like there was some bias there; like he didn't actually want to come out and explicitly say: 'These people are healthy, and they eat lots of raw animal fat and meat.'

I also found the Swiss and their peculiar diet of rye and dairy kind of odd. Maybe they were super-adapted to the stuff?

[Raw Kyle]

Finally, I will say that Weston Price dubiously reported that the widening of the upper arch of a "Mongoloid Idiot," aka Down's Syndrome boy of 16, changed his physical state (understandable) and:

"His mental change was even more marked. The space between the maxillary bones was widened about one-half inch in about thirty days. This lateral pressure on the maxillary bones was accomplished by rigid attachments to the teeth of the two sides of the upper arch. The outward movement of the maxillary bones (which form the roof of the mouth and sides of the nose) by pressure on the temporal bones produced a tension downward on the floor of the anterior part of the brain, thus stimulating the pituitary gland in the base of the brain. In a few weeks' time he passed through stages that usually take several years. At first, he got behind the door to frighten us; later, he put bent pins on chairs to see us jump when we sat down, and finally he became the cause of a policeman's coming to the office from where he was conducting traffic on the corner below to find who it was squirting water on him when his back was turned. He developed a great fondness for calling people over the telephone, wanted to borrow my automobile to take his mother for a drive, and with his arm caressingly about the shoulders of one of the secretaries, invited her to go with him to a dance. All this change developed in about twelve weeks."

Gee, maybe if it wasn't a chromosomal defect, and maybe if this treatment were now in effect for people with Down's Syndrome, showing remarkable improvements, then I might be able to trust Price's work more.  But alas, he was way out of his league and exaggerated quite a bit in some areas.  His photos are great, and I am pleased he conducted the research he did before industry wiped out so many of these tribes.  But you have to consider all of this when looking at his work.

Maybe the chromosomal defect is the arch change which then causes the mental problems?

[wodgina]

Cheers for the vid boxcar.

The family seemed really happy and intelligent. It seemed natural to me really and I think she was part Aussie. Wish I was breast fed longer maybe up to like 3 would be ok with me.

I don't know where to look when women pull out their boob and start breast feeding in front of me! i've got a friend and she does it too me all the time! hehe just not used to it. Most women hide away.

[boxcarguy07]

Yeah, and what's sad is if you look on the youtube comments that people have left it's full of people saying she's crazy and that the kids need to be taken away and stuff like that. It's just awful.

I think women should be able to breastfeed wherever they damn well please! Of course, I think we should be able to walk around naked too, but that's just me. I will admit it would be pretty shocking to see a woman just start breast feeding in public... not sure I've ever seen it.

[seesawsemiology]

i do consume a fair amount of raw dairy(raw butter is amazing) but i must say if i eat/ drink too much in the course of a couple of days i get a sore throat which will disappear within 24 hours if i dont consume anymore...perhaps there is something to be said for that but i do find it makes me feel good and i otherwise process it just fine.

[TylerDurden]

i do consume a fair amount of raw dairy(raw butter is amazing) but i must say if i eat/ drink too much in the course of a couple of days i get a sore throat which will disappear within 24 hours if i dont consume anymore...perhaps there is something to be said for that but i do find it makes me feel good and i otherwise process it just fine.

It's common to experience euphoria from drinking dairy - I experienced this myself(along with a subsequent rise and drastic fall in energy-levels), and, as a result of this euphoria, I continued to drink raw dairy for months afterwards, until I finally realised that it was doing me a lot of harm. The euphoria is due to the opioids in the dairy. However, these opioids are very addictive, which is why people often find it so difficult to wean themselves off the foul stuff.

[Sully]

How much protein and fat is in human milk? Is it less protein than cows?

[seesawsemiology]

ive been told there is less fat (i guess there isnt enough fat in human milk to make cheese) i dont know about protein though...

[TylerDurden]

How much protein and fat is in human milk? Is it less protein than cows?

http://www.westonaprice.org/children/humanmilk.html

[Satya]

Does dairy cause carb cravings?  Anyone notice from giving it up?

[Raw Kyle]

I never had a problem giving up dairy. The only thing I crave is cheese and I think that's the salt.

[Satya]

I never had a problem giving up dairy. The only thing I crave is cheese and I think that's the salt.

When did you give up dairy?  Did you notice when you ate it that you would get cravings for carb foods (you know, maybe crackers to go with the cheese)?

[Raw Kyle]

I gave up dairy a few times. I didn't eat any dairy for a long time when I was mostly vegan. I never liked milk as a child. Then I started the Primal Diet and developed a bit of a taste for milk but mostly liked cream and cheese. I've given up dairy several times for more than a month at a time so I think that would be enough to say the addictions would have shown up at that point.

I'm not sure I can say that dairy made me crave carbs. Going off of my diet at all tends to be a slippery slope so I can't really chart what leads to what very well.

[aariel]

The problem with trying to figure out dairy is that most of the "science" is pretty useless.
There are so many problems...

Fresh milk is so different than cultured milk. So most studies of fresh milk have no relevance for cultured milk products and vice verse.

Raw milk is so different from pasteurized milk that you can't make conclusions about one from studies of the other.

Studies of health outcomes from milk are really studies of health outcomes of not just milk, but genetically modified synthetic bovine growth hormone and pesticide resides, antibiotics and melamine, and the list goes on and on.

There is huge bias in the research as well. The dairy industry funds almost all the research. Most researchers aren't even asking the right questions, because of their false assumptions like:
Raw milk is inherently dangerous
There is no nutritional difference between raw and pasteurized milk
There is no difference between milk produced with or without concentrates (grain)

Milk is has a lot of carbs from the lactose but the opiates come from incomplete protein digestion or fermentation.

As for Price's work, there are parts that are either just wrong or feel weird when you read it with a modern sensibility. However, the core principles of his research are quite sound. That is, when a switch is made from traditional diets to industrial diets, health goes down. I don't think that traditional diets necessarily produced exceptional health, but no matter what level of health they did produce, went down when the diet was switch to industrial food.

Other parts which are sound are that humans need large amounts of preformed vitamin A, D3 and K2 in their diets for good health. That cavities and crowded teeth are caused by poor nutrition--a notion that is practically gone in the dental profession. The Ontario Dental Association just started laughable public service campaign claiming that cavities are a contagious disease! What' next a vaccine for cavities?

As for the accusation of cherry picking, I think that is unjust. It's not like he found groups where there was no difference in health outcomes between the traditional diet and the industrial diet groups and excluded them. Or groups that thrived without preformed vitamin A, D3 and K2 and excluded those. It was Keys who used selective perception to push the crazy anti-fat mentality that currently has a grip on our society.

[cherimoya_kid]

 The Ontario Dental Association just started laughable public service campaign claiming that cavities are a contagious disease! What' next a vaccine for cavities?

As for the accusation of cherry picking, I think that is unjust. It's not like he found groups where there was no difference in health outcomes between the traditional diet and the industrial diet groups and excluded them. Or groups that thrived without preformed vitamin A, D3 and K2 and excluded those. It was Keys who used selective perception to push the crazy anti-fat mentality that currently has a grip on our society.

Addressing each point individually--

There is a bacteria in most people's mouths that actually feeds on sugar, and produces acids that dissolve enamel.  If you have never had it passed to you by kissing, etc., then you are much less likely to experience cavities, tooth decay, etc.  However, you can still be cavity-free through good diet.  Good oral hygiene helps too, but we all know diet is very important.

I think you are right.  Dr. Price did not cherry-pick.  He is often accused of this, but here's why I think he did not:

1.  Pottenger's Cats all had similar health on similar diets.  The cats that ate a particular diet generally had the same deformations and behavior problems, or lack of them, depending.

2.  In these traditional tribes, the people all ate very,very similar diets, within a tribe.  They had to.  It's just the nature of isolation.

3.  At least some of the tribe members (the ones that Dr. Price photographed) had really wonderful teeth and bone structure.

4.  Dr. Price noted that most of these groups, except for the primitive-diet Maori and primitive-diet Peruvians, had some crooked teeth.  He is very clear and precise in noting this, down to tenths of a percent.

Given all this, I don't think it's fair to say that Price cherry-picked members of specific tribes to photograph.  Similar diets will produce similar health, after accounting for individual reactions to different foods.  I'm not saying that 1 diet fits everyone, simply that, on my ideal diet, I won't get cavities. roughly speaking.  Furthermore, my ideal diet almost certainly will include some raw animal foods, maybe a large percentage, and probably won't be more than 20 or 30% carbs, by calorie percentage. This is true for pretty much any human, with almost no exceptions.

[TylerDurden]

Raw milk is so different from pasteurized milk that you can't make conclusions about one from studies of the other.

I'm afraid the above statement is simply wrong. Raw milk contains many very harmful aspects that are also present in pasteurised milk. Examples of this include the opioids in raw and pasteurised milk(which foul up the human hormonal system), the excess calcium(which can lead to issues such as osteoporosis or magensium-deficiency, and then there's the casein and lactose issues. While some rawists have desperately claimed that lactose/casein are only an issue with pasteurised dairy, many, many rawists would beg to differ, given their own very negative experience re dairy.

As for Price's work, there are parts that are either just wrong or feel weird when you read it with a modern sensibility. However, the core principles of his research are quite sound. That is, when a switch is made from traditional diets to industrial diets, health goes down. I don't think that traditional diets necessarily produced exceptional health, but no matter what level of health they did produce, went down when the diet was switch to industrial food.

Well, the diets of many tribes that Price studied had particularly bad foods in them(such as fermented grains), yet Price tried to claim that they were healthy. Plus,I've actually read reports clearly indicating that Maori health(on ancestral diets), for example, was a hell of a lot worse than Price tried to claim. So, it's pretty clear that he cherry-picked his data and only photographed those people he felt measured up to his idealistic expectations and studiously ignored the multitude of sick, unhealthy tribespeople. Plus, he ignored certain other factors which helped tribesmen stay healthier than modern peoples:- namely, hard daily exercise and calroic restriction/forced fasting.

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[aariel]

I'm afraid the above statement is simply wrong. Raw milk contains many very harmful aspects that are also present in pasteurised milk. Examples of this include the opioids in raw and pasteurised milk(which foul up the human hormonal system), the excess calcium(which can lead to issues such as osteoporosis or magensium-deficiency, and then there's the casein and lactose issues. While some rawists have desperately claimed that lactose/casein are only an issue with pasteurised dairy, many, many rawists would beg to differ, given their own very negative experience re dairy.
.

Raw and pasteurized milk do share many common characteristics like the ones you mention. But they also have many differences like probiotic bacteria, vitamin C and multiple factors that make raw milk hostile to pathogenic bacteria. All these factors are reduced or destroyed by pasteurization.

My main point though is that the entire field of dairy studies is fraught with difficulties from bias, to asking the wrong questions, not asking the right questions, and numerous poorly designed studies that make unwarranted conclusions about superficially related topics that don't hold up under even the simplest of scrutiny.

I'm not trying to advocate consumption of dairy either, so please don't interpret my comments in this way. I'm just pointing out that most discussions of dairy are complicated by all the above problems.

I think it's pretty obvious that dairy is a novel food and that many people can't tolerate it at all or it does not serve them well. Milk sales have been falling every year for the past 20 years even though the prices have been going down--that's a pretty clear indication that something is wrong with milk (at least industrial milk).

[PaleoPhil]

I'm afraid the above statement is simply wrong. Raw milk contains many very harmful aspects that are also present in pasteurised milk. Examples of this include the opioids in raw and pasteurised milk(which foul up the human hormonal system), the excess calcium(which can lead to issues such as osteoporosis or magensium-deficiency, and then there's the casein and lactose issues. While some rawists have desperately claimed that lactose/casein are only an issue with pasteurised dairy, many, many rawists would beg to differ, given their own very negative experience re dairy.

Yes, and cows' dairy can also contain high levels of bovine whey and beta cellulin.

[instant]

I think Weston a price's main point was to show the harmful effects from refined foods..

raw dairy can be good for some, bad for others..


for me i do bettter on goat milk and even better on fermented goat milk..

Overall i may do a bit better when i eat more meat and less dairy... I think i my cheeks tend to puff up a bit from milk...


the only really good benefit i noticed from raw goat milk is i started drinking it after i was raw vegan, i gained 25lbs of muscle.

[PaleoPhil]

One of my general rules is to try to stay out of heated debates with raw dairy proponents (which I don't always succeed in following, unfortunately), so instead I'll focus more on where I agree with Instant: I can easily understand how one could gain 25lbs of muscle by adding dairy to a raw vegan diet. I also agree that dairy supplements like whey protein powders can boost muscle development in some and are popular with many body builders for that reason. I personally value overall health above pure muscle development. The same mix of proteins, amino acids and bovine anabolic steroid hormones (such as bovine IGF-1, and yes, I know there is some in meat, though apparently at much lower concentrations) in dairy products that boost the muscle development of some seem to cause health problems for me, so I avoid them. I suspect that goat's dairy products would be less of a problem for me than cow's, but there's no guarantee. Besides, I have no desire to eat them and don't believe I have a need to eat them. So, to each their own.