Undigested fat

[herboriste28]

I started the raw zero carb paleo diet 3 weeks ago and I'm having big problems...
My stools are getting really pale and now I can see a lot of small white fat tallow
particles undigested in my stools. I never had problems digesting fat before going
on this diet. I might be eating to much fat and my liver can't produce enought bile.
What do you guys think?

This his what I am eating:
Raw organic grass fed beef
Raw Organ meats like heart,tongues, and very small amount of liver
Raw marrow
Very low heat rendered suet (Tallow)
Small amount of raw wild salmon

[RawZi]

I started the raw zero carb paleo diet 3 weeks ago and I'm having big problems...
My stools are getting really pale and now I can see a lot of small white fat tallow ...

This his what I am eating:
...
Very low heat rendered suet (Tallow)
...

    Why did you choose to eat tallow over completely raw fat?  Feel better soon. 

[herboriste28]

    Why did you choose to eat tallow over completely raw fat?  Feel better soon. 

I just can't eat raw suet its hard and it has no taste!!

[djr_81]

I'd bet money that that's exactly what's going on. Give it time and your body should gradually adjust to the increased fat load.

Suet is also harder for most to eat. If you can locate raw fat as opposed to suet you might have an easier time eating it.
Properly made tallow is a good stop-gap measure as you work your way into the diet but I don't recommend it's regular consumption beyond your transitionary period.

[herboriste28]

I'd bet money that that's exactly what's going on. Give it time and your body should gradually adjust to the increased fat load.

Suet is also harder for most to eat. If you can locate raw fat as opposed to suet you might have an easier time eating it.
Properly made tallow is a good stop-gap measure as you work your way into the diet but I don't recommend it's regular consumption beyond your transitionary period.

Today I will stop eating tallow and start eating raw suet to see if that helps!
I Hope its not to dangerous for my health having undigested fat in my stools.

[Michael]

I started the raw zero carb paleo diet 3 weeks ago and I'm having big problems...
My stools are getting really pale and now I can see a lot of small white fat tallow
particles undigested in my stools. I never had problems digesting fat before going
on this diet. I might be eating to much fat and my liver can't produce enought bile.
What do you guys think?

This his what I am eating:
Raw organic grass fed beef
Raw Organ meats like heart,tongues, and very small amount of liver
Raw marrow
Very low heat rendered suet (Tallow)
Small amount of raw wild salmon

Have you been eating good quantities of fat for a good period of time herboriste28?  If not and if you're relatively new to RPD/RAF, it would be very wise to introduce these powerful foods slowly as your body must adjust.  I expect that your suspicions regarding bile are probably correct and would equally expect this to improve if you take it slow and give your body time to adjust. 

Initially, you may also find it helpful to weigh and measure out the components of your food to help calculate %calories by fat and protein etc.  This will help you experiment with finding a ratio that you can tolerate well.  Also, playing with the actual quantities would probably help.  I had similar fat digestion problems until I did this.  I suddenly realised that I was consuming far too much meat per day and that my ratios were not suitable.  Lex has done alot of experimentation in this area.  I'm now finding that 80-100g of protein (that's protein NOT meat!) and 80-85% of calories from fat is working well.  It had a significant improvement on my digestion!

The raw suet would certainly be an improvement over tallow as it will contain vast quantities of lipase enzymes to aid in it's digestion.  I can relate to your apprehension given it's bland flavour and hard texture.  As discussed by various members on another thread, it may prove useful to grind it into a powder in a food processor or finely chop with a good knife before sprinkling it on your meat meal.  I've certainly found that this aids consumption.

Your diet, otherwise, based on the foods you listed is superb in my opinion!

[TylerDurden]

I can see why the tallow is undigested. However, I have occasionally had issues with not being able to properly digest even  raw suet. It seems to depend on the source, some (presumably higher-quality sources) do not give me this problem. My suggestions i, lay off the tallow(rendered suet) completely and maybe try other kinds of raw fat such as raw tongue etc.

[PaleoPhil]

I had trouble digesting many fats early on, so I gradually transitioned from carbs to fats, instead of cold turkey. YMMV.

[djr_81]

I Hope its not to dangerous for my health having undigested fat in my stools.

Since nobody addressed this I will to settle your fears.
Fat is lubricating in the intestines so the worst it will do is give you the runs. Make sure you hydrate well as needed by the consistency of your bowel movements and you'll be fine.
Keep an eye on the quantity of undigested fat and you can gauge the progress of your gallbladder in adjusting to increased bile load. Over time things will equalize.
Also note that even after months of eating this way I still occasionally have some undigested fat in my stool. This happens when I either eat tallow (I seem to "dump" a meal with tallow from my stomach before it's fully digested) or too much suet.

[PaleoPhil]

...Also note that even after months of eating this way I still occasionally have some undigested fat in my stool. This happens when I either eat tallow (I seem to "dump" a meal with tallow from my stomach before it's fully digested) or too much suet.

Interesting, that doesn't happen to me ever, despite my early trouble with digesting fat. I seem to have adapted fairly rapidly to digesting fat, though it took longer for the ketone excretion levels to drop to low levels (about 3.5 months) than most reports I saw (except for Lex, who apparently still excretes high levels of ketones).

[Michael]

Interesting, that doesn't happen to me ever, despite my early trouble with digesting fat. I seem to have adapted fairly rapidly to digesting fat, though it took longer for the ketone excretion levels to drop to low levels (about 3.5 months) than most reports I saw (except for Lex, who apparently still excretes high levels of ketones).

How are you testing ketone levels Phil?  My partner commented on observing that my breath smelt very sweet (indicative of ketones) when I first went vlc/zc but it only lasted a matter of days.  Should I assume from this that I'm fully adapted or are you using other methods such as some kind of ketone test strips?

Also note that even after months of eating this way I still occasionally have some undigested fat in my stool. This happens when I either eat tallow (I seem to "dump" a meal with tallow from my stomach before it's fully digested) or too much suet.

Without sounding too crude djr, how are you determining undigested fat in stools?  Do you mean it's clearly visible or are you referring to floating stools?  My stools still regularly 'walk on water'    but otherwise I see no obvious sign of undigested fat.

[djr_81]

Without sounding too crude djr, how are you determining undigested fat in stools?  Do you mean it's clearly visible or are you referring to floating stools?  My stools still regularly 'walk on water'    but otherwise I see no obvious sign of undigested fat.

No fear of being crude with me Michael; I'm perfectly candid talking about bodily functions.
It's very clearly visible chunks of white fat in the stool. Very similar to how you'd see a kernel of corn or a peanut but it's fat. At the basics it looks like slightly softened suet.
As I mentioned though this only happens if I eat tallow (I've tried beef tallow since finding I had issues with the lamb tallow I made but it gave me similar problems) or excessive amounts of suet. Suet seems to be both a denser fat value (versus the extra protein in it) and take more bile to digest. I need less of it for the same energy expenditure but don't always think this way and toss in more than I need.
My stools float as well but this doesn't concern me; it's because of the high fat intake.

[PaleoPhil]

How are you testing ketone levels Phil?  My partner commented on observing that my breath smelt very sweet (indicative of ketones) when I first went vlc/zc but it only lasted a matter of days.  ...

I use ketostix from the pharmacy. But I wish I had bought the 10-test multistix after learning about the high specific gravity of Lex's urine. Luckily, increasing my water uptake to levels below Lex's has lightened my urine.

My sweet saliva, also suggestive of high levels of ketones, cleared up within several days too, but my urinary ketone levels stayed up in the midrange for about 3 to 3.5 months.

[Nicola]

Since nobody addressed this I will to settle your fears.
Fat is lubricating in the intestines so the worst it will do is give you the runs. Make sure you hydrate well as needed by the consistency of your bowel movements and you'll be fine.
(I seem to "dump" a meal with tallow from my stomach before it's fully digested) or too much suet.

I would love to know why and how just raw meat and fat gives you normal poo. I am told to eat fat and have found out that I can feel sick at night (this only happens at night) many hours after eating (swimming, riding, working). I don't know why I have this with muscle fat but not with suet. Water does not seem to make my poo any more human and I can even feel bloated.

This dumping; I don't know but flushing down water will not help.

If Lex has more fat and is drinking more water then how the hell can the end product be the same?

The following is a guy on pemmican:

http://tinyurl.com/ybbbr7o

Nicola (just not worring - raw is the way to go!!!)

[djr_81]

Nicola; no two bodies are the same. Some will handle things better, worse, or differently than others. Even with the exact same food histories, which none of us have, there would still be individual biologic deviation from the "norm".
I just listen to how I feel and don't worry about others. I've spent years, almost a decade now, dealing with many food allergies so know the intimate workings of my body well.

This dumping; I don't know but flushing down water will not help.

This "dumping" is just my stomach (and body) trying to remove something it does not want in it. Basically I partially digest it into chyme but it doesn't fully get there before it gets passed into my intestines. I don't do this with raw meat and fat.
If I drink too much water too fast I will shortly need to have a bowel movement. I find I need to limit intake to 8oz or less at a time now unless I've been doing hard physical labor in which case I can drink more before issues arrive.

Now, in your case it sounds like you do fine with suet but not with other intramuscular fat. Why worry about the other fat then? If it was me I'd just stick to the suet for now, feel great, and re-examine how I deal with other fat later in the future (6-12 months maybe).

[ys]

My stools are getting really pale

After about 2 months of consuming raw fat my poop came out this morning to be light greyish in color instead of usual dark brown. I'm not sure if it is one time occurrence yet, I'll have to keep monitor it.

Otherwise I feel no different than when it was dark brown.

[Michael]

No fear of being crude with me Michael; I'm perfectly candid talking about bodily functions.
It's very clearly visible chunks of white fat in the stool. Very similar to how you'd see a kernel of corn or a peanut but it's fat. At the basics it looks like slightly softened suet.
As I mentioned though this only happens if I eat tallow (I've tried beef tallow since finding I had issues with the lamb tallow I made but it gave me similar problems) or excessive amounts of suet. Suet seems to be both a denser fat value (versus the extra protein in it) and take more bile to digest. I need less of it for the same energy expenditure but don't always think this way and toss in more than I need.
My stools float as well but this doesn't concern me; it's because of the high fat intake.

Their seems a general consensus of readiness to discuss the issue which I suppose I should expect as many of us have had extensive experience in these matters (from a "keenness" to gain health, I might add, rather than an obsessive behaviour).  That's amazing that it's seemingly passing straight through djr.  I haven't experienced that myself with raw fat but - due to low stomach acid issues - do experience it with food in general if I don't currently supplement my meals with Betaine Hydrochloride.  I think this is related to candida and have noticed significant gain in my digestive powers since introducing this a short while ago - with the aim being to gradually reduce quantity as my body naturally begins producing.  I realise the hydrochloric acid is primarily for protein digestion but do you think low stomach acid may be an issue for you too?  Of course, another reason sufficient bile may not be released for the quantity of fats consumed may be due to the partial blocking of bile ducts by stones.  A liver flush may prove useful in that case if you believe in such things.  Of course, as you mentioned earlier it may just be your bile production needing time to adapt.

After about 2 months of consuming raw fat my poop came out this morning to be light greyish in color instead of usual dark brown. I'm not sure if it is one time occurrence yet, I'll have to keep monitor it.

This colour change may be due to a change in bacteria composition within the intestines.  I seem to recall reading somewhere that the yellow-green colour of bile is further metabolised by intestinal bacteria resulting in the "normal" brown colour.

[Michael]

Nicola (just not worring - raw is the way to go!!!)

Pleased to hear that Nicola 

I use ketostix from the pharmacy. But I wish I had bought the 10-test multistix after learning about the high specific gravity of Lex's urine. Luckily, increasing my water uptake to levels below Lex's has lightened my urine.

My sweet saliva, also suggestive of high levels of ketones, cleared up within several days too, but my urinary ketone levels stayed up in the midrange for about 3 to 3.5 months.

Thanks PaleoPhil.  I'm going to get myself some Multistix very soon so I can start keeping an eye on some of these matters.

[djr_81]

I realise the hydrochloric acid is primarily for protein digestion but do you think low stomach acid may be an issue for you too? 

Nope. I've tried Betain HCL three times over the last two months and experienced the burn after 1-2 capsules each time. I'm definitely making adequate HCL acid.
Incidentally my wife needed from 6-8 capsules each time to feel the burn. Still trying to gently remind her of this fact when she gets indigestion but I'm trying to not push too hard as it's her body.

Of course, another reason sufficient bile may not be released for the quantity of fats consumed may be due to the partial blocking of bile ducts by stones.  A liver flush may prove useful in that case if you believe in such things.  Of course, as you mentioned earlier it may just be your bile production needing time to adapt.

I'm not 100% convinced someone could take something in one or two doses that would flush out decades of accumulated crud but I'd be willing to give it a shot if I can find something that won't upset my stomach.

[Michael]

Nope. I've tried Betain HCL three times over the last two months and experienced the burn after 1-2 capsules each time. I'm definitely making adequate HCL acid.
Incidentally my wife needed from 6-8 capsules each time to feel the burn. Still trying to gently remind her of this fact when she gets indigestion but I'm trying to not push too hard as it's her body.
I'm not 100% convinced someone could take something in one or two doses that would flush out decades of accumulated crud but I'd be willing to give it a shot if I can find something that won't upset my stomach.

That sounds like evidence enough that your HCl levels are strong djr.  Glad to hear it!

It sounds as though your wife would greatly benefit though.  If it helps, I'd be happy for you to tell her of my own experiences.  I still wasn't getting a burn upon taking TEN high strength HCl tablets originally and have been now taking 10 with all meals for the last 6 months or more (I couldn't afford anymore than this!).  I'm now down to taking 6-8 with meals and, as part of my vlc/zc regime and to save money, I'm now only eating one meal a day.  My digestion has been observed as hugely improved!  I no longer suffer with terrible gas/reflux (a lifelong problem!) and no longer have undigested food in stools.  My strength and general improvement in all areas is very likely as much to do with my improved digestion (thanks to HCl) as it is to my diet.  Of course, you're right that it's your wife's body but please relay my positive experiences to her.

[redfulcrum]

Maybe you're just eating too much fat?  I would monitor your weight.  If you're dropping lbs. than you're not absorbing it.  If your weight is fine, than maybe your just eating too much of it. 

Have you ever experienced fat hunger?  That was the worse time of my life, I felt like I was on stimulants and my mind was just racing.  It only happens when you're sub 5% body fat levels.  That's when i found out about rabbit starvation. 

[spear of destiny]

anyone in this thread got their appendix removed?