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Offline akaikumo

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A few questions from a beginner
« on: July 10, 2008, 08:55:54 pm »
I'm finally starting on the diet; I've been thinking about it for a while now. I'm going to start by going off of grains, dairy, and legumes. I'll work on the raw part later (I tried raw eggs and a slice of beef and nearly tossed my salad at the taste. No cold turkey for me [pun not intended]).

I'm aiming for a diet of mostly meat, with limited carbs from vegetables and fruit, but I don't really know where to start.

I know fats are important, but, other than the fat laced within meat, I'm not sure how to go about getting it (suet is mentioned a lot). I won't be doing any online ordering; it'll all be through Whole Foods and local grocery, with the occasional farmers market. Also, I'll be cooking it, so is excess fat a bad thing? I'm not sure what kind of effect heat has on it. Does anyone know?

My understanding is that mixing up the kind of meat eaten is ideal--not eating just beef or fowl. I love raw fish (I always thought it was wrong to cook it), so I'll definitely be making that a staple. Low-mercury, ideally.

And what kind of ratio of organ meats to muscle meats should I go for? I think I can down heart; maybe liver if it's mixed with something--anything else I'm not sure I can eat at this point.
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Offline TylerDurden

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Re: A few questions from a beginner
« Reply #1 on: July 10, 2008, 09:38:22 pm »
I'm finally starting on the diet; I've been thinking about it for a while now. I'm going to start by going off of grains, dairy, and legumes. I'll work on the raw part later (I tried raw eggs and a slice of beef and nearly tossed my salad at the taste. No cold turkey for me [pun not intended]).

I'm aiming for a diet of mostly meat, with limited carbs from vegetables and fruit, but I don't really know where to start.

I know fats are important, but, other than the fat laced within meat, I'm not sure how to go about getting it (suet is mentioned a lot). I won't be doing any online ordering; it'll all be through Whole Foods and local grocery, with the occasional farmers market. Also, I'll be cooking it, so is excess fat a bad thing? I'm not sure what kind of effect heat has on it. Does anyone know?

My understanding is that mixing up the kind of meat eaten is ideal--not eating just beef or fowl. I love raw fish (I always thought it was wrong to cook it), so I'll definitely be making that a staple. Low-mercury, ideally.

And what kind of ratio of organ meats to muscle meats should I go for? I think I can down heart; maybe liver if it's mixed with something--anything else I'm not sure I can eat at this point.

Some people find it best to just ease into the diet slowly - getting rid of dairy, grains and legumes is a very good start. In this regard, I have a few further  standard suggestions:-

First of all, try any raw foods that you already like(that should be mostly raw fruit and one or two raw veg like raw carrots). This may mean eating lots of raw carbs at first, but that doesn't matter at this stage.

Re online order:- Online ordering, especially in bulk, is, IMO, really important re doing this diet. Unless you are lucky enough to have a good local farmers' market selling organic, grassfed meat, the former option is the best as it'll save you considerable time otherwise spent on shopping, and if the food is bought in  bulk then the  delivery-costs aren't so onerous. I've heard that farmers' markets in the US are usually nowhere near as good as those found in Europe, but it's always worth checking.

*I should mention that I've only been once to the only WholeFoods store in the UK, and I found it horrendously expensive, with very little if any organic/grassfed meat sold, and what nonorganic meat was sold there was far too expensive, given its low-quality. In short, supermarkets are a ripoff. If you buy direct from farms, they get a much better price than they would get from supermarkets, and you get a much cheaper price as the farmer in this case, unlike the supermarkets, doesn't have to add extra retail-costs for the food.*

Plus, with farmers, unlike with the supermarket, you can usually ask them NOT to cut the fat off before sale, whereas supermarkets usually do that automatically before putting the meat on the shelves.

Cooked animal  fat is generally viewed as the worst food to eat, with raw animal fat, excluding from dairy/eggs, the best food to eat.

There's plenty of Info on the rawpaleodiet yahoo groups Links page, where there are dozens of different scientific articles listed showing the harmful effects of eating cooked-food.You can also Google any studies  for AGEs in cooked foods (short for Advanced Glycation Endproducts), NSAs(Nitrosamines which are found in preserved and smoked meats), and HCAs(HeteroCyclic Amines)  and PAHs(PolyCyclic Aromatic BHydrocarbons(found in grilled meats and various polluted environments), and you should find several 100 re these issues. The general concensus re all these is that the more you cook the meats the worse the effect on health.

The usual standard suggestion is to start off by cooking your meats as you like them, using as many sauces as you like, and then gradually over days/weeks/months, reducing the average cooking-temperature and the amounts of sauces(or replacing processed sauces with raw sauces) until you can eventually eat meats raw at room-temperature with no extra sauces added.

It's always a good idea to include variety. The big problem with some rawists is that they include so little variety - this is usually because they don't try to get used to  the foods(eg:- raw meats/organ-meats) that they initially dislike , and go in for huge amounts of  "easier" raw foods such as raw dairy or raw fruit, thus causing inevitable side-effects.

re mercury:- The whole mercury issue is nonsense. Here's a website which debunks the mercury myths plus a link to the best study to date on the subject which shows that mercury in food doesn't cause any damage:-

http://fishscam.com/

http://www.rochester.edu/pr/releases/med/mercury.htm

The only exception to the above is if you happen to live in a coastal area where there's been a recent industrial spillage of mercury (eg:- the Minamata Bay Incident) - otherwise you don't need to worry one bit re this issue.

Re organ-meats:- People usually start off with the muscle-meats(I found raw fish and especially raw shellfish the easiest to get used to), and then start including small amounts of organ-meats. Most people take longest to get used to raw liver, with raw tongue and raw heart being the easiest. Just try small amounts at first once you're used to the muscle-meats, and, over time, you will start to tolerate and then enjoy the taste of them. (It should also be obvious that the less cooked-food you eat in the same period, the easier it is to get used to the different raw foods). So don't worry re the issue of proportions as yet. Though, it's best to make sure that you get enough animal-fats in your diet(ie get hold of fattier meats or add things like raw tongue/suet etc.) When I can't get enough in the way of such fats, I use eggs as a last resort, but I don't recommend using eggs as a main source of fat in the long-term.

Another tip re getting more easily used to raw foods is to eat them in a socially-acceptable setting like a restaurant. You could eat raw fish at a local Japanese Sashimi restaurant or  steak tartare at most French, Hungarian or Russian restaurants etc. Once you get the idea that it's OK to eat raw animal food in public in certain circumstances, you'll find it much easier to get over the ridiculous subconscious social conditioning we all start that states that :"raw meat kills you" etc.!


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" Ron Paul.

xylothrill

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Re: A few questions from a beginner
« Reply #2 on: July 11, 2008, 10:43:59 pm »
Quote
Cooked animal  fat is generally viewed as the worst food to eat, with raw animal fat, excluding from dairy/eggs, the best food to eat.

I'd just like to add that saturated animal fat is the safest fat to eat cooked as it is resistant to oxidation. Heated plant oils (execpt for staturated coconut or palm oil) oxidize easily and create free radicals - flax oil being the worst.

Craig

Offline goodsamaritan

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Re: A few questions from a beginner
« Reply #3 on: July 14, 2008, 10:33:17 pm »
Try searing your meat first.
I learned that from Geoff.
Try wrapping your raw organs in salad.
Educate yourself about the healing power of raw foods.
The more you know, the more you will be convinced.
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Offline akaikumo

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Re: A few questions from a beginner
« Reply #4 on: July 19, 2008, 04:06:51 am »
Thanks for all the suggestions. I read the website on the mercury scam, and I'll be stocking up on raw fish.

I'm lucky to be getting a farmer's market store in a month that's only a few miles away, but I have a few questions about buying bulk meat/fish online since I don't know what they'll carry and when.

How many pounds of meat would make the price of shipping worth while?
Is it best to aim for places that are in-state?
Any suggestions for finding in-state, bulk delivery services?
Being land-locked, what's the best way to get fish?
And the day came when the risk to remain tight in a bud was more painful than the risk it took to blossom. - Anais Nin

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: A few questions from a beginner
« Reply #5 on: July 19, 2008, 04:33:59 am »
Thanks for all the suggestions. I read the website on the mercury scam, and I'll be stocking up on raw fish.

I'm lucky to be getting a farmer's market store in a month that's only a few miles away, but I have a few questions about buying bulk meat/fish online since I don't know what they'll carry and when.

How many pounds of meat would make the price of shipping worth while?
Is it best to aim for places that are in-state?
Any suggestions for finding in-state, bulk delivery services?
Being land-locked, what's the best way to get fish?

If you're nowhere near the coast, it's usually a good idea to keep raw seafood to a minimum as it'll usually be expensive - plus, it'll always be prefrozen. But if money's no object...

It's  a good idea to buy in bulk re price as delivery-costs are usually per shipment rather than per kilo - on the other hand buying too much means putting most of the order into the freezer compartment rather than the fridge for weeks on end - freezing over time does do some damage to the food as regards enzymes/nutrients though it's nowhere near as harmful as cooking. Prices will vary from region to region but it's common for the delivery price to go down to a half or zero the usual figure when the price is above a certain point(100 pounds or a 100 dollars etc.)

I think most people buy from their own State and any neighbouring States but there are pletny of people who order from as far away as Alaska etc. - certainly, if you don't want the food sent prefrozen you want the farm to be as close to your home as possible. NorthStar Bison is a favourite among USans as is Slanker's. Grassfed meat-source sites and organic directories can all be found in a folder at the top of the rawpaleodiet yahoo group's Links page - I'l eventually transfer the details to this website - in the meantime, ww.eatwild.com is a good website to look for grassfed farms in each State.
"During the last campaign I knew what was happening. You know, they mocked me for my foreign policy and they laughed at my monetary policy. No more. No more.
" Ron Paul.

Offline akaikumo

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Re: A few questions from a beginner
« Reply #6 on: July 19, 2008, 04:46:18 am »
I'm not worried about freezing it for now. I'm having to jump through a few hoops to get on this diet since I'm living with my parents still and not paying for groceries, so freezing everything is a small compromise.

I'll check out NorthStar, that website, and the yahoo group. Thanks.
And the day came when the risk to remain tight in a bud was more painful than the risk it took to blossom. - Anais Nin

Offline Raw Kyle

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Re: A few questions from a beginner
« Reply #7 on: July 19, 2008, 04:47:41 am »
I'm pretty sure both Slankers and Northstar Bison freeze when they ship. Slankers is great cause they have organs that I haven't found anywhere else as well as suet and good prices. The co op close to my house has been down for a while but when it comes back up I'll probably get (because I can get it fresh and local) meat and liver and any dairy and eggs I want there but continue to get suet and organs other than liver because Slankers is the only place I know that has them and the price is good.

So the best thing to do is hunt out a co op near where you live. I can be hard to find, I was driving 2+ hours there and back to a farm for a while before I came across a co op that gets the food delivered from a similar area once a week to a place that is only a 15 minute drive for me; and it had larger selection and better prices.

The way I found my co op was at a Vonderplanitz event. The diet gurus that go around seem to be able to find stuff like that way better than the average Joe.

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: A few questions from a beginner
« Reply #8 on: July 19, 2008, 04:54:20 am »
Northstar freezes unless you specifically ask them not to(in which case the meats are merely chilled). - I think they insist on freezing anyway if there's a long distance involved.
"During the last campaign I knew what was happening. You know, they mocked me for my foreign policy and they laughed at my monetary policy. No more. No more.
" Ron Paul.

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Re: A few questions from a beginner
« Reply #9 on: July 19, 2008, 04:56:43 am »
Northstar freezes unless you specifically ask them not to(in which case the meats are merely chilled). - I think they insist on freezing anyway if there's a long distance involved.

True, but in winter they might keep it fresh if you ask.

Offline akaikumo

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Re: A few questions from a beginner
« Reply #10 on: July 19, 2008, 07:57:46 am »
Slankers is excellent; I'm going to have to order from them.  ;D
And the day came when the risk to remain tight in a bud was more painful than the risk it took to blossom. - Anais Nin

Offline boxcarguy07

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Re: A few questions from a beginner
« Reply #11 on: July 19, 2008, 08:11:31 am »
Slanker's is indeed a great company with an awesomely informative website.
My one complaint is that my order from them arrived partially thawed and VERY messy/bloody. It was quite a mess getting it all into the freezer!

Satya

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Re: A few questions from a beginner
« Reply #12 on: July 19, 2008, 09:04:21 am »
I am a loyal customer of Burgundy Pasture Beef here in Texas.  They are at a super good location for grass mixtures and climate and have great prices on organs.  I don't know how well their foods ship, as I pick up at a location every month.  But I know that summer can get messy for shipping food, especially if your supplier is located in Hell Designate - aka Texas in summer!  Or if you are in a hot place receiving.

http://www.burgundypasturebeef.com

Offline akaikumo

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Re: A few questions from a beginner
« Reply #13 on: July 30, 2008, 06:49:43 am »
This is the first time I've eaten any kind of raw meat outside of a Japanese restaurant.

It's tuna; threw salt and pepper on it. Nasty shit--I don't like the consistency of tuna cooked or raw (canned is okay... I don't know why), and while this was frozen and it might've helped the texture some, I'm having a hard time getting this down.

The flavor is way stronger then when eaten cooked or canned. And the flavour won't go away either, keeps mixing with this soda (I know, soda's are horrible--working on it).

One more piece, the biggest, to get down. I ate 4 already.

Amazing how the gag reflex is so easily controlled by social programming.

And it's down. That sucked. Gonna be a while before I can do that again. God forbid with the beef... gah. :P
And the day came when the risk to remain tight in a bud was more painful than the risk it took to blossom. - Anais Nin

Offline boxcarguy07

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Re: A few questions from a beginner
« Reply #14 on: July 30, 2008, 06:56:15 am »
Wow, interesting.
Raw tuna is absolutely divine for me. Even the very first time, I find it to be absolutely delicious.
Canned tuna has a very powerful taste and smell, but raw tuna filets are very delicate.
What kind of tuna did you get?
The kind I've always gotten is wild yellowfin tuna (dark red in color)

Offline goodsamaritan

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Re: A few questions from a beginner
« Reply #15 on: July 30, 2008, 06:59:59 am »
Raw tuna for beginners goes down well with lemon and soy sauce.
Eventually, you won't need any, nor want any condiments.

The beef that seems to taste bad are only those grain fed, not so good tasting beef.  Grass fed beef you will taste the very good difference. 

Wild game I hear tastes even better.

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Satya

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Re: A few questions from a beginner
« Reply #16 on: July 30, 2008, 07:02:18 am »
The flavor is way stronger then when eaten cooked or canned. And the flavour won't go away either, keeps mixing with this soda (I know, soda's are horrible--working on it).

That might have been some bad tuna.  You know, it wasn't the freshest piece when they put in the freezer.  I'd be very particular about where you buy fish to consume raw.  A reputable oriental market might be good for frozen fish if you cannot find a fresh source.  Buy fresh, in season whenever possible.  Better luck next time.

Offline akaikumo

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Re: A few questions from a beginner
« Reply #17 on: July 30, 2008, 03:23:26 pm »
It's yellowfin, not sure if it's wild caught or not.

I've had it as sashimi too, and was really unhappy with the texture, but the flavor was better and really mild. Not sure what the difference was; could be a different kind. Maybe I've just been unlucky.

The benefit, though, is after getting it down I felt fine. I didn't get that nasty, full/low-energy feeling I get when I eat cooked meat. That alone is worth it.

I still have another half of that tuna steak to get through too... gag. :P Maybe I'll start a journal--might motivate me more.
And the day came when the risk to remain tight in a bud was more painful than the risk it took to blossom. - Anais Nin

Offline boxcarguy07

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Re: A few questions from a beginner
« Reply #18 on: July 30, 2008, 08:04:53 pm »
Very good! Journals are fun!  ;D

xylothrill

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Re: A few questions from a beginner
« Reply #19 on: August 02, 2008, 11:29:37 am »
That might have been some bad tuna.  You know, it wasn't the freshest piece when they put in the freezer.  I'd be very particular about where you buy fish to consume raw.  A reputable oriental market might be good for frozen fish if you cannot find a fresh source.  Buy fresh, in season whenever possible.  Better luck next time.

I agree! Raw fish actually has less of a fishy taste than cooked fish. Make sure it is sushi-grade or freshly caught and immediately put on ice.  I had some seared tuna once that was pale and didn't taste quite right. There's no telling of what might have happened to it. Frozen then thawn... allowed to drip... who knows? It was certainly nothing like the one I saw, which led me to order it.


 

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