Consuming greens without a vitamix or other high tech tool?

[goodsamaritan]

I know Aajonus is not into stone age / paleo re-enactment, but I just read in the raw vegan family book of Ka Sundance that his raw vegan family needs a vitamix blender or whatever to make smoothies from vegetables.

I'm thinking that paleo people didn't have vitamixers.

Maybe this is why fermentation was invented? To consume veggies?

Would the consumption of fermented veggies be superior to vitamixed vegetables?

[Nation]

This is pretty random but I remember a korean movie i saw about 5 years ago where a sick woman from the city was brought to a buddhist monk who lived in the wild and he'd make her drink green juice he made from using rocks to get the juice out of the greens.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0374546/

[jessica]

i have always been a huge propenent of chewing!
"chew your juice and drink your food"
green/veggie juices arent beneficial unless you are in such ill health you are having trouble eating anything,
drinking juices bypasses the necessary activation of enzymes and secretions of saliva that aid in proper assimlation and digestion
fiber in plants has a lot to do with how they digest so removing those further alters this, even if you are chewing your juice you are still getting a huge amount of the nutrient but wont spend the same time it takes to actually chew and eat a bunch of kale, a cucumber etc...so you wont be producing enough enzyme to break down the nutrients and probably wont absorb it/digest it properly
theres a lot of info about how much of the nutrients come out from certain juices...they are not %100 and different types yield different quality

fermentation was invented by bacteria so that they could breakdown fruits, plants, animals....and turn them back into soil....this happens in nature all of the time we just borrowed the technique to store the food using the beneficial bacteria instead of let it sour up/dissapear...its just the bacteria has done part of the process for us so it is partially digested food

i do believe veggies, herbs and certain fruits have medicinal and nutritional qualities but i think eating them raw, fermented and with the teeth is generally the best way to extract the benefits...
its almost like you have to know how to combine, which veggies and herbs, contain certain vitamins and minerals, how to best prepare them(raw, combined with fat, meat, fermented, chopped and left for a while, mixed with something else, for certain ailments)

along the lines of what nation presented: mortar and pestles would be very easy to implement and  early paleo healers probably knew plant medicine

[RawZi]

Would the consumption of fermented veggies be superior to vitamixed vegetables?

   Maybe this is why the veggies (salad) digest better with raw apple cider vinegar (fermented plant liquid) on them and aajonus does say to make a sour salad dressing including this.

    I've tried vegie-kraut combined with this diet, and vegie-kraut with this does not seem to combine as well for me as I recall it did with vegan and raw vegan.

    Maybe it's cause when I ate vegie kraut vegan, I made it with a hand grater (not a special one) and a "two by four".  I didn't use a (modern) food processor.  The bacteria, me, a bucket and a bowl etc were the food processors.

    

[jessica]

rawzi i have noticed a difference in the bacterial quality of vegetables(specifically cabbage) that are in organic markets, most veggies that are not grown locally and make their way into larger organic markets are pretty sterile, so perhaps the lack of bacteria on the vegetables is having an effect on the quality of kraut?

[RawZi]

rawzi i have noticed a difference in the bacterial quality of vegetables(specifically cabbage) that are in organic markets, most veggies that are not grown locally and make their way into larger organic markets are pretty sterile, so perhaps the lack of bacteria on the vegetables is having an effect on the quality of kraut?

    Good point, but my experiences were with RejuvenativeFoodsTM vegie kraut and Amish sauerkraut.  I think the problem with the Amish made stuff is that they add salt to extra sterilize it.  The rf one wasn't bad, but it was discontinued on the East coast.  You have to order a five gallon bucket to your house now, instead of getting it in the hfs.  

    I don't plan on getting such a bucket for my needs, I don't need it that much.  It was just nice as an option.  It's more vital a part of diet on a diet higher in vegetables.  

    Also, I have made vegie-kraut with cabbage that was not perfect (unknown source etc).  Made right, the kraut still came out good.  I know that was taking chances, as insecticides used on cruciferous veges are supposed to be worse, but ya do what ya can.

[RawZi]

    Maybe I should add another detail.  I used to make the kraut while I was in the open air in the mountains on the edge of a rain forest.  Maybe the air surrounding helped put good bacteria in.

[William]

In the beginning God created the heavens and the Earth and the waters above and waters below and put salt in some of it so that PaleoMan could soak his cabbage salt water, thereby making sauerkraut so as to have something worth putting on his Wiener.
He put germs in the cabbage so we would not have to go looking for them.

Processing and eating greens, or any carbs is not God's will.

[miles]

This is pretty random but I remember a korean movie i saw about 5 years ago where a sick woman from the city was brought to a buddhist monk who lived in the wild and he'd make her drink green juice he made from using rocks to get the juice out of the greens.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0374546/

OMG I loved that film! "Spring, Summer, Autumn, Winter and Spring." Lol, it finished at 4am or something when I watched it >_< bleak times when the sun comes up and you've still not gone to bed. =/

[carnivore]

In the beginning God created the heavens and the Earth and the waters above and waters below and put salt in some of it so that PaleoMan could soak his cabbage salt water, thereby making sauerkraut so as to have something worth putting on his Wiener.
He put germs in the cabbage so we would not have to go looking for them.

Processing and eating greens, or any carbs is not God's will.

Amen!

[aunaturale]

Man is not intended to consume vegetables, therefore I do not practice juicing or recommend it.
What Aajonus does not mention to readers is the fact that practically all vegetables have phytotoxins..
take cabbage and the entire Brassica family, for example, they contain a substance called
goitrogen which "suppresses the function of the thyroid gland by interfering with iodine uptake"

only way to eliminate it is by cooking vegetables, a law against the raw community
slowly I am beginning to see that the most basic diet for man is meat fat and water. period!

Consume Vegetables and plants for medicinal purposes.

[jessica]

In the beginning God created the heavens and the Earth and the waters above and waters below and put salt in some of it so that PaleoMan could soak his cabbage salt water, thereby making sauerkraut so as to have something worth putting on his Wiener.
He put germs in the cabbage so we would not have to go looking for them.

Processing and eating greens, or any carbs is not God's will.

have you ever been hiking and munching wild greens as you go, stumble upon a berry patch and eat a shit ton because they are perfectly ripe and warmed by gods grace??  its a pretty natural thing if you ask me, more natural then braving a bee hive...perhaps not sustainable but paleoman was not some shithead who was too good for what delicious delights god threw in his path, paleoman didnt deny his omnivorous nature, and although meat is optimal, he evolved to be able to utilize nutrients from fruit and veg and bugs and seaweed because seasons change and so does the supply of meat and fish....unless you are paleoman@whole foods or whatever and you drive to the source in your subaru and fill up with meat endlessly and tout the fact that your diet is optimal but perhaps not  realistically as opportunistic as that of our ancestors

[goodsamaritan]

No debates against greens.
This is the Primal Diet board... greens eaten and welcome here. 

[aunaturale]

No debates against greens.
This is the Primal Diet board... greens eaten and welcome here. 

thanks for the reminder samaritan 

[William]

have you ever been hiking and munching wild greens as you go,

I've eaten wild greens when I felt like it, but never much and rarely. Think it's medicinal.

stumble upon a berry patch and eat a shit ton because they are perfectly ripe and warmed by gods grace??

Yes! Delicious, and I shat like a bear after.
Medicinal, and must leave some friendly soil-based germs in the gut.

he evolved

   Aieeee! That word again.
I have no faith in that story.

to be able to utilize nutrients from fruit and veg

That God invented fruit & veg. so we would be tempted, fall from grace AKA paleofood and end up working for a living with high blood sugar/insulin resistance & have a short life. That God was and is a meany. There are better.

and bugs and seaweed because seasons change and so does the supply of meat and fish

Bugs and seaweed are OK, moths too, but not really filling. Most of the time it would take a lot of work to gather enough bugs to feed a family.

....unless you are paleoman@whole foods or whatever and you drive to the source in your subaru

Sniff. I drive a honda.  (where is that fiendish smiley when I need it?)

 

and fill up with meat endlessly and tout the fact that your diet is optimal but perhaps not  realistically as opportunistic as that of our ancestors

Would that I could, but the farmer only has fat&meat every so many weeks, and it's a 5 hour drive.
Is that opportunistic?
Even as degenerate and dimwitted as neolithic man certainly is, this one has enough smarts to preserve some fat and meat against the time of the next opportunity, IMHO same as paleoman.
I tout not in person; only on the internet.

[jessica]

"Bugs and seaweed are OK, moths too, but not really filling. Most of the time it would take a lot of work to gather enough bugs to feed a family."-willerm

it also takes a lot of work to hunt and fish, so might as well be opportunistic and eat the things that are present in the interim...the greens, roots, fruits.....i mean think about it, your tracking a herd, on a nomadic pilgrimage to spawning grounds,etc...your going to pass through different flora....different seasons present swarms, or things to gather
not that i think grains acceptable but we thrashed through a wild field of amaranth in the fall and filled buckets with our hands and it was rather easy.....when you are paleohomie you have all the time in the world to gather

[William]

it also takes a lot of work to hunt and fish,

Not really.

 

so might as well be opportunistic and eat the things that are present in the interim...the greens, roots, fruits.....

And shit like a bear.

Greens, roots, fruits all have their place in a healing diet, and AV has proven this, but healing should not take forever. IMO, as I am not a competent herbalist.

[RawZi]

Greens, roots, fruits all have their place in a healing diet, and AV has proven this, but healing should not take forever. IMO, as I am not a competent herbalist.

    Just curious, I guess he recommends a little carrot juice to some, an occasional yam juice-coconut cream smoothie, the odd gingerroot ice cream, what other roots?

    He recommended some fruit and a good bit of green juice for me, but no roots at all.

[jessica]

he evolved

   Aieeee! That word again.
I have no faith in that story

Greens, roots, fruits all have their place in a healing diet, and AV has proven this, but healing should not take forever. IMO, as I am not a competent herbalist.

so then are we direct decedents(as opposed to acendents) of anjous vonderpoops?  just being silly but honestly i think its more important to learn more from the bear, who knows to feast on berries, regardless of the resulting quality of their fecal matter, and less from man, who is far more likely to have diarrhea of the brain and mouth

[cherimoya_kid]

   Aieeee! That word again.
I have no faith in that story

Greens, roots, fruits all have their place in a healing diet, and AV has proven this, but healing should not take forever. IMO, as I am not a competent herbalist.


so then are we direct decedents(as opposed to acendents) of anjous vonderpoops?  just being silly but honestly i think its more important to learn more from the bear, who knows to feast on berries, regardless of the resulting quality of their fecal matter, and less from man, who is far more likely to have diarrhea of the brain and mouth

Well put, I think.

[William]

   i think its more important to learn more from the bear, who knows to feast on berries, regardless of the resulting quality of their fecal matter, and less from man, who is far more likely to have diarrhea of the brain and mouth

OK with me - it's what I do every year, as bears do, for a few weeks.

If you really are serious about learning from the bear, then how about the bear's zero carbohydrate diet all winter long?
I dare you.

[jessica]

the winter bear diet would totally suck one would have to drink their own urine and develop an involuntary muscle twitch, perhaps only while sleeping or otherwise sedentary, to avoid muscle wasting

if you want to call me a carbohydrate addict that is fine with me, and my organs!  you can still find choke cherries here this time of year, they are at their peak of deliciousness! plus roots are good right now, over wintered makes them a bit yummier......if my brain/adrenals are ever stable enough i would  probably do longer stints of %100meat(there has to be a better term then zerocarb!) perhaps as i heal and as the seasons/situations allow, but wouldnt betray my mental stability or physical health at this point

i am not really married to this argument,  i just like discussing for discussion sake, helps me to learn and strengthen ideas! but wanted to repeat and agree with the idea that there is no ideal diet for everyone and to follow anyone elses guidance and not listen to ones own body is just as detrimental mentally and only slightly less physically as forcing a big mac (with all three buns and special sauce) on ones self!!!!!!!!!!still think nature and experience is the best teacher

(just making the lols, not saying you are a guru follower...all love:), wish there was a bear hug smilie )

[William]

there has to be a better term then zerocarb

Yes, there should be. Something like variously dried aged raw fatty meat with <6% raw carb.