How bad do you think it is to freeze meat?

[PaleoPhil]

Yes, most of my food comes from my region (New England), and I don't buy any off the Internet right now, so it's never frozen unless I freeze it. I guess I currently freeze about 1/4 to 1/3 of my meat.

[PaleoPhil]

Frozen meats are not of great in taste and not healthy. Fresh is best.

For you perhaps, but I enjoy frozen or aged better than fresh myself, and didn't expect this in either case. Have you tried frozen or aged meat?

[TylerDurden]

The Nenets example applied to the question and the answer based on their example of eating raw meat frozen for centuries is clearly no, eating the meat frozen instead of fresh or thawed is apparently not dangerous as entire societies have done it for centuries and probably many millennia.

 That same argument has been wrongly used to claim that HGs are healthy because they'd been eating cooked meats for millenia. Neither logical or correct. If something is harmful but not fatal, a group can continue such an unhealthy practice for millenia.

Freezing does nowhere near as much damage as cooking but it does lower nutrient_levels, especially after thawing. The taste of prefrozen meats isn't as good as the nonfrozen kind. Plus, i've heard an (unsubstantiated) claim that enzymes in frozen meats get slightly denatured and eventually destroyed after very long-term storage.

All that said,  I have come across a very few mentions, here and there, of people complaining of nasty reactions to pefrozen (grassfed) meats.

[PaleoPhil]

Simply because one can imagine a risk does not mean there is a significant and substantial risk. Just as you are skeptical of lethal risk from eating raw foods, so I am skeptical of it from freezing foods. One could make the same negative arguments about fermented/high meats/seafood as about freezing, since they both involve cell breakdown, etc. Lex's posts addressing concerns about freezing meats seem reasonable and reassuring.

Plus, i've heard an (unsubstantiated) claim ...

Surely you know better than to rely on unsubstantiated and unexplained rumors. They can inspire us to investigate them, but we shouldn't make any judgements based on them. I consider the theoretical risk and potential likely severity small enough to take a calculated risk in eating frozen meats.

If you don't want to eat any frozen meats, you can consider Lex and I your guinea pigs, although I eat mostly never-frozen meats. If I have any problems from eating formerly or currently frozen meats I'll report them.

[TylerDurden]

Simply because one can imagine a risk does not mean there is a significant and substantial risk. Just as you are skeptical of lethal risk from eating raw foods, so I am skeptical of it from freezing foods. One could make the same negative arguments about fermented/high meats/seafood as about freezing, since they both involve cell breakdown, etc. Lex's posts addressing concerns about freezing meats seem reasonable and reassuring.
Surely you know better than to rely on unsubstantiated and unexplained rumors. They can inspire us to investigate them, but we shouldn't make any judgements based on them. I consider the theoretical risk and potential likely severity small enough to take a calculated risk in eating frozen meats.

If you don't want to eat any frozen meats, you can consider Lex and I your guinea pigs, although I eat mostly never-frozen meats. If I have any problems from eating formerly or currently frozen meats I'll report them.

  You're missing the point. I did not state that there was a fatal risk involved in eating prefrozen meats, I merely stated that it was a fact that a few people on RVAF diets have experienced definite negative reactions to prefrozen grassfed meats in a similiar way that a few others get nasty reactions to raw grainfed meats. The fact that others have no problems with it is neither here nor there, and doesn't invalidate the experience of the few.

As for the claim I mentioned, it does have some merit. Granted, info on the effects of freezing is rather low on the ground, but it is well-known  that freezing does denature enzymes to a small extent, in the short-term, so the claim isn't totally unlikely. For my own part, I find long-frozen foods to be less palatable than those frozen for short periods, so I suspect there my be some truth to this re various changes made between short- and long-term storage in the freezer.

[PaleoPhil]

 You're missing the point. I did not state that there was a fatal risk
  involved in eating prefrozen meats,

I didn't say you did. I said risk of severe or even lethal effects appeared to be implied in the original statement by someone else that I had originally responded to. Again, if the risk is not serious and there is little evidence, then I'm not particularly concerned. You're free to be concerned about the reported experiences of a few if you wish. You can think of Lex and me as guinea pigs. If you're concerns are on target then you may get to watch us whither away.

freezing does denature enzymes to a small extent, in the short-term, so the claim isn't totally unlikely.

Does rotting meat also denature enzymes to any extent, such as suggested with sausages (fermented meats/fish) below?

"The hardness of sausage is a measure of the degree of maturation, resulting from gelation of denatured meat proteins, and the loss of water (Gimeno, Astiasaran, & Bello, 1999). However, loss of water did not occur with the present experimental system indicating that hardness changes were due only to gelation." Development of Model Fermented Fish Sausage from New Zealand Marine Species: Textural properties of FFM during fermentation http://aut.researchgateway.ac.nz/bitstream/10292/807/3/KhemS.pdf

[raw meat man]

Why does meat preserve in the freezer or fridge?? WHY? THE FREEZING KILLS ENZYME ACTIVITY!! you may as well be eating a steak at the local bbq!

I keep my meat in the pantry in the dark. The enzymes in the meat are a lot stronger and healthier in that environment.

Frozen meat or cooled meat is cooked meat in my experience. You can feel it in your stomach as it doesnt digest so well.

[van]

are you getting your meat before it's been refridgerated, as do butchers and slaughter houses do?

[RawZi]

are you getting your meat before it's been refridgerated, as do butchers and slaughter houses do?

    Van, good question you posted in response.  He/it/she is a troll though and vegan apparently.

    I made high meat in a clay pot un-refrigerated.  It came out different and good, but no way I could keep it out that way more than a week.   

[sven]

I am currently sitting here eating thawed grassfed beef pancreas(sweetbreads).  2 pounds to be exact. I wasn't going to eat all of this but I accidentally thawed it all so I'm gonna spend the next 2 hours eating it.  Been an hour since I've started eating it, I feel fine.  If I have any problems you can bet your ass I'll report them here immediately.

[kurite]

Thanks, is all the meat you eat frozen then thawed?

[sven]

I'm in the same situation as you.  I can get fresh muscle meats(grassfed) but only frozen organs.  Frozen liver, heart, pancreas, and I just recently ordered 40 lbs of suet(dont know what the hell I'm going to do with all that yet lol). My butcher provides all of this.  It's worked out great so far.  I really wouldn't worry if I were you about eating thawed organs.  Of course get them fresh when you can but from my experience and the posts of everyone on here eating frozen thawed meat is just not that big of a deal.

[PaleoPhil]

Why does meat preserve in the freezer or fridge?? WHY? THE FREEZING KILLS ENZYME ACTIVITY!!....

So now we have criticisms of freezing meat on the one hand because it does denature the meat, like enzymes and high-meat fermenting do, and on the other hand because it does not allow denaturing via enzyme activity. They contradict, so they can't both be valid criticisms. I suspect that freezing denatures the proteins in meats less than cooking and that all denaturing is not completely evil in itself. The problem seems to be more with cooking than with freezing or fermenting, else we would expect traditional Arctic peoples to have suffered protein deficiencies and other health problems that SAD dieters experience.

Frozen meat or cooled meat is cooked meat in my experience. You can feel it in your stomach as it doesnt digest so well.

Lex and I and others here haven't noticed any stomach problems from eating frozen meats. No one's claiming that it's equally as good as fresh meats or fermented meats made from fresh meats, but not everyone can get only fresh meats, fats, organs and seafood. Sometimes frozen meats are an acceptable option. Freezing appears to be more problematic with plant foods, as they appear to lose their taste and nutrients more rapidly when frozen and salt and other crap is often added, but I think even certain frozen plant foods may be OK in limited amounts--mainly frozen berries that have nothing added.

[kurite]

Also how many of you eat frozen meats?

[Paleo Donk]

I've been eating only frozen meats for the last couple months. I would much prefer to get them fresh but this might not even be possible now and if it is would take up a very significant proportion of my time. Ideally in the future, I would buy a whole cow fresh(or possibly start hunting) and let it sit up in a large fridge taking from it what I need.

So, I am concerned about the quality of frozen meats and have read about nutrient loss but I don't think I have another option, especially now. Lex has had great results with frozen meat for 4+ years so there is at least one data point

[miles]

A whole cow, would that last you ~6 months if it stayed fresh?

[sven]

seems that thawing enzymes activates their activity again, and slows or speeds up the rate depending on the organ.  Enough info for me to keep eating frozen thawed meat and organs


Freeze-Thaw Effects on Metabolic Enzymes in Wood Frog Organs*1

Kyra J. Cowan1 and Kenneth B. Storey2
Institute of Biochemistry and Department of Chemistry, Carleton University, 1125 Colonel By Drive, Ottawa, Ontario, Canada, K1S 5B6
Received 4 May 2001;  accepted 6 September 2001. ; Available online 5 March 2002.
Abstract
To determine whether episodes of natural freezing and thawing altered the metabolic makeup of wood frog (Rana sylvatica) organs, the maximal activities of 28 enzymes of intermediary metabolism were assessed in six organs (brain, heart, kidney, liver, skeletal muscle, gut) of control (5°C acclimated), frozen (24 h at ?3°C), and thawed (24 h back at 5°C) frogs. The enzymes assessed represented pathways including glycolysis, gluconeo-genesis, amino acid metabolism, fatty acid metabolism, the TCA cycle, and adenylate metabolism. Organ-specific responses seen included (a) the number of enzymes affected by freeze-thaw (1 in gut ranging to 17 in heart), (b) the magnitude and direction of response (most often enzyme activities decreased during freezing and rebounded with thawing but, liver showed freeze-specific increases in several enzymes), and (c) the response to freezing versus thawing (enzyme activities in gut and kidney changed during freezing, whereas most enzymes in skeletal muscle responded to thawing). Overall, the data show that freeze-thaw implements selected changes to the maximal activities of various enzymes of intermediary metabolism and that these may aid organ-specific responses that alter fuel use during freeze-thaw, support cryoprotectant metabolism, and aid organ endurance of freeze-induced ischemia.


http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6WD5-458W29T-H&_user=10&_coverDate=08/31/2001&_rdoc=1&_fmt=high&_orig=search&_sort=d&_docanchor=&view=c&_searchStrId=1244245024&_rerunOrigin=google&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=502c3975efd994d926b1561cf9798ebb

[kurite]

thanks great info

[sven]

OK MY LAST POST COULD BE MISLEADING!!!!

I just found out that you can freeze frogs then defrost them and they would still be alive!!  So they don't actually die when they are frozen unless its realllly cold. 

So unless you're eating frozen frogs then please discard the information I last posted!
 

[djr_81]

I just found out that you can freeze frogs then defrost them and they would still be alive!!  So they don't actually die when they are frozen unless its realllly cold. 

Some of them. It depends on the type of frog and the severity of the weather as to if they'll survive. For example Wood Frogs from the arctic have a high percentage of themselves that can freeze before death. If I'm not mistaken they have a large amount of glycogen (or glycerol?) which helps to keep them from bursting internally as things freeze.
FWIW most frogs burrow into the mud at the bottom of a body of water with enough water over them so they don't freeze or they burrow into leaves, dirt, or under bark. The frogs that can withstand true freezing are few and far between and are adaptations to extreme temperatures.

[dsohei]

i dont think freezing/cooling foods kills their enzymes, but i think it does slow down the ripening/rotting process. i suppose there is more of a concern with freezing due to freezer burn and ice formation, but my frozen meat is pre-sealed in vacuum packs.
come to think of it, i probably don't even need to freeze vac-packed meat, do i?