Allergic to cooked green and red VEGETABLES?

[goodsamaritan]

Aajonus Vonderplanitz in his book says that some diseases, for example Tuberculosis is caused by the eating of cooked green and cooked red vegetables.  Basically, these sick people are allergic to cooked vegetables.  Aajonus says eat your green and red vegetables raw.

Can you relate your experience, observation, opinion on cooked vegetables?

[SkinnyDevil]

A.V. is a pretty smart fellow most times, but the notion that tuberculosis is caused by the eating of cooked veggies of any color seems, on the surface, absurd.

By what mechanism does it cause tuberculosis and by what mechanism do people who consume cooked veggies NOT contract TB?

[goodsamaritan]

Aajonus said:

TUBERCULOSIS is a severe detoxification of very volatile toxins that are hormone-related and discharged from the lungs. These toxins may affect other glands, organs and tissues as the toxins travel through the blood. The volatile toxins are mainly formed from cooked green foods in people who lack enzyme-mutations for eating cooked greens, including smoking tobacco or herbs. See If I Lack Enzyme-Mutations, What Foods Should I Avoid?, page 174.

Avoiding cooked greens, plus eating plenty of raw green salads, and plenty of hearty foods (like pasta with raw fat and raw beef, or raw beef sandwiches) has strengthened and healed tubercular sufferers without permanent damage and without medication.

[SkinnyDevil]

A.J. is wrong.

Tuberculosis is an infectious disease. The prime agent is mycobacterium tuberculosis. It is not a natural bodily response to eating cooked foods.

Whether the body is able to fight off this mycobacteria or not is another question.

I have confidence that the human body can, when healthy, fight off most diseases. However, I am fully aware that such is my opinion and is not a fact.

If there is evidence that TB can be cured by eating raw meat & veggies, please provide citations. Otherwise, it is just hearsay and anecdotes.

[KD]

I haven't read either book cover to cover, does he really say raw meat sandwiches and pasta? If so, i'm pretty sure he does not still promote this as an optimal way to heal disease. I've heard he still does in fact recommend some cooked starch in some instances but is otherwise promoting 100% raw for many people. I dunno, this seems odd. Is this the exact quote from that same above passage?

SD I think many folks other than AV seem to share this concept that there is no infectious diseases.

Like you I have my doubts.

I know I was diagnosed with TB years ago (or at least had a positive PPD test for TB, which I guess medically is not even seen as conclusive). I used to get terrible symptoms like described by the disease. It seemed to clear up just giving up the modern foods and eating quite a ton of unprocessed or lightly processed veg foods actually. usually AV doesn't recommend any fiber-filled veg foods except in extreme moderation, so even though I know he attributes more than TB to cooked veg and oils, I don't think his solution is eating more raw plants except in juices or specific fruits in healing.



disease aside, I think the answer to vegetables is somewhere between the hardcore WAPF and other traditional proponents that believe most vegetation needs to be cooked to be digested, and the idea that all cooking will create some kind of harmful bi-products.

Many vegetables are just too starchy or compact to glean much benefit eating raw, they might not be necessary in a RAF diet, but its possible they provide nutrients that can create superior health.

for me adding vegetables to my diet would mean some cooked and some raw with the impression that cooked veg can really only be the straw the breaks the camels back when it comes to serious ailments.

[RawZi]

    I don't know that I'm allergic to vegetables or had tuberculosis, so this will be just hearsay or an anecdote. 

    After about a year of doing 100% raw primal diet AV's way, I ate a meal with an elderly relative, eating what they suggested.  They prided themselves on health food.  We ate sweet potato, garlic, sauteed onion, broccoli and many other types of vegetables all cooked in a dish.  I had not been through any detoxes due to PD yet.  I think this has something to do with that I was severely autoimmune, so PD just alleviated my symptoms and nourished me.  Anyway, right after eating this meal, about a couple hours later, I got some respiratory ailment.  It's duration was over a month, every day, day and night, copious amounts of mucus kept coming to my throat from my lungs, and more and more mucus kept coming out my nose and throat during that time.  I had not been mucusy at all before this.

[SkinnyDevil]

For the record....

1) I am not opposed to either hearsay or anacdote. But it is crucial that we don't share anecdote, hearsay, and opinion as FACT.

2) FACTS are often discovered AFTER hearsay, anecdote, & opinion. Scientific discovery depends upon loads of opinion & anecdote in order to know where to look.

3) Those who disbelieve the germ theory of medicine are throwing out the baby with the bath-water. It is not rational to assert that there are no infectious diseases or that germs do not cause illness. The fact is that germs can and often do cause problems. Whether this is because most humans (due to lifestyle choices) walk about with compromised immune systems may well be a valid opinion (one I share), but it is another discussion.

4) To Rawzi's example - this is perfectly valid. However, it must be noted that there are dozens of respiratory issues. Becoming mucous-y after a meal is not the same as TB. Could be any number of other things.

I am not arguing that cooked veggies do not contain certain detrimental contaminates. I am arguing that those contaminates do not cause TB.

[TylerDurden]

I reckon SD is right, this is just a crazy Aajonism. I admit that several of AV's claims  which seemed ridiculous to me when I first started have been vindicated and proven right(such as the "high-meat" claims). But AV's other notions such as this theory  and that silly b*ll about CIA agents supposedly injecting people with vaccines, are too far-out to be believed.

While I do not remotely  believe in TB being caused by allergies to cooked plant foods, I am sure that an allergy towards absolutely all cooked plant foods could easily come about. After all, pre-RPD diet, I had developed severe food-intolerances towards any cooked animal food whatsoever.

[KD]

probably for another topic, but I think what he says about viruses being kind of like computer programs that create soaps and solvents makes alot of sense to me. The virus itself is a completely non-living thing and therefore cannot transfer to another person. What I don't get is that I know he also largely believes bacteria and even parasites interact and clear away debris in a similar fashion, he acknowledges that some bacteria (improper high meat, from poorly fed animals, frozen animals, animals that have had vaccines etc..)  are not good. If one can culture up a bunch of bacteria into a very small amount that could be harmful, how is it that saliva and sexual fluid or doorknobs can't transport bacteria that can reproduce, or just contain plain toxic crap like the cooked foods and such he claims cause illness in the first place? Obviously people that work with bacteria in laboratories are not currently at risk from cooked food toxins but take alot of apt precautions. I know he says something like injection of blood is the only way to get certain things into the tissue, but that doesn't jive with me with all the toxins supposedly coming in through the air/food etc...Also even natural things (like mushrooms) can be very toxic and cause symptoms or death.

[RawZi]

4) To Rawzi's example - this is perfectly valid. However, it must be noted that there are dozens of respiratory issues. Becoming mucous-y after a meal is not the same as TB. Could be any number of other things.

I am not arguing that cooked veggies do not contain certain detrimental contaminates.

    I'm open to what anyone has to say why five weeks of copious mucus might come from one normal size meal one day of cooked vegetables after a year of only raw and feeling well.  There were many different vegetables cut small, I think there was celery too, mushrooms ... the sauteing medium was olive oil. It wasn't burnt.  I had been green juicing daily all year, but not that day.  I don't think I lost any weight from the illness/detox.  I continued on PD after the (infamous) meal.  Who knows?  Maybe my relative was a carrier, and passed me some germs in the food.  I don't catch colds/infections when I'm eating raw.

[michaelwh]

...including smoking tobacco or herbs...

This part makes a lot of sense to me. Tuberculosis was around much longer than modern industrial toxins. And it occurs very rarely in wild animals. So it has to be primarily caused by something that humans have been doing for thousands of years. Cooking, burning fires, and smoking are the obvious candidates. (In particular, the last two, since they directly damage lungs).

A.J. is wrong.

I reckon SD is right, this is just a crazy Aajonism.

I don't know how Aajonus came to the conclusion that cooked green vegetables are involved. But instead of outright dismissing him, maybe someone should e-mail him and ask how he came up with this. He leaves out a lot of detail in his books, and when someone asks politely, he will usually give more details.

Every winter, I get a horrible cough. In the past, I took some kind of toxic syrups or cough drops or other medications to suppress it. Last year, I took no medication at all, and no supplements or herbs or teas or vitamins. Just raw food. Lots of eggs. It lasted a few months. This year, it started about 1.5 months ago, and will probably last another couple of months. Some family members were begging me to see a doctor "in case it's TB or whooping cough or something dangerous". But I have no intention of going to a doctor. I just let it run its course. When I was a kid, I was exposed to lots of campfire smoke every summer. My lungs must be in awful condition.

[TylerDurden]

I used to be a fervent believer in AV's notion re germs until I got flu  after 4 years on RPD. This was not a case of detox as the symptoms were full-blown and I had got it from my brother. So, while I am sure a raw diet does help considerably against disease, I am understandably somewht sceptical that it gives us immunity to germs.

[goodsamaritan]

I used to be a fervent believer in AV's notion re germs until I got flu  after 4 years on RPD. This ws not a case of detox as the symptoms were full-blown and I had got it from my brother. So, while I am sure a raw diet does help considerably against disease, I am understandably somewht sceptical that it gives us immunity to germs.

Hmmm... I haven't gotten sick yet of any communicable germs yet lately and I'm only almost 3 years into RPD, I'll have to wait and see if germs are gonna get me in the future.

[michaelwh]

I used to be a fervent believer in AV's notion re germs until I got flu  after 4 years on RPD. This ws not a case of detox as the symptoms were full-blown and I had got it from my brother. So, while I am sure a raw diet does help considerably against disease, I am understandably somewht sceptical that it gives us immunity to germs.

AV's ideas about germs can be separated into 2 parts:

1. "Infectious" diseases are detoxifications, and if you let the disease run its course, the long-term result is better health, provided that you are on a good diet, and have enough body fat. If you are on a bad diet, or don't have enough fat, then the disease may end up killing you.

2. "Infectious" diseases are not contagious.

First of all, I think that it's a bit simplistic to make such sweeping generalized statements about ALL diseases. Most of the people who turn to AV for help have some serious disease, and conventional medicine has failed them. They don't want to learn and discuss complicated theories of disease. They just want a way of living and thinking that will heal them. I think that (1) and (2) serve this purpose very well, even if they're not completely true.

I think that there's a lot of truth in (1), but I disagree with (2).

If someone has the flu (detoxification of lungs), then they will cough out viral particles. When another person inhales these, and that person has damaged lungs, then they will also get the flu. In modern society, everybody is always breathing in car exhaust, second-hand cigarette smoke, and other poisons. Everybody's lungs are damaged to some degree, so that's why in the winter, flu spreads like wildfire.

[SkinnyDevil]

Tuberculosis was around much longer than modern industrial toxins. And it occurs very rarely in wild animals. So it has to be primarily caused by something that humans have been doing for thousands of years. Cooking, burning fires, and smoking are the obvious candidates. (In particular, the last two, since they directly damage lungs).

I don't know how Aajonus came to the conclusion that cooked green vegetables are involved. But instead of outright dismissing him, maybe someone should e-mail him and ask how he came up with this.

You are mis-using the term "cause".

We already know what causes TB. It's called mycobacterium tuberculosis. That some immune systems are capable of fighting & killing it (or, instead, succumbing to it) is a function of the vitality of a given immune system.

AV did not say "cooked green vegetables are involved". He said cooked veggies cause TB. That is a claim I can easily dismiss. As to cooked foods, or veggies, or cooked veggies being involved - well, that is another matter. We already know that many things (including cooking food - especially when one burns it) can compromise an immune system, so that cooking is possible involved is not an assertion with which I dispute.

AV is a bright guy and certainly a ground-breaker, but he needs to be careful of how he uses words like "cause".

[michaelwh]

You are mis-using the term "cause".

We already know what causes TB. It's called mycobacterium tuberculosis. That some immune systems are capable of fighting & killing it (or, instead, succumbing to it) is a function of the vitality of a given immune system.

AV did not say "cooked green vegetables are involved". He said cooked veggies cause TB. That is a claim I can easily dismiss. As to cooked foods, or veggies, or cooked veggies being involved - well, that is another matter. We already know that many things (including cooking food - especially when one burns it) can compromise an immune system, so that cooking is possible involved is not an assertion with which I dispute.

AV is a bright guy and certainly a ground-breaker, but he needs to be careful of how he uses words like "cause".

It is very rare for a disease to have only one cause. There are usually multiple causes. What one considers to be the primary cause is often a matter of philosophy. The philosophy of conventional medicine, is to blame infectious diseases on microbes/viruses, and degenerative diseases on genetics. The philosophy of naturopathic medicine, is to blame all diseases on toxins, diet, and lifestyle.

For example, T2 diabetes is caused by genetics, diet, and lifstyle. Conventional medicine considers genetics to be the primary cause, and spends billions of dollars on genetics research to find "diabetes genes", while dismissing the dietary component. When a conventional doctor diagnoses someone with diabetes, he might say "you got diabetes because of your genes -- your father had it, your grandfather had it, etc" without saying anything about diet or lifestyle. A naturopath, on the other hand, will tell someone to cut out sugary and starchy food, and not say anything about genetics.


Now, back to tuberculosis. We should be careful to distinguish between facts/observations, and explanations of these facts.

The facts are:

A. If we clinically examine patients with symptoms that we call "tuberculosis", we find damaged lung tissue, and a certain kind of bacterium in that tissue, which we call "mycobacterium tuberculosis".

B. Most mycobacterium tuberculosis infections in humans result in an asymptomatic, latent infection, and about one in ten latent infections eventually progresses to active disease.


Fact (B) implies that mycobacterium tuberculosis, in and of itself, does not cause tuberculosis.


There are two possible explanations/theories/philosophies:

1. The bacteria was floating around in the air, and the person breathed it in. The immune system wasn't able to fight it off, so the bacteria started multiplying, established itself in the lungs, started damaging the tissue, and the person became sick. In a nutshell, the bacteria is the primary cause, and environmental toxins don't play a big role.

2. The person was exposed to toxic substances (cigarette smoke, car exhaust, asbestos, etc.) which damaged the lungs. Some time later, when the body had enough strength and nutrient reserves, it decided to detoxify this damage. It created and/or activated "mycobacterium tuberculosis" to consume the damaged tissue. In a nutshell, the toxin caused the problem, and the body used bacteria as a tool to solve the problem.

(1) is the Koch-Pasteur theory, which has been adopted by modern medicine.

(2) is AV's theory, whose origins go back to Bechamp.

[SkinnyDevil]

My apologies...I let my end of the conversation slip. Forgot to get back to this.

My quick response (I'll have more time next week to give it the attention it is due) is that AV, in this case, wants his cake & to eat it, too.

He claims that TB is not caused by germs, but then claims that salmonella is caused by germs (and is nature's cancer cure).

If he doesn't subscribe to the germ theory, then that punches a HUGE whole in the latter claim. In fact, it dictates that, logically, he cannot support the second claim. But if he does, then the fact is he DOES believe in the germ theory (which refutes the first claim).

Quite the contradiction there.